What have I agreed to in most cases and have denied the facts ? What hollow facts have you produced that I have not punctured ?So where do you intend to lead with this line of argument ?
Read carefully what I have posted previously, and do not miss the essence of my previous reply which you have failed to address in full.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is in line with History thruout the world,shoulld the CHinese population increased then they would of course ask for tehir right.
As of now,the Malaysian Chinese have the right for their own reliogn,their own dialect and their own communities.
Also i have already answered you,but in most cases you agree but deny the facts.
i have no idea why..
My ''rubbish'' questions can only come out only from your posting of ''rubbish'' statements.Your statement smack of religious and cultural chauvinism.
Are you forgetting that Budhism has also many followers from different races, and so has Christianity and Hinduism.
What rubbish are you regurgitating that throughout the world there are different races/nationality - same religion ?
Are there no other religions except Islam ?
You are testing my hospitable sense to some extreme.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Umm you did ask about Islam not other faith,
And did you not just asnwered yourself that in Buddhism,Christianity and Hindusim ther are many races practising the same faith?
So are you asking a "rubbish" question?
Angry ? What makes you think that I am simply angry ?
Either you are being purposefully provocative or you are being mischevious in some dangerous way.
Have you not educated yourself that the Malaysia Government and its Relgious Council is one of the biggest religious biggot that anyone can witness, or have you conveniently been hit with some amnesia ?
Even when your Prophet has taught and written in the Koran that Muslims who decide to change their faith should be allowed to leave Islam's embrace, the Malaysian Muslim zealots have made life tough for those who no longer believe in Islam. To make matters worst, while the Malaysian Constitution guarantee Religious Freedom to ALL Malaysians, the same FREEDOM is not given to Malaysian MALAYS.
Look at the map of Africa and the Middle-east, and you ask yourself - then name to us which Islamic Countries will allow some generosity for other religions to spread their alien religions in any of the Islamic countries on that map ?
Why the hypocrisy of demanding political space from foreign host countries, but not reciprocating with the same generous treatment in the Islamic World to the Religions from other foreign countries ?-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
provocative,can you tell which part makes you angry?
It is the simple truth..is it not?
And as far as i know only Saudi Arabia restrict the propagation of of other reliogn.But that reason is simple,Makkah is the Holiest site in Islam and there are no non muslim there,so would it be justified to have buiding of other faith when there are no adherents?
Also Sauid Arabia do hire lots of non muslim but they are not forced to convert but are allowed to pray in their own but they are not allowed to preach.
Hope you cna provide more coutnries if you are able..
can you provide more and the link thanks.
And this thread is not to promote the future dominanc of Islam,alhamdulilah you agree) but raher to show why the radical do as they do.
And the funny part is that i i do not use the word Osama,or in support but you continuously do...and your assertion that other do too..LOL
What rubbish are you espousing now ?
As for the law of Apostasy,the same rulling applies to all of the Abrhamic faith tho it is not followed.
Are you being ingenious or what ?
Also would you consider that the SG gov is also a religous Bigot for not allow a Malay Bible to published or allowing people to convert muslim?
[/b]''Hypocrisy'' that exist from a weaker and ignorant person can be excusable.
And i think that that most muslim majority coutnries and muslim governed would not allow such proseltying.
But then again,muslim from these coutnries do not preach to get converts too.
But ocnverts come either will we or nil we,Alhadmulilah.
But i expect tha in time as the number of minority non muslim increase,if they do increase,then t will change,if not muslim coutnries will remain..muslim.
Also,the "hyprocrisy" exist thru mankind history,it is inevitable .
[/b]
Why are you so anxious to have me agree with you, and at the same time being so desparate to prove my contradiction ?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Salaam,
What nonsense are you spouting now ?
Did you not refer to your earlier post that Muslims are not represented in Government ?
My post responded that your belief that Muslims are not represented is FALSE remains correct - as there are Muslim MPs in the UK Parliament, as well as there are Muslim representatives even in the respective legislature and Civil Service of the different European States.
The number of MPs may not be to the size that you desire, and it is entirely due to the fault of the Muslim Community for being dependent on the Leadership from the Mosques.
Such leadership are from Imams, who have now been found NOT to be locally born or bred, but are ''imported'' and ''trained in the madrasahs located in the mountains and squalid cities of the Middle-east, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Egypt, Morocco, Libya, Algiers, Iran and other Third World Countries''.
These Imams were found to be trained on a curriculum that is based on rote learning of Koranic teachings that date back to the Medievial Values and Social Standards.
