UK terror suspects all linked to NHS
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Salaam,
What was your point in emphasing on the productive performance of Muslims compared to other races - especially your emphasis towards Israel ?
umm iso are you able to privde data on your asertion of prodcutive performance of Muslim.
Is there any point in chosen jingoistic line of debate ?
Has the brilliant performance of the Malay birthrates in Singapore - compared with the other races - proved anything except to burden those Malays in the lower income group with more mouths to feed, marital breakdowns, divorces, broken homes, delinquent kids, drug abuses and all kinds of social problems given the size of their population when compared to the other ethnic groups ?
This remain the same for the other Islamic countries with uncontrolled birthrates that remained in the Third World despite their wealth in natural resources and human population size.
You maybe living in the 21 Century, but unfortunately are you part of it ?
I have no idea of the avialability of the statistic,so pls fill in my ignorance and provide the data..thanks..
And this debate is about filling both of with each othr point of view,what is the point of saying a statement wihout facts?
And just to point out a fct,can you tell me of 2 families one with one child and the other with 5 children,,who would be more affluent?
Who will live the lifestyle they choose.
The western world and Sg have done much to curb the lack of birth rate but in all their effort they do not check the fundamental problem that is selfsihness.
We all desire to live the life we want,in happiness and confort,but will children give us these material comforts?
NO,,and that is what happening thruout the entire first world,material comfort before families.
Hope you cna provide me wiht the data thanks.. -
Shalom,Originally posted by Zulkiflim:Salaam,
as of now the rule of law is dependant on religion and nationlaity.
Another exaple,if Saddam has faced trial for murder of Iraqs,should not the Bush too be tried for the murder of the Iraqis?
The rule of law is dependant upon religion and nationality? May I know what religion is the rule of law in Singapore? Taoist, Christianity, Buddhist, Islam, Hindu, Judaism, Jainism, etc?
Rule of law might have something to do with religion in ancient times, where religion and governance is related, like the monarchies of England where church and King form close nexus.
During the cultural revolution in China, where religion is persecuted because it opposes the Marxist-Lennist and Maoist ideology. In such a case, does your logic on the rule of law being dependant on religion still apply?
The rule of law in a country is dependant on the political progress of the nation, obviously if one country chooses to remain monarchy, where the rule of law resides with the King and the King using the instrument of religion to enforce civil obedience. Then the punishment meted out should be according to the laws of that religion. In some countries, archaic inhumane forms of punishments are still being performed (e.g. stoning, drowning, burning, horses ripping apart bodies from limb to limb, etc).
Between Saddam and Bush, there is a difference between Genocide and War. I do not justify the war wage by US on Iraq is right, but it seemed like the only way the other half of the population could be liberated and protected from further persecutions. -
Salaam,
Why do you need me to prove your point, when you are already a capable advocate to using violence as a premedidated tool to enforce your own rights - which is probably part of your trained thought process in interpreting the archaic Syriah Laws based on medievial value system ?
May i ask,if you say that i am backward but may i ask where you come from?
The indiscriminate mass murder and collateral damage without recourse have been more purposefully practised by the Islamic Jihadists - even towards their own Muslim brethens.
Do you think the truck bombs and suicide bombings are conducted by US and Coalition Military, or the New Iraqi Military towards local Iraqi citizens ?
If not for the US and coalition armies, Sadam Hussein, his murderous sons, and his cronies will continue to rape and plunder Iraqi men, women and children without help from George Bush.
Whole Kurdish villages were wiped out by Chemical Ali, and Millions of Iranians were killed in the 7-Year war between Iraq and Iran - ALL were MUSLIMS.
Iraqi Muslim Sunnis and Iraqi Muslim Shiites are killing each other - in a struggle for political supremacy, with the Iraqi Shiites being grandly supported in their effort by Islamic Iran - who are majority from the Shiite sect of Islam.
The American and their Coalition Partners are sacrificing their young men and women to bring some normalcy back to Iraq, and if Iraqis have Muslim brothers like you, why should they need any enemies ?
Did you not just advocate murder on a mass scale to kill the "crazy monkeys"
And you did prove my point that you share the reasoning as hose you calim are backward
you support violence as the means to an ends.
While i say that becasue of the lack of law,the violence erupts.
Also Saddm was in power due to the US support.not lack of it.
the US gave saddam WMD and knew he was killing his own people and iranians but kept silent.
All that is open proof from the world media..but which not a single US goverment is in court for.
You say that the American are sending their people for the good of Iraq,but why dont we just Iraqis.
the last polls say they view the US presence as the cause of the strife.
But do the iraqis views matter to you?
As for Saddam behaviour,you condemn it as do all Muslim but do you condemn those who aided saddamw ith WMD and kept silent while Saddam killed iranian and Kurds?
Did you kow that the US gave WMD to Saddam and kpt silent while he murdered Iranian and Iraqis?
Or will you not accpt the fact?
Something to read..Is the United States Killing 10,000 Iraqis Every Month? Or Is It More?
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/56124/
A state-of-the-art research study published in October 12, 2006 issue of The Lancet (the most prestigious British medical journal) concluded that -- as of a year ago -- 600,000 Iraqis had died violently due to the war in Iraq. That is, the Iraqi death rate for the first 39 months of the war was just about 15,000 per month.
Reputable researchers have accepted the Lancet study's results as valid with virtually no dissent. Juan Cole, the most visible American Middle East scholar, summarized it in a particularly vivid comment: "the US misadventure in Iraq is responsible [in a little over three years] for setting off the killing of twice as many civilians as Saddam managed to polish off in 25 years."
The results are nevertheless staggering for those of us who read the American press: for the deaths that the victims families knew for sure who the perpetrator was, U.S. forces (or their "Coalition of the Willing" allies) were responsible for 56%. That is, we can be very confident that the Coalition had killed at least 180,000 Iraqis by the middle of 2006. Moreover, we have every reason to believe that the U.S. is responsible for its pro rata share (or more) of the unattributed deaths. That means that the U.S. and its allies may well have killed upwards of 330,000 Iraqis by the middle of 2006.
So in this war a good summation by an Iraqi bloggr,when a US soldier dies his name is written and his land grieves.
When an Iraqis dies by US hands,he is an insurgent or collateral damage,nameless,fatherless,moherless and alone.
So when you point your finger at otehr you got 3 fingers pointd back at you,, -
In the known history of major mainstream civilization that has left some impact on mankind - there is no such person as your ''alhamdulilah youa'' ?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Salaam,
Reply to atobe..
]The facts of history is that the Americas, Africa and Australia were wide expanse of land, and the tides of history has it that the more powerful has always subjugated the weak, and so the human evolution continued through history - passing through several cycles of civilisations.
Would you have history being repeated in this 21st Century - where the more powerful subjugate the weak ?
If History is to be followed in which the strong subjugate the weak for land that is not used - do you think the Muslim Migrants have any chance of accomplishing the same in the present Western Country ?
It was stupidity for Osama bin Laden to unleash a war on the World Community by targetting the World Trade Center - killing Muslims and Non-Muslims who were working and visiting the icon of New York City.
A majority cannot be a minority - and vice-versa. Your statement begin from a false premise and cannot be realised. It is plain nonsense.
If you have no understanding of what Life in this 21st Century is all about, can I blame you for your preferred manner of limiting your own choices and exposure ?----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First off,alhamdulilah youa ccepted that this is a fact of hisotry,that as a minority grows to majority there will be clashes in the land.
What authority does he bear in any social or political philosophy ?
You have conveniently float from one century into anyother.
And the size of the land does not matter,what mattr is population of a town or city.
And in the 21 cntury it is happening all around where the powerful subjugat the weak.
Read the news of police brutality in the US,or the random acts of racism in after math of Katrina.
It is also happening in the UK,Russin even in SG.
When you say that if a strong force is avaibale to subjugte the weak then then the minority will not be able to stand up.
History has already shown us that the minority will win out.
An eg,,,US African American,a minority,slavery and so on,,they tood up and when their number grew too great,instead of civil war,the US WHIte power capitulate FOR IT HAS necome an accapeted fact that black or white are but human.
When the Americas, Australia and South Africa were colonised, and the natives were subjugated it was in the 19th Century - if you know your history.
The violence used against the natives of these countries were subsequently revealed, and even from within their present day societies, there are social amendments made and sincere efforts are pushed to help the natives of these countries.
You have purposefully twisted events from two centuries ago to justify the terrorist actions of the Muslim Communities to push for a larger space for themselves in foreign countries that they have migrated into.
USA is a melting pot of different races or ethnicities - from the different countries in UK, Europe, Asia, Africa, Russia, South America.
Every nationality began as a minority, and soon their numbers grew.
No single ethnic group from these diverse group of people - in the US melting pot - has ever demanded that their ethnic group should be given the right to enforce their own religious laws to their own community, which shall be supreme over the US Constitution.
It is sheer absurdity for the Muslim community to demand such political space in every country that they have migrated to.
If the Muslim community desire to be governed by the Islamic Shariah Laws on their lives, why do the Muslim community even bother to migrate into UK, USA, Europe, and all other more progressive countries that have no Muslim Communities before ?
We are now in the 21st Century, a Century for Human Rights, Equality for Man and Woman, non-segregation, non-discrimination, Equal Opportunity to every Sex, and Freedom from Autocracy.
If you think that you have been able to find me contradicting myself - have a good laugh, otherwise your attempt at LOL is no more then attempting to cover your own weak position by simply making a hollow statement without even daring to show how the contradiction has appeared.
So in time in every land the minority if their birth rate increases and their culture remian,then it is ineveitable.
It is funny that you accept historical fact but yet deny what you wrote..LOL
Are you now advocating that we return to the 19th Century practices of violent subjugation now that your Muslim numbers have grown - even when such past mistakes are no longer condoned ?
Are you justifying the present day Jihadist Terrorist actions to push for more political space simply due to your numbers reaching a critical mass ?
Should we not be surprised that we are seeing the younger Muslims from UK being linked to terrorists activities ?
Those Chinese and Indians who have migrated into the four corners of the World, have quietly assimilated into their respective host countries, and practise their own religions in quiet contemplation and modest behaviors.
Even the Communist Chinese Government Leadership has made public announcements for Overseas Chinese to respect the laws of the host countries, and be examplary in their conduct that do not tarnish the reputation of their Ethnicity.
Why should any host country treat Islam and Muslim in more special ways than it would to other ethnic groups coming from every countries in the World ?
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The reason for you not hearing any ethnic group in Malaysia desiring to sing the Malaysian National Anthem in their own ethnic language is simply due to the fact that they are acceptable to the idea of assimilating into a plural society - and that they ''will not want to rock the boat'' - unlike the Muslim Communities demanding that they should be governed by their own Shariah Laws when they are the migrants to other host countries.
Osama,started the World war.. a laughable notion..LOL..
An accusation is but an accusation if there is no proof then there is no Justice.
If we were to go strongly by US intelligence then assuredly Iraq will have WMD,but as we now know and have always know,the US does what it does for its own reason,,neihter honourable nor right. [/quote]
Only the blind will not be able to see anything.
