Votes Secrecy - Removal of Serial Numbers.
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Right!Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:It eliminates the use of serial numbers and uses the citizens own IC numbers instead. Since the databases already have such details, why not use it?
In any case, all who can vote will be in the database. On voting day, they have to register themselves. So if they try anything funny (such as counterfeiting, trying to vote more than one time), the databases results would show that have voted.
Impersonating is also impossible, since it is tied to the IC number. Unless somebody's IC is stolen (and must be the correct one, given that not all citizens could vote).
Also, nobody from the government or any of the political parties should be handling it. An independent company will be handling the whole process.
The voting card will also not bear any details except who they vote for. No IC, no name, no anything. -
But if 4 million singaporeans are voting, are they really going to tabulate who vote for who?
It is witnessed by the different opposition parties too that the ballots are burned after the votes are counted. How will PAP be able to tell who voted for who? Would they even be interested in who you vote for, when you are just a tiny nobody on this elitist country? -
If the govt is not interested to check who vote for whom,then why wouldn't it improve the voting system so that there is no way for anyone to trace a voting paper is casted by whom?Originally posted by eagle:But if 4 million singaporeans are voting, are they really going to tabulate who vote for who?
It is witnessed by the different opposition parties too that the ballots are burned after the votes are counted. How will PAP be able to tell who voted for who? Would they even be interested in who you vote for, when you are just a tiny nobody on this elitist country? -
The problem is we don't want anybody to know who casted the votes to who. And that's what the PAP is very interested in.Originally posted by eagle:But if 4 million singaporeans are voting, are they really going to tabulate who vote for who?
It is witnessed by the different opposition parties too that the ballots are burned after the votes are counted. How will PAP be able to tell who voted for who? Would they even be interested in who you vote for, when you are just a tiny nobody on this elitist country?
Who cares if they burn? It's traceable, through the serial numbers on voting day. -
Even if serial nos. are removed, do you think PAP cannot trace your FINGERPRINTS on the ballot paper if they have the ability? Unless you want to wear gloves to vote??Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:http://www.elections.gov.sg/secrecy.htm
The reasoning might be sufficient for some, however I beg to differ. Given the possibility of voterÂ’s identity being revealed, those within the Government sector cannot help but worry about the possible detrimental impact of their decision. The reasoning provided shows plain laziness on the part of the organizing electoral committee.
If the concern on hand is the counterfeiting of ballot papers, I would suggest that the ballot paper be contained within a sealed foil, only to be opened in full view of the conducting officer. The serial number would be printed on the foil. I agree that these would increase the manpower involved as well as the cost to carry out a single election, but try telling me that it is a bad attempt to ease the psychological concern of the voters regarding the secrecy of their votes.
But given the reputation of our present government who would stoop to all possible levels to gain the upper-hand for their electoral campaign, I doubt this or other suggestions would be even considered, let alone implemented. -
Besides, they may have installed CCTV in the venues.Originally posted by hawkeye1819:Even if serial nos. are removed, do you think PAP cannot trace your FINGERPRINTS on the ballot paper if they have the ability? Unless you want to wear gloves to vote??
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Still hoping and praying that soon the serial number will be removed...
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With all your ideas comming up for a new system to present the voting slip without serial nos., don't it occur to you that what ever the system, there is always someone thinking how to beat the system also.
Voting should be done once off. There should not be any re-voting, due to ballot stuffing, or possible counterfeiting or other irregularities.
Imagine the constituents having to cast their ballots again and again, because of challenges to the integrity of the ballots slips.
Printing ballots slips that are counterfeit proof could help, but then the officials at the polling stations are human from somewhere, whats there to stop them from flicking some unused ballot. See, whatever is thought of, there is always something to counter it.
I don't think we can come up with a system that pleases all.
We have to be satisfied with a system that satisfys most.
And this most includes some of the opposition.
A fool-proof system, only fool fools.
Most people are smart.
And there's always someone smarter. -
This can be solved by using a serial number vote with a stub. The unsed votes have to be accounted for with their serial numbers. I think there are lots of research on how to prevent ballot stuffing while protecting secrecy on the internet. Maybe someone should compile the options and present it as an alternative and lobby for the change.Originally posted by mancha:Printing ballots slips that are counterfeit proof could help, but then the officials at the polling stations are human from somewhere, whats there to stop them from flicking some unused ballot. See, whatever is thought of, there is always something to counter it.
taken from, vote.nist.gov/threats/papers/ChainVoting.pdf
Ballot Distribution Security:
Strictly account for all ballots printed, with the requirement that all ballots not packaged for delivery to the polling place be destroyed. Multiple witnesses must be present at every stage of ballot processing to assure that no ballots escape. When the polls open, election workers must verify that the inventory of ballots delivered matches the manifest for the polling place.
