UK terror suspects all linked to NHS
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Ah, the age old battle between defense and offense.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:They have a track record at dealing with the mess AFTER the terrorist act. Singapore has a track record at preventing it.
So what if one slips through the cracks? Are we good enough to mop up? We may never know.
But I would support greater cooperation between us and London in these matters. -
If the sleeper terrorist doesn't get him, our resident doctor here will do the job with his incompetence.Originally posted by the Bear:ahem..
i wonder if the sleeper terrorists will kill him if he seeks treatment
clicky here => Cabbie tore tendon kicking burning terrorist in the nuts -
LOL, that's a good one!Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Flaming others, causing havoc and calling names are the specialties of Atobe and company. Those skills I haven't mastered... 
Dude, even if you can lie without any conscience, but at the very least lie properly lah. -
Salaam,
As many have read the war on terror has not made the world safer but more dangerous.
After SEp 11,the world even the muslim world supported the right of defence and attack on the taliban.
But after the attack on Iraq under the pretense of weapons of mass destruction,and the unraveling of the lies and the gruesome and barbaric action of the Coaltition in iraq and afghan has undermined the "higher moral" of the US and it war on terror.
As is the latest UK blast,i forsee more and more shall happen in the world.
Reading a very insightful by a UK Muslim leader,he said succintly that the radical fought out of "romatic notion of east verses west" ,but they fight not for truth and justice,for if the did they would be championing the right of Darfur/sudan too..
So what do they fight for?
Revenge?
For Iraqis and Afghan?
For radicals,the same notion applies tot he coaltiion of the willing.
For Sep 11,the US and its allies attacked and killed more then 100 000 human being men womena dn children are killed.
Is that not an act of revenge?
Yes in the simpleset terms.
To be safe,the US take the offensive to the enmies lands.
That is what is happeing and will happen unless somthign happens to arrest this slide.
The radicals are fighting as they see it,a defence.
As all military commander knows,the best defence is offense.
Looking thru our human history we have seen that war does not end till the aggresors has been brought down low in their own land..
Take a look at WW1 and WW2.
thus using such notion,the radicals are trying to create harm in the lands of the enemies.To bring pain and suffering to their opponets as theya re feeling now.
But for both sides the action are wrong,revenge is not the onus on the non vitims but rahter the victims.
The majority must not pay for the deeds of the few.
And thus we need to come to a consensus of LAW and Order.
that all of mankind shall be punishable by law by their deeds.
We cannot expect to punish other for the same deeeds we do.
As an example,a soldier in Iraq should be punished int eh same manner as the bombers in the UK,if the harm done is equal and the loss is equal.
as of now the rule of law is dependant on religion and nationlaity.
Another exaple,if Saddam has faced trial for murder of Iraqs,should not the Bush too be tried for the murder of the Iraqis?
Law must be upheld,people must be given the sense of justice before peace can come.
If law is gone then the law of arms come to play.
Thus is corruption always lead to violence. -
Salaam,Originally posted by Atobe:You are correct with your observation that alien ''communities in host countries generally do not present problems and are grateful at the opportunities for a better life''.
The problem always seem to rear its ugly head when the alien community reaches a ''critical mass'' in their numbers that they will then begin to make insidious ''political demands'' - first for their Equal Rights, and gradually increasing the ''political ante'' by demanding separate laws that are applicable only to their own Community separate from that of the Host Country.
Soon enough, a country like UK will be dominated by an alien race in nearly all areas of public service, with many positions filled by residents or citizens who come from some alien place on this globe and unfamiliar with the British Ways.
As matters stand, UK may soon be hijacked and the fine ethnic balance will be thrown out of sync from the present main ethnic groups of English, Scots, Welsh and Irish descents.
The 'Fundamentalist Ideologues' will make their greatest efforts - and with any means at their disposal - to start a ''War of Civilization'' that will pitch the citizens of the Host Countries with those alien new arrivals.
Out of self-interest, Singaporeans should not give in to the fundamentalist but should take a more pro-active roles to confront such elements whenever the opportunity arises.
Just wish to point out that almost every coutnry includin the US started with a minority who grew belligernt when their number massed up and asserted their right,egthe war with the indians...
Same goes for the Australia and South Africa.
such situation are the normal cycle of human transfers.
Even int he US there is a debate on wheter the Latinos should sing the National anthem in their own language..LOL..
For a race to be assimilated then it must be duly representated in the goverment,as of now even tho the number of muslim in the western world is huge they are under represented and their views unheards.
races irregardless of majority or minority will always somehow be integrated into one another,do any chinese person not eat prata or cook curry or eat chilli crab?
Or dont any malay eat hor fun,or char siew pow,,albeit halal ones?
ever heard of Singlish?LOL
such interaction is inevitable,but the barriers are rising not due to differnces but due DESIRE NOT TO INTEGRATE,,maybe by both sides or by one side.
I believe that in the future more and more countries will have no choice but to cater to and support Islmaic views,as population makes a poltitician.
Inshallah,you can check for the birth rate of muslim in western coutnries as compared to their counterparts.
A good comparision would be Palestine and Isrealis
Palestinian birth rate is 3~4X while the Isrealis are stagnant.. -
Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Perceptions, perceptions, perceptions.....
Salaam,
As many have read the war on terror has not made the world safer but more dangerous.
After SEp 11,the world even the muslim world supported the right of defence and attack on the taliban.
But after the attack on Iraq under the pretense of weapons of mass destruction,and the unraveling of the lies and the gruesome and barbaric action of the Coaltition in iraq and afghan has undermined the "higher moral" of the US and it war on terror.
As is the latest UK blast,i forsee more and more shall happen in the world.
Reading a very insightful by a UK Muslim leader,he said succintly that the radical fought out of "romatic notion of east verses west" ,but they fight not for truth and justice,for if the did they would be championing the right of Darfur/sudan too..
So what do they fight for?
Revenge?
For Iraqis and Afghan?
For radicals,the same notion applies tot he coaltiion of the willing.
For Sep 11,the US and its allies attacked and killed more then 100 000 human being men womena dn children are killed.
Is that not an act of revenge?
Yes in the simpleset terms.
To be safe,the US take the offensive to the enmies lands.
That is what is happeing and will happen unless somthign happens to arrest this slide.