Worst still, these Imams can only speak in the native tongues of their own country of origin - and despite being engaged by mosques in the various European countries to provide religious leadership to a new generation born and grown up in Europe, they could not communicate with a new generation unable to speak their own mother tongue, and influenced by modern technologies and value systems that are totally alien to the Imam.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well here is your contradiction..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Atobe wrote
Your claim that Muslims are not represented in Government is false due to your limited knowledge of the existing events beyond your local religious knowledge.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So here you say,Muslim are represented..
But below you wrote..
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Atobe wrote
The fact that Muslims are not as well represented in Western Government is largely due to the poor 'Religious Leadership' in the Islamic Community that looked to Islam for guidance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So isnt it a contradiction?
My stance was that Muslim are not reprsented,you disagreed than agreed wiht my views,,hmm..
Also,then you say they are represnted bt then say "not be to the size that you desire"...so in you mind is it represented or not? I am confused now..LOL
Most Third World Countries that are NOT ISLAMIC and DO NOT have any Muslims have been able to pull themselves from their backwardness as they are not wasting time in rote learning ancient Medievial Values; nor are their progress being held back by any narrow Medievial Religious restrains or constrains from progressing in Scientific and Industrial knowledge.
Anyway,then you say it is the fault of the Muslim for following the Third World Coutnry Imams,,is that right.
Then you say that theya re taught to follow mideval teaching and rote learning.
Well most countries in the world are third wolrd,but does that inhibit learning?
b]
[b]What is the use of an Imam from Arabia - or from any other Islamic Third World country - with their ability to [i]''speak far more and have greater knowledge of Islamic teachings'' - in preparing the World Citizens to face this 21st Century of Scientific and Industrial challenges ?
Also since the "third world" imam are from Arabia and thus they speak far more and have greater knowledge of Islamic teachings,you blame the adherent of the religion to follow the source?
Do the Buddhist impose their existence onto the larger community, or DEMAND that the Law of the Land be replaced by Buddhist Rules of Ethics - in the manner that Muslims demand that Shariah Law takes precedence over Secular Laws ?
May i ask,do you blame Buddhist when they ask for a religious man who dont even share the smae language wiht them?
you have been round Singapore and i am sure you have heard of the mantras,,do you understand them?
Unlike Islam, all other Religions have seen their Religiious Leaders bring their people to appreciate a set of value systems that are relevant to the demands of modern times.
o in your view,it is plain wrong to ask a foreigner to teach about reliogn despite the fct that it started from their land? and thier language?
How about Bahia faith? do you also condemn that language?
Or the LAtin Mass,do you understand Latin?
Also,when you say that Islam Imam are of midevail times,,can you tell me dont every other reliogn?
When you went to school did you learn of Buddha of Midevail times,,or Siddharta?
When you are taught of Prophet Jesus as were you taught of Propeht Jesus as in midevail times or now?
It is surprising snce most holy book are still in the olden language but you condmen Islamic Imam? LOL
It is not too clever to twist your position and represent it to be mine ? Since when have I ''advocated that violence when a minority become a majority'' ?
Also Most muslim world wide agree that Imam must be able to be reach the community and Inshallah every wesern antion shall have a Intitution to train Imam,but they will still learn of Midevail times..LOL [/quote]
Tertiary Institutions have taught history dealing with Medievial Times, but are we expecting the students to be bound by the teachings from the Medievial Times - or to learn from past errors and failures of medieval methods and values so as to find new ways to meet the challenges of living in the 21st Century ?
Are you disputing the findings of the researches in UK and in Holland that the majority of Imams are employed without any understanding of the problems of the Muslims living in these countries ?
Are you doubting that the inability of the foreign Imams to speak the languages of the host countries have already made these foreign Imams irrelevant - when they are unable to communicate or provide guidance to the young Muslims from UK and Holland ?
It is due to the generosity of the people of UK and Holland that they have created knowledge centres in their Tertiary Institutions to train Modern Imams[i], who will have knowledge of Medievial Times being made relevant to the UK and Dutch social, cultural, economic, industrial and political challenges.
Surely, the modern Imams - trained in such Western Tertiary Institutions - will not preach in the same manner as the Imams from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan - who will probably preach the exchange of an eye for an eye', or death by stoning or beheading to those found guilty of capital crimes ? Can these Third World Imams change their lessons well learnt from their rote learning of ancient values, and review their familiarity with the demands of women being fully covered, to be unheard and unseen except by their parents, brothers, and husband ?
No need to visit so far away to experience the stupendous brilliance of the Imams, when a Malaysian Imam will impose his views as that of the Prophet by claiming that a Malaysian Malay actress had violated Islamic teachings by having her hair shaved.
