The lack of social cohesion-whose fault is it
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I don't think I forget what I say about the definition of migration. I never ever mix up citizenship and migration . As for putting words in my mouth, you did not read properly and jumped straight into conclusions.Originally posted by sgdiehard:sigh....still concerned about right or wrong in argument for a definition, I am too old for that, especially on on a forum like this. If we meet face to face, I ask you for your IC, see whether you run or not.
Talking about the word "migration", it simply means the movement from one place to another place, it takes many different forms, from conquest, to cultural infiltration, to settlement, ...and refugee movement. A tick on an immigration form does not define the word in details. Modern understanding of the word migration means you move with the intention to settle. This differentiate the move from going on long holidays, overseas employment, .... you are not seasonal birds which would settle for good. Thousands of HKgers went to Canada, USA, Australia, and even HK to get a PR, a green card, in case things go bad in HK after 97, they have a back up, just likeyour parents. Most of them would not say they have migrated. Have your parents migrated? Those who actually migrated sold everything in HK, brought their family and settle in a foreign land.
It makes no sense to argue with you on definition. I don't put words into your mouth, you wrote a lot in this forum, apparently you forgot what you wrote.
I agree, the government is wrong not to take care of old folks, but thank God, my parents, who also participated in the building of Singapore, do not have to depend on the government for old age. I, together with my brother and sister will not allow any winter in my parents old age, though they have experienced winters in China, Korea, and Japan during holidays trip there. They don't like it there, and I will never allow them to have to travel with me to settle in a cold country, just to be with their grand children. Don't want to migrate for me is more than just patriotism. Yes, we still need to care for those old folks who are less fortunate, join opposition parties, participate in help organisations.....migrating to any other country can only talk, it does not help.
I said it in another post, I am not in biomed industry and I know nothing about that, so I cannot and won't expend on it. But from airport hub, ports....to high tech industries, since when were there no competitions, from any countries in the world, not just Australia. So? chicken out?
I have been retrenched before, during the difficult period of time, my wife supported me till I got another job again. Being positive enable us to live our life happily together, but of course, being prepared with savings, with extra skills, and even my friends in Singapore who help make it easy to have positive attitude. In anyway, will it help by being negative, does it make any diff if I sing a different tune? Be positive, there is no win or lose in this arguement, if you know how to be positive, it will benefit you a lot in the future, that is what I've learned.
Yes, I have bought a car for a song, because the owner was migrating, needws to dispose of it quickly. I am looking for more. Oh ya if the bubble burst, hmm....that is a very negative statement, I will be first to scavenge off those singaporeans who have to sell their properties cheap. Whats wrong with that? you will be lucky if you get some money back, if religious terrorists, or communists from PRC occupies Singapore, you would have nothing left.
another negative statement.
If I stay in Singapore, I will be struggling to support my own parents based on the type of shitty wages I will get and be increasingly unhappy. You have 2 other siblings. I have 1 and I am the only child of theirs working while she studies in Australia as a dependent. My father could have retired but international student fees are too expensive . I had to sponsor them to come over plus jump the queue - so my finances are already tied with the Australian govt bond so that my own sister got a way out as a dependent child of theirs, if she does not want to return to Singapore or cannot get a good job there . At least when they decide to come over, I just buy health insurance in Australia for their private health cover which is far cheaper than paying for some subsidised bed in a Singaporean hospital. Free healthcare is just my backup.
It is about basic survival and a better lifestyle where I know I will be happy. If I have to go overseas to have a comfortable survival , I will. I am not even talking about earning a million bucks - my version of comfortable is to have a paid off property before 35 years old and a job I actually like doing. Of course a million will be a bonus. If you can't get it in your head and want to continue hammering others, go ahead.
You make it sound so easy to migrate . Not many people can migrate. And not many can build from square one at all - new homeland, new friends ,new laws etc. Got friends who want to go out of Singapore - they can't. They are stuck. One of my friends my age and she cannot even afford to buy a HDB flat or even a car despite the fact that she has to work OT and six day weeks . If I stayed back , I will end up like her because I am no scholar and have no connections. -
And I don't even come from a poor family , just a middle class family. Their original plan was to invest first then if cannot survive on CPF , to sell off their assets and scrimp like hell to continue paying HDB maintenance and what's not to survive in Singapore independently. And my parents have multiple chronic illnesses, so sell off stuff one by one to pay for treatment ah? In no time, they will be broke.