The radicals are fighting as they see it,a defence.
As all military commander knows,the best defence is offense.
Looking thru our human history we have seen that war does not end till the aggresors has been brought down low in their own land..
Take a look at WW1 and WW2.
thus using such notion,the radicals are trying to create harm in the lands of the enemies.To bring pain and suffering to their opponets as theya re feeling now.
But for both sides the action are wrong,revenge is not the onus on the non vitims but rahter the victims.
The majority must not pay for the deeds of the few.
And thus we need to come to a consensus of LAW and Order.
that all of mankind shall be punishable by law by their deeds.
We cannot expect to punish other for the same deeeds we do.
As an example,a soldier in Iraq should be punished int eh same manner as the bombers in the UK,if the harm done is equal and the loss is equal.
as of now the rule of law is dependant on religion and nationlaity.
Another exaple,if Saddam has faced trial for murder of Iraqs,should not the Bush too be tried for the murder of the Iraqis?
Law must be upheld,people must be given the sense of justice before peace can come.
If law is gone then the law of arms come to play.
Thus is corruption always lead to violence.
''Law must be upheld,people must be given the sense of justice before peace can come.''
Whose Law, to be interpreted under whose value system ?
From a recent BBC report of a survey done on the Islamic Leadership in Mosques in UK - it was a shocking revelation that most these mosques are led by imams who are not even locally born in the UK.
Most of the Imams preaching in UK mosques were employed from the traditional Islamic countries with training found to date back to Medievial Times, and without any training or knowledge about 'Life in a Plural Society', nor even about ''Life in the 21st Century'', nor the understanding of social problems of Life in UK.
Worst still, the survey found that the majority of the Imam were preaching in Arabic and the Urdhu tongue of the mainly Pakistani communities in UK, and unable to even communicate with the younger Muslims born and raised entirely in UK and unfamiliar with their own ethnic tongue.
How could such religious leaders guide their flock in the controversies that already exist in normal life ?
How will such a community ever possibly assimilate into Main Stream UK life, as is happening in Singapore, where the government has forcibly moved a minimum standard of politically acceptable behaviour from the Imams preaching in Singapore Mosques ?
The lack of political supervision and any political agenda by the UK Government is typical of the British democratic approach, and has resulted in the UK Muslim community to grow as ''A Nation WITHIN A Nation''.
If a Community refused to recognise its place in the 21st Century, and will not accept to see progress in its main political motivation - which is its Religion - how can any Community assimilate into and find its own place in the 21st Century Global Community ?
Is it any wonder that radicalism takes root amongst the Younger Muslims in UK ?
With the Relgious Leadership imbued in the values of Medievial Times, is it not surprising that ''Neutral Communities'' across the globe has found Islamic Values to be an anomaly to 21st Century global values of Human Rights, Women's Rights, Individual Rights, Political Freedom, Equality, Social Progress through Science, Knowledge and Justice ?
What is the purpose of your posts except an attempt to justify the unjustifiable actions taken by some to seek their version and narrow interpretation of justice, law and order ? -
More Iraqis were vicitms of Iraqi and foreign Jihadis- by suicide bombings and murders.
The coalition forces did not take so many lives. -
Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Are you providing the reasons ''for the Muslims to colonise UK'' now that their population in the UK has reached a criticial mass ?
Salaam,
Just wish to point out that almost every coutnry includin the US started with a minority who grew belligernt when their number massed up and asserted their right,egthe war with the indians...
Same goes for the Australia and South Africa.
such situation are the normal cycle of human transfers.
You must be dreaming to make such comparisons that you have given, as those who migrated as colonist in New Territories were more powerful than the native residents - and had shamedlessly subjugated the Red Indians in North America, Aborigenes in Australia, and the natives in South Africa.
Unfortunately, those communities were backward and remained backward to this day except for the South Africans, who uplifted themselves with education and assimilation into the 21st Century.
Do you think that such a debate will lead to any successful outcome ?
Even int he US there is a debate on wheter the Latinos should sing the National anthem in their own language..LOL..
For a debate such as this to even happen, merely reflect the openess of the system in the USA.
Will such a debate even exist in any Middle-eastern Countries, whose Islamic Religion has been given generous space by the Global Communities, but whose other Global Religions have not been similarly well treated nor accomodated in their exclusively politically protected Islamic countries ?
This line of debate serves no purpose.
What is the basis of your claim in ''the number of muslims in the western world is huge they are under represented and their views unheards'' ?
For a race to be assimilated then it must be duly representated in the goverment,as of now even tho the number of muslim in the western world is huge they are under represented and their views unheards.
This simply show your limited exposure but dependant on the typical zenophobic outcry that typify a selfish mind.
Are you aware that while your traditional Imams are trained in the Middle-east and Pakistani madrasahs based on the methods and studies that date back to 'Medievial Times' - it is the Western Countries that are making efforts to support their domestic Muslim faithfuls by providing ''21st Century Training of Imams'' that are revelant to the needs of their Communities in this MODERN AGE ?
In Holland, a master plan has been created for Dutch universities to train the imams who preach in the country's 436 mosques.The government has singled out imams as key influences on the young and is demanding that they must preach a moderate Islam in tune with traditionally liberal Dutch society. Nearly all imams now in the Netherlands have been "imported" from abroad, mostly from Morocco and Turkey, where most of the one million Muslims here come from. Many come only for a few years, speak no Dutch, and have little idea of life in Europe.
"They preach like they preached back home in the mountains," said Professor Henk Vroom of Amsterdam's Free University. "They tell the Muslims not to have contact with non-believers, and the people leave the mosque and see nothing but non-believers around them. What are they supposed to do?"
Does consuming of each other's community dishes indicate ''integration'' or simply a ''gastronomic adventurism'' ?
races irregardless of majority or minority will always somehow be integrated into one another,do any chinese person not eat prata or cook curry or eat chilli crab?
Or dont any malay eat hor fun,or char siew pow,,albeit halal ones?
ever heard of Singlish?LOL
such interaction is inevitable,but the barriers are rising not due to differnces but due DESIRE NOT TO INTEGRATE,,maybe by both sides or by one side.
Social integration is more than gastronomic, and will require an acceptance of social and political values of the host country.
