40 years of national service or national slavery?
-
my dear (human) over here. By ur "slavery" talk kinda reflects ur insensitivity and incapabilty to overcome ur emotion with some basic logical reasoning.
NS so xiong eh? they make u work for 20 hrs and whipped u when u cannot carry on eh?
pls eh.. by "claiming" NS a national slavery HAD u been the most clear how NS is like? slave slave slave.. tink u got no slightest idea how a real "slave" is like.
tink slave can report sick eh? slave can book out eh? slave can haf "off" "leave" tis kind of welfare one eh =o
pls dun make urself sounds so wimpy? yi dian ku dou ci bu liao.
tink further too pls. real slavery and loss of ur precious "freedom" truely comes when u had no place u could call your home. -
Fight to last man? You must be thinking all soldiers in Singapore are as naive as you.Originally posted by sgdiehard:
You are right, at very top of the chain of command, the Chief of SAF will have to take order from Teo Chee Hean, the defence minister, a politician. Yes, you will have a problem if you decide not to obey his order. That is not my problem, because I am not Chief of SAF. 
when you are in uniform, whose order do you take, a corporal? he is not a politician.
If tyrants were elected by the people of Singapore, not through revolution or means other than election, then even your grandfather from China come and want to liberate you, SAF will fight them till the last man. You can take that to the bank. -
No.... a REAL MAN must think for his family and friends when it is time for him to serve & protect. REAL MAN also think before blindly following orders.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:You mean rather, that a real man has no brains and can't think for his own self ah.
'Sh*ts talker' will tell you how bad your life is..... how you should stand up against this and that, how you should live your life free from 'tyranny'. But would not show his/her face or real name.... and won't protect your family or friends because he/she planned to leave 'Sillypore' ..... -
What makes you think you are sensitive and capable with basic logical reasoning? I would say what kind of people up there ruling you will affect your thinking whether it's a service or slavery.Originally posted by zexel:my dear (human) over here. By ur "slavery" talk kinda reflects ur insensitivity and incapabilty to overcome ur emotion with some basic logical reasoning.
NS so xiong eh? they make u work for 20 hrs and whipped u when u cannot carry on eh?
pls eh.. by "claiming" NS a national slavery HAD u been the most clear how NS is like? slave slave slave.. tink u got no slightest idea how a real "slave" is like.
tink slave can report sick eh? slave can book out eh? slave can haf "off" "leave" tis kind of welfare one eh =o
pls dun make urself sounds so wimpy? yi dian ku dou ci bu liao.
tink further too pls. real slavery and loss of ur precious "freedom" truely comes when u had no place u could call your home. -
The same question could have been asked of you....... Why would & should we listen to you tooOriginally posted by (human):What makes you think you are sensitive and capable with basic logical reasoning? I would say what kind of people up there ruling you will affect your thinking whether it's a service or slavery.
If you are a slave..... u think you can still write so much here.... u can still plan to go to another country.... A person who is unwilling to serve has no right to lead.
Your National Service not only protect the Govt...... but more importantly your family & friends. If you consider protecting family & friends as 'slavery'..... then feel free to quit S'pore. No point having you here anyway...... -
Originally posted by hloc:
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. -Mark Twain
[b]The same question could have been asked of you....... Why would & should we listen to you too If you are a slave..... u think you can still write so much here.... u can still plan to go to another country.... A person who is unwilling to serve has no right to lead.
Your National Service not only protect the Govt...... but more importantly your family & friends. If you consider protecting family & friends as 'slavery'..... then feel free to quit S'pore. No point having you here anyway......[/b]
No body is saying protecting family and friends is slavery. But serving some one who don't deserve it, it is. -
(human), your liberal usage of the term slavery is humourous.
-
I am ok with serving the country.
But I am NOT ok with the following:
We are not well recognized for our sacrifice. 2 years of youth is precious, and end up we come out to the society later than others. These days, even the so-called extra increment for people who serve NS are no longer available (as far as I know, private sector doesn't care)
We are not well recognized for our time doing reservist. There are no statistics available, but our need to leave the company to do 2 weeks reservist on avg, doesn't sit down too well with some foreign companies, and puts us in a minor disadvantage when interviewing for jobs.
I am ok to serving army to protect my family. I am NOT ok to serving army to protect foreigners who come here and take our jobs, and then leave happily knowing that they have robbed us.
I am not ok with the way the govt recognizes our efforts. Its all verbal, there is no real recognition. -
I believe there are many Singaporeans out there who share the same sentiment.Originally posted by soul_rage:I am ok with serving the country.
