40 years of national service or national slavery?
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100...
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Btw... Pls give us 'out of the world' allowances so as to prevent corruption and ensure the country's national security....
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The problem is this, why is Singapore worth fighting and dying for?
Unfortunately in recent times the reasons are getting harder to find. If the Singaporean does not feel he has ownership of his nation, then as the Spartan king said, we will have "more slaves then soldiers". -
here are some non tradditional thought about NS.
Personally i served my NS and my ICT. Did my IPPT twice a year. Did not held any crititical post that will change anybody life. I complainted about weekend mob manning and ICt, but at the end of the journey i think it is a worth while experienced.
The Fact remain ICT is a sacrific of your time and fight for your fellow Singaporean, n your family member. Because we are not in any War, we don't feel like we are fighting for our fellow Singaporean, n family but we think it is for gov. If you watch interviewed of WWII survival Veteran, nobody claim to be Hero. Nobody claim to be fighting for any country. All Heros for those WWII veteran who gave their life to defend singapore are in Kranji Cemetery.
Survival are just glad to be alive with Love ones.
Perharps is because we have not experience war in our life time, as such you make such a poor comparision thinking that it is gov that you slaved. Look at the Israelies u will see a reflection that will be Singaporean. Be glad that during ICT you get to come home not deployed to Lebanon.
To make a post of such topics u fail in "Character". Civilian military is by far most relevant to us. It is a fare system. If Singapore is going to make a stand. Than everyone within that system play their part.
Learn more about character of a nation. Maturity of a country, There will be One Lucky Generation in Singapore that will defined the Character of Singapore.
as for me i am above 40. (can't believe i said that 
) -
its again not about whether you focus on negative or positive parts of your life. I am just stating an observation, that NS is perceived as 'forced' to almost everyone.I've done my duty and I am not in a hurry to let my wife or daughter to serve NS. So you men better do. There is no answer to "why me?"
nobody willing so have to be forced, nobody is volunteer so have to make it compulsory. any more question?
[/quote]
so its simple, my issue at point is, people are more willing to take initiative and really achieve what they pledge themselves to do, IF they took up the pledge willingly.
"No man gets left behind" The majority of US troops are regulars and they subscribe to this notion, so we know that the majority of the troops will perform as pledged come D-Day.
For Singapore, its different. Making it mandatory and then saying that we have an army willing to die for the country, because they pledged to do so, is very much different.
Our army is good to be a deterrent force, but come real battles, whether that pledge would be carried out is still a big question mark.I will not volunteer to serve NS if it is voluntary, and if you focus only on the negative aspect of your life, your life is going to be miserable. In life not a lot of things are choice one, be positive and even raining days can be happy.
If they had been given a choice, most of them would not serve.
However, if the govt had made NS more attractive thru motivational strategies, such as better recognition of those who served NS, better pay, better benefits, better work prospects, etc, then it may be a different story. People might willingly serve coz it gives them a better edge in life.
If you watched The Apprentice, there was one season where the guy won the position because he had the added edge of serving in the army, and Donald Trump saw it as good relevant experience. In Singapore? No one ever values what you do in there.
So you see, to me, its always stick stick stick, so far, our govt does not have that ability to motivate the Singaporean, instead always using punishment as a threat.
[quote]
If your wife stays in one country, you settle in another country, your children with your parents in another country, I agree, family not = country. Do you think you still have a family?
I have to comment that your posting above is a little narrowly put. I have friends from Thailand, who work here for many years, and have wife and kids back in Thailand, and they are just as happy.
I think your definition of family may be a bit too narrow, how say you? -
I have read your posts and have the following views:Originally posted by Arapahoe:here are some non tradditional thought about NS.
Personally i served my NS and my ICT. Did my IPPT twice a year. Did not held any crititical post that will change anybody life. I complainted about weekend mob manning and ICt, but at the end of the journey i think it is a worth while experienced.