Can we tell the blind how an elephant will look like ? Can the blind even know where to begin to appreciate the beauty of something that he has no clue ?
Talk to Osama if you think that he has no intention to start WW3.Would you have the Malaysian Malays allow their Chinese or Indian or Eurasian Citizens sing ''Negara Ku'' in their respective mother tongue ? And likewise, the various Singaporean ethnic communities sing ''Majullah Singapura'' in the various languages and dialects ?
It is another one of those zeonphobic reasons that a minority will attempt to impose on the larger community.
It is another sheer nonsense that you will wish to project that in Islamic countries there are many races but only one faith.
Are you disputing the fact that in Islamic countries there are restrictions imposed on the development on other religions, when Islam is given unrestricted space and freedom to develop in other Countries that has its own Religion - which is characteristics to its own nationals ?
In any case, this thread is not for you to justify the future dominance of Islam - the ugly side has been falsely promoted by the hoodlums supported by Osama bin Laden and his narrow minded followers.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have never heard of any ethnic in malaysia desiring to sing their national anthem in their own language.
Or in SG,i heard that the the GOV did ask but people of all races said the Malay language is Singapore.
In any case, Malaysia is claimed as 'Malay Land' not Singapore.
You must be dreaming if you believe that the Singapore Government has ever consulted Singaporeans about the ''Malay language is Singapore''.
The Malay language is only ONE of the FOUR Official Language, with ENGLISH as the Administrative Language.
Then again, the Malay language and identity has been pushed to the forefront simply for political convenience - that Singapore despite being 70% Chinese majority has a ''Malay identity''.
If you believe that ''Malay is Singapore'' - it shows that the ''con job'' was so perfect that the Minority Group has felt comfortable enough being given the political space and not feeling threatened by the other ethnic groups.
This policy of accomodation, patience, and tolerance towards the minority are characteristics of every civilized nation, and it is disappointing that Muslims have become more strident to even demand that their archaic religious laws based on medievial values should replace 21st Century Laws.
[quote]
Also,for Malaysia,the number of Chinse is in descent,just like in SG,the Chinese Singaporean birth rate as the goverment said is "unreplenishable".
So again the Chinese is in decline. So where do you intend to lead with this line of argument ?
Read carefully what I have posted previously, and do not miss the essence of my previous reply which you have failed to address in full.
Your statement smack of religious and cultural chauvinism.
And what is nonsense that in islam we have many racs but of one faith.
take for expale Singapore,malay are muslim,so are chinese and so are indian so are caucasion.
It is the same thruout the world,differnt races/nationality smae religon..
Are you forgetting that Budhism has also many followers from different races, and so has Christianity and Hinduism.
What rubbish are you regurgitating that throughout the world there are different races/nationality - same religion ?
Are there no other religions except Islam ?
You are testing my hospitable sense to some extreme.
Either you are being purposefully provocative or you are being mischevious in some dangerous way.
And as far as i know only Saudi Arabia restrict the propagation of of other reliogn.But that reason is simple,Makkah is the Holiest site in Islam and there are no non muslim there,so would it be justified to have buiding of other faith when there are no adherents?
Also Sauid Arabia do hire lots of non muslim but they are not forced to convert but are allowed to pray in their own but they are not allowed to preach.
Hope you cna provide more coutnries if you are able..
can you provide more and the link thanks.
And this thread is not to promote the future dominanc of Islam,alhamdulilah you agree) but raher to show why the radical do as they do.
And the funny part is that i i do not use the word Osama,or in support but you continuously do...and your assertion that other do too..LOL
Have you not educated yourself that the Malaysia Government and its Relgious Council is one of the biggest religious biggot that anyone can witness, or have you conveniently been hit with some amnesia ?
Even when your Prophet has taught and written in the Koran that Muslims who decide to change their faith should be allowed to leave Islam's embrace, the Malaysian Muslim zealots have made life tough for those who no longer believe in Islam. To make matters worst, while the Malaysian Constitution guarantee Religious Freedom to ALL Malaysians, the same FREEDOM is not given to Malaysian MALAYS.
Look at the map of Africa and the Middle-east, and you ask yourself - then name to us which Islamic Countries will allow some generosity for other religions to spread their alien religions in any of the Islamic countries on that map ?
Why the hypocrisy of demanding political space from foreign host countries, but not reciprocating with the same generous treatment in the Islamic World to the Religions from other foreign countries ? -
What nonsense are you spouting now ?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Salaam,
Your claim that Muslims are not represented in Government is false due to your limited knowledge of the existing events beyond your local religious knowledge.
The fact that Muslims are not as well represented in Western Government is largely due to the poor 'Religious Leadership' in the Islamic Community that looked to Islam for guidance.
With the Islamic Religious Leaders being trained by rote learning and in a value system that is ''out-of-sync'' in a ''Plural Society'' of a Host Country in which everyone is seen as ''non-believers'' and not to be communicated with - can you expect the Host Country to accept anyone from the 'MINORITY' Muslim Community to be represented in any Western Government ?
This issue is being addressed by the Dutch in which Dutch Imams attending to Dutch Muslims are proposed to be trained in Holland, so as update these Imams with 21st Century knowledge, and not based on the ancient values and teachings of narrow interpretation of the Religion.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just wish to point out that you did conradict yourself in the first 2 paragraphs...
On one hand you say that they are represented then you say they are not.
Did you not refer to your earlier post that Muslims are not represented in Government ?
My post responded that your belief that Muslims are not represented is FALSE remains correct - as there are Muslim MPs in the UK Parliament, as well as there are Muslim representatives even in the respective legislature and Civil Service of the different European States.
The number of MPs may not be to the size that you desire, and it is entirely due to the fault of the Muslim Community for being dependent on the Leadership from the Mosques.
Such leadership are from Imams, who have now been found NOT to be locally born or bred, but are ''imported'' and ''trained in the madrasahs located in the mountains and squalid cities of the Middle-east, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Morocco, Libya, Algiers, Iran and other Third World Countries''.
These Imams were found to be trained on a curriculum that is based on rote learning of Koranic teachings that date back to the Medievial Values and Social Standards.
Worst still, these Imams can only speak in the native tongues of their own country of origin - and despite being engaged by mosques in the various European countries to provide religious leadership to a new generation born and grown up in Europe, they could not communicate with a new generation unable to speak their own mother tongue, and influenced by modern technologies and value systems that are totally alien to the Imam.
You are in no position to tell anyone that Islam is LIFE, when you have no values as to what Life is all about, not when you advocate for a minority migrant race to assert itself with violence when it has reached a critical mass in numbers in a host country.
In actual fact,Islam is life,it also covers the Politics,the Prophet Muhamamd saw was not only a Messenger of Allah but also the Head of State.
If Islam is LIFE, you should be the first to denounce the use of terrorism and violence to achieve any political or religious objectives.
For your information, ISLAM is NOT the only religion that advocate its Religion is LIFE - so does Judaism, Christianity, Budhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Taoism, Shintoism, and all other mystique religions.
What is the worth of any Religion if it does not associate itself with LIFE ?
Before you continue with your arrogance in boasting with your Islamic propaganda, you ought to be more grateful that the World Community has been generous in accomodating Islam, Islamic Views, and its Muslim followers.
It is only now that Muslim population have grown to a large extent and seen the action of the Americna and Europen brethren ,do they now take an interest in Politics for the good of the muslim Ummah.
I hope you do know that there is now ONE muslim senator?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Ellison_(politician)
And i hope you do know that Imam from arab coutnry who fly around are limited in number and those who are actually in the coutnry make their own imams.
Can we expect the same reciprocating respect and equal treatment from EACH and EVERY MUSLIM countries to other religions in this World - according to the teaching of your Prophet ?
Try starting with Malaysia and Saudi Arabia, and then down the line to Iran, Syria and every radical Islamic Country.
If you are a true believer in Islam, you should be more honest.
I just hope you dont think that the entire arab world actually goes around the world to be Imam in foreign places ignoring their own house.
Which country that is secular and has open its door to Muslim refugees - economic or political - have not seen any Muslims community being instigated by their Imams to clamour stridently for more political space for Islam, with the ultimate goal of implementing Shariah Law that stand equal to or supercede the local laws of the Host Country ?
This statement surely confirm your jingoistic Islamic views that are no different from the fascist and communist methods of surreptiously planting themselves in alien territories, multiply themselves like rabbits, then slowly forcing their presence on a sleeping host country with slow and insipid demands.
And the Dutch are doing is also a sign of the power of the Musim majority,they see the need for an in bred Duth Imam, who speak dutch,but he will aslo need to learn arabic.
For no person can be an imam if he does not know how to read the Quran in Arabic,translation are not accpetable.
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If as a Muslim, you insist on being governed by Shariah Laws, can you be seen to integrate into a host country ? As a Muslim accepting the law of the land of the HOST Country, will you subsequently demand for Shariah Law to govern your Muslim Community ?
Assimilation is not merely gastronomic as I have already said.
Assimilation into another community is the 'acceptance' and willingness to 'submit oneself' to the laws of an adopted host country. [/color]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitting oneself to the law of the land is differnt from being integrated.
Your line of thought is so poor that it is reflected in the multiple errors with your spelling of the words that end up with your thought process becoming gibberish.
Muslim can go to an land and submit themselves to the law of the land for they dont contradict Islam.
cna you give me an explae of a coutnry that explicitly forces men and women to fornicate daily with strangers and to make "friends" with gays and lesbian?
Can you give me antoher coutnry that say,its people must dring alchohol daily?
Or to eat pork daily?
Such laws would b contrary to Islamic teaching,as it TO ALL THE WORLDS NATIONS.
If you believe your words cannot be proven, why do you not talk to ex-PM Mahathir - he is a Muslim, and an expert in forcing his accusation on to Anwar making ''friends'' with gays and lesbians ?
While you are still in Malaysia, use the Singapore Straits Times 8 July 2007 edition as a guide - to locate the Indian woman, who wished to renounce Islam and be a Hindu, but was confined by the Malaysian Relgious Council and she claimed to have been tortured by being force fed with beef.
Such is the barbarity of the Malaysian Malays in enforcing and misinterpreting the teachings of the Prophet.
And you are willing to make useless defense of a religion that is bankrupt of any modern theological thinking ?
As if being a religious chauvinist is not enough, you will venture into being a gastronomic one too ?
So language and food are best sign of integration.
No one does the best rojak like the Indian and such we go to the Indian.
no one does the best Nasi lemaks as the malays so we go to the Malays
No one does the best Tofu like the chinese so we go to the chinese.
Either you are bankrupt in your values, or you are more politically shrewd then you have shown yourself to be; or I have over estimated your ability.
Then again, Osama bin Laden also took a low profile and went about his insiduous ways only to unleash his horror onto the World Community in the most unexpected form taken.
All that you have described in the various posts, point to this purposeful trend of Islamic migration, high pro-creativity, critical mass in numbers, insipid demands, and more purposeful insiduous push, with a final rush to seize open opportunities at the right moment.
Are you for real ? -
How did you answer my question, when I had asked it after your last posting ?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Salaam,
Are you being confused in understanding what has been posted ?