But I am NOT ok with the following:
We are not well recognized for our sacrifice. 2 years of youth is precious, and end up we come out to the society later than others. These days, even the so-called extra increment for people who serve NS are no longer available (as far as I know, private sector doesn't care)
We are not well recognized for our time doing reservist. There are no statistics available, but our need to leave the company to do 2 weeks reservist on avg, doesn't sit down too well with some foreign companies, and puts us in a minor disadvantage when interviewing for jobs.
I am ok to serving army to protect my family. I am NOT ok to serving army to protect foreigners who come here and take our jobs, and then leave happily knowing that they have robbed us.
I am not ok with the way the govt recognizes our efforts. Its all verbal, there is no real recognition. -
One thing though, I don't think its slavery. Becoz after all, at the end of the day, we have a choice (emigrate and don't serve).Originally posted by (human):I believe there are many Singaporeans out there who share the same sentiment. -
There is such option of emigrate and don't serve for certain people, but not all.Originally posted by soul_rage:One thing though, I don't think its slavery. Becoz after all, at the end of the day, we have a choice (emigrate and don't serve). -
No kidding, I really meant it, if your grandfathers were to invade Singapore, we will fight to the last man. Dont believe you ask your grandfather to come lah.Originally posted by (human):Fight to last man? You must be thinking all soldiers in Singapore are as naive as you. -
aiyo...why all these people thinking of migrating, don't want to serve NS, don't like sillypore are quoting quotes on "patriotism", guilty conscious or what?Originally posted by (human):Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. -Mark Twain
When you said your pledge on your enlistment in BMT, did you swear to fight your country or the government?? have you or have you not served NS?
-
there is a difference btw "fight your country", and "fight for your country"Originally posted by sgdiehard:aiyo...why all these people thinking of migrating, don't want to serve NS, don't like sillypore are quoting quotes on "patriotism", guilty conscious or what?
When you said your pledge on your enlistment in BMT, did you swear to fight your country or the government?? have you or have you not served NS?
I presume you are mentioning on the latter.
Anyway, enlistment is a mandatory thing. Sometimes I feel pledges made in such mandatory situations are more like 'coerced' -
There will be very little patriotism, because NS is mandatory - forced upon the people.
Fight for the country; with the constant influx of FTs, escalating Living Costs, Retirement Age pushed forwards to 65 - let me ask you al - is the government 'fighting' for us?
Like this, do you think there will really be true Patriotism??? -
Coerced is an appropriate word. From the time when you started schooling, were you not coerced to say pledges till the time in national service? How many people are just going through the motion or really take the pledge seriously? E.g Base on justice and equality. Do you really see people up there practicing justice and equality?
If the people up there have no moral authority, can they still expect you to listen to them and be loyal to them? -
reminds me of a certain survey that Mindef conducted, and resulted in Teo Chee Hean sayingOriginally posted by (human):Coerced is an appropriate word. From the time when you started schooling, were you not coerced to say pledges till the time in national service? How many people are just going through the motion or really take the pledge seriously? E.g Base on justice and equality. Do you really see people up there practicing justice and equality?
If the people up there have no moral authority, can they still expect you to listen to them and be loyal to them?
"Most Singaporeans are willing to fight and die for their country"
I ask everyone, if some military guy come up to you and ask you a question
"when there is a war, will you be willing to fight and die for your country?"
what would you most likely answer?
Most people will say "Yes". Who will say "No", and result in getting potentially blacklisted for the possibility of treason? -
yes, it was 'fight for your country' not 'fight your country'. Actually only those who don't like NS are fighting your country. Those who love their country "fight for your country".Originally posted by soul_rage:there is a difference btw "fight your country", and "fight for your country"
I presume you are mentioning on the latter.
Anyway, enlistment is a mandatory thing. Sometimes I feel pledges made in such mandatory situations are more like 'coerced'
That's the point, you were 'coerced' to fight for your country, not to fight for the government.
If you really feel you were being coerced, it is like somebody is forcing you to promise to protect your own house and your family, then it does not reflect on the somebody who forced you, but say much, or little about you.
-
you typed this in a moment of anger i presume. gradually, i even think by the next election, there will be lesser people supporting PAP.Originally posted by sgdiehard:If PAP rules Singapore, I don't want to serve NS, if WP rules, I serve. If prices increase, I don't serve, if cut cost, I serve, if got freedom I serve, cannot book out I don't serve.....YOU THINK SAF NIN LAO PE YEH HUH?
