40 years of national service or national slavery?
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Did i say NS is wasting time, NS is so tough? I didn't. So please don't assume and start putting words in people's mouth. If i talk like kid, then you are trying to show you are an old man?Originally posted by zexel:dude. why do i said u r not so called "capable" of basic reasoning coz.
ur arguement is full of urself ONLY and yet u put tis issue into a point tat u hope similar pple wif the same "sediment as u r might speak up. heh.
the big issue here is hey, u talk like a kid.
ur focus is aww NS Is wasting my time Aww NS is soo soo tough~ awww i could haf more gf if i didnt serve~~ .. and plS u r in politics Section of tis forum yet u NV gif a thought about the strategical advantages of having a strong and effective fighting force in the SE asia region.
If singapore were in ur rule (human),
we r indeeed a small red dot wif nothing to reckon for. -
guys (zexel human)Originally posted by (human):Did i say NS is wasting time, NS is so tough? I didn't. So please don't assume and start putting words in people's mouth. If i talk like kid, then you are trying to show you are an old man?
can we take a step back and re-look at the discussion?
I think maybe the word 'slavery' is too strong a word, but I think human has some points worth discussing about. -
the foreigners are eager to be in NS????Originally posted by octega:I think 1st Gen PR, NS is voluntary. 2nd Gen PR (their kids) are the same as sgporean: no escape from NS. It is a black and white thing when they took up PR, their sons still have to serve NS even when the father gave up the PR.
So u now know why foreigners here are apprehensive of taking up PR when they have family. -
Another one of those quotes about patriotism. What the hell is that?Originally posted by (human):Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. -George Washington
I hope you are not the pretended one. Are you?
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agree, if megatron were to attack us, we would be wiped out, won't survive. Some more our COE would be so expensive, we won't be able to afford Bumblebee, and even if it were to land in Singapore we would have exported it secondhand to some backward countries, can't tahan the black smoke. we are doomed.Originally posted by BusSpeeder:though the government is thinking about strategical advantages, don't you think a better country who will decide to battle with Singapore will wipe out singapore clean? strong and efficient doesn't count if singapore has quite a small population. and for a country with 4-4.5 million people here and only men are doing NS(as should other men should be doing in other countries) and also that some portions are foreigners, i don't even think NS can survive other countries' attack. don't just think strong and effective = victory all the way. if some other big countries, like china, were to try and battle us, with a population that is many times bigger than singaporean's population, will you think we will survive? -
I think your logic is incomplete.Originally posted by BusSpeeder:though the government is thinking about strategical advantages, don't you think a better country who will decide to battle with Singapore will wipe out singapore clean? strong and efficient doesn't count if singapore has quite a small population. and for a country with 4-4.5 million people here and only men are doing NS(as should other men should be doing in other countries) and also that some portions are foreigners, i don't even think NS can survive other countries' attack. don't just think strong and effective = victory all the way. if some other big countries, like china, were to try and battle us, with a population that is many times bigger than singaporean's population, will you think we will survive?
If by some reason we end up fighting US and China then suck thumb lor, sure die one. But you have to question how we got into such a situation in the first place.
But just because you can't fight elephants does not mean you can't fight for your life.
However if you are talking about REGIONAL security, then it's another thing. The mobilized strength of the SAF is more then sufficient to give pause to some parties in the region who might want to muscle in on us in regional politics. Without a credible military to give a big sting to any who might want to mess with us, we would not have the stability required for investors to be confident in us. And this logic applies PAP or no PAP or whatever government we are under.
ItÂ’s one thing to know our limits, itÂ’s another thing to think that the situtation is hopeless. The whole idea of the SAF is to make tangling with Singapore as unattractive as possible, and to that point it does a great job. This goes a long way when it comes to international politics. If we didnÂ’t have a credible military, our water politics, sovereignty issues as well as other things will take a very different turn, and usually not in our favour.
The problem is the price we pay for such a thing. While I am okay with it being a duty since I am a citizen of this nation, what I donÂ’t like or agree with is the fact that this duty ends up being more of a liability then it should really be due to policies that do not sufficiently protect the rights of those who have done their NS.