If you do not expect any migrant to conform to their host country then why should your be a migrant ?
I will welcome you into my house, and share the food with you, but I will expect you to respect my house rules, as much as I will respect your customs. However, DO NOT expect me or my family to accept your rules and customs being imposed on me.
If you cannot assimilate into my environment, please return to where you come from.
If I am a Hindu, or a Budhist, or a Chrisian - and as a migrant to your Islamic Country, can I demand that I will not conform to your social, cultural, religious, economic and political practices of your Islamic society ? Can I demand that Hindu Law, Christian Law or Budhist Law be specially applied to myself and my community that is living in your Islamic Country ?
Can the Syriah Law - based on values from a Medievial Period of the History of Manking - be compatible with the Laws of any country in this 21st Century ?----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think i already answered you,do the Chinese in every wesrn antion abandon thir reliogn and accept the host country faith?
Is there no Chinatown in every City?LOL
Even now, you have not even addressed the questions raised.
The ''Chinese and all the other races'' that have migrated into new and foreign countries have never demanded for their own Laws to be applied for their own Community - as the Muslims have demanded for Shariah Laws to govern Muslim Communities in host countries.
Dream on if you believe that Singapura is a Malay land, or even if Malaysia is a Malay country too.
Also when you say that people who cant integrate into their soviety,they should then leave..Well my IC say i am a Malay and so is not Singapura a Malay land?
Are you a Maly and have you integraed into Malays custom and rituals?
If you have not read Dr Mahathir's book about the 'Malay Dilemma' - in it he had researched and found that the Malays were originally from Yunan, China; and the True Bumiputras are the Orang Asli of Malaya, the Sakais of Sarawak, the Kadazans of Sabah.
The Malays are no better of as the Chinese in Malaya and Singapore, and are actually cousins from China.
Singapure a Malay country ? Are you having a ''High on a Cloud SEVEN'' ?
It was sold by the Sultan of Johor to the East India Company for a few thousand pounds, precious stones, cloth, and incense.
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Surely you are not that dumb to have read my lines wrongly ?
It is like saying that Australian adn Americna should return to the UK for they never conformed to the natives of that land.LOL
guess we should expect mass immigration soon.. LOL
Why would the Australian or the Americans return to UK - when the natives have been subjugated to their superior values and culture ?
I will repeat my analogy again and update my lines to address your reply:-
If I have taken over a house from someone else - either through purchase or from bank seizure - and if I should welcome you into my house: do you expect me to accept your views that I must allow your religious customs and laws to exist alongside my house rules ?
I can accomodate your curry, blachan and sambal that stain my table-wares, but should I tolerate your insistence that I do not eat pork or mutton, stop burning my incense and my incantation ?
If I allow my children to listen to your Islamic teachings, will you allow your children to listen to the teachings of Christianity, Hinduism, Budhism, Taoism - all from the different tenants staying with me ?
Should I pack up and leave my house, or kick you out before you stab me when I am asleep ?
You should take a lesson in propaganda from the Information Minister who served the EX-ecuted Iraqi President Sadam Hussein.
And under Islam,we do not force conversion,and the laws of your reliogn is binding to you,we do not enforce it.
But if you are a foreigner in a muslim land,then by your own ideas,they should "submit" to the will of the lands,is that not right?
the Shariah laws are compatible wiht the 21 century,i would be more than happy to answer your doubts,but cna you make a new thread for that...shukran..
At least he did a more convincing job at self-denial of the reality of events during the ''Operation Iraqi Freedom'' than your useless line of claiming ''Islam do not force conversion, and the laws of your religion is binding to you, we do not enforce it''.
If Islam do not force conversion, why force someone who intend to leave Islam ? Why force a non-believer to accept Islam when there is a marriage to a Muslim partner ?
Why would you want to have me to expect you to enforce my Religious Laws onto myself ? In anycase, no other Religions will have ''A Law'' similar to the Shariah Laws that dictate medievial values onto 21st Century humans.
With you being a Muslim, why should I believe that you can be so generous as to enforce my own Laws onto myself ?
Records have shown that every Muslim countries - (and non-Muslim Countries too) have never allowed alien laws to take precedence over National Laws.
If this is not pure idiocy to think that your insidious line can slip pass the radar ?
Shariah Laws compatible with 21st Century Laws ?
Judging from the abuse of the beautiful women in the Islamic Community, and with the menfolk getting away from crimes of abuse due to the unbalance nature of the Shariah Law that disadvantage Muslim Women - can the Shariah Law come close to even be compared with 21st Century Law
I leave it to you to convince anyone who is interested in your jingoistic knowledge of Islam. -
Seriously, do you know enough to mix different issues into one over glorified statement about birth control policies with personal material values ?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Salaam,
What was your point in emphasing on the productive performance of Muslims compared to other races - especially your emphasis towards Israel ?
Is there any point in chosen jingoistic line of debate ?
Has the brilliant performance of the Malay birthrates in Singapore - compared with the other races - proved anything except to burden those Malays in the lower income group with more mouths to feed, marital breakdowns, divorces, broken homes, delinquent kids, drug abuses and all kinds of social problems given the size of their population when compared to the other ethnic groups ?
This remain the same for the other Islamic countries with uncontrolled birthrates that remained in the Third World despite their wealth in natural resources and human population size.
You maybe living in the 21 Century, but unfortunately are you part of it ?----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
umm iso are you able to privde data on your asertion of prodcutive performance of Muslim.
I have no idea of the avialability of the statistic,so pls fill in my ignorance and provide the data..thanks..
And this debate is about filling both of with each othr point of view,what is the point of saying a statement wihout facts?
And just to point out a fct,can you tell me of 2 families one with one child and the other with 5 children,,who would be more affluent?
Who will live the lifestyle they choose.
The western world and Sg have done much to curb the lack of birth rate but in all their effort they do not check the fundamental problem that is selfsihness.
We all desire to live the life we want,in happiness and confort,but will children give us these material comforts?
NO,,and that is what happening thruout the entire first world,material comfort before families.
Hope you cna provide me wiht the data thanks..
Have you outsmarted yourself this time ?Originally posted by Zulkiflim: Saturday 7 July 2007 05.19 A.M.
I believe that in the future more and more countries will have no choice but to cater to and support Islmaic views,as population makes a poltitician.
Inshallah,you can check for the birth rate of muslim in western coutnries as compared to their counterparts.
A good comparision would be Palestine and Isrealis
Palestinian birth rate is 3~4X while the Isrealis are stagnant..
Did I make the arrogant claim that Muslims are the most fertile baby producers in the world - OR were you the guilty party ?
Did you not challenge me to check the birth reate of muslim in western countries, and with a good comparison would be Palestine and Isrealis... Palestinian birth rate is 3~4X while the Isrealis are stagnant.. ????
How quickly and conveniently you switch side to claim that I made an '' assertion of prodcutive performance of Muslim.'' ?
Despite your attempt to be intelligent by asking silly questions - the fact remains that the Singapore Malays has the highest rate of failed marriages as a percentage from their Community, and despite the low income levels in most Malay households, the fertility rate amongst the Malays are higher than the Chinese, Indians or the Eurasians - which is the cause for the problems of the Malay Community having the lowest numbers with high education.
Do you still believe in the superiority of a higher birth rate compared to other ethnic groups ? Is there anything to be proud of when high insensible productivity in birthrates result in economic hardship, and degradation of living standards ? Where is the sense in your line of argument ? -
As one small sample of what makes me different from your preferred backward values : at least, I can safely admit that I prefer my women not to wear scarfs that hide their beautiful hair; as hair alone will not arouse my sexual desires, in the same manner that it will somehow arouse others who insist on having their women's hair covered but never shaved.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Salaam,
Why do you need me to prove your point, when you are already a capable advocate to using violence as a premedidated tool to enforce your own rights - which is probably part of your trained thought process in interpreting the archaic Syriah Laws based on medievial value system ?
The indiscriminate mass murder and collateral damage without recourse have been more purposefully practised by the Islamic Jihadists - even towards their own Muslim brethens.
Do you think the truck bombs and suicide bombings are conducted by US and Coalition Military, or the New Iraqi Military towards local Iraqi citizens ?
If not for the US and coalition armies, Sadam Hussein, his murderous sons, and his cronies will continue to rape and plunder Iraqi men, women and children without help from George Bush.
Whole Kurdish villages were wiped out by Chemical Ali, and Millions of Iranians were killed in the 7-Year war between Iraq and Iran - ALL were MUSLIMS.
Iraqi Muslim Sunnis and Iraqi Muslim Shiites are killing each other - in a struggle for political supremacy, with the Iraqi Shiites being grandly supported in their effort by Islamic Iran - who are majority from the Shiite sect of Islam.
The American and their Coalition Partners are sacrificing their young men and women to bring some normalcy back to Iraq, and if Iraqis have Muslim brothers like you, why should they need any enemies ?---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
May i ask,if you say that i am backward but may i ask where you come from?
Read my post again, and do some justice to your reputation of some professionalism in twisting statements made by others to suit your own ends.
Did you not just advocate murder on a mass scale to kill the "crazy monkeys"
No, I am simply following your backward religious teachings - which approves 'an eye for an eye'; except that I bring it further by 'Fighting Fire with Fire'.
And you did prove my point that you share the reasoning as hose you calim are backward
No, it is you who support violence to achieve your ends of fighting for more political space when your ''minority group'' have reached a critical mass that gives you some semblance of being 'a majority'.
you support violence as the means to an ends.
While I have merely advocate that violence should be used on those who prefer violence, and using violence to stop violence - as in buring tracts of land to get rid of the fuel that will otherwise encourage a raging forest fire to continue unabated - (by controlled burning the land before the forest fire arrive, one will starve the raging fire from further timber).
If you prefer to skew your reading of my analogy, it is not a wonder why you prefer everything to be backward.
Lack of Law - whose Law?
While i say that becasue of the lack of law,the violence erupts.
Osama bin Laden had the Shariah Law governing his behaviour, while the London bombers were supposed to be subjected to the Laws of the Land - (UK Laws) - yet violence erupted.
Your thought process is becoming suspiciously desparate.
The danger with little knowledge from littel people is that they have a tendency to look at specific events with little peep holes that skew the vision and screw the mind.
Also Saddm was in power due to the US support.not lack of it.
the US gave saddam WMD and knew he was killing his own people and iranians but kept silent.
All that is open proof from the world media..but which not a single US goverment is in court for.
Since when did the USA deliver any WMD to Saddam Hussein ?
Where did you get your facts from ?
This is another typical hare-brain zeonphobic jingoism of a Muslim against US aggressors.
Click on the reference piece marked in blue and try to digest the info.
continue below -
continuation
How do you identify the body parts of an Iraqi killed by another Muslim who decide to indiscriminately set off a bomb in a public place filled with hundreds of innocent Iraqi Muslims going about their daily affair ?
You say that the American are sending their people for the good of Iraq,but why dont we just Iraqis.
the last polls say they view the US presence as the cause of the strife.
But do the iraqis views matter to you? [/quote]
If I do not respond in the correct manner as you expected, it is due to your poor attempt at writing sensible English instead of writing Iraqi malay.