Have you served NS? just tell us if the experience has been that of slavery. If you haven't served, tell your mother you are running because PAP will continue to rule for a while. -
dude. why do i said u r not so called "capable" of basic reasoning coz.
ur arguement is full of urself ONLY and yet u put tis issue into a point tat u hope similar pple wif the same "sediment as u r might speak up. heh.
the big issue here is hey, u talk like a kid.
ur focus is aww NS Is wasting my time Aww NS is soo soo tough~ awww i could haf more gf if i didnt serve~~ .. and plS u r in politics Section of tis forum yet u NV gif a thought about the strategical advantages of having a strong and effective fighting force in the SE asia region.
If singapore were in ur rule (human),
we r indeeed a small red dot wif nothing to reckon for. -
Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. -George WashingtonOriginally posted by sgdiehard:yes, it was 'fight for your country' not 'fight your country'. Actually only those who don't like NS are fighting your country. Those who love their country "fight for your country".
That's the point, you were 'coerced' to fight for your country, not to fight for the government.
If you really feel you were being coerced, it is like somebody is forcing you to promise to protect your own house and your family, then it does not reflect on the somebody who forced you, but say much, or little about you.
I hope you are not the pretended one. Are you? -
In the case of Somalia, when the black hawks went down, and the 2 snipers going down to the ground to defend the pilot, and got killed in the process, that is voluntary heroism. They truly believed in 'No men to be left behind'.Originally posted by sgdiehard:yes, it was 'fight for your country' not 'fight your country'. Actually only those who don't like NS are fighting your country. Those who love their country "fight for your country".
That's the point, you were 'coerced' to fight for your country, not to fight for the government.
If you really feel you were being coerced, it is like somebody is forcing you to promise to protect your own house and your family, then it does not reflect on the somebody who forced you, but say much, or little about you.
They were not coerced to do it, they believe in it and was willing to sacrifice their lives for their fellow soldiers
In Singapore, I am curious to know, that if NS is voluntary, I wonder how many people will voluntarily join the army, sacrificing 2 years of their lives for the country, and then come out and find themselves lagged behind all their peers?
I will be honest to say, I won't, though on hindsight now, I did learnt much during my NS times. However at age 18, I doubt I would volunteer.
Also I tend to relate family and country as separate. In this globalised economy, your family can be geographically distributed all over the globe. Of coz, these are my opinions, and you are free to think otherwise. -
there is a slight error, why are we SINGAPOREAN BORNED men needed to serve NS? in future, there will most likely be shortage of singapores with more and more foreigners coming in and i seriously think that LHL will most likely call foreigners to do NS if they decide to stay here, meaning permanent resident.Originally posted by ShutterBug:There will be very little patriotism, because NS is mandatory - forced upon the people.
Fight for the country; with the constant influx of FTs, escalating Living Costs, Retirement Age pushed forwards to 65 - let me ask you al - is the government 'fighting' for us?
Like this, do you think there will really be true Patriotism??? -
though the government is thinking about strategical advantages, don't you think a better country who will decide to battle with Singapore will wipe out singapore clean? strong and efficient doesn't count if singapore has quite a small population. and for a country with 4-4.5 million people here and only men are doing NS(as should other men should be doing in other countries) and also that some portions are foreigners, i don't even think NS can survive other countries' attack. don't just think strong and effective = victory all the way. if some other big countries, like china, were to try and battle us, with a population that is many times bigger than singaporean's population, will you think we will survive?Originally posted by zexel:dude. why do i said u r not so called "capable" of basic reasoning coz.
ur arguement is full of urself ONLY and yet u put tis issue into a point tat u hope similar pple wif the same "sediment as u r might speak up. heh.
the big issue here is hey, u talk like a kid.
ur focus is aww NS Is wasting my time Aww NS is soo soo tough~ awww i could haf more gf if i didnt serve~~ .. and plS u r in politics Section of tis forum yet u NV gif a thought about the strategical advantages of having a strong and effective fighting force in the SE asia region.
If singapore were in ur rule (human),
we r indeeed a small red dot wif nothing to reckon for. -
I think 1st Gen PR, NS is voluntary. 2nd Gen PR (their kids) are the same as sgporean: no escape from NS. It is a black and white thing when they took up PR, their sons still have to serve NS even when the father gave up the PR.Originally posted by BusSpeeder:there is a slight error, why are we SINGAPOREAN BORNED men needed to serve NS? in future, there will most likely be shortage of singapores with more and more foreigners coming in and i seriously think that LHL will most likely call foreigners to do NS if they decide to stay here, meaning permanent resident.
So u now know why foreigners here are apprehensive of taking up PR when they have family.