So at least I come over to Australia. They can keep their assets and survive comfortably , go see the world and do whatever they want. If not enough, they know that I got a property they can live in so that they don't go homeless.
As for my sister , she at least gets a two doors open unlike friends of mine my age stuck in Singapore without a property to their name, with employers who don't support upgrading , with not very much to look forward to , just surviving day by day fearful of foreigners taking their jobs. I don't want it to happen to my sister as well. So if she is not happy in Singapore, she can join me overseas , earn her own money and buy her own place.
So you want to make it look like all Singaporeans are migrating just because they want to be rich and be ingrates.....no I migrated because I want a life for my own family which is comfortable and liveable. And the government in Singapore doesn't care - look at how well they pay themselves. No thanks.
don't piss me off with your self righteous " oh I stay in Singapore and you don't , so you are not patriotic" talk.
I tell people how to come to Australia, it is up to them if they want to plunge into Australia . If I can do it, anyone can do it with hardwork and preserverance - to chase their dreams in another country or to earn a comfortable lifestyle. If they get rich , bonus for them and I am happy for them too.
If they do well in Singapore, I am also happy for them also. -
Originally posted by fymk:
sorry if you feel I have hammered you.
I don't think I forget what I say about the definition of migration. I never ever mix up citizenship and migration . As for putting words in my mouth, you did not read properly and jumped straight into conclusions.
If I stay in Singapore, I will be struggling to support my own parents based on the type of wages I will get and be increasingly unhappy. You have 2 other siblings. I have 1 and I am the only child of theirs working while she studies in Australia as a dependent. My father could have retired but international student fees are too expensive . I had to sponsor them to come over plus jump the queue - so my finances are already tied with the Australian govt bond so that my own sister got a way out as well if she does not want to return to Singapore.
It is about basic survival and a better lifestyle where I know I will be happy. [b]If I have to go overseas to have a comfortable survival , I will. I am not even talking about earning a million bucks - my version of comfortable is to have a paid off property before 35 years old and a job I actually like doing. Of course a million will be a bonus. If you can't get it in your head and want to continue hammering others, go ahead.
You make it sound so easy to migrate . Not many people can migrate. And not many can build from square one at all - new homeland, new friends ,new laws etc. Got friends who want to go out of Singapore - they can't. They are stuck.
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I have been travelling like 70% of my time over the last 10 years to make a comfortable survival, also my wife had kept she job. I worked for MNC she works as enterpreneur, in case I kenna retrenched again. Even then, to have a paid off property before 35 was not easy to reach for a couple, let alone single, not in major cities in Asia, unless I am paid in S$ and buy properties overseas like KL.
The world has changed, no more business ethics, competition getting worse, more so in asian cities than in australia and america. Retrenchment is a matter of time. If you were not replaced by an FT, then by a Singaporean, much younger than you, the feeling is the same. We can vote the government out but there is nothing we can do to greedy MNC, it is not anybody's duty to help the poor old workers who had spent their life working for the company.
Migration is easy only for single, it is never easy for a family. It is a mean to avoid political problem, it is never a solution to the problem. Consider yourself luck if it works for you in anyway.
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The brain drains of talented citizens are by the hundreds of thousands.
The ministers are too self-centred to admit this was largely caused not by individual attitudes as mentioned by them like quitters or whiners but by their uncaring policies over the years which have resulted in our losses of economic competitiveness beside driving up costs of living forcing citizens to go for migration.
So it is untrue that citizens are ungrateful or fleet-footed. It is just that the government has failed to bring about the necessary conditions to facilitate growths and vibrancy and citizens' making of honest living.
The current recovery from last deep recessions is just a hype partly due to world recovery and partly a knee-jerked reaction to IR. Look at the real domestic economy other than a few monopolies and GLCs which dictate their own fees and prices, most businesses are in very bad shape struggling to pay rising rentals and all the double-charged lands and assets set by government to drive up its surpluses. -
I already paid off 70% of my loan for an Australian apartment. Not easy - I did alot of overtime on shifts nobody wants to do. I get honestly paid for my overtime. Plus most of my money came from working since I was 15 years old - parents knew how to invest - so I am lucky. Unlike most kids, my pocket money has been cut off since I was 15 years old earning my own money. Want internet? Pay for it with your own money . Want to talk alot of the phone? Get your own phoneline and pay for it with your own money . Not happy with the clothes we bought u? Pay for your own clothes. That is what my parents did to me and it did me alot of good.Originally posted by sgdiehard:sorry if you feel I have hammered you.