Can Imams re-interprete traditional Islamic teachings and abandon its 'Medievial Values', to accomodate the 21st Century Values from this modern Global Community ?
Your statement do not reflect the Muslim migrants accepting the environments of the Host Country, but EXPECT the HOST Country to accept the ancient medievial values and traditions of the Muslim migrants.
I believe that in the future more and more countries will have no choice but to cater to and support Islmaic views,as population makes a poltitician.
No need to go that far, Singapore alone has shown our Muslim brethens to out-perform the other ethnic communities, despite being in the group being in need of most economical and social help.
Inshallah,you can check for the birth rate of muslim in western coutnries as compared to their counterparts.
A good comparision would be Palestine and Isrealis
Palestinian birth rate is 3~4X while the Isrealis are stagnant..
Are you ready for living in the 21st Century ? -
Goes to show, these days, you can't even trust doctors, especially parasitic ones.
-
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
Thank you for your backhanded admiration of my perceived skills.
Flaming others, causing havoc and calling names are the specialties of Atobe and company. Those skills I haven't mastered...
I have yet to learn and master the 'Art of Plagiarism', 'One-Dimensional Thinking', 'Hollow Arrogance', 'Facsist Power', and the fine 'Art of Obnoxity'.
Your must admit that one cannot possibly learn - or even attempt to master - everything in one's life time. -
Singapore better check the masadrahs here
-
That's amazing!Originally posted by Atobe:Thank you for your backhanded admiration of my perceived skills.
I have yet to learn and master the 'Art of Plagiarism', 'One-Dimensional Thinking', 'Hollow Arrogance', 'Facsist Power', and the fine 'Art of Obnoxity'.
Your must admit that one cannot possibly learn - or even attempt to master - everything in one's life time.
OM holds more titles than you! -
OM was being modest about his other titles?Originally posted by ShutterBug:That's amazing!
OM holds more titles than you!
Hehehe.... -
george bush is the biggest terrorist around.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
As many have read the war on terror has not made the world safer but more dangerous.
After SEp 11,the world even the muslim world supported the right of defence and attack on the taliban.
But after the attack on Iraq under the pretense of weapons of mass destruction,and the unraveling of the lies and the gruesome and barbaric action of the Coaltition in iraq and afghan has undermined the "higher moral" of the US and it war on terror.
As is the latest UK blast,i forsee more and more shall happen in the world.
Reading a very insightful by a UK Muslim leader,he said succintly that the radical fought out of "romatic notion of east verses west" ,but they fight not for truth and justice,for if the did they would be championing the right of Darfur/sudan too..
So what do they fight for?
Revenge?
For Iraqis and Afghan?
For radicals,the same notion applies tot he coaltiion of the willing.
For Sep 11,the US and its allies attacked and killed more then 100 000 human being men womena dn children are killed.
Is that not an act of revenge?
Yes in the simpleset terms.
To be safe,the US take the offensive to the enmies lands.
That is what is happeing and will happen unless somthign happens to arrest this slide.
The radicals are fighting as they see it,a defence.
As all military commander knows,the best defence is offense.
Looking thru our human history we have seen that war does not end till the aggresors has been brought down low in their own land..
Take a look at WW1 and WW2.
thus using such notion,the radicals are trying to create harm in the lands of the enemies.To bring pain and suffering to their opponets as theya re feeling now.
But for both sides the action are wrong,revenge is not the onus on the non vitims but rahter the victims.
The majority must not pay for the deeds of the few.
And thus we need to come to a consensus of LAW and Order.
that all of mankind shall be punishable by law by their deeds.
We cannot expect to punish other for the same deeeds we do.
As an example,a soldier in Iraq should be punished int eh same manner as the bombers in the UK,if the harm done is equal and the loss is equal.
as of now the rule of law is dependant on religion and nationlaity.
Another exaple,if Saddam has faced trial for murder of Iraqs,should not the Bush too be tried for the murder of the Iraqis?
Law must be upheld,people must be given the sense of justice before peace can come.
If law is gone then the law of arms come to play.
Thus is corruption always lead to violence. -
Originally posted by crazy monkey:
When monkeys go amok to terrorise a Community, and will not be pacified with bananas or peanuts - the next best thing to do to remove the nuisance is to shoot those ''crazy monkeys''.
george bush is the biggest terrorist around.
We should be grateful that 'George Bush is the Biggest Terrorist around' - to terrorise those ''Crazy Monkeys'' with his - ''You can run, but you cannot hide'' approach.
He has spent trillions of US Dollars from the US Treasury, and young American Lives in the fight against the 'crazy terrorists' who will dare to impose their 'Medievial Values' on Citizens of the Free World.
With the likes of Zulkiflim, who believe that the Free World ''have no choice but to accept Islamization'' - (he stopped short in saying: ''by hook or by crook'' ) - is there any choice but to welcome the likes of George Bush to spend US Lives and Money to counter dangerous ''crazy monkeys'' let loose to terrorise World Peace ?
We should be grateful that Jimmy Carter was not the President, when Osama Bin Laden decided to throw his dice on New York City on 9/11.
The peanut farmer who became a US President will produce a ''peanut sized political reaction'' - given his performance in office when the US Embassy was seized by the Iranians.
George Bush's characteristic ''Texan cowboy'' shoot from the hip, gun blasting approach demolished Osama and his Taleban hosts in Afghanistan, and freed the Afghans from the tyranny of the Talebans - who subjected an entire population to live in Medievial Times.
You should be grateful that Singaporeans need not be in the forefront to fight the ''crazy monkeys'' like the US and some other nations.
Can Singapore bring the fight to Osama if he had attacked Singapore instead of New York City ?
Fight ''fire with fire'' - when there is a fire storm in the forest, the only way to stop the fire is to burn - under control - large tracts of forest land before the oncoming fire, so as to cut off any additional fuel that will feed the fire. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Salaam,
Perceptions, perceptions, perceptions.....
[b]''Law must be upheld,people must be given the sense of justice before peace can come.''
Whose Law, to be interpreted under whose value system ?
From a recent BBC report of a survey done on the Islamic Leadership in Mosques in UK - it was a shocking revelation that most these mosques are led by imams who are not even locally born in the UK.