When Saddam Hussein went into hiding with his murderous sons and cronies, every TV stations had shown vivid scenes of jubilant celebrations and defacing of Saddam Husseins statues and pictures, and raiding of his palaces.
Are you denying this event ?
The problem that the Iraqis are facing today, is due to their inability to reconcile power sharing between the Sunnis and the Shiites, while the Kurd are satisfied that they have a homeland.
The murderous bombings are not the work of the US military nor the New Iraqi Army - but the work of the murderous Iraqi Muslims, who will not think twice to kill another Muslim from a different sect or tribe.
If you must blame the Americans, you could at least be more accurate and professional in your assessment and your views.
Stop looking at the US behind your green colored lens.
Utter rubbish as already shown in the referenced article that I gave in my post above
As for Saddam behaviour,you condemn it as do all Muslim but do you condemn those who aided saddamw ith WMD and kept silent while Saddam killed iranian and Kurds?
Did you kow that the US gave WMD to Saddam and kpt silent while he murdered Iranian and Iraqis?
Or will you not accpt the fact?
[quote]
Something to read....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is the United States Killing 10,000 Iraqis Every Month? Or Is It More?
A state-of-the-art research study published in October 12, 2006 issue of The Lancet (the most prestigious British medical journal) concluded that -- as of a year ago -- 600,000 Iraqis had died violently due to the war in Iraq. That is, the Iraqi death rate for the first 39 months of the war was just about 15,000 per month.
Reputable researchers have accepted the Lancet study's results as valid with virtually no dissent. Juan Cole, the most visible American Middle East scholar, summarized it in a particularly vivid comment: "the US misadventure in Iraq is responsible [in a little over three years] for setting off the killing of twice as many civilians as Saddam managed to polish off in 25 years."
The results are nevertheless staggering for those of us who read the American press: for the deaths that the victims families knew for sure who the perpetrator was, U.S. forces (or their "Coalition of the Willing" allies) were responsible for 56%. That is, we can be very confident that the Coalition had killed at least 180,000 Iraqis by the middle of 2006. Moreover, we have every reason to believe that the U.S. is responsible for its pro rata share (or more) of the unattributed deaths. That means that the U.S. and its allies may well have killed upwards of 330,000 Iraqis by the middle of 2006.
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/56124/----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So in this war a good summation by an Iraqi bloggr,when a US soldier dies his name is written and his land grieves.
When an Iraqis dies by US hands,he is an insurgent or collateral damage,nameless,fatherless,moherless and alone.
So when you point your finger at otehr you got 3 fingers pointd back at you,,
Are the Americans to be blamed ?
When the Iraqi or foreign Arab insurgents decide to unscrupulously use Iraqi civilians as human shield to attack the US Military, what would you do to defend yourself if you are in uniform ?
The referenced piece - 'The Lancet' maybe right or it maybe wrong - but is it objective in its intention ?
It reported that 600,000 Iraqis died in the three years since Operation Iraqi Freedom toppled Saddam Hussein.
Did the Report mentioned that during ''Saddam Hussein's 35 year criminal rule, he had led Iraq into four foreign wars, two civil wars, and countless smaller conflicts in which some 1.5 million people died - including Iranians and Kuwaitis. The UN has discovered some 300,000 corpses in mass graves throughout Iraq, and many more corpses are still missing, including victims of chemical weapons. He is responsible for driving some 4.5 million Iraqis - almost a fifth of the nation's population - out of their homes. In the Kurdish area alone, he presided over the destruction of over 400 villages in 1980s.''
Are the Americans the cause of the present Iraqi problems ?
Or were the Muslim Jihadist entering Iraq to have a battle against the US Military just when Saddam Hussein has been toppled, and normalcy was about to be made real ? -
Salaam,
Reply to Atobe.
If you read the words i said,the placing of alhamdulilah does not refer to a prson.
In the known history of major mainstream civilization that has left some impact on mankind - there is no such person as your ''alhamdulilah youa'' ?
What authority does he bear in any social or political philosophy ?
Alhamdullilah mean All praise is due to Allâh
So if you put the word translated into englist it would read...
First off,Thanks to Allah you have ccepted that this is a fact of hisotry,that as a minority grows to majority there will be clashes in the land.
There you have leanerd a new thing,alhamdulilah.
Again,you agree wiht my point that the natives of the US,Australia and South Africa were oppresed and subjugates as the invaders become more and more.
You have conveniently float from one century into anyother.
When the Americas, Australia and South Africa were colonised, and the natives were subjugated it was in the 19th Century - if you know your history.
The violence used against the natives of these countries were subsequently revealed, and even from within their present day societies, there are social amendments made and sincere efforts are pushed to help the natives of these countries.
You have purposefully twisted events from two centuries ago to justify the terrorist actions of the Muslim Communities to push for a larger space for themselves in foreign countries that they have migrated into.
USA is a melting pot of different races or ethnicities - from the different countries in UK, Europe, Asia, Africa, Russia, South America.
Every nationality began as a minority, and soon their numbers grew.
No single ethnic group from these diverse group of people - in the US melting pot - has ever demanded that their ethnic group should be given the right to enforce their own religious laws to their own community, which shall be supreme over the US Constitution.
It is sheer absurdity for the Muslim community to demand such political space in every country that they have migrated to.
If the Muslim community desire to be governed by the Islamic Shariah Laws on their lives, why do the Muslim community even bother to migrate into UK, USA, Europe, and all other more progressive countries that have no Muslim Communities before ?
We are now in the 21st Century, a Century for Human Rights, Equality for Man and Woman, non-segregation, non-discrimination, Equal Opportunity to every Sex, and Freedom from Autocracy.
Also,i did not twist hisotry for my word were,THUOUT history..so it applies thru out all of man recorded history.I said those 3 coutnries as an example.
Also the coutries are making restitution but again it does not disprove the facts that the natives were oppreses in their own land.
And since we have already aggred that THRUOUT history when ever a race becomes MORE they will seek their onw way.
Thus i find that your argument NOT to expect the Muslim to NOT want their own religon and culture is a double standard.
Migration happen all over the world and it can aslo be asked why to many non muslim moveto Dubai or the UAE,Or Saudi Arabia?
The reasoning is simple,to seek a better life aint it.
Also we can see the trend is also changing in the Arab states as more and more foreigner come into their land to live there.
So if we were to go by your argument,these non muslim should not expect anythng but follow Islamic laws....is that right?If you think that you have been able to find me contradicting myself - have a good laugh, otherwise your attempt at LOL is no more then attempting to cover your own weak position by simply making a hollow statement without even daring to show how the contradiction has appeared.
Again,mm i can see what your have posted but do you even read what you have written?
Are you now advocating that we return to the 19th Century practices of violent subjugation now that your Muslim numbers have grown - even when such past mistakes are no longer condoned ?
Are you justifying the present day Jihadist Terrorist actions to push for more political space simply due to your numbers reaching a critical mass ?
Should we not be surprised that we are seeing the younger Muslims from UK being linked to terrorists activities ?
Those Chinese and Indians who have migrated into the four corners of the World, have quietly assimilated into their respective host countries, and practise their own religions in quiet contemplation and modest behaviors.
Even the Communist Chinese Government Leadership has made public announcements for Overseas Chinese to respect the laws of the host countries, and be examplary in their conduct that do not tarnish the reputation of their Ethnicity.
Why should any host country treat Islam and Muslim in more special ways than it would to other ethnic groups coming from every countries in the World ?
First off,you have already accepted that THRUOUT hisotry as a minority become a majority they will seek RIGHTS.
As you yourself have said that the Chinese and Indian have gone thru out the 4 corners of the world ,but they do not change who they are.
They still follow their own reliogna nd even create entire communities where they are a majority.
Eg Chinatown..
So i am sorry if my LOL offended you,but it was just too funny..
And did i justify the action of the radicals? If so can you prove it?
thanks.. -
Salaam,
Reply to Atobe..Only the blind will not be able to see anything.
Yes only the blind wont see anything cause they are BLIND.
Can we tell the blind how an elephant will look like ? Can the blind even know where to begin to appreciate the beauty of something that he has no clue ?
Talk to Osama if you think that he has no intention to start WW3.
But they can read and write and learn and have their onw minds.
And the blind cannot se but they still have 4 other sensors.
Do you know that even a healthy person ,in a dar rom will able to discern an object if they know the shape.
So the blind can be taught to discern shape,even complex arhitecture.
And i think that Osama cant be reached ven by the CIA.so it is a bit difficult to talk to him..The reason for you not hearing any ethnic group in Malaysia desiring to sing the Malaysian National Anthem in their own ethnic language is simply due to the fact that they are acceptable to the idea of assimilating into a plural society - and that they ''will not want to rock the boat'' - unlike the Muslim Communities demanding that they should be governed by their own Shariah Laws when they are the migrants to other host countries.
Hmm,if that is argument then perhaps all ethnics should speak only Malay and abandon their culure and religion?
In any case, Malaysia is claimed as 'Malay Land' not Singapore.
You must be dreaming if you believe that the Singapore Government has ever consulted Singaporeans about the ''Malay language is Singapore''.
The Malay language is only ONE of the FOUR Official Language, with ENGLISH as the Administrative Language.
Then again, the Malay language and identity has been pushed to the forefront simply for political convenience - that Singapore despite being 70% Chinese majority has a ''Malay identity''.
If you believe that ''Malay is Singapore'' - it shows that the ''con job'' was so perfect that the Minority Group has felt comfortable enough being given the political space and not feeling threatened by the other ethnic groups.
This policy of accomodation, patience, and tolerance towards the minority are characteristics of every civilized nation, and it is disappointing that Muslims have become more strident to even demand that their archaic religious laws based on medievial values should replace 21st Century Laws.
And an you tell me of any muslim communities that demand that non muslim follow Shariah,you yourself have noted that even the Chinese and Indian who "do not rock the boat" do not follow Shariah.
So in your mind,should the other ethnics in Malaysia follow Shariah?
Casue that is your argument...
Also Singapore is histocrically a Malay land,and by your last argument to ask me to return to my land of origin,well i am already here,,,would you do as what you speak and leave singapore then?
LOL..
Shariah laws ar applicable as it is in the apst tot eh present,i did ask you make a new thred and show which laws you consider archaic?
Thanks..
Something for you to read..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_Singaporean
The government has strongly discouraged the publication of the Christian bible in Malay, and strongly discourages missionaries to attempt to convert the local Malay populace. Such missionaries are especially concentrated on more unorthodox Protestant sects, notably Charismatic and Baptist, who are noted for their zealous attempts to convert non-Christians. So far the Christians missionaries have not made a significant dent in a strong Muslim society.
And as you have agreed,that minority in whatever civilization are always treated far lesser than the minorities.
LOLSo where do you intend to lead with this line of argument ?
It is in line with History thruout the world,shoulld the CHinese population increased then they would of course ask for tehir right.
Read carefully what I have posted previously, and do not miss the essence of my previous reply which you have failed to address in full.
As of now,the Malaysian Chinese have the right for their own reliogn,their own dialect and their own communities.