Absentee Ballots:
Mark absentee ballots distinctly to distinguish them from ballots voted at the polling place.
Prevent Ballot Counterfeiting:
Use special inks and papers to deter counterfeiters.
Serial Number Ballots:
Each ballot should have a unique serial number printed on a tear-off stub. When the voter signs in to vote, this serial number should be recorded. When the voter returns his or her ballot to be deposited in the ballot box, this number should be checked to verify that the voter is voting the same ballot they were issued. If the stub is already torn from the ballot or if the stub number is wrong, the voter should be subject to investigation and possible arrest. To protect voter privacy, the ballot should be contained in a privacy folder that exposes only the ballot stub and serial number, and the stub should be removed before the ballot is slid from the privacy folder into the ballot box. Alternatively, using serial numbered ballots: Note the time of issue of each serial numbered ballot, without noting the identity of the voter to whom that ballot was issued, and use this to enforce time limits on how long a voter may take to vote a ballot.
other useful links include
www.nyvv.org/doc/TearOffBallotStubs.pdf -
If I tell you that one day you will grow old and die, would you end up doing nothing because ultimately you will still die?Originally posted by mancha:With all your ideas comming up for a new system to present the voting slip without serial nos., don't it occur to you that what ever the system, there is always someone thinking how to beat the system also.
Voting should be done once off. There should not be any re-voting, due to ballot stuffing, or possible counterfeiting or other irregularities.
Imagine the constituents having to cast their ballots again and again, because of challenges to the integrity of the ballots slips.
Printing ballots slips that are counterfeit proof could help, but then the officials at the polling stations are human from somewhere, whats there to stop them from flicking some unused ballot. See, whatever is thought of, there is always something to counter it.
I don't think we can come up with a system that pleases all.
We have to be satisfied with a system that satisfys most.
And this most includes some of the opposition.
A fool-proof system, only fool fools.
Most people are smart.
And there's always someone smarter.
I noticed you used the word "includes some of the opposition", for your information, the opposition has been fighting for the removal of the serial numbers for some time.
So whose interest are we talking about here? -
So you think the government keeps a record of how you voted at the last election? Haha...good...good...so all those voters in Potong Pasir and Hougang better watch out...they are going lose their jobs and university places soon
Do you still dare to support the Opposition?
This kind of paranoia is very good for the ruling party indeed... -
Yes it is a kind of paranoia that is indeed very good for the ruling party. And it is something they would not wish to see changed.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:So you think the government keeps a record of how you voted at the last election? Haha...good...good...so all those voters in Potong Pasir and Hougang better watch out...they are going lose their jobs and university places soon
Do you still dare to support the Opposition?
This kind of paranoia is very good for the ruling party indeed...
Thank you for agreeing with me. Your participation in this thread is most appreciated. -
If I am jogging regularly, and you tell me I would still grow and die, therefore I should change to yoga, and not tire myself out, I would acknowledge your suggestionOriginally posted by bigmouthjoe:If I tell you that one day you will grow old and die, would you end up doing nothing because ultimately you will still die?
I noticed you used the word "includes some of the opposition", for your information, the opposition has been fighting for the removal of the serial numbers for some time.
So whose interest are we talking about here?
, but I would still continue as I am.
JBJ at Yio Chu Kang Stadium, where he held up that famous police report, did urge the crowd during his speeches to vote confidently, as their vote is secret.
LTK in the recent GE, also extolled the same.
They have accepted the system.
This serial number thing crops at every GE without fail. Its always remove the serial numbers, why need there be a serial number, it can be traced, etc ad nausem. This topic is election fodder for them.
And the reply GE after GE: Your vote is secret. There are stringent checks in place. The system has not failed. And one more minor fact. Those who spoils the ballot slip with obscenities, or deface the ballots in protest will be dealth with under the law. Voting is serious, you cast your vote, or return a blank vote, and nothing else.
What's there to stop the supporters of a weak party that haven't a prayer of winning from exercising their artistic talents on the ballots slips.
Serial Numbers! -
Fact is fact, paranoia behavior is another issue. Unless proven that their votes will indeed have no impact on their private life, the commoners are still going to go about their usual practices and believing what they hear from others.Originally posted by mancha:If I am jogging regularly, and you tell me I would still grow and die, therefore I should change to yoga, and not tire myself out, I would acknowledge your suggestion , but I would still continue as I am.
JBJ at Yio Chu Kang Stadium, where he held up that famous police report, did urge the crowd during his speeches to vote confidently, as their vote is secret.
LTK in the recent GE, also extolled the same.
They have accepted the system.
This serial number thing crops at every GE without fail. Its always remove the serial numbers, why need there be a serial number, it can be traced, etc ad nausem. This topic is election fodder for them.