Most of the Imams preaching in UK mosques were employed from the traditional Islamic countries with training found to date back to Medievial Times, and without any training or knowledge about 'Life in a Plural Society', nor even about ''Life in the 21st Century'', nor the understanding of social problems of Life in UK.
Worst still, the survey found that the majority of the Imam were preaching in Arabic and the Urdhu tongue of the mainly Pakistani communities in UK, and unable to even communicate with the younger Muslims born and raised entirely in UK and unfamiliar with their own ethnic tongue.
How could such religious leaders guide their flock in the controversies that already exist in normal life ?
How will such a community ever possibly assimilate into Main Stream UK life, as is happening in Singapore, where the government has forcibly moved a minimum standard of politically acceptable behaviour from the Imams preaching in Singapore Mosques ?
The lack of political supervision and any political agenda by the UK Government is typical of the British democratic approach, and has resulted in the UK Muslim community to grow as ''A Nation WITHIN A Nation''.
If a Community refused to recognise its place in the 21st Century, and will not accept to see progress in its main political motivation - which is its Religion - how can any Community assimilate into and find its own place in the 21st Century Global Community ?
Is it any wonder that radicalism takes root amongst the Younger Muslims in UK ?
With the Relgious Leadership imbued in the values of Medievial Times, is it not surprising that ''Neutral Communities'' across the globe has found Islamic Values to be an anomaly to 21st Century global values of Human Rights, Women's Rights, Individual Rights, Political Freedom, Equality, Social Progress through Science, Knowledge and Justice ?
What is the purpose of your posts except an attempt to justify the unjustifiable actions taken by some to seek their version and narrow interpretation of justice, law and order ?
[/b]
Imams taught in mideval times?
well Islam has been around for 1400 years and the Quran is till now.
So it is a medieval religion,,LOL..
But not barbaric as it places law and acountability above all else.
From your post,it seems that you take offesnce from having foreign Imam?
And for imams speaking in Arabic or Urdhu?
Do you take offense for Imams who speak in english? Malays? Spanish?
In every land where muslim are we pray in Arabic,thus it is common for most muslim to speak 2 to 5 languages.
The Quran came down in Arabic,and most read it is their own interpreted language.
Hopefully you know that tehre are many Interpretation of the Quran in the world languages.
But i do agree that Imams are to be leaders who should be able to communicate to the masses,but that dont mena the Imams should not impress on the populace to not speak Arabic or to not read the Quran.
So language is no barrier.
And for Islam in Singapore it is the same as is practised in the entire world,we pray the same,we fast and we have the same idealogies.Muslim in singapore support Palestinian and do not support terrorism by ANY hands.
But radicalism comes to one and all who read the papers and atrocities that is done unto muslim by western hands,thus the last bruhaha about the Singaporean lawyer who went to fight in Afghan/Iraq..
He was not radicalised by Islam,but rahter by what is happenign in the world,in the perception of the western world against Islam.
Such Islam does not brred violnce but violnce breed violence.
also being in the 21first centurty given the state we are in is not an enviable postion,we are technologically advanced but yet we have never evolved past the greed of lust and power.
As is noted by many,the western world invasion of the Iraq is due to OIL not for democracy nor for the citizens of Iraq.
Such a move by the most technologically advanced and "democratic 21st centruy coutnry" shows trully the status of the world.
We have never moved past the links of barriers.
Need for power and security of a certain race,nationalityor religon is paramount. -
Salaam,Originally posted by Atobe:No need to go that far, Singapore alone has shown our Muslim brethens to out-perform the other ethnic communities, despite being in the group being in need of most economical and social help.
Are you ready for living in the 21st Century ?Are you providing the reasons ''for the Muslims to colonise UK'' now that their population in the UK has reached a criticial mass ?
Salaam,
You must be dreaming to make such comparisons that you have given, as those who migrated as colonist in New Territories were more powerful than the native residents - and had shamedlessly subjugated the Red Indians in North America, Aborigenes in Australia, and the natives in South Africa.
Unfortunately, those communities were backward and remained backward to this day except for the South Africans, who uplifted themselves with education and assimilation into the 21st Century.
Is might right?
Should you enslave and seek dominion just becasue othersa re lesser than you?
But i am happy that you do accept that the hostory did show that US,South Africa dn Australia did subjugate and oppresee and went to war after their population grew and found the restriction of the indigenous people unbearable.
As the verse goes,as a that can fly will always wish to fly free..
And i amnot providing reason,i am merely showing you historical fact that any race of any religion WILL enforce their right when they become a majority minority.
can you tell me,what is your definition of living in the 21st century?Do you think that such a debate will lead to any successful outcome ?
Actually,as i have said,the US goverment are AGAINST the Latinos singing the anthem in their language.
For a debate such as this to even happen, merely reflect the openess of the system in the USA.
Will such a debate even exist in any Middle-eastern Countries, whose Islamic Religion has been given generous space by the Global Communities, but whose other Global Religions have not been similarly well treated nor accomodated in their exclusively politically protected Islamic countries ?
This line of debate serves no purpose.
So in this instacne the Latinos are using their numbers to support thier culture and identity,to assimilate but not to forget who they are.
And in Islamic coutnries,many coem from different races.
We look different have different skin but have one faith.
We may speak differnt but they way we pray is the same.
So Islam does not erode your culture not race not nationality,it is but a part of it.What is the basis of your claim in ''the number of muslims in the western world is huge they are under represented and their views unheards'' ?
MM,,i am confused,here i am talking about representation in the goverment while you are talking about...mideval teaching of imams?
This simply show your limited exposure but dependant on the typical zenophobic outcry that typify a selfish mind.
Are you aware that while your traditional Imams are trained in the Middle-east and Pakistani madrasahs based on the methods and studies that date back to 'Medievial Times' - it is the Western Countries that are making efforts to support their domestic Muslim faithfuls by providing ''21st Century Training of Imams'' that are revelant to the needs of their Communities in this MODERN AGE ?
In Holland, a master plan has been created for Dutch universities to train the imams who preach in the country's 436 mosques.
In Islam to be an Imam is simple,you just need to learn the Qurna and Sunnah,that is all.
the quran remain the same for 1400 years and the Sunnah has been compiled 100 years after the Propehts Muhammad saw death.
They remain available for one and all to read and learn.