NS can be crappy indeed, but I understand the need for it. What I donÂ’t like is the way after you ORDed youÂ’re on your own and find that you canÂ’t even get some sort of a leg-up in the private sector as there are no policies in place to protect your rights and you suck thumb have to compete with one arm tied behind your back.
So yes, I think NS is necessary, but the way it still sucks our blood after our ORD is something that needs to be dealt with. -
You don't understand the quotes? It means that there are people who act and appear like patriot but actually they are not, so guard against such pretender. I hope you are not pretender because you really want to sound like patriot. Are you?Originally posted by sgdiehard:Another one of those quotes about patriotism. What the hell is that? -
fight for our lives is a factor, but i seriously don't think singaporeans, with its kiasu attitude, will want to die early. NS is necessary, that I think so, but, the government keep increasing prices will lead to most likely singaporeans leaving singapore. i'm relating this too this topic because when these singaporean leave singapore as prices increase, more will leave and i think LHL will advise more foreigners to come and be PR and then serve NS.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:I think your logic is incomplete.
If by some reason we end up fighting US and China then suck thumb lor, sure die one. But you have to question how we got into such a situation in the first place.
But just because you can't fight elephants does not mean you can't fight for your life.
However if you are talking about REGIONAL security, then it's another thing. The mobilized strength of the SAF is more then sufficient to give pause to some parties in the region who might want to muscle in on us in regional politics. Without a credible military to give a big sting to any who might want to mess with us, we would not have the stability required for investors to be confident in us. And this logic applies PAP or no PAP or whatever government we are under.
ItÂ’s one thing to know our limits, itÂ’s another thing to think that the situtation is hopeless. The whole idea of the SAF is to make tangling with Singapore as unattractive as possible, and to that point it does a great job. This goes a long way when it comes to international politics. If we didnÂ’t have a credible military, our water politics, sovereignty issues as well as other things will take a very different turn, and usually not in our favour.
The problem is the price we pay for such a thing. While I am okay with it being a duty since I am a citizen of this nation, what I donÂ’t like or agree with is the fact that this duty ends up being more of a liability then it should really be due to policies that do not sufficiently protect the rights of those who have done their NS.
NS can be crappy indeed, but I understand the need for it. What I donÂ’t like is the way after you ORDed youÂ’re on your own and find that you canÂ’t even get some sort of a leg-up in the private sector as there are no policies in place to protect your rights and you suck thumb have to compete with one arm tied behind your back.
So yes, I think NS is necessary, but the way it still sucks our blood after our ORD is something that needs to be dealt with. -
If a tour bus were to be hijacked in JB by terrorists and Abdul Gani decided that their police were shorthanded and wouldn't want to risk their life for the passengers, all Sinaporeans, who would be coerced to do the rescue, assuming the malaysian government gave us a free hand in the resue? Should the Singapore government ask the relatives of the passengers to the rescue?Originally posted by soul_rage:In the case of Somalia, when the black hawks went down, and the 2 snipers going down to the ground to defend the pilot, and got killed in the process, that is voluntary heroism. They truly believed in 'No men to be left behind'.
They were not coerced to do it, they believe in it and was willing to sacrifice their lives for their fellow soldiers..
Nobody would volunteer! when trouble comes, look to the government.Originally posted by soul_rage:In Singapore, I am curious to know, that if NS is voluntary, I wonder how many people will voluntarily join the army, sacrificing 2 years of their lives for the country, and then come out and find themselves lagged behind all their peers?.
is this called globlelization?Originally posted by soul_rage:In this globalised economy, your family can be geographically distributed all over the globe. Of coz, these are my opinions, and you are free to think otherwise.
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So those who do not wish to server wish to contribute in what area ?Originally posted by (human):Some who can contribute to the nation by serving military, some don't wish to serve military but wish to contribute in other ways but they are drafted into forces by force. 40 years of national service or national slavery?
You go tell your boss !!! Boss I do not want to work, i contribute in other area, can get pay or not ? .... !!! -
that is, if we are allowed NOT to go for NS. i doubt anyone is that willing to serve NS if it was voluntary.Originally posted by storywolf:So those who do not wish to server wish to contribute in what area ?