The Fact remain ICT is a sacrific of your time and fight for your fellow Singaporean, n your family member. Because we are not in any War, we don't feel like we are fighting for our fellow Singaporean, n family but we think it is for gov. If you watch interviewed of WWII survival Veteran, nobody claim to be Hero. Nobody claim to be fighting for any country. All Heros for those WWII veteran who gave their life to defend singapore are in Kranji Cemetery.
Survival are just glad to be alive with Love ones.
Perharps is because we have not experience war in our life time, as such you make such a poor comparision thinking that it is gov that you slaved. Look at the Israelies u will see a reflection that will be Singaporean. Be glad that during ICT you get to come home not deployed to Lebanon.
To make a post of such topics u fail in "Character". Civilian military is by far most relevant to us. It is a fare system. If Singapore is going to make a stand. Than everyone within that system play their part.
Learn more about character of a nation. Maturity of a country, There will be One Lucky Generation in Singapore that will defined the Character of Singapore. as for me i am above 40. (can't believe i said that )
1) Is this a nation or a corporation? I think your thoughts are "think not what the nation can do for you, but what you can do for the nation". Its a selfless thought, but if exploited by people with ulterior motives, is used to control the people on the streets so that the pigs get to enjoy their booze and food while the people suffer
2) The fact is, there is no war. I think its not a fair comparison to put Israel into the picture, because the situation is very different here. I will only say its fair, if the leaders of the nation suffer together with the people. And in Israel, that's true. The nation is suffering as a whole, thus no one complains. Ours? Very big difference
3) Civilian military is fair? Bear in mind that we are not only supposed to protect the country, but also to support the economy, support the family...
And then in comes devious foreigners (not those whom really contribute to Singapore) whom your leaders open the doors and windows to, and they come in to rob and steal and plunder and your leaders happily say "come rob us!", while the local Singaporean has to play 3 roles in the country, and the govt isn't grateful of all that...
Fair? Hardly. -
To me Sillypore is not worth fighting and dying for. I do not regret serving national slavery as I found out my own limitations and also I had no choice as my family was poor..so there was no way out of this piece of rock...
Now that I am quite comfortable, I have chosen not to allow my son to serve national slavery as it is simply a waste of time....and that is why we have moved out of this little rock and cashed out everything...including cpf....I'd rather my children learn about the ways of the world in a real business environment...rather than run around, doing silly things...to all those who have served ns...you all know what I mean...
To all those who can, willing and who have no emotional hang ups about leaving....I urge you to work hard and find your way out of here.....this place may or may not last but I certainly won't take that risk..rather put my eggs in a safer basket elsewhere...
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NS teaches man how to be humji n suck thumb so...
so government do anything most Men will just lan lan suck thumb thats why gst up also diam what thing government say also diam understand?
NS is just a brainwash -
AgreeOriginally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:The problem is this, why is Singapore worth fighting and dying for?
Unfortunately in recent times the reasons are getting harder to find. If the Singaporean does not feel he has ownership of his nation, then as the Spartan king said, we will have "more slaves then soldiers".
Before we are indoctrinated with the idea that 'We ourselves must defend our homeland' and 'no one owns us a living', perhaps someone (you-know-who) should come up with a substainable reason on what makes Singapore worth defending in the first place.
Our families and love ones? Well, not if we are to leave this country as long as we have the ability to. -
Precisely my sentiments...Originally posted by mahawarrior:Agree
Before we are indoctrinated with the idea that 'We ourselves must defend our homeland' and 'no one owns us a living', perhaps someone (you-know-who) should come up with a substainable reason on what makes Singapore worth defending in the first place.
Our families and love ones? Well, not if we are to leave this country as long as we have the ability to.
What I posted earlier:
Fight for the country; with the constant influx of FTs, escalating Living Costs, Retirement Age pushed forwards to 65 - let me ask you al - is the government 'fighting' for us?
Like this, do you think there will really be true Patriotism??? -
I think the foreign professional also can observe what is the pro n con of staying here n how many of them sincerely like to become citizen?Originally posted by ShutterBug:Precisely my sentiments...