And in China the Chinese have their own taught Imams,Singapore Imam mostly comes from Al Azhar university.Or some even from other arabs coutnries.
And in Islam there is no such thing as moderate or extremist,if you are a muslim then you are a muslim.
The laws of Islam cannot be changed to suit mankind but rahter for mankind to suit it.
We have many laws that makes us unhappy but it is the right thing to do.
An exaple.Islam is the only religion that command a man to marry only one wife and if one can afford to maximum 4.
And the stipulation in the world fair mean,what ever one wife has,another should aslo have.
An eg,if one were to have a bungalow,the other has the right to one,a diamond ring and so on..
Homosexuality is to be condemned in islam.Does consuming of each other's community dishes indicate ''integration'' or simply a ''gastronomic adventurism'' ?
food is also play a part of integration,it is na ice breaker if you will.
Social integration is more than gastronomic, and will require an acceptance of social and political values of the host country.
Can Imams re-interprete traditional Islamic teachings and abandon its 'Medievial Values', to accomodate the 21st Century Values from this modern Global Community ?
take singalish,would we have it if we dont talk to each toehr,we assimilate and integrate.
And the laws of Islam does not change to suit man.
Allah sent Islam for a guindace for men,not for its amendment.
Our creators knows us best.Your statement do not reflect the Muslim migrants accepting the environments of the Host Country, but EXPECT the HOST Country to accept the ancient medievial values and traditions of the Muslim migrants.
No i do not expect anyone to conform to their host coutnry if they are an immigrant.
Would a Chinese forget his heritage and culture just becasue he is ABC(American Born Chinese)..no
Is there no chinatown in every US township?
Is not Mandarin or any other oreintal language used in such palces?
can yu tell me of one law that you would consider midieval?Or many if you can,we can discuss it..No need to go that far, Singapore alone has shown our Muslim brethens to out-perform the other ethnic communities, despite being in the group being in need of most economical and social help.
Muslim brethren outperfrom other ethnic communities?
Are you ready for living in the 21st Century ?
cna you provide some detail casue it is a bit vague.
And i am living in the 21st cettury,and Islam is for all of time till the end.
inshallah -
Salaam,Originally posted by Atobe:When monkeys go amok to terrorise a Community, and will not be pacified with bananas or peanuts - the next best thing to do to remove the nuisance is to shoot those ''crazy monkeys''.
We should be grateful that 'George Bush is the Biggest Terrorist around' - to terrorise those ''Crazy Monkeys'' with his - ''You can run, but you cannot hide'' approach.
He has spent trillions of US Dollars from the US Treasury, and young American Lives in the fight against the 'crazy terrorists' who will dare to impose their 'Medievial Values' on Citizens of the Free World.
With the likes of Zulkiflim, who believe that the Free World ''have no choice but to accept Islamization'' - (he stopped short in saying: ''by hook or by crook'' ) - is there any choice but to welcome the likes of George Bush to spend US Lives and Money to counter dangerous ''crazy monkeys'' let loose to terrorise World Peace ?
We should be grateful that Jimmy Carter was not the President, when Osama Bin Laden decided to throw his dice on New York City on 9/11.
The peanut farmer who became a US President will produce a ''peanut sized political reaction'' - given his performance in office when the US Embassy was seized by the Iranians.
George Bush's characteristic ''Texan cowboy'' shoot from the hip, gun blasting approach demolished Osama and his Taleban hosts in Afghanistan, and freed the Afghans from the tyranny of the Talebans - who subjected an entire population to live in Medievial Times.
You should be grateful that Singaporeans need not be in the forefront to fight the ''crazy monkeys'' like the US and some other nations.
Can Singapore bring the fight to Osama if he had attacked Singapore instead of New York City ?
Fight ''fire with fire'' - when there is a fire storm in the forest, the only way to stop the fire is to burn - under control - large tracts of forest land before the oncoming fire, so as to cut off any additional fuel that will feed the fire.
thank for proving my point,offense is the best defence.
And thus the cycle continue...
the only way to end it is for all human irregardless of race religon and nationlaity be accoutnable for their own action.
But now US have the "protection" to what it want to wihout the rule of law.
Mass murders are collateral damage wihout recourse.
Shock and AWE...every day the Iraqis and Afghan face. -
The facts of history is that the Americas, Africa and Australia were wide expanse of land, and the tides of history has it that the more powerful has always subjugated the weak, and so the human evolution continued through history - passing through several cycles of civilisations.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Originally posted by Atobe:
No need to go that far, Singapore alone has shown our Muslim brethens to out-perform the other ethnic communities, despite being in the group being in need of most economical and social help.
Are you ready for living in the 21st Century ?-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salaam,
Are you providing the reasons ''for the Muslims to colonise UK'' now that their population in the UK has reached a criticial mass ?
You must be dreaming to make such comparisons that you have given, as those who migrated as colonist in New Territories were more powerful than the native residents - and had shamedlessly subjugated the Red Indians in North America, Aborigenes in Australia, and the natives in South Africa.
Unfortunately, those communities were backward and remained backward to this day except for the South Africans, who uplifted themselves with education and assimilation into the 21st Century.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salaam,
Is might right?
Should you enslave and seek dominion just becasue othersa re lesser than you?
But i am happy that you do accept that the hostory did show that US,South Africa dn Australia did subjugate and oppresee and went to war after their population grew and found the restriction of the indigenous people unbearable.
As the verse goes,as a that can fly will always wish to fly free..
And i amnot providing reason,i am merely showing you historical fact that any race of any religion WILL enforce their right when they become a majority minority.
can you tell me,what is your definition of living in the 21st century?
Would you have history being repeated in this 21st Century - where the more powerful subjugate the weak ?
If History is to be followed in which the strong subjugate the weak for land that is not used - do you think the Muslim Migrants have any chance of accomplishing the same in the present Western Country ?
It was stupidity for Osama bin Laden to unleash a war on the World Community by targetting the World Trade Center - killing Muslims and Non-Muslims who were working and visiting the icon of New York City.
A majority cannot be a minority - and vice-versa. Your statement begin from a false premise and cannot be realised. It is plain nonsense.
If you have no understanding of what Life in this 21st Century is all about, can I blame you for your preferred manner of limiting your own choices and exposure ?Do you think that such a debate will lead to any successful outcome ?