Also i have already answered you,but in most cases you agree but deny the facts.
i have no idea why..Your statement smack of religious and cultural chauvinism.
Umm you did ask about Islam not other faith,
Are you forgetting that Budhism has also many followers from different races, and so has Christianity and Hinduism.
What rubbish are you regurgitating that throughout the world there are different races/nationality - same religion ?
Are there no other religions except Islam ?
You are testing my hospitable sense to some extreme.
And did you not just asnwered yourself that in Buddhism,Christianity and Hindusim ther are many races practising the same faith?
So are you asking a "rubbish" question?
provocative,can you tell which part makes you angry?
Either you are being purposefully provocative or you are being mischevious in some dangerous way.
Have you not educated yourself that the Malaysia Government and its Relgious Council is one of the biggest religious biggot that anyone can witness, or have you conveniently been hit with some amnesia ?
Even when your Prophet has taught and written in the Koran that Muslims who decide to change their faith should be allowed to leave Islam's embrace, the Malaysian Muslim zealots have made life tough for those who no longer believe in Islam. To make matters worst, while the Malaysian Constitution guarantee Religious Freedom to ALL Malaysians, the same FREEDOM is not given to Malaysian MALAYS.
Look at the map of Africa and the Middle-east, and you ask yourself - then name to us which Islamic Countries will allow some generosity for other religions to spread their alien religions in any of the Islamic countries on that map ?
Why the hypocrisy of demanding political space from foreign host countries, but not reciprocating with the same generous treatment in the Islamic World to the Religions from other foreign countries ?
It is the simple truth..is it not?
As for the law of Apostasy,the same rulling applies to all of the Abrhamic faith tho it is not followed.
Also would you consider that the SG gov is also a religous Bigot for not allow a Malay Bible to published or allowing people to convert muslim?
And i think that that most muslim majority coutnries and muslim governed would not allow such proseltying.
But then again,muslim from these coutnries do not preach to get converts too.
But ocnverts come either will we or nil we,Alhadmulilah.
But i expect tha in time as the number of minority non muslim increase,if they do increase,then t will change,if not muslim coutnries will remain..muslim.
Also,the "hyprocrisy" exist thru mankind history,it is inevitable . -
Easy to become a Malay, says MB
Kota Kinabalu: Malacca Chief Minister Datuk Seri Haji Mohd Ali Rustam said a person who is a Muslim, converses in Malay and follows the Malay traditions is considered a Malay.
“It is easy to become a Malay, ” he told a Press conference after Sabah Chief Minister Datuk Seri Musa Aman opened the Dunia Muslim Dunia Islam (DMDI) seminar, here, Saturday.
Elaborating on why Musa had said that more than 50 per cent of the StateÂ’s nearly three million population are Malays, Mohd Ali, who is also DMDI president, said:
“Even if that person is Chinese or Indian or KadazanÉif they are Muslim or have converted, converse in Malay and follow the Malay tradition, then they are Malays.”
“The Kadazans if they are a Muslim, we considered them as Malays, and if they have not embraced Islam, they are Bumiputeras. It is easy to become a Malay.”
Its easy to be Malay.
I plan to become one. With all the bumiputera benefits while sidestepping all the red-tapes againts non-bumi's.
he he..
-
suddenly from NHS/UK, the debating has been shifted to be talking about religions and races
-
Salaam,
Well here is your contradiction..
What nonsense are you spouting now ?
Did you not refer to your earlier post that Muslims are not represented in Government ?
My post responded that your belief that Muslims are not represented is FALSE remains correct - as there are Muslim MPs in the UK Parliament, as well as there are Muslim representatives even in the respective legislature and Civil Service of the different European States.
The number of MPs may not be to the size that you desire, and it is entirely due to the fault of the Muslim Community for being dependent on the Leadership from the Mosques.
Such leadership are from Imams, who have now been found NOT to be locally born or bred, but are ''imported'' and ''trained in the madrasahs located in the mountains and squalid cities of the Middle-east, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Morocco, Libya, Algiers, Iran and other Third World Countries''.
These Imams were found to be trained on a curriculum that is based on rote learning of Koranic teachings that date back to the Medievial Values and Social Standards.
Worst still, these Imams can only speak in the native tongues of their own country of origin - and despite being engaged by mosques in the various European countries to provide religious leadership to a new generation born and grown up in Europe, they could not communicate with a new generation unable to speak their own mother tongue, and influenced by modern technologies and value systems that are totally alien to the Imam.
A
So here you say,Muslim are represented..
Atobe wrote
Your claim that Muslims are not represented in Government is false due to your limited knowledge of the existing events beyond your local religious knowledge.
But below you wrote..
So isnt it a contradiction?
Atobe wrote
The fact that Muslims are not as well represented in Western Government is largely due to the poor 'Religious Leadership' in the Islamic Community that looked to Islam for guidance.
My stance was that Muslim are not reprsented,you disagreed than agreed wiht my views,,hmm..
Also,then you say they are represnted bt then say "not be to the size that you desire"...so in you mind is it represented or not? I am confused now..LOL
Anyway,then you say it is the fault of the Muslim for following the Third World Coutnry Imams,,is that right.
Then you say that theya re taught to follow mideval teaching and rote learning.
Well most countries in the world are third wolrd,but does that inhibit learning?
Also since the "third world" imam are from Arabia and thus they speak far more and have greater knowledge of Islamic teachings,you blame the adherent of the religion to follow the source?
May i ask,do you blame Buddhist when they ask for a religious man who dont even share the smae language wiht them?
you have been round Singapore and i am sure you have heard of the mantras,,do you understand them?
o in your view,it is plain wrong to ask a foreigner to teach about reliogn despite the fct that it started from their land? and thier language?
How about Bahia faith? do you also condemn that language?
Or the LAtin Mass,do you understand Latin?
Also,when you say that Islam Imam are of midevail times,,can you tell me dont every other reliogn?
When you went to school did you learn of Buddha of Midevail times,,or Siddharta?
When you are taught of Prophet Jesus as were you taught of Propeht Jesus as in midevail times or now?
It is surprising snce most holy book are still in the olden language but you condmen Islamic Imam? LOL
Also Most muslim world wide agree that Imam must be able to be reach the community and Inshallah every wesern antion shall have a Intitution to train Imam,but they will still learn of Midevail times..LOLYou are in no position to tell anyone that Islam is LIFE, when you have no values as to what Life is all about, not when you advocate for a minority migrant race to assert itself with violence when it has reached a critical mass in numbers in a host country.
Actually i cna tell you as Ilsma is life for i am an adherent to the Islmaic faith.
If Islam is LIFE, you should be the first to denounce the use of terrorism and violence to achieve any political or religious objectives.
For your information, ISLAM is NOT the only religion that advocate its Religion is LIFE - so does Judaism, Christianity, Budhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Taoism, Shintoism, and all other mystique religions.
What is the worth of any Religion if it does not associate itself with LIFE ?
Unless you are saying you know more than a muslim..LOL
And you also advocated the violence when a minority become a majority,you even made reason for why it is justified for the US and Australin to oppreses the natives..
Islam is life mean we have rules for all thng,even when you cut your fingernail,it is in the ahdith.
LOL.
As for terrorism and violence Islam have laws for it too,but we have already covered this and you were not happy wiht the answer.
islam command you to fight when you are attacked.
To be the defender not the aggresor.
So the reliogn have laws as indepth as Islam,but i cant take your world for it lah casue i do not know what your reliogn is..
Again you are in error,we do not seek to convrt anyone in foreing coutnries but converts come.
Before you continue with your arrogance in boasting with your Islamic propaganda, you ought to be more grateful that the World Community has been generous in accomodating Islam, Islamic Views, and its Muslim followers.
Can we expect the same reciprocating respect and equal treatment from EACH and EVERY MUSLIM countries to other religions in this World - according to the teaching of your Prophet ?
Try starting with Malaysia and Saudi Arabia, and then down the line to Iran, Syria and every radical Islamic Country.
I guess that desperation of the edia protryaing Islma the fastest growing religion has casued thir furor..LOL
I beleive that if more and more non muslim reside in Mslim coutnries the law will change for Islam allow people to worship their own faith.
Again the Historical fact of minority becoming majority.
But i do not forsee this happening as the western world population is declining and need additional manpower from other coutnries to sustain their growth.If you are a true believer in Islam, you should be more honest.
I am a muslim and from your world for me to be "more honest",,does that mean that i am already honest and you wnat me to be more honest?LOL
Which country that is secular and has open its door to Muslim refugees - economic or political - have not seen any Muslims community being instigated by their Imams to clamour stridently for more political space for Islam, with the ultimate goal of implementing Shariah Law that stand equal to or supercede the local laws of the Host Country ?
can you tell me in what way you wishfor me to be more honest?LOL
Agaain it is the same point i have made and which you agree,,minority become majority,,simple inst it.This statement surely confirm your jingoistic Islamic views that are no different from the fascist and communist methods of surreptiously planting themselves in alien territories, multiply themselves like rabbits, then slowly forcing their presence on a sleeping host country with slow and insipid demands.
In what way was my stetement wrong?
you your self (i beleive ) endorse that most non muslim nation have a school to train imam in their language.
I just merely pointed out that the Holy Qurna is in Arabic...and thus they will need to learn Arabic.
The Quran translation into other languages are Ok but they are lacking in depth.
I hope you are not against people learning more than one languages? LOL -
Salaam
Atobe wrote..If as a Muslim, you insist on being governed by Shariah Laws, can you be seen to integrate into a host country ? As a Muslim accepting the law of the land of the HOST Country, will you subsequently demand for Shariah Law to govern your Muslim Community ?
I thought we have covered this,it is hisotrical fact that as minority become majority they will make demand for their ..
Do you accept that fact?Your line of thought is so poor that it is reflected in the multiple errors with your spelling of the words that end up with your thought process becoming gibberish.
Sorry if my spleeing upset ou,but from yourreply i can see that you understood my reply..Alhamdulilah.
If you believe your words cannot be proven, why do you not talk to ex-PM Mahathir - he is a Muslim, and an expert in forcing his accusation on to Anwar making ''friends'' with gays and lesbians ?
While you are still in Malaysia, use the Singapore Straits Times 8 July 2007 edition as a guide - to locate the Indian woman, who wished to renounce Islam and be a Hindu, but was confined by the Malaysian Relgious Council and she claimed to have been tortured by being force fed with beef.
Such is the barbarity of the Malaysian Malays in enforcing and misinterpreting the teachings of the Prophet.
And you are willing to make useless defense of a religion that is bankrupt of any modern theological thinking ?
But you did not asnwer my post,can you provide me with one law in a foreign land that contradicts Islam.
thanks,will be waiting for it.
Inshallah.
And as for Mathir assertion that Anwar is gay,well i dont know,it is between them and what Mahathir knows right..
Force feeding is not allowed in Islam,nor is torture.
As i have said before,in Islam we have accoutnability,if a person sin,in knowledge his sin is greater.
Inshallah,the truth shall come to light.
And may the woman choose wisely,an interesting case...
As is the case of a Chinese man of wrong parent..