What I posted earlier:
Fight for the country; with the constant influx of FTs, escalating Living Costs, Retirement Age pushed forwards to 65 - let me ask you al - is the government 'fighting' for us?
Like this, do you think there will really be true Patriotism??? -
Quite frankly, the way things are going, we are going to end up like Carthage of old; nothing but mercenary troops.
Incidentally, Carthage was ruled by a mercantile class... not too dissimilar to Singapore. -
Why not? This island is perhaps not even worth defending anyway. They only come here to earn pay, nothing more.Originally posted by will4:I think the foreign professional also can observe what is the pro n con of staying here n how many of them sincerely like to become citizen?
Mercenaries do not care about their citizenship, nor do they want it. The French had the Foreign Legion taking in foreigners for decades. -
i SERIOUSLY think that PAP will live to regret their actions.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Why not? This island is perhaps not even worth defending anyway. They only come here to earn pay, nothing more.
Mercenaries do not care about their citizenship, nor do they want it. The French had the Foreign Legion taking in foreigners for decades. -
Oh, it better. Else, this country will never learn the lesson of tyranny.Originally posted by BusSpeeder:i SERIOUSLY think that PAP will live to regret their actions. -
yes, i even wonder what sort of influence did PAP give to our Singaporeans adults.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Oh, it better. Else, this country will never learn the lesson of tyranny. -
The problem with PAP, is that they always have the cheek to not admit any mistakes they make.
Has anyone ever heard them apologized? A word "sorry" NEVER came out of their golden mouths...
Even when things seriously goes wrong because of their "bright ideas", you think they will admit anything? Look at NKF !!! Act holy all the farking way!!!
NBCB! -
how about the extra 3 strokes. PAP got say sorry? if got, i'll be so surprised. if not, they're heartless. and for NS, IMO, as said few pages ago (anyone wants to know go and find), but its not good for Singapore as they're like "making use" of us, call the commander to command the citizens of Singapore, that is us, then the command must order us do this do that. i really think that in maybe 10 years later, there will be approximately 1.4 million people only (most rich foreigners and rich singaporeans) will live here. and since they're RICH, all things increase, and singapore's proposed transports, will be all gone to drain, for example MRT, NSL, EWL, then NEL, then CCL, then DTL. and more to come in the future years to come.Originally posted by ShutterBug:The problem with PAP, is that they always have the cheek to not admit any mistakes they make.
Has anyone ever heard them apologized? A word "sorry" NEVER came out of their golden mouths...
Even when things seriously goes wrong because of their "bright ideas", you think they will admit anything? Look at NKF !!! Act holy all the farking way!!!
NBCB! -
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Today anybody take any pledge willingly? Do couples remember their marriage vows even they took their vows willingly? I don't count on my company in the SAF to fight in war just because of the pledge they took, even the english speaking ones have forgotten already. We would fight so that our whole company would stay alive during war.Originally posted by soul_rage:so its simple, my issue at point is, people are more willing to take initiative and really achieve what they pledge themselves to do, IF they took up the pledge willingly.
"No man gets left behind" The majority of US troops are regulars and they subscribe to this notion, so we know that the majority of the troops will perform as pledged come D-Day.
For Singapore, its different. Making it mandatory and then saying that we have an army willing to die for the country, because they pledged to do so, is very much different.
Our army is good to be a deterrent force, but come real battles, whether that pledge would be carried out is still a big question mark.
If you don't have the conviction to protect what belongs to you, the fervor to fight for what is right to you, you will not fight even if you were escorted to the battlefield. Without the conviction to prevent the cube from getting in the wrong hand, the autobots would never had travelled the universe for hundred of years in search of the cube, bumblebee would not have travelled all the way to earth to protect Sam Witwicky, not even the Decepticons would take the trouble to search and find Megatron. If you were Bumblebee or may be the Frenzy, what would you do? run to a distant planet unknown to anybody and hide?