For a debate such as this to even happen, merely reflect the openess of the system in the USA.
Will such a debate even exist in any Middle-eastern Countries, whose Islamic Religion has been given generous space by the Global Communities, but whose other Global Religions have not been similarly well treated nor accomodated in their exclusively politically protected Islamic countries ?
This line of debate serves no purpose.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually,as i have said,the US goverment are AGAINST the Latinos singing the anthem in their language.
So in this instacne the Latinos are using their numbers to support thier culture and identity,to assimilate but not to forget who they are.
And in Islamic coutnries,many coem from different races.
We look different have different skin but have one faith.
We may speak differnt but they way we pray is the same.
So Islam does not erode your culture not race not nationality,it is but a part of it.
Would you have the Malaysian Malays allow their Chinese or Indian or Eurasian Citizens sing ''Negara Ku'' in their respective mother tongue ? And likewise, the various Singaporean ethnic communities sing ''Majullah Singapura'' in the various languages and dialects ?
It is another one of those zeonphobic reasons that a minority will attempt to impose on the larger community.
It is another sheer nonsense that you will wish to project that in Islamic countries there are many races but only one faith.
Are you disputing the fact that in Islamic countries there are restrictions imposed on the development on other religions, when Islam is given unrestricted space and freedom to develop in other Countries that has its own Religion - which is characteristics to its own nationals ?
In any case, this thread is not for you to justify the future dominance of Islam - the ugly side has been falsely promoted by the hoodlums supported by Osama bin Laden and his narrow minded followers.
continuation below -
continuation
Your claim that Muslims are not represented in Government is false due to your limited knowledge of the existing events beyond your local religious knowledge.What is the basis of your claim in ''the number of muslims in the western world is huge they are under represented and their views unheards'' ?
This simply show your limited exposure but dependant on the typical zenophobic outcry that typify a selfish mind.
Are you aware that while your traditional Imams are trained in the Middle-east and Pakistani madrasahs based on the methods and studies that date back to 'Medievial Times' - it is the Western Countries that are making efforts to support their domestic Muslim faithfuls by providing ''21st Century Training of Imams'' that are revelant to the needs of their Communities in this MODERN AGE ?
In Holland, a master plan has been created for Dutch universities to train the imams who preach in the country's 436 mosques.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MM,,i am confused,here i am talking about representation in the goverment while you are talking about...mideval teaching of imams?
In Islam to be an Imam is simple,you just need to learn the Qurna and Sunnah,that is all.
the quran remain the same for 1400 years and the Sunnah has been compiled 100 years after the Propehts Muhammad saw death.
They remain available for one and all to read and learn.
And in China the Chinese have their own taught Imams,Singapore Imam mostly comes from Al Azhar university.Or some even from other arabs coutnries.
And in Islam there is no such thing as moderate or extremist,if you are a muslim then you are a muslim.
The laws of Islam cannot be changed to suit mankind but rahter for mankind to suit it.
We have many laws that makes us unhappy but it is the right thing to do.
An exaple.Islam is the only religion that command a man to marry only one wife and if one can afford to maximum 4.
And the stipulation in the world fair mean,what ever one wife has,another should aslo have.
An eg,if one were to have a bungalow,the other has the right to one,a diamond ring and so on..
Homosexuality is to be condemned in islam.
The fact that Muslims are not as well represented in Western Government is largely due to the poor 'Religious Leadership' in the Islamic Community that looked to Islam for guidance.
With the Islamic Religious Leaders being trained by rote learning and in a value system that is ''out-of-sync'' in a ''Plural Society'' of a Host Country in which everyone is seen as ''non-believers'' and not to be communicated with - can you expect the Host Country to accept anyone from the 'MINORITY' Muslim Community to be represented in any Western Government ?
This issue is being addressed by the Dutch in which Dutch Imams attending to Dutch Muslims are proposed to be trained in Holland, so as update these Imams with 21st Century knowledge, and not based on the ancient values and teachings of narrow interpretation of the Religion.
Assimilation is not merely gastronomic as I have already said.Does consuming of each other's community dishes indicate ''integration'' or simply a ''gastronomic adventurism'' ?
Social integration is more than gastronomic, and will require an acceptance of social and political values of the host country.
Can Imams re-interprete traditional Islamic teachings and abandon its 'Medievial Values', to accomodate the 21st Century Values from this modern Global Community ?-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
food is also play a part of integration,it is na ice breaker if you will.
take singalish,would we have it if we dont talk to each toehr,we assimilate and integrate.
And the laws of Islam does not change to suit man.
Allah sent Islam for a guindace for men,not for its amendment.
Our creators knows us best.
Assimilation into another community is the 'acceptance' and willingness to 'submit oneself' to the laws of an adopted host country.
continue below -
continue below
What was your point in emphasing on the productive performance of Muslims compared to other races - especially your emphasis towards Israel ?Your statement do not reflect the Muslim migrants accepting the environments of the Host Country, but EXPECT the HOST Country to accept the ancient medievial values and traditions of the Muslim migrants.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No i do not expect anyone to conform to their host coutnry if they are an immigrant.
Would a Chinese forget his heritage and culture just becasue he is ABC(American Born Chinese)..no
Is there no chinatown in every US township?
Is not Mandarin or any other oreintal language used in such palces?
can yu tell me of one law that you would consider midieval?Or many if you can,we can discuss it.. [/quote]
Are you being confused in understanding what has been posted ?
If you do not expect any migrant to conform to their host country then why should your be a migrant ?
I will welcome you into my house, and share the food with you, but I will expect you to respect my house rules, as much as I will respect your customs. However, DO NOT expect me or my family to accept your rules and customs being imposed on me.
If you cannot assimilate into my environment, please return to where you come from.
If I am a Hindu, or a Budhist, or a Chrisian - and as a migrant to your Islamic Country, can I demand that I will not conform to your social, cultural, religious, economic and political practices of your Islamic society ? Can I demand that Hindu Law, Christian Law or Budhist Law be specially applied to myself and my community that is living in your Islamic Country ?
Can the Syriah Law - based on values from a Medievial Period of the History of Manking - be compatible with the Laws of any country in this 21st Century ?