Again,can you tell me in what way is Islam bacnkrupt in any theological thinking?
thanks..As if being a religious chauvinist is not enough, you will venture into being a gastronomic one too ?
I really have no idea to respond to this,just statement.
Either you are bankrupt in your values, or you are more politically shrewd then you have shown yourself to be; or I have over estimated your ability.
Then again, Osama bin Laden also took a low profile and went about his insiduous ways only to unleash his horror onto the World Community in the most unexpected form taken.
All that you have described in the various posts, point to this purposeful trend of Islamic migration, high pro-creativity, critical mass in numbers, insipid demands, and more purposeful insiduous push, with a final rush to seize open opportunities at the right moment.
Are you for real ?
Well i do love to eat..but do you go and eat prata from non indian when the indian make the best prata?
And wow,you make Osama into such a brainiac.. -
Salaam,
How did you answer my question, when I had asked it after your last posting ?
Can you tell me where the demand are for Sharia in foreing coutnries thanks..
Even now, you have not even addressed the questions raised.
The ''Chinese and all the other races'' that have migrated into new and foreign countries have never demanded for their own Laws to be applied for their own Community - as the Muslims have demanded for Shariah Laws to govern Muslim Communities in host countries.
If the demand is growing then Inshallah in time if the birth rate reamn it will happen.
Actually,may i ask,do the Chinese have a set of religous laws?
I mean like Taosim?
Or Buddhism?
can you provide an exaple of any similiarity between sharia and other faith thanks..
Just hope you will go this link and read about this..
In it it show of how the muslim in the Uk and the Jews are demanding for additional power to their court.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6190080.stm
"Orthodox Jews go to the Beth Din to settle their disputes," says Jonathan Greenwood, a solicitor who represents many Jewish businessmen at the court.
Orthodox Jews go to the Beth Din to settle their disputes - they believe it is a religious obligation to go there
In an ICM survey of 500 British Muslims carried out in February 2006, 40% of respondents said they would support the introduction of Sharia in predominantly Muslim areas of Britain.
The UK's most prominent Muslim organisation, the Muslim Council of Britain, opposes the idea, saying it will not support a dual legal system.
But some of Britain's Islamic scholars have called for a different approach - Sharia legal code in areas such as family and inheritance, applied through the secular courts.
Also an artilce of a Bahai faith..
http://www.pluralism.org/resources/tradition/essays/sikh7.php
http://www.pluralism.org/news/intl/index.php?xref=Kirpan+Discrimination+Cases&sort=desc
All these are sign of a minority growing into a majority minority and asserting their right.
Umm arent you contradicting yourself again?
Dream on if you believe that Singapura is a Malay land, or even if Malaysia is a Malay country too.
If you have not read Dr Mahathir's book about the 'Malay Dilemma' - in it he had researched and found that the Malays were originally from Yunan, China; and the True Bumiputras are the Orang Asli of Malaya, the Sakais of Sarawak, the Kadazans of Sabah.
The Malays are no better of as the Chinese in Malaya and Singapore, and are actually cousins from China.
Singapure a Malay country ? Are you having a ''High on a Cloud SEVEN'' ?
It was sold by the Sultan of Johor to the East India Company for a few thousand pounds, precious stones, cloth, and incense.
You know that it was sold to the east India Company? by the Sultan of Johor,so the previous owner is the Sultan of Johor.
So that mena the land is Malay,right..LOL
Again using your anolgy,it applies to all races who were minority then become a majority.
Surely you are not that dumb to have read my lines wrongly ?
Why would the Australian or the Americans return to UK - when the natives have been subjugated to their superior values and culture ?
I will repeat my analogy again and update my lines to address your reply:-
If I have taken over a house from someone else - either through purchase or from bank seizure - and if I should welcome you into my house: do you expect me to accept your views that I must allow your religious customs and laws to exist alongside my house rules ?
I can accomodate your curry, blachan and sambal that stain my table-wares, but should I tolerate your insistence that I do not eat pork or mutton, stop burning my incense and my incantation ?
If I allow my children to listen to your Islamic teachings, will you allow your children to listen to the teachings of Christianity, Hinduism, Budhism, Taoism - all from the different tenants staying with me ?
Should I pack up and leave my house, or kick you out before you stab me when I am asleep ?
you yourself have said that the US and Australian have sudjugated the natives.
If according to you analogy,the US and Australian should have have been killed even bfore they become a majority.
i know you already accepted the fact of the HISTORICAL facts of minority becoming majority syndrome,but seem to cant accept that Muslim birth rate is far higher than their western coutnerpart.
So again,i have already answered your question as simple as possible.
Actually when i say Islam does not force you to convert into Islam,but we do have laws for apostates as do all the Abrahamic faith.
You should take a lesson in propaganda from the Information Minister who served the EX-ecuted Iraqi President Sadam Hussein.
At least he did a more convincing job at self-denial of the reality of events during the ''Operation Iraqi Freedom'' than your useless line of claiming ''Islam do not force conversion, and the laws of your religion is binding to you, we do not enforce it''.
If Islam do not force conversion, why force someone who intend to leave Islam ? Why force a non-believer to accept Islam when there is a marriage to a Muslim partner ?
Why would you want to have me to expect you to enforce my Religious Laws onto myself ? In anycase, no other Religions will have ''A Law'' similar to the Shariah Laws that dictate medievial values onto 21st Century humans.
With you being a Muslim, why should I believe that you can be so generous as to enforce my own Laws onto myself ?
Records have shown that every Muslim countries - (and non-Muslim Countries too) have never allowed alien laws to take precedence over National Laws.
If this is not pure idiocy to think that your insidious line can slip pass the radar ?
Shariah Laws compatible with 21st Century Laws ?
Judging from the abuse of the beautiful women in the Islamic Community, and with the menfolk getting away from crimes of abuse due to the unbalance nature of the Shariah Law that disadvantage Muslim Women - can the Shariah Law come close to even be compared with 21st Century Law
I leave it to you to convince anyone who is interested in your jingoistic knowledge of Islam.
And why a non believer to convert is simple,should not the loving couple also meet in Jannah?
Also poltically it is a means to propogate Islam.
It is the same for Judaism,also an Abrahamic faith.
Also,all the Abrahmic faith have laws similiar to Sharia,that includes Judaism and Chritianity.
And we muslim cannot for a non muslim if they do not want to follow your own laws,that is between you and and god religion.
If you profess to be a so and so,but do not follow your own laws,we do not stop you..
Actually,recods show that in the time of Prophet and after chrisitan and Jews follow their own laws.
A point to note,search for teh golden age of the Jews,you will see it is under Islamic rule.
Can you define your accusation of wihin the Islmic community and the coutnries thanks.
Also,just a point in the US every 2 min a woman is raped..
So rape occur in all nations irregardless of religon and nationality.
http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm -
Salaam,
Seriously, do you know enough to mix different issues into one over glorified statement about birth control policies with personal material values ?
I suppose you cant show me then,well Inshallah i shall search and earn,if i find it would you too like to learn?
Have you outsmarted yourself this time ?
Can you tell me how i ahve outsmarted myself?
I did say ht Muslim birth rate is higher as comared to western world.
Did I make the arrogant claim that Muslims are the most fertile baby producers in the world - OR were you the guilty party ?
Did you not challenge me to check the birth reate of muslim in western countries, and with a good comparison would be Palestine and Isrealis... Palestinian birth rate is 3~4X while the Isrealis are stagnant.. ????
How quickly and conveniently you switch side to claim that I made an '' assertion of prodcutive performance of Muslim.'' ?
Despite your attempt to be intelligent by asking silly questions - the fact remains that the Singapore Malays has the highest rate of failed marriages as a percentage from their Community, and despite the low income levels in most Malay households, the fertility rate amongst the Malays are higher than the Chinese, Indians or the Eurasians - which is the cause for the problems of the Malay Community having the lowest numbers with high education.
Do you still believe in the superiority of a higher birth rate compared to other ethnic groups ? Is there anything to be proud of when high insensible productivity in birthrates result in economic hardship, and degradation of living standards ? Where is the sense in your line of argument ?
So did you check on the data?
If so can you show me what you have gleaned thanks..
And just to refresh your memory,,his is what you wrote about muslim malayNo need to go that far, Singapore alone has shown our Muslim brethens to out-perform the other ethnic communities, despite being in the group being in need of most economical and social help.
But dont worry if you dont have the data i will just assume it is but a statement.
What was your point in emphasing on the productive performance of Muslims compared to other races - especially your emphasis towards Israel ?
Can you povide data for Muslim having the "highest rate of failed marriages and Malay Community having the lowest numbers with high education. "
Hope you cna back this up with data,would love to read it Inshallah.
And again higherfertility means that that race will intime be the majority in all aspect. -
salaam,
As one small sample of what makes me different from your preferred backward values : at least, I can safely admit that I prefer my women not to wear scarfs that hide their beautiful hair; as hair alone will not arouse my sexual desires, in the same manner that it will somehow arouse others who insist on having their women's hair covered but never shaved.
I see then the woman is for your pleasure to look at?
And your arousal is clearly more important that her modesty.
The Hijab is for Modesty.
And you claim tha your thinking is FORWARD,trully i would say it is barbaric.
Also Hijab is alos worn by other reliogn other than Islam,Nun too,do you find them backward too?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeitWr1OzCc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZVYJNvauwo&NR=1
in Islam both men and women wear the Hijab.
Women are to cover their hair ,the face is subjective.
For men they cannot bare their shoulder and must cover till the knees
In Islam he body of the man and woman is for just themselves not for others.
If this is your 21 century then is it any wonder why more and more women are converting to Islam and wearing the Hijab?
Astarfillah,such ill thought,you demean women thouroughly.
I did and it sound as violent as it was the first time i read it.
Read my post again, and do some justice to your reputation of some professionalism in twisting statements made by others to suit your own ends.
And also lawless.
your own words..When monkeys go amok to terrorise a Community, and will not be pacified with bananas or peanuts - the next best thing to do to remove the nuisance is to shoot those ''crazy monkeys''.
We should be grateful that 'George Bush is the Biggest Terrorist around' - to terrorise those ''Crazy Monkeys'' with his - ''You can run, but you cannot hide'' approach.No, I am simply following your backward religious teachings - which approves 'an eye for an eye'; except that I bring it further by 'Fighting Fire with Fire'.
Patato Potato
2 sides of the same coin.
So in effect you calim to Islmaic teaching,but i assure you it is your own teaching not Islam.No, it is you who support violence to achieve your ends of fighting for more political space when your ''minority group'' have reached a critical mass that gives you some semblance of being 'a majority'.
Using violence to stop violence,,so are you any differnt from those you claim as radical?or monkeys?
While I have merely advocate that violence should be used on those who prefer violence, and using violence to stop violence - as in buring tracts of land to get rid of the fuel that will otherwise encourage a raging forest fire to continue unabated - (by controlled burning the land before the forest fire arrive, one will starve the raging fire from further timber).
If you prefer to skew your reading of my analogy, it is not a wonder why you prefer everything to be backward.
What makes your life worth more than theirs?
thus this will always continue and in the end,population will win out.Lack of Law - whose Law?