You go tell your boss !!! Boss I do not want to work, i contribute in other area, can get pay or not ? .... !!! -
Do I want to sound like patriot, I don't even know what is patriot, is it similar to parrot?Originally posted by (human):You don't understand the quotes? It means that there are people who act and appear like patriot but actually they are not, so guard against such pretender. I hope you are not pretender because you really want to sound like patriot. Are you? 
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Dude, u know what means or not.Originally posted by BusSpeeder:the foreigners are eager to be in NS???? -
Originally posted by storywolf:
If boss accept another form of contribution, the person can also get paid. It's a matter of consensus. Contribution in what area? It really have to depend what talent does one possess.
So those who do not wish to server wish to contribute in what area ?
You go tell your boss !!! Boss I do not want to work, i contribute in other area, can get pay or not ? .... !!! -
mistook the word for something else.Originally posted by octega:Dude, u know what means or not. -
i think by now we should have mercenaries instead of enlisting our boys.
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maybe singapore has unofficial nuclear weapons ?Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:You think our neighbours will bother to conquer us ah? This rock is quite useless to them beyond some ego boosting.
And yes, China has unofficially an aircraft carrier. What's left of the Varyag and the Minsk which they are examining to try build their own.
The unfortunate fact of this world is that small countries exist to be bullied. The UN is supposed to prevent this, but hey, who ultimately wields the levers of power? -
The best thing that I have learnt to do in NS is to observe jokers from afar and appreciate their effort and get on with my life.
The motto is that if you can survive in NS,you can survive anywhere.
Although I don like it either,but NO country can survive with no army of their own.With wonderful friends who always have mood swing around us ,you must be a genius to think that NS is a waste of time.
Having an army does not means that you have to go to war,as SUNZI has said the best tactic to win a war is to win a battle without going into it. -
again I don't understand what you are implying, I am just asking a practical question. If NS is voluntary, would anyone serve it voluntarily?If a tour bus were to be hijacked in JB by terrorists and Abdul Gani decided that their police were shorthanded and wouldn't want to risk their life for the passengers, all Sinaporeans, who would be coerced to do the rescue, assuming the malaysian government gave us a free hand in the resue? Should the Singapore government ask the relatives of the passengers to the rescue?
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Don't know what you are implying, but leave it to the regulars.Nobody would volunteer! when trouble comes, look to the government.
Will you? Bearing in mind that
(1) you lose 2 years of your youth
(2) companies these days don't treat your sacrifice as sacrifice
(3) you have to serve reservist some more, which is a liability to you as companies (esp foreign) don't like it.
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is this called globlelization? so what is in your opinion? and its spelled globalization. -
How many of you are prepared to volunteer to join the Territorials/Reserves in the new nation that you have migrated to?
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only the 2nd generation. Unless u migrated very young.Originally posted by LazerLordz:How many of you are prepared to volunteer to join the Territorials/Reserves in the new nation that you have migrated to?
first generation would not be signing up in any country anywhere. heck most of them would not be fully assumulate fully. wake up on sunday morning think of Laksa. -
In a hijack situation, you can leave it to the professional. If Singapore sovereignty is threatened, the whole SAF involved, there are no regulars organised in one single unit to fight a war. The discussion on whether we should have an army of regulars or conscripts is over for Singapore. All men serve NS to form the SAF.Originally posted by soul_rage:leave it to the regulars. .
There will not be enough volunteers to form an effective force. Those who serve will take advantage of those don't, you end up the rich paying the poor to fight.Originally posted by soul_rage:again I don't understand what you are implying, I am just asking a practical question. If NS is voluntary, would anyone serve it voluntarily?
Will you? Bearing in mind that
(1) you lose 2 years of your youth
(2) companies these days don't treat your sacrifice as sacrifice
(3) you have to serve reservist some more, which is a liability to you as companies (esp foreign) don't like it. .
Did I lose 2 years of my youth? NO, I lived two years of my youth in the army. I made the best use of my time there, I learned to work as a team, I learned leadership, I've been to many places, had many experience and memory which I wouldn't have had if not for the army. What did you learned during NS? or just last year? or the last six months, if you had not learned anything, gained any experience, made any new friends, .....done anything you deem useful then you had just wasted your youth, you don't lose them. If all you did was learning $100,000 last year but learned nothing else, your life is worth only $100,000 a year. It is not a lot of value for a man.