And the reply GE after GE: Your vote is secret. There are stringent checks in place. The system has not failed. And one more minor fact. Those who spoils the ballot slip with obscenities, or deface the ballots in protest will be dealth with under the law. Voting is serious, you cast your vote, or return a blank vote, and nothing else.
What's there to stop the supporters of a weak party that haven't a prayer of winning from exercising their artistic talents on the ballots slips.
Serial Numbers!
Proving that their votes would be kept secret would be an uphill task. So why not implement the no serial number rule? Defacing the vote is serious, but how serious is it when compared to true democracy? -
Well, its like a nation having nuclear faclities. Then claiming that "No no, I didn't make a bomb and don't intend to. The facility is used for other purposes"
Sure, it might be the truth or it might not be, can't be proven beyond a resaonable doubt. But the nation's neighbours will not sleep as soundly, thats for sure.
Regardless of the truth with the serial numbers, the apprehension effect cannot be denied. In this case, in favour of the PAP, so they haven't been caught abusing the serial numbers, hence will not remove them.
If what PAP says about the ballot process is true, then the paranoia is a freebie. They don't seem to be making a whole lot of effort to remove this paranoia. -
So far, only the opposition can help request for the removal of the serials.
But I doubt it will be done.
why need serial number ?
Any other democratic country do this?
Having the serial number, can track back to identity?
Is voting a confidential affair? -
have you vote before or are you even old enough to vote.Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:http://www.elections.gov.sg/secrecy.htm
The reasoning might be sufficient for some, however I beg to differ. Given the possibility of voterÂ’s identity being revealed, those within the Government sector cannot help but worry about the possible detrimental impact of their decision. The reasoning provided shows plain laziness on the part of the organizing electoral committee.
If the concern on hand is the counterfeiting of ballot papers, I would suggest that the ballot paper be contained within a sealed foil, only to be opened in full view of the conducting officer. The serial number would be printed on the foil. I agree that these would increase the manpower involved as well as the cost to carry out a single election, but try telling me that it is a bad attempt to ease the psychological concern of the voters regarding the secrecy of their votes.
But given the reputation of our present government who would stoop to all possible levels to gain the upper-hand for their electoral campaign, I doubt this or other suggestions would be even considered, let alone implemented.
so far i never vote for pap no police come and catch me -
Some of the voters maybe have their decision swayed due to the fear of being identified and blacklisted, without the PAP having to do anything. Especially if you are in the public sector with a comfortable job, there simply to much to lose.Originally posted by crazy monkey:have you vote before or are you even old enough to vote.
so far i never vote for pap no police come and catch me -
I think you have a comprehension problem. Did you fail your english? I said there is an aura of uncertainty amongst those working in the government sector.Originally posted by crazy monkey:have you vote before or are you even old enough to vote.
so far i never vote for pap no police come and catch me
Sheesh your level of comprehension is atrocious!The reasoning might be sufficient for some, however I beg to differ. Given the possibility of voterÂ’s identity being revealed, those within the Government sector cannot help but worry about the possible detrimental impact of their decision. The reasoning provided shows plain laziness on the part of the organizing electoral committee.
And where did I mention the word police? Did you come up with that? Stop trying to put words into my mouth. Please come up with better one-liners. Yours sucks. -
Crazy Monkey, maybe you should just go back to school... instead of wasting your time to vote.
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My friends who did not vote for them told me the same.Originally posted by royston_ang:Some of the voters maybe have their decision swayed due to the fear of being identified and blacklisted, without the PAP having to do anything. Especially if you are in the public sector with a comfortable job, there simply to much to lose.
They have yet to kenna anything.
They are waiters and waitresses. They do low skilled jobs.
I agree that there is definitely a psychological effect.
My other neighbor works in the 'non-private' sector.
He wants to work and retire there. Not a bad job.
He also has a daughter studying and applied for scholarships.
What do you think? -
A ballot paper sample should look something like this. Party names and logos, nothing else. Voters just mark an X against their choice. It's that simple.
I did not vote, so don't know how Singapore's ballot paper looks like.
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you are you so afraid of those serial numbers. damn them
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Simple logic:
A teacher earning $5,000 a month with 2 mouths to feed and parents to give allowance to.....would he not vote PAP?
An SIA pilot earning $25,000 a month with a BMW and 3 storey terrace to pay off, would he not vote PAP?
An EDB executive, earning $7,000 a month after 5 years of hard work, would he give all that up?
Serial numbers deter naysayers in civil service from voting for opposition. Just check out the number of stat boards Singapore has and it wouldn't be difficult for PAP to have a '66.6%' every election. -
It's still too large a cost to sift through so many ballot papers to tell who vote for who. There are definitely many other cheaper and more efficient ways to tell...
I've nothing to say about the pyschological effect... Even if the serial number is not there, I'm pretty sure that those hold govt jobs will still be a unwilling to vote for the opposition because of their jobs...