So thank again for provng my point,you apply the law for Osama and the bomber but not for other ..
Osama bin Laden had the Shariah Law governing his behaviour, while the London bombers were supposed to be subjected to the Laws of the Land - (UK Laws) - yet violence erupted.
Your thought process is becoming suspiciously desparate.
As i siad,lack of law..simple..
Also me desperate,can you be more clear? Thanks..The danger with little knowledge from littel people is that they have a tendency to look at specific events with little peep holes that skew the vision and screw the mind.
thanks for the link..
Since when did the USA deliver any WMD to Saddam Hussein ?
Where did you get your facts from ?
This is another typical hare-brain zeonphobic jingoism of a Muslim against US aggressors.
Click on the reference piece marked in blue and try to digest the info.
Some excepts from there..The U.S., having decided that an Iranian victory would not serve its interests, began supporting Iraq: measures already underway to upgrade U.S.-Iraq relations were accelerated, high-level officials exchanged visits, and in February 1982 the State Department removed Iraq from its list of states supporting international terrorism. (It had been included several years earlier because of ties with several Palestinian nationalist groups, not Islamicists sharing the worldview of al-Qaeda. Activism by Iraq's main Shiite Islamicist opposition group, al-Dawa, was a major factor precipitating the war -- stirred by Iran's Islamic revolution, its endeavors included the attempted assassination of Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz.)
All the above are from your link and i sincerely hope you did read it..
Iraq received massive external financial support from the Gulf states, and assistance through loan programs from the U.S. The White House and State Department pressured the Export-Import Bank to provide Iraq with financing, to enhance its credit standing and enable it to obtain loans from other international financial institutions.
The U.S. restored formal relations with Iraq in November 1984, but the U.S. had begun, several years earlier, to provide it with intelligence and military support (in secret and contrary to this country's official neutrality) in accordance with policy directives from President Ronald Reagan. These were prepared pursuant to his March 1982 National Security Study Memorandum (NSSM 4-82) asking for a review of U.S. policy toward the Middle East.
The U.S., which followed developments in the Iran-Iraq war with extraordinary intensity, had intelligence confirming Iran's accusations, and describing Iraq's "almost daily" use of chemical weapons, concurrent with its policy review and decision to support Iraq in the war [Document 24]. The intelligence indicated that Iraq used chemical weapons against Iranian forces, and, according to a November 1983 memo, against "Kurdish insurgents" as well [Document 25].
Will you accept your own link or will you ignore it? -
Salaam,
If I do not respond in the correct manner as you expected, it is due to your poor attempt at writing sensible English instead of writing Iraqi malay.
It seems you do accept what the Iraqs say but would rahter support the US irregardless of the victims.
When Saddam Hussein went into hiding with his murderous sons and cronies, every TV stations had shown vivid scenes of jubilant celebrations and defacing of Saddam Husseins statues and pictures, and raiding of his palaces.
Are you denying this event ?
The problem that the Iraqis are facing today, is due to their inability to reconcile power sharing between the Sunnis and the Shiites, while the Kurd are satisfied that they have a homeland.
The murderous bombings are not the work of the US military nor the New Iraqi Army - but the work of the murderous Iraqi Muslims, who will not think twice to kill another Muslim from a different sect or tribe.
If you must blame the Americans, you could at least be more accurate and professional in your assessment and your views.
Stop looking at the US behind your green colored lens.
And if you did not understadn my "english" you woulld not respond by changing the topic would you..
obviously you understood but would rahter play on the Saddam card.
So the irqis rejocing one time shown on the emdia sums it up?How many more times have the iraqis reacted angrily towards their state now?
Will you ignore that?
And the article i posted before sum it up very nicely,about the propaganda that Iraqi are the casue of the instability.
It all due to US invasion and bad planning.
Consider hat after the first gulf war,Iraqis were able to rbuild their coutnry even tho under sanction and a weakened Saddam was still in power.the Iraqis had electricity for 24 hours but now under the administration they have barely half a day..
Like i said before,the US violence and lack of law casued the insurgency ..Utter rubbish as already shown in the referenced article that I gave in my post above
your article show lcearly that the US supported Saddam with WMD,so i shall wait for your reply,Inshallah.How do you identify the body parts of an Iraqi killed by another Muslim who decide to indiscriminately set off a bomb in a public place filled with hundreds of innocent Iraqi Muslims going about their daily affair ?
Obvioulsy you did not read the article..
Are the Americans to be blamed ?
When the Iraqi or foreign Arab insurgents decide to unscrupulously use Iraqi civilians as human shield to attack the US Military, what would you do to defend yourself if you are in uniform ?
The referenced piece - 'The Lancet' maybe right or it maybe wrong - but is it objective in its intention ?
It reported that 600,000 Iraqis died in the three years since Operation Iraqi Freedom toppled Saddam Hussein.
Did the Report mentioned that during ''Saddam Hussein's 35 year criminal rule, he had led Iraq into four foreign wars, two civil wars, and countless smaller conflicts in which some 1.5 million people died - including Iranians and Kuwaitis. The UN has discovered some 300,000 corpses in mass graves throughout Iraq, and many more corpses are still missing, including victims of chemical weapons. He is responsible for driving some 4.5 million Iraqis - almost a fifth of the nation's population - out of their homes. In the Kurdish area alone, he presided over the destruction of over 400 villages in 1980s.''
Are the Americans the cause of the present Iraqi problems ?
Or were the Muslim Jihadist entering Iraq to have a battle against the US Military just when Saddam Hussein has been toppled, and normalcy was about to be made real ?
As the article show the survivors are able to tell who caued them harm,either bomb ,rocket fire,us soldiers or US war planes,,unless you are saying Iraqis insurgent have warplanes..LOL
And your comparison of 600 000 thousand iraqis dead by US soldeirs as compared to Saddam 1.5 million....may i ask,are you comparing?
Or is 1.5 million a goal?
thus your reason for comparison is as long as the US kills 1.49 million Irqis theya re NOT WRONG?
Hyprocrisy,and thus is the occupation any beter than Saddam,
Saddam has gotten his punishment,will the US and Colaition?
Also can you provide me wiht the link for the allegation that saddam murdered 1.5 million....which by all account according to link is with US aid.
LOL,first off the US adminstration say it is insurgency,then foreign fighter then Iran..
All of this is to cover up their own mistakes.
under Saddam,Iraq has no link to Al Qaeda,wiht the US Al Qaeda now is in Iraq.
For SEP 11,the US ttacked 2 countries out of revenge and feeling insecurity.
they killed 600 000 thousand, for an attack on their land.
Bt now you condemn those who fight for their own land..
All this would have stoped if the US did not stop calling Iraqis as COLLATERAL DAMAGE. -
[color=darkred]Thanks to what that you have assumed that I have accepted ? Are you not being dishonest and presumptious ?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Salaam,
Reply to Atobe.
In the known history of major mainstream civilization that has left some impact on mankind - there is no such person as your ''alhamdulilah youa'' ?
What authority does he bear in any social or political philosophy ?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you read the words i said,the placing of alhamdulilah does not refer to a prson.
Alhamdullilah mean All praise is due to Allâh
So if you put the word translated into englist it would read...
First off,Thanks to Allah you have ccepted that this is a fact of hisotry,that as a minority grows to majority there will be clashes in the land.
There you have leanerd a new thing,alhamdulilah.
Is there any purpose of introducing 'Arabic terms' in your opinions pieces that you have so far posted ?
Your persistence in using an Arabic greeting in each post do not impress anyone of you being 'relgious nor Islamic, nor even both combined', why do you even spend useless lines with such salutations in every post, as if we are meeting for the first time ?
The exchange of letters with Middle-eastern customers in business writings or even in conversation carry no such salutations, and it simply show you to be a fraud.
Such salutations of 'Salaam' will normally be used when conversing with one's own, and seldom with others in alien land, or outside of one's proximity in personal relationships or bonds.
Your persistence with 'Salaam' surely is a superfluous attempt at being obnoxious as is your purposeful push with your skewed views of the Islamic values - which itself is already out-of-sync in the 21st Century.
Did I agree with you on any points, when the events are facts of history that were not in dispute except for your twisting of these facts to suit your skewed use of such facts.
You have conveniently float from one century into anyother.
When the Americas, Australia and South Africa were colonised, and the natives were subjugated it was in the 19th Century - if you know your history.
The violence used against the natives of these countries were subsequently revealed, and even from within their present day societies, there are social amendments made and sincere efforts are pushed to help the natives of these countries.
You have purposefully twisted events from two centuries ago to justify the terrorist actions of the Muslim Communities to push for a larger space for themselves in foreign countries that they have migrated into.
USA is a melting pot of different races or ethnicities - from the different countries in UK, Europe, Asia, Africa, Russia, South America.
Every nationality began as a minority, and soon their numbers grew.
No single ethnic group from these diverse group of people - in the US melting pot - has ever demanded that their ethnic group should be given the right to enforce their own religious laws to their own community, which shall be supreme over the US Constitution.
It is sheer absurdity for the Muslim community to demand such political space in every country that they have migrated to.
If the Muslim community desire to be governed by the Islamic Shariah Laws on their lives, why do the Muslim community even bother to migrate into UK, USA, Europe, and all other more progressive countries that have no Muslim Communities before ?
We are now in the 21st Century, a Century for Human Rights, Equality for Man and Woman, non-segregation, non-discrimination, Equal Opportunity to every Sex, and Freedom from Autocracy.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again,you agree wiht my point that the natives of the US,Australia and South Africa were oppresed and subjugates as the invaders become more and more.
Also,i did not twist hisotry for my word were,THUOUT history..so it applies thru out all of man recorded history.I said those 3 coutnries as an example.
Also the coutries are making restitution but again it does not disprove the facts that the natives were oppreses in their own land.
And since we have already aggred that THRUOUT history when ever a race becomes MORE they will seek their onw way.
Thus i find that your argument NOT to expect the Muslim to NOT want their own religon and culture is a double standard.
Are you so desparate to find common ground that we are standing on ?
Did I not ask you if you are expecting ''such history to be repeated - in which the strong will subjugate the weak - in this 21st Century'' ?
Do you think that I am stupid not to realise your effort in advocating Muslim Dominance of the World in this 21st Century - on the simple fact that Muslims have attained the biggest numbers in head counts in the World ?
Is it ''Doube Standard'' that I have used when I questioned you and said that you have twisted history to suit your line of thinking ?
Or are my words more a dire warning to the dangerous line of thoughts that you are following in advocating the Right of Muslims in a SINGLE MINDED ISLAMIC PURSUIT at ISLAMISING the World ?
As I have said in my previous posts - you have twisted events in the 18th Century human colonisation of weaker humans to suit your imagined 21st Century Islamic Power, and hence - the Right to Dominate and Islamise the World.
There is nothing to prevent you from your line of thoughts - except the Might of every Humans preferring to LIVE IN FREE SOCIETIES and will never allow ourselves to be subjected to any self-proclaimed Religious Leaders' whimsical interpretation of archaic RELIGIOUS LAWS.