I have been travelling like 70% of my time over the last 10 years to make a comfortable survival, also my wife had kept she job. I worked for MNC she works as enterpreneur, in case I kenna retrenched again. Even then, to have a paid off property before 35 was not easy to reach for a couple, let alone single, not in major cities in Asia, unless I am paid in S$ and buy properties overseas like KL.
The world has changed, no more business ethics, competition getting worse, more so in asian cities than in australia and america. Retrenchment is a matter of time. If you were not replaced by an FT, then by a Singaporean, much younger than you, the feeling is the same. We can vote the government out but there is nothing we can do to greedy MNC, it is not anybody's duty to help the poor old workers who had spent their life working for the company.
Migration is easy only for single, it is never easy for a family. It is a mean to avoid political problem, it is never a solution to the problem. Consider yourself luck if it works for you in anyway.
The world changed but I see the Australians and Americans protecting their own who are in middle and top management. They are trying to keep their brain drain from going out. Singapore just gives out the middle to top management out like freebies to some deserving and some undeserving foreigners.
As for anyone's duty to help poor old workers out there....well I don't think it is the right of someone who is earning millions to tell that to all those old workers.
Migration is a solution to alot of people. Our ancestors were migrants , except for the Malays who were the indigenous population.
I can't say if it will work out or not. At the moment , I can still see the next 10 years in Australia as ok but in Singapore I can't ...it is day by day survival. -
Australia had only been good since these last few years, with the A$ going up to 1.3 against S$. Before that there were not much growth there, little appreciation of properties prices, definitely not the level of appreciation in Singapore. So far, the people I know actually made their money here then move to australia. I don't think Singaporeans are migrating to be rich in Australia. Unless you are of special professions which their government require, it is not easy to get a job there.Originally posted by fymk:And I don't even come from a poor family , just a middle class family. Their original plan was to invest first then if cannot survive on CPF , to sell off their assets and scrimp like hell to continue paying HDB maintenance and what's not to survive in Singapore independently. And my parents have multiple chronic illnesses, so sell off stuff one by one to pay for treatment ah? In no time, they will be broke.
So at least I come over to Australia. They can keep their assets and survive comfortably , go see the world and do whatever they want. If not enough, they know that I got a property they can live in so that they don't go homeless.
As for my sister , she at least gets a two doors open unlike friends of mine my age stuck in Singapore without a property to their name, with employers who don't support upgrading , with not very much to look forward to , just surviving day by day fearful of foreigners taking their jobs. I don't want it to happen to my sister as well. So if she is not happy in Singapore, she can join me overseas , earn her own money and buy her own place.
So you want to make it look like all Singaporeans are migrating just because they want to be rich and be ingrates.....no I migrated because I want a life for my own family which is comfortable and liveable. And the government in Singapore doesn't care - look at how well they pay themselves. No thanks.
don't piss me off with your self righteous " oh I stay in Singapore and you don't , so you are not patriotic" talk.
I tell people how to come to Australia, it is up to them if they want to plunge into Australia . If I can do it, anyone can do it with hardwork and preserverance - to chase their dreams in another country or to earn a comfortable lifestyle. If they get rich , bonus for them and I am happy for them too.
If they do well in Singapore, I am also happy for them also.
My parents came from Malaysia, but my family grew up in Singapore, with all the education and so on..... compared to my relatives in Malaysia, I am glad my father brought us to Singapore. He being Chinese helicopter, did not have it well under the english speaking colonial government, but we are glad we came here. Patriotism to me is what the country required of you, how patriotic are you are judged by your fellow countrymen, not what you and I claim.
Malaysia had never wanted the speak no malay/english chinaman; to the malaysians, especially the malays, the country is for the bumi. In Singapore, the reverse is true, just that the distribution of wealth is not so even, the need to care for the less fortunate become more urgent, the concerns about aging population become acute, and the need for check and balance in our political system thus become imminent. You are patriotic when dealing with outsiders, not for internal problem.