In life we are often "forced" to do many things, I hated music lessons and was forced to learn piano, having gone through that now I thank my mom for forcing me to learn piano.Originally posted by soul_rage:its again not about whether you focus on negative or positive parts of your life. I am just stating an observation, that NS is perceived as 'forced' to almost everyone.
If they had been given a choice, most of them would not serve.
However, if the govt had made NS more attractive thru motivational strategies, such as better recognition of those who served NS, better pay, better benefits, better work prospects, etc, then it may be a different story. People might willingly serve coz it gives them a better edge in life.
If you watched The Apprentice, there was one season where the guy won the position because he had the added edge of serving in the army, and Donald Trump saw it as good relevant experience. In Singapore? No one ever values what you do in there.
So you see, to me, its always stick stick stick, so far, our govt does not have that ability to motivate the Singaporean, instead always using punishment as a threat.
Recognition? the VP of the last company I worked for is a retired US Air Force colonel, as a Reservist Officer from the SAF, I received much respect from him, than many senior managers, especially those from subsidiaries in the region. He never treated me as a subordinate nor a manager, but an officer and a gentleman. My experience with NS is obviously very different from yours, that serves as evidence that many things you talked about do exist. Why are you not getting it? ask yourself. What kind of better pay are you looking for? $20,000 per month for a private, may be that is why the PM must be paid millions?
thousands of Singaporeans working in China, HK, Indonesia have their families in Singapore. Does it make China, HK, Indonesia their country? I don't understand your point. Definition of family? my parents, my wife and my children, wherever they are they are my family. Is there a broader definition? like having a er nai in China?Originally posted by soul_rage:have to comment that your posting above is a little narrowly put. I have friends from Thailand, who work here for many years, and have wife and kids back in Thailand, and they are just as happy.
I think your definition of family may be a bit too narrow, how say you? -
Before I respond to your thread, pls kindly remove your offensive remarks in your replies. It would improve your credibility if you stopped being offensive to others by making irresponsible comments.
pls kindly leave Transformers out of this discussion. They are NOT REAL.Today anybody take any pledge willingly? Do couples remember their marriage vows even they took their vows willingly? I don't count on my company in the SAF to fight in war just because of the pledge they took, even the english speaking ones have forgotten already. We would fight so that our whole company would stay alive during war.[/quote]
As far as I know, US soldiers joining the army as full-time soldiers take the pledge willingly. Are you saying that SAF don't need the pledge? So what's the pledge for? Are you implying that SAF is wrong, and that it is useless to take the pledge?
Anyway I take issue with your statement above.
I took my marriage vows with my wife willingly and I remember that I will love her and care for her till the day we leave this world.
I remember mine. Do you remember yours? There is a reason for you to take your vow. IF you don't even take it seriously, then there is nothing more I need to say.
Also, Once again, you are not getting the point. I am not talking about WHY we must make it mandatory
I am talking about HOW REAL can it be if you force people to take the pledge. By saying that your army is willing to die for the country coz they pledged to do so, when they are FORCED to take the pledge, is as good as deluding oneself about the REAL value of such a forced pledge.
Pls keep the discussion to the exact point. Don't keep digressing to other topics.If you don't have the conviction to protect what belongs to you, the fervor to fight for what is right to you, you will not fight even if you were escorted to the battlefield. Without the conviction to prevent the cube from getting in the wrong hand, the autobots would never had travelled the universe for hundred of years in search of the cube, bumblebee would not have travelled all the way to earth to protect Sam Witwicky, not even the Decepticons would take the trouble to search and find Megatron. If you were Bumblebee or may be the Frenzy, what would you do? run to a distant planet unknown to anybody and hide? Embarassed Mr. Green
Recognition? the VP of the last company I worked for is a retired US Air Force colonel, as a Reservist Officer from the SAF, I received much respect from him, than many senior managers, especially those from subsidiaries in the region. He never treated me as a subordinate nor a manager, but an officer and a gentleman. My experience with NS is obviously very different from yours, that serves as evidence that many things you talked about do exist. Why are you not getting it? ask yourself. What kind of better pay are you looking for? $20,000 per month for a private, may be that is why the PM must be paid millions? Embarassed
That is becoz you worked for a retired US officer. In fact, as far as I know, many comments about our army from other nation's armies (which I often hear in our collaboration together in the past), is that our army seems to be an army that is based on paper, and is not worth much in their view.