Most Religious Societies - including Christianity, Budhism, Hinduism, Judaism and others - have evolved and blossomed in new Scientific knowledge and industry, and over the last three centuries all humans in 21st Century societies have abandoned colonisation of others.
Why are you still advocating 18th Century values of the strong subjugating the weak, and justifying Islam's Right to struggle for its own place in every World communities that have accomodated its existence and will even want to dominate it ?
I had asked you another question in my last post - do you think that Islam can succeed in this radical effort that only you and your radical cousins intend for Islam ?
continue below -
continuation
Yes, the cheap labor from Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Africans - whom Islam can buy their religious conversion with the Arabic wealth.
Migration happen all over the world and it can aslo be asked why to many non muslim moveto Dubai or the UAE,Or Saudi Arabia?
The reasoning is simple,to seek a better life aint it.
Why will the Caucasian oil specialists - employed by the Arab Sheiks that own the oil fields - remained untouched by Islam, and will continue with their alcohol drinking and women chasing ways in the oasis of some liberal Arabic cities ?
If the Arabs were poor, do you think that Islam will gain any converts to the demanding Relgious Rules of Shariah that is based on Medievial Values in a period of Human History which all other human societies have moved away from ?
Also we can see the trend is also changing in the Arab states as more and more foreigner come into their land to live there.
So if we were to go by your argument,these non muslim should not expect anythng but follow Islamic laws....is that right?What is the basis of your assumption ? Another hollow speculative re-interpretation of the facts ?
How did you perceived that your LOL has offended me, when all I had mentioned is that you were covering your error with an weak attempt at LOL ?
Modern property developments in the UAE is about the only place that any wealthy foreigners will consider to have a vacation home in a place with perpetual summer. Even then, those who can afford to buy such expensive properties - built on human made land reclaimed from the sea at such high costs - will do so for the property and the climate, and not to migrate from their religion or their economic environment.
Will it surprise you that Islamic Laws are not applicable in this special development zones that will have cinemas, nightclubs, spas, casinos and all the trappings of a 21st Century Civilisation next to Saudi Arabia ?
Those Europeans who move into other exotic places that have Islamic Governments - such as Algiers, Libya, Nigeria - are mainly colonialist attempting to relive their colonial glory, and the Algerian Government welcome the personal retirement wealth that they bring in.
What rational people - except from the economically less developed countries - will want to migrate to the Middle-east, which restrict Individual Freedom with conservative Religious Rules ? [/color]
[quote]If you think that you have been able to find me contradicting myself - have a good laugh, otherwise your attempt at LOL is no more then attempting to cover your own weak position by simply making a hollow statement without even daring to show how the contradiction has appeared.
Are you now advocating that we return to the 19th Century practices of violent subjugation now that your Muslim numbers have grown - even when such past mistakes are no longer condoned ?
Are you justifying the present day Jihadist Terrorist actions to push for more political space simply due to your numbers reaching a critical mass ?
Should we not be surprised that we are seeing the younger Muslims from UK being linked to terrorists activities ?
Those Chinese and Indians who have migrated into the four corners of the World, have quietly assimilated into their respective host countries, and practise their own religions in quiet contemplation and modest behaviors.
Even the Communist Chinese Government Leadership has made public announcements for Overseas Chinese to respect the laws of the host countries, and be examplary in their conduct that do not tarnish the reputation of their Ethnicity.
Why should any host country treat Islam and Muslim in more special ways than it would to other ethnic groups coming from every countries in the World ?
[b]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again,mm i can see what your have posted but do you even read what you have written?
First off,you have already accepted that THRUOUT hisotry as a minority become a majority they will seek RIGHTS.
As you yourself have said that the Chinese and Indian have gone thru out the 4 corners of the world ,but they do not change who they are.
They still follow their own reliogna nd even create entire communities where they are a majority.
Eg Chinatown..
So i am sorry if my LOL offended you,but it was just too funny..
And did i justify the action of the radicals? If so can you prove it?
thanks..
Again another useless attempt at recovering from an exposed hollow stunt ?
''Pick-and-choose'' and ''selectively twist'' words to suit your personal position in arguments, but it will not hide your shameless attempt at advocating ''Islamic Dominance'' of the Free World.
All your cunning duplicity cannot hide the facts in your preferred lines that are so obvious, and you will still ask for proof that you are justifying the actions of the Islamic radicals ?
Where do you intend to go with this line of thinking - a question that was asked but which you have dubiously avoided giving any direct clarification ?
And since we have already aggred that THRUOUT history when ever a race becomes MORE they will seek their onw way.
Thus i find that your argument NOT to expect the Muslim to NOT want their own religon and culture is a double standard.
If you will want to be reminded - the population of China and India combined will outnumber all the Muslim numbers in this World, and we have not counted the Caucasians from Europe, Nordic Countries, Russian Caucas, Russia, the Latinos, non-Muslim Asia, Africa and Australia.
In this 21st Century, why are you and your radical types insist on using 18th Century strategies of procreation to dominate the societies that Muslims live in, so as to spread your religion, and then subjugating the societies with your Shariah Law ?
Your radical views have exposed an agenda to dominate the Free World by purposeful migration, insipid expansion through unregulated birth, insidious calls to accomodate your demand for more political rights from your adopted countries, and subsequent strident calls to change the laws of the host countries to accomodate your archaic Religious Laws, and more challenging demands that will have you colonising the Host Countries with your surreptious political agenda that see no limit in time for its successful outcome.
Is it any wonder that you and your radical types give Islam a bad image, and the reasons by all rational Freedom Loving Societies to reject your lot ? -
How does the blind learn to read and write and learn, and have their own minds when they have to DEPEND on SOMEONE ELSE'S SIGHT, and INTERPRETATION of the FACTS, someone's VALUE SYSTEM ?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Salaam,
Reply to Atobe..
Only the blind will not be able to see anything.
Can we tell the blind how an elephant will look like ? Can the blind even know where to begin to appreciate the beauty of something that he has no clue ?
Talk to Osama if you think that he has no intention to start WW3.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes only the blind wont see anything cause they are BLIND.
But they can read and write and learn and have their onw minds.
And the blind cannot se but they still have 4 other sensors.
Do you know that even a healthy person ,in a dar rom will able to discern an object if they know the shape.
So the blind can be taught to discern shape,even complex arhitecture.
And i think that Osama cant be reached ven by the CIA.so it is a bit difficult to talk to him..
Yes, the Blind cannot see but how do they know what to associate ith their four other senses ?
Will the Blind not depend on SOMEONE ELSE's interpretation of what their sense have highlighted to them ?
Is it not obvious that in a dark room, a healthy person can surely discern an object if they know the shape - simply due to the fact that he is already familiar with such shapes and objects given his PERSONAL familiarity and knowledge through observation and touch to such items in daylight ?
A sighted person can exercise his own INDEPENDENT JUDGEMENT by using his senses INDEPENDENTLY.
The BLIND will be DEPENDENT and EXPOSED to the EXPLOITATION of more CUNNING persons capitalising on the backwardness of The BLIND, and with the clever use of DUPLICITY, the BLIND can alway be led to believe the TRUTH in the manner of the interpretation of the more CUNNING.
Are you so SIMPLE in your thinking despite your display of cunning duplicity ?
You certainly can qualify to be a dumb opportunist.The reason for you not hearing any ethnic group in Malaysia desiring to sing the Malaysian National Anthem in their own ethnic language is simply due to the fact that they are acceptable to the idea of assimilating into a plural society - and that they ''will not want to rock the boat'' - unlike the Muslim Communities demanding that they should be governed by their own Shariah Laws when they are the migrants to other host countries.
In any case, Malaysia is claimed as 'Malay Land' not Singapore.
You must be dreaming if you believe that the Singapore Government has ever consulted Singaporeans about the ''Malay language is Singapore''.
The Malay language is only ONE of the FOUR Official Language, with ENGLISH as the Administrative Language.
Then again, the Malay language and identity has been pushed to the forefront simply for political convenience - that Singapore despite being 70% Chinese majority has a ''Malay identity''.
If you believe that ''Malay is Singapore'' - it shows that the ''con job'' was so perfect that the Minority Group has felt comfortable enough being given the political space and not feeling threatened by the other ethnic groups.
This policy of accomodation, patience, and tolerance towards the minority are characteristics of every civilized nation, and it is disappointing that Muslims have become more strident to even demand that their archaic religious laws based on medievial values should replace 21st Century Laws.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm,if that is argument then perhaps all ethnics should speak only Malay and abandon their culure and religion?
Do you think LKY will accept your views ?
Only in Malaysia with strident Malay politicians armed with their Constitutional Special Rights for Malays have been able to push your kind of racist thoughts through.
Try reading again, and be honest with your reading - instead of twisting my words to suit your attempt to argue yourself from a dead end.
And an you tell me of any muslim communities that demand that non muslim follow Shariah,you yourself have noted that even the Chinese and Indian who "do not rock the boat" do not follow Shariah.
So in your mind,should the other ethnics in Malaysia follow Shariah?
Casue that is your argument...
As I have indicated to you - Dr Mahathir in his famous research papers : ''The Malay Dilemma'' - have claimed that the Malays had originated from Yunan Province in Central China.
Also Singapore is histocrically a Malay land,and by your last argument to ask me to return to my land of origin,well i am already here,,,would you do as what you speak and leave singapore then?
LOL..
You are as much Chinese, as the Chinese are Malays - the Malays and the Chinese are cousins !!!!!
Malaya and Singapore is historically a land belonging to the Orang Asli, subjugated by the China-Malays from Yunan, and with Singapore sold to the British by the Sultan of Johor, and becoming a British Colony - a land belonging to the British..!!!!!
Show me which part of the Shariah Law that is modern and applicable to the modern World in this 21st Century and into the Future, and I will debate you to the end.
Shariah laws ar applicable as it is in the apst tot eh present,i did ask you make a new thred and show which laws you consider archaic?
Thanks..
[quote]
Something for you to read..
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The government has strongly discouraged the publication of the Christian bible in Malay, and strongly discourages missionaries to attempt to convert the local Malay populace. Such missionaries are especially concentrated on more unorthodox Protestant sects, notably Charismatic and Baptist, who are noted for their zealous attempts to convert non-Christians. So far the Christians missionaries have not made a significant dent in a strong Muslim society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_Singaporean
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And as you have agreed,that minority in whatever civilization are always treated far lesser than the minorities.
LOL
Why do you display such anxiety to have me so easily agree to your point of views ? How did you so expertly arrive to such conclusions with you reading ? Have I misjudge your level of sophistication in education levels ?
Your referenced item clearly show that Malaysia being an officially Islamic State has been less generous and hospitable in allowing Christians to exercise their right to convert others in Malaysia.
This confirm the Statement in my previous posts that nearly ALL NON-Islamic Countries have been generous to accomodate Muslims, and allow them to practise and promote Islam in these NON-Islamic Countries; and such generosity and accomodation has never been reciprocated by ISLAMIC Countries to all other Religions in the World.
Should I be having the last laugh with your punctured attempt that clearly show you shooting yourself in the mouth with your useless effort to defend your radical position ?
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