The Chinese says "jia jia you ben nan nian de jing", every family has its own problem. There is no DS solution for all families, migration is definitely not a solution for me. Besides hardwork, family support, you also need luck (to me it is the grace of God). Good luck. -
We can talk about the social systems in Singapore, Australia and America, there will be always good and bad, relative to your requirement and your positions in the society, no end.Originally posted by fymk:I already paid off 70% of my loan for an Australian apartment. Not easy - I did alot of overtime on shifts nobody wants to do. I get honestly paid for my overtime. Plus most of my money came from working since I was 15 years old - parents knew how to invest - so I am lucky. Unlike most kids, my pocket money has been cut off since I was 15 years old earning my own money. Want internet? Pay for it with your own money . Want to talk alot of the phone? Get your own phoneline and pay for it with your own money . Not happy with the clothes we bought u? Pay for your own clothes. That is what my parents did to me and it did me alot of good.
The world changed but I see the Australians and Americans protecting their own who are in middle and top management. They are trying to keep their brain drain from going out. Singapore just gives out the middle to top management out like freebies to some deserving and some undeserving foreigners.
As for anyone's duty to help poor old workers out there....well I don't think it is the right of someone who is earning millions to tell that to all those old workers.
Migration is a solution to alot of people. Our ancestors were migrants , except for the Malays who were the indigenous population.
I can't say if it will work out or not. At the moment , I can still see the next 10 years in Australia as ok but in Singapore I can't ...it is day by day survival.
But there is one thing everybody must bear in mind, your political right. The Chinese have given up that right in many SEA countries. Singaporeans are in general apathy to politics, not so much for fear of the ruling party but for the fear of changes. It is also true here to exercise our political right beyond the vote once every 4 years requires much more effort and self disciplines than in many other countries. As such, more so, much more so, do we need citizens to be politically active to make changes. Migrating will not help. -
Dear morbid4ever, very sorry to hijack your thread here to discuss about migration, very much deviated from your original topic. Now back to you, I have posted my opinion on the topic, will not deviate again. Thank you.
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Politically active? You are joking. The current government does not encourage it. Singapore is the epitomy of Father Knows Best State.Originally posted by sgdiehard:We can talk about the social systems in Singapore, Australia and America, there will be always good and bad, relative to your requirement and your positions in the society, no end.
But there is one thing everybody must bear in mind, your political right. The Chinese have given up that right in many SEA countries. Singaporeans are in general apathy to politics, not so much for fear of the ruling party but for the fear of changes. It is also true here to exercise our political right beyond the vote once every 4 years requires much more effort and self disciplines than in many other countries. As such, more so, much more so, do we need citizens to be politically active to make changes. Migrating will not help.
Look at how the opposition politicians are dealt with.
Each time someone speaks up about something. Father govt comes down and asks them to shut up and accept low wages or something. Why do you think people call Singapore a nanny state politely?
Singapore does not encourage free thinking. It encourages conformity to the ways and views of the government. Deviate and watch yourself get hammered down. -
Dear morbid4ever, you better take over and continue on with your subject, otherwise this thread becomes "Its the government fault - whatever it is."
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I don't get the "Its the government fault - whatever it is." vibe from her, but I get the "It's not the government's fault - whatever it is" vibe from youOriginally posted by sgdiehard:Dear morbid4ever, you better take over and continue on with your subject, otherwise this thread becomes "Its the government fault - whatever it is." -
It is not my fault - whatever it is.Originally posted by spinsugar:I don't get the "Its the government fault - whatever it is." vibe from her, but I get the "It's not the government's fault - whatever it is" vibe from you 
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I promised not to digress. So, is the lack of social cohesion government's fault?Originally posted by spinsugar:I don't get the "Its the government fault - whatever it is." vibe from her, but I get the "It's not the government's fault - whatever it is" vibe from you 
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Think about it this way then.Originally posted by sgdiehard:I promised not to digress. So, is the lack of social cohesion government's fault?
Policies affect society .
Why did u think Jack Neo will direct " I am not stupid"? Children being branded as hopeless once they get an EM3 rating? What is all these normal express gifted streams for? Why do you have JC students getting branded as Scholars once they get some prestigious scholarship while other countries like Australia brand scholars if they produced a paper while doing postgrad research?
Why do u think people brand ITE as It's The End? In Australia, they allow kids in high school to pick up a trade skill which is what ITE does and yet it is not telling the kids that it is the end of the world if they choose a trade skill like being an electrician or plumber.
Why do you think that in Singapore ( and even with overseas Singaporeans) , I have seen parents will point to the cashier and tell their kids if they don't study , they will end up like them?
Why do u even think Wee Shu Min, an overpampered little princess with daddy's connection , can even hammer on a poor guy griping about his future in Singapore? -
while taking snipes at the government, Jack Neo's "I not stupid" main highlight was the need for parents to be parents.Originally posted by fymk:Think about it this way then.