How credible can our army be if our generals are promoted based on whether they have a degree from Cambridge or Harvard, and NOT on whether they can fight?
So how different is your NS? Care to elaborate more? By making irresponsible comments about others being a private, it does not make you credible. Instead elaborate more on what you think about your NS that is so much different about others.
And again, don't digress. I am asking you about whether if you would serve the army if its voluntary. No one would want to serve, EVEN you right?Again you are missing the point. I am saying country is NOT equal to family. Today my family can be anywhere in the world, and the country is no longer as important, becoz what's more important is the place you live in.thousands of Singaporeans working in China, HK, Indonesia have their families in Singapore. Does it make China, HK, Indonesia their country? I don't understand your point. Definition of family? my parents, my wife and my children, wherever they are they are my family. Is there a broader definition? like having a er nai in China? Mr. Green
In the past, country literally means family becoz your family is within your country, and if your country is destroyed, your family usually goes along.
Today the above no longer applies.
PS: By the way, you are contradicting your earlier comment. I refer to your earlier comment
[quote]
If your wife stays in one country, you settle in another country, your children with your parents in another country, I agree, family not = country. Do you think you still have a family?
Now you are saying wherever they are, they are still your family. So which one is it? You are confusing everyone -
Strive for an egalitarian relationship between officers and men, and focus on tough training.
Salute an officer for what?! -
Do you love your wife becaue you made a vow, or do you love her for what she is, with or without vow? It is immaterial whether SAF take pledge or not, in fact the pledge was made once, nobody expect the SAF to fight because of the pledge they made, forced or no forced. If you go awol, you will not be charged according to the pledge you made.Originally posted by soul_rage:I take issue with your statement above.
I took my marriage vows with my wife willingly and I remember that I will love her and care for her till the day we leave this world.
I remember mine. Do you remember yours?
Once again, you are not getting the point. I am not talking about WHY we must make it mandatory
I am talking about HOW REAL can it be if you force people to take the pledge. By saying that your army is willing to die for the country coz they pledged to do so, when they are FORCED to take the pledge, is as good as deluding oneself about the REAL value of such a forced pledge.
Pls keep the discussion to the exact point. Don't keep digressing to other topics.
How real you think is depicted in 'Black Hawk Down'? do you know what is the moral of the story?Originally posted by soul_rage:pls kindly leave Transformers out of this discussion. They are NOT REAL.
Which nation's armies told you our army is based on paper? who are the people who gave such remarks? Are our generals promoted based on their degree from Cambridge or Harvard? you are losing your credibility by passing such comments. What were you in the SAF? I didn't say you were a private, but obviously you have proven yourself to be.Originally posted by soul_rage:That is becoz you worked for a retired US officer. In fact, as far as I know, many comments about our army from other nation's armies (which I often hear in our collaboration together in the past), is that our army seems to be an army that is based on paper, and is not worth much in their view.
How credible can our army be if our generals are promoted based on whether they have a degree from Cambridge or Harvard, and NOT on whether they can fight?
So how different is your NS? Care to elaborate more? By making irresponsible comments about others being a private, it does not make you credible. Instead elaborate more on what you think about your NS that is so much different about others.
And again, don't digress. I am asking you about whether if you would serve the army if its voluntary. No one would want to serve, EVEN you right?
I told you many times, nobody serve NS if it is not compulsory, and what is wrong with that? Does it make SAF any less effective as a fighting force?