[quote]No need to go that far, Singapore alone has shown our Muslim brethens to out-perform the other ethnic communities, despite being in the group being in need of most economical and social help.
Are you ready for living in the 21st Century ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Muslim brethren outperfrom other ethnic communities?
cna you provide some detail casue it is a bit vague.
And i am living in the 21st cettury,and Islam is for all of time till the end.
inshallah
Is there any point in chosen jingoistic line of debate ?
Has the brilliant performance of the Malay birthrates in Singapore - compared with the other races - proved anything except to burden those Malays in the lower income group with more mouths to feed, marital breakdowns, divorces, broken homes, delinquent kids, drug abuses and all kinds of social problems given the size of their population when compared to the other ethnic groups ?
This remain the same for the other Islamic countries with uncontrolled birthrates that remained in the Third World despite their wealth in natural resources and human population size.
You maybe living in the 21 Century, but unfortunately are you part of it ? -
Why do you need me to prove your point, when you are already a capable advocate to using violence as a premedidated tool to enforce your own rights - which is probably part of your trained thought process in interpreting the archaic Syriah Laws based on medievial value system ?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Original post by Atobe:
When monkeys go amok to terrorise a Community, and will not be pacified with bananas or peanuts - the next best thing to do to remove the nuisance is to shoot those ''crazy monkeys''.
We should be grateful that 'George Bush is the Biggest Terrorist around' - to terrorise those ''Crazy Monkeys'' with his - ''You can run, but you cannot hide'' approach.
He has spent trillions of US Dollars from the US Treasury, and young American Lives in the fight against the 'crazy terrorists' who will dare to impose their 'Medievial Values' on Citizens of the Free World.
With the likes of Zulkiflim, who believe that the Free World ''have no choice but to accept Islamization'' - (he stopped short in saying: ''by hook or by crook'' ) - is there any choice but to welcome the likes of George Bush to spend US Lives and Money to counter dangerous ''crazy monkeys'' let loose to terrorise World Peace ?
We should be grateful that Jimmy Carter was not the President, when Osama Bin Laden decided to throw his dice on New York City on 9/11.
The peanut farmer who became a US President will produce a ''peanut sized political reaction'' - given his performance in office when the US Embassy was seized by the Iranians.
George Bush's characteristic ''Texan cowboy'' shoot from the hip, gun blasting approach demolished Osama and his Taleban hosts in Afghanistan, and freed the Afghans from the tyranny of the Talebans - who subjected an entire population to live in Medievial Times.
You should be grateful that Singaporeans need not be in the forefront to fight the ''crazy monkeys'' like the US and some other nations.
Can Singapore bring the fight to Osama if he had attacked Singapore instead of New York City ?
Fight ''fire with fire'' - when there is a fire storm in the forest, the only way to stop the fire is to burn - under control - large tracts of forest land before the oncoming fire, so as to cut off any additional fuel that will feed the fire.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salaam,
thank for proving my point,offense is the best defence.
And thus the cycle continue...
the only way to end it is for all human irregardless of race religon and nationlaity be accoutnable for their own action.
But now US have the "protection" to what it want to wihout the rule of law.
Mass murders are collateral damage wihout recourse.
Shock and AWE...every day the Iraqis and Afghan face.
The indiscriminate mass murder and collateral damage without recourse have been more purposefully practised by the Islamic Jihadists - even towards their own Muslim brethens.
Do you think the truck bombs and suicide bombings are conducted by US and Coalition Military, or the New Iraqi Military towards local Iraqi citizens ?
If not for the US and coalition armies, Sadam Hussein, his murderous sons, and his cronies will continue to rape and plunder Iraqi men, women and children without help from George Bush.
Whole Kurdish villages were wiped out by Chemical Ali, and Millions of Iranians were killed in the 7-Year war between Iraq and Iran - ALL were MUSLIMS.
Iraqi Muslim Sunnis and Iraqi Muslim Shiites are killing each other - in a struggle for political supremacy, with the Iraqi Shiites being grandly supported in their effort by Islamic Iran - who are majority from the Shiite sect of Islam.
The American and their Coalition Partners are sacrificing their young men and women to bring some normalcy back to Iraq, and if Iraqis have Muslim brothers like you, why should they need any enemies ? -
Salaam,
Reply to atobe..The facts of history is that the Americas, Africa and Australia were wide expanse of land, and the tides of history has it that the more powerful has always subjugated the weak, and so the human evolution continued through history - passing through several cycles of civilisations.
First off,alhamdulilah youa ccepted that this is a fact of hisotry,that as a minority grows to majority there will be clashes in the land.
Would you have history being repeated in this 21st Century - where the more powerful subjugate the weak ?
If History is to be followed in which the strong subjugate the weak for land that is not used - do you think the Muslim Migrants have any chance of accomplishing the same in the present Western Country ?
It was stupidity for Osama bin Laden to unleash a war on the World Community by targetting the World Trade Center - killing Muslims and Non-Muslims who were working and visiting the icon of New York City.
A majority cannot be a minority - and vice-versa. Your statement begin from a false premise and cannot be realised. It is plain nonsense.
If you have no understanding of what Life in this 21st Century is all about, can I blame you for your preferred manner of limiting your own choices and exposure ?
And the size of the land does not matter,what mattr is population of a town or city.
And in the 21 cntury it is happening all around where the powerful subjugat the weak.
Read the news of police brutality in the US,or the random acts of racism in after math of Katrina.
It is also happening in the UK,Russin even in SG.
When you say that if a strong force is avaibale to subjugte the weak then then the minority will not be able to stand up.
History has already shown us that the minority will win out.
An eg,,,US African American,a minority,slavery and so on,,they tood up and when their number grew too great,instead of civil war,the US WHIte power capitulate FOR IT HAS necome an accapeted fact that black or white are but human.
So in time in every land the minority if their birth rate increases and their culture remian,then it is ineveitable.
It is funny that you accept historical fact but yet deny what you wrote..LOL
Osama,started the World war.. a laughable notion..LOL..
An accusation is but an accusation if there is no proof then there is no Justice.