Why did u think Jack Neo will direct " I am not stupid"? Children being branded as hopeless once they get an EM3 rating? What is all these normal express gifted streams for? Why do you have JC students getting branded as Scholars once they get some prestigious scholarship while other countries like Australia brand scholars if they produced a paper while doing postgrad research?
The people who speak english only are branded as "jiao gang tang", "er mao zi", "banana", blame the society, or the english schools for not teaching chinese, or themselves for not paying attention to Chinese lessons in the past? education in the past did create a break in the society into those who speak english and those who don't. Now students are made to speak english and chinese. While it is still not desirable that students speak Singaporean with a mix of english, chinese, with lah, hor, meh...at least there is no more segration in the society, no more jia gang tang nor the chinese helicopters, Many Chinese families can't tahan and migrated, blaming the government.
You can find out why all these normal express gifted streams are for, extend it further why some go poly some JC if not all JC can go university? I don't necessarily agree with the education system here, which directly affect my children, but this is where I find home education more important now than ever before. but this is a different subject.
The word "Scholor" has two definitions, "a learned person or a specialist in a particular brand of learning" and "a student given scholorship aid". Australians take one definition and Singaporeans take one definition, what's wrong?
Put it this way, ITE offers our kids a trade skills to be electrician or plumber if they are not doing well in secondary schools. If they can do well they can stay on to take O level and so on. Even after ITE they can also do O level. This is an alternative, a choice. Of course nobody want to be electrician or plumber cause they are not paid as highly as those in Australia. But damn, isn't it lucky we still have the malaysian plumbers and electricians to give us affordable service. Or else we all have to go ITE to learn about electricity and plumbing. will that be the end for us?Originally posted by fymk:Why do u think people brand ITE as It's The End? In Australia, they allow kids in high school to pick up a trade skill which is what ITE does and yet it is not telling the kids that it is the end of the world if they choose a trade skill like being an electrician or plumber.
point to the cashier or point to the road sweepers? parents have always been telling their children to study so that they can become doctors, accountants, lawyers.... How can this be changed? the day cashiers make $10,000 a month!Originally posted by fymk:Why do you think that in Singapore ( and even with overseas Singaporeans) , I have seen parents will point to the cashier and tell their kids if they don't study , they will end up like them?
I am not saying that I agree with parents teaching their children this way, just that wealth or the ability to create wealth has been a key factor in social segregation. In fact, equal wealth does not necessarily bring about social cohesion, but the lack of wealth definitely aggrevate the difference. I don't know if the rich aborigines are regarded equally in the Australian society, the poor, no money aborigines are definitely one low class of its own.
why? her daddy's connection? wish her luck if all she counts on is her daddy's connection. Over pampered? hammering the poor guy like hammering her maid at home? there is nothing you can do if her father didn't teach her.Originally posted by fymk:Why do u even think Wee Shu Min, an overpampered little princess with daddy's connection , can even hammer on a poor guy griping about his future in Singapore?
My concern was the naivety and arrogance of many young punks speaking like her, subjects and opinions can be different. She is pro government, many here are anti government. An illustration of youthfulness or superiority?
Everything affects society. If policies change society, it is when the people in the society allow it to be changed. People do not live together as a society because the policies tell them so, people become a cohesive group because they have common interests. What are the common interests of Singaporeans?Originally posted by fymk:Policies affect society . -
ROFL...actually plumbers and electricians in Singapore earn quite a bit. A plumber cost 120 dollars just to unclog the toilet as my mom found out. 10 jobs in one day -1200 dollars.
Yah ...policies affect society ....I forgot to add , especially in Father knows best state. -
PAP your father? I give up.Originally posted by fymk:ROFL...actually plumbers and electricians in Singapore earn quite a bit. A plumber cost 120 dollars just to unclog the toilet as my mom found out. 10 jobs in one day -1200 dollars.
Yah ...policies affect society ....I forgot to add , especially in Father knows best state. -
If you don't know what the figurative expression Father knows best means , go find that out instead of attempting pathetically at humour.Originally posted by sgdiehard:PAP your father? I give up. -
Sorry.Originally posted by fymk:If you don't know what the figurative expression Father knows best means , go find that out instead of attempting pathetically at humour. -
Do you mean it?Originally posted by sgdiehard:Sorry. -
Not to you.Originally posted by robertteh:Do you mean it?