Human Migration began thousands of years ago, families migrated when there were wars, diseases, ..... that devastated where they lived. It is not true now, it has never been true in the past, that 'your country is destroyed, your family usually goes along."Originally posted by soul_rage:Again you are missing the point. I am saying country is NOT equal to family. Today my family can be anywhere in the world, and the country is no longer as important, becoz what's more important is the place you live in.
In the past, country literally means family becoz your family is within your country, and if your country is destroyed, your family usually goes along.
Today the above no longer applies.
Your family can be anywhere in the world, do they have to come back to your 'country'? If war breaks out in the country your family is staying, do you move on to another place or do you come back? If you don't have to come back, then the country is not important to you. If you have to come back, then make sure that the country is there for you. -
I have read its history to know enough that the two snipers are REAL, and they indeed sacrificed their lives for their fellow soldiers.
Do you love your wife becaue you made a vow, or do you love her for what she is, with or without vow? It is immaterial whether SAF take pledge or not, in fact the pledge was made once, nobody expect the SAF to fight because of the pledge they made, forced or no forced. If you go awol, you will not be charged according to the pledge you made.
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Don't understand what are you trying to depict. The way you say it, its like all company visions, and all pledges are worthless and useless. If that's the case, visions and pledges would all be removed a long time ago. But to this day, they all still exist, and visions and pledges remain an important part to an organization to this day
In fact, I can see you don't understand the purpose of a vision or a pledge, that's why you are making so many irresponsible remarks.How real you think is depicted in 'Black Hawk Down'? do you know what is the moral of the story?
Bumblebee? OBVIOUSLY unreal.
From the irresponsible remark you made above, plus the fact that you don't understand visions and pledges, I can confirm no matter what rank you are, your mentality is that of a private.Which nation's armies told you our army is based on paper? who are the people who gave such remarks? Are our generals promoted based on their degree from Cambridge or Harvard? you are losing your credibility by passing such comments. What were you in the SAF? I didn't say you were a private, but obviously you have proven yourself to be.
Prove to me that our generals are promoted based on something else. Go ahead. Prove to me that PM Lee is justified to get his BG rank.
It is a FACT that if you don't have the paper qualifications from a reputable university, you won't have much of a future in SAF.
In fact, I can tell you that, many of their scholars are GUARANTEED a MAJOR rank by the age of 26 so long as they don't screw up big-time.
How's that for getting promoted coz of paper?
since you keep questioning me, go ahead and prove your credibility by giving your own observations, and not just keep questioning others.no, nothing wrong, you just completely misunderstood everything.I told you many times, nobody serve NS if it is not compulsory, and what is wrong with that? Does it make SAF any less effective as a fighting force?
I am highlighting the fact becoz we are being MADE to serve, that is why it is perceived as forced.
You are talking about WHY we must make it compulsory.
They are two completely different topics. So pls kindly stick to the topic since I am just telling you why it is perceived as forced.
[quote]Human Migration began thousands of years ago, families migrated when there were wars, diseases, ..... that devastated where they lived. It is not true now, it has never been true in the past, that 'your country is destroyed, your family usually goes along."
Your family can be anywhere in the world, do they have to come back to your 'country'? If war breaks out in the country your family is staying, do you move on to another place or do you come back? If you don't have to come back, then the country is not important to you. If you have to come back, then make sure that the country is there for you.
So now you say that your family is still family even if your wife is in country Z, you are in country X, and your kids are in country Y? I thought you were the one that imply that this is no longer a family?
Kindly confirm that is your implication and acknowledge your contradiction before we continue this.
Again I am not talking about patriotism. I am talking about the practicalities of the statement "Country = Family". Becoz in the past, its more becoz families stay together and thus are most likely to be in the same location, so its "Country before Family", coz without country, there is no family since the country, in which the family is located, has been destroyed.
Now that's not the case. That's all I am observing. You are free to have your own views and thoughts, but that does not alter the changes to the world due to globalization