Doing ICT, you don't sacrifice anything, you are paid your civilian salary, your company don't sacrifice anything, cause they don't pay you anything.
Companies in Singapore, esp foreign, don't like you to take leave, when summer comes they will go for a month summer vacation; companies (esp foreign) complain there are too many public holidays, but they don't complain when they are back in home office where there are more holidays. There are many things that foreign companies don't want you to have, if you feel sorry for taking time to do ICT, just do overtime when you are back in office. That would be some sacrifice, to look good in front of your boss, not for the country.
how do you "geographically distribute your family all over the globe"?Originally posted by soul_rage:so what is in your opinion? and its spelled globalization. -
Again I am not asking whether you think we will have enough volunteers for the fighting force.
In a hijack situation, you can leave it to the professional. If Singapore sovereignty is threatened, the whole SAF involved, there are no regulars organised in one single unit to fight a war. The discussion on whether we should have an army of regulars or conscripts is over for Singapore. All men serve NS to form the SAF.
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why must it be men?
I am not talking about whether we should or should not have compulsory NS to form the SAF
I am talking about between being willing as against being forced into itWill you? Bearing in mind that
(1) you lose 2 years of your youth
(2) companies these days don't treat your sacrifice as sacrifice
(3) you have to serve reservist some more, which is a liability to you as companies (esp foreign) don't like it. .
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There will not be enough volunteers to form an effective force. Those who serve will take advantage of those don't, you end up the rich paying the poor to fight.
Did I lose 2 years of my youth? NO, I lived two years of my youth in the army. I made the best use of my time there, I learned to work as a team, I learned leadership, I've been to many places, had many experience and memory which I wouldn't have had if not for the army. What did you learned during NS? or just last year? or the last six months, if you had not learned anything, gained any experience, made any new friends, .....done anything you deem useful then you had just wasted your youth, you don't lose them. If all you did was learning $100,000 last year but learned nothing else, your life is worth only $100,000 a year. It is not a lot of value for a man.
Doing ICT, you don't sacrifice anything, you are paid your civilian salary, your company don't sacrifice anything, cause they don't pay you anything.
Companies in Singapore, esp foreign, don't like you to take leave, when summer comes they will go for a month summer vacation; companies (esp foreign) complain there are too many public holidays, but they don't complain when they are back in home office where there are more holidays. There are many things that foreign companies don't want you to have, if you feel sorry for taking time to do ICT, just do overtime when you are back in office. That would be some sacrifice, to look good in front of your boss, not for the country.
I am asking whether you will volunteer to serve if NS was voluntary.
All the talk above is only good on hindsight, and I suspect many people focus on the positives, since they have no choice over it.
[quote]how do you "geographically distribute your family all over the globe"? again you missed the point. As globalisation continues, my family members go overseas to work and stay. As such there is no longer such a thing as family = country. So I do not relate both together.
the old concept of no country => no family is losing its value.
In the past, when everyone's in their own country, this would be more relevant
These days, its no longer as relevant -
I've done my duty and I am not in a hurry to let my wife or daughter to serve NS. So you men better do. There is no answer to "why me?"Originally posted by soul_rage:why must it be men?
I am not talking about whether we should or should not have compulsory NS to form the SAF
I am talking about being willing and be forced into it
nobody willing so have to be forced, nobody is volunteer so have to make it compulsory. any more question?
I will not volunteer to serve NS if it is voluntary, and if you focus only on the negative aspect of your life, your life is going to be miserable. In life not a lot of things are choice one, be positive and even raining days can be happy.Originally posted by soul_rage:Again I am not asking whether you think we will have enough volunteers for the fighting force.
I am asking whether you will volunteer to serve if NS was voluntary.
All the talk above is only good on hindsight, and I suspect many people focus on the positives, since they have no choice over it.
If your wife stays in one country, you settle in another country, your children with your parents in another country, I agree, family not = country. Do you think you still have a family?Originally posted by soul_rage:again you missed the point. As globalisation continues, my family members go overseas to work and stay. As such there is no longer such a thing as family = country. So I do not relate both together. -
yes, it is all in your mind.Originally posted by (human):Freedom and slavery are mental states. You have to ask them.