If we were to go strongly by US intelligence then assuredly Iraq will have WMD,but as we now know and have always know,the US does what it does for its own reason,,neihter honourable nor right.Would you have the Malaysian Malays allow their Chinese or Indian or Eurasian Citizens sing ''Negara Ku'' in their respective mother tongue ? And likewise, the various Singaporean ethnic communities sing ''Majullah Singapura'' in the various languages and dialects ?
I have never heard of any ethnic in malaysia desiring to sing their national anthem in their own language.
It is another one of those zeonphobic reasons that a minority will attempt to impose on the larger community.
It is another sheer nonsense that you will wish to project that in Islamic countries there are many races but only one faith.
Are you disputing the fact that in Islamic countries there are restrictions imposed on the development on other religions, when Islam is given unrestricted space and freedom to develop in other Countries that has its own Religion - which is characteristics to its own nationals ?
In any case, this thread is not for you to justify the future dominance of Islam - the ugly side has been falsely promoted by the hoodlums supported by Osama bin Laden and his narrow minded followers.
Or in SG,i heard that the the GOV did ask but people of all races said the Malay language is Singapore.
Also,for Malaysia,the number of Chinse is in descent,just like in SG,the Chinese Singaporean birth rate as the goverment said is "unreplenishable".
So again the Chinese is in decline.
And what is nonsense that in islam we have many racs but of one faith.
take for expale Singapore,malay are muslim,so are chinese and so are indian so are caucasion.
It is the same thruout the world,differnt races/nationality smae religon..
And as far as i know only Saudi Arabia restrict the propagation of of other reliogn.But that reason is simple,Makkah is the Holiest site in Islam and there are no non muslim there,so would it be justified to have buiding of other faith when there are no adherents?
Also Sauid Arabia do hire lots of non muslim but they are not forced to convert but are allowed to pray in their own but they are not allowed to preach.
Hope you cna provide more coutnries if you are able..
can you provide more and the link thanks.
And this thread is not to promote the future dominanc of Islam,alhamdulilah you agree) but raher to show why the radical do as they do.
And the funny part is that i i do not use the word Osama,or in support but you continuously do...and your assertion that other do too..LOL -
Salaam,
Your claim that Muslims are not represented in Government is false due to your limited knowledge of the existing events beyond your local religious knowledge.
Just wish to point out that you did conradict yourself in the first 2 paragraphs...
The fact that Muslims are not as well represented in Western Government is largely due to the poor 'Religious Leadership' in the Islamic Community that looked to Islam for guidance.
With the Islamic Religious Leaders being trained by rote learning and in a value system that is ''out-of-sync'' in a ''Plural Society'' of a Host Country in which everyone is seen as ''non-believers'' and not to be communicated with - can you expect the Host Country to accept anyone from the 'MINORITY' Muslim Community to be represented in any Western Government ?
This issue is being addressed by the Dutch in which Dutch Imams attending to Dutch Muslims are proposed to be trained in Holland, so as update these Imams with 21st Century knowledge, and not based on the ancient values and teachings of narrow interpretation of the Religion.
On one hand you say that they are represented then you say they are not.
In actual fact,Islam is life,it also covers the Politics,the Prophet Muhamamd saw was not only a Messenger of Allah but also the Head of State.
It is only now that Muslim population have grown to a large extent and seen the action of the Americna and Europen brethren ,do they now take an interest in Politics for the good of the muslim Ummah.
I hope you do know that there is now ONE muslim senator?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Ellison_(politician)
And i hope you do know that Imam from arab coutnry who fly around are limited in number and those who are actually in the coutnry make their own imams.
I just hope you dont think that the entire arab world actually goes around the world to be Imam in foreign places ignoring their own house.
And the Dutch are doing is also a sign of the power of the Musim majority,they see the need for an in bred Duth Imam, who speak dutch,but he will aslo need to learn arabic.
For no person can be an imam if he does not know how to read the Quran in Arabic,translation are not accpetable.Assimilation is not merely gastronomic as I have already said.
Submitting oneself to the law of the land is differnt from being integrated.
Assimilation into another community is the 'acceptance' and willingness to 'submit oneself' to the laws of an adopted host country.
Muslim can go to an land and submit themselves to the law of the land for they dont contradict Islam.
cna you give me an explae of a coutnry that explicitly forces men and women to fornicate daily with strangers and to make "friends" with gays and lesbian?
Can you give me antoher coutnry that say,its people must dring alchohol daily?
Or to eat pork daily?
Such laws would b contrary to Islamic teaching,as it TO ALL THE WORLDS NATIONS.
So language and food are best sign of integration.
No one does the best rojak like the Indian and such we go to the Indian.
no one does the best Nasi lemaks as the malays so we go to the Malays
No one does the best Tofu like the chinese so we go to the chinese. -
Salaam,
Are you being confused in understanding what has been posted ?
i think i already answered you,do the Chinese in every wesrn antion abandon thir reliogn and accept the host country faith?
If you do not expect any migrant to conform to their host country then why should your be a migrant ?
I will welcome you into my house, and share the food with you, but I will expect you to respect my house rules, as much as I will respect your customs. However, DO NOT expect me or my family to accept your rules and customs being imposed on me.
If you cannot assimilate into my environment, please return to where you come from.
If I am a Hindu, or a Budhist, or a Chrisian - and as a migrant to your Islamic Country, can I demand that I will not conform to your social, cultural, religious, economic and political practices of your Islamic society ? Can I demand that Hindu Law, Christian Law or Budhist Law be specially applied to myself and my community that is living in your Islamic Country ?
Can the Syriah Law - based on values from a Medievial Period of the History of Manking - be compatible with the Laws of any country in this 21st Century ?
Is there no Chinatown in every City?LOL
Also when you say that people who cant integrate into their soviety,they should then leave..Well my IC say i am a Malay and so is not Singapura a Malay land?
Are you a Maly and have you integraed into Malays custom and rituals?
It is like saying that Australian adn Americna should return to the UK for they never conformed to the natives of that land.LOL
guess we should expect mass immigration soon..
LOL
And under Islam,we do not force conversion,and the laws of your reliogn is binding to you,we do not enforce it.
But if you are a foreigner in a muslim land,then by your own ideas,they should "submit" to the will of the lands,is that not right?
the Shariah laws are compatible wiht the 21 century,i would be more than happy to answer your doubts,but cna you make a new thread for that...shukran..