Should I be laughing at your simplistic argument that is made without any clue as to what is going on outside of Singapore ? No, I will let you have more space to hurt yourself.You are in no position to tell anyone that Islam is LIFE, when you have no values as to what Life is all about, not when you advocate for a minority migrant race to assert itself with violence when it has reached a critical mass in numbers in a host country.
If Islam is LIFE, you should be the first to denounce the use of terrorism and violence to achieve any political or religious objectives.
For your information, ISLAM is NOT the only religion that advocate its Religion is LIFE - so does Judaism, Christianity, Budhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Taoism, Shintoism, and all other mystique religions.
What is the worth of any Religion if it does not associate itself with LIFE ?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually i cna tell you as Ilsma is life for i am an adherent to the Islmaic faith.
Unless you are saying you know more than a muslim..LOL /quote]
If you are an adherent to the Islamic faith, and if you believe that [i]''Ilsma is life'' - why will you risk Life in your preferred approval of Islamic insidious expansion and dominance of host countries by the rapid and aggressive Muslim birth rates in alien host countries ?
Are you not creating a situation of loss in Lives during a struggle for supremacy between new alien arrivals into a host country ?
[quote]
And you also advocated the violence when a minority become a majority,you even made reason for why it is justified for the US and Australin to oppreses the natives..
Surely you and your Imam must be brilliant in knowing that the Prophet will have so much time that he will doodle to think of ''rules for all thng,even when you cut your fingernail'', and have you believe that it is ''the ahdith''.
Islam is life mean we have rules for all thng,even when you cut your fingernail,it is in the ahdith.
LOL.
My religion is ''HUMANITY'' - which can only be the anti-thesis towards Islam.
As for terrorism and violence Islam have laws for it too,but we have already covered this and you were not happy wiht the answer.
islam command you to fight when you are attacked.
To be the defender not the aggresor.
So the reliogn have laws as indepth as Islam,but i cant take your world for it lah casue i do not know what your reliogn is..
If you are more honest you will learn to depend less on LOL and face the contents of my post honestly and give some semblance of honest reply.
I beleive that if more and more non muslim reside in Mslim coutnries the law will change for Islam allow people to worship their own faith.
Again the Historical fact of minority becoming majority.
But i do not forsee this happening as the western world population is declining and need additional manpower from other coutnries to sustain their growth. [/quote]
On what basis do you claim that the western world population is declining ? The world population do not consist of the western countries, and the biggest population in the world are still China and India, and there are other countries as I have already stated in my present series of reply that are seeing also population increases and are non-Islamic.
Why should Muslim countries wait till more non-muslim reside before changing the law to allow non-muslims to worship their faith ?
Was it not the teaching of Prophet Mohammad for respect to other faiths, and that they be allowed to exist, and for muslims renouncing Islam to have the freedom of choice ?If you are a true believer in Islam, you should be more honest.
Which country that is secular and has open its door to Muslim refugees - economic or political - have not seen any Muslims community being instigated by their Imams to clamour stridently for more political space for Islam, with the ultimate goal of implementing Shariah Law that stand equal to or supercede the local laws of the Host Country ?---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am a muslim and from your world for me to be "more honest",,does that mean that i am already honest and you wnat me to be more honest?LOL
can you tell me in what way you wishfor me to be more honest?LOL
Agaain it is the same point i have made and which you agree,,minority become majority,,simple inst it.
If you have bothered to also include what you have originally posted with your effort to quote my response to it, perhaps you can weigh the words of what you have stated.This statement surely confirm your jingoistic Islamic views that are no different from the fascist and communist methods of surreptiously planting themselves in alien territories, multiply themselves like rabbits, then slowly forcing their presence on a sleeping host country with slow and insipid demands.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In what way was my stetement wrong?
you your self (i beleive ) endorse that most non muslim nation have a school to train imam in their language.
I just merely pointed out that the Holy Qurna is in Arabic...and thus they will need to learn Arabic.
The Quran translation into other languages are Ok but they are lacking in depth.
I hope you are not against people learning more than one languages? LOL
How could you possibly cover any topic when you will skip and hop with your replies to my posts, twist and turn from one century to another, creep in and out of issues at your own convenience, and making repetitive statements with different angles to a common theme in justifying Muslim radical actions to assert themselves for wider acceptance and freedom to exercise your own values without respect others ?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Salaam
Atobe wrote..If as a Muslim, you insist on being governed by Shariah Laws, can you be seen to integrate into a host country ? As a Muslim accepting the law of the land of the HOST Country, will you subsequently demand for Shariah Law to govern your Muslim Community ?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought we have covered this,it is hisotrical fact that as minority become majority they will make demand for their ..
Do you accept that fact?
Your tone and inocuous line of approach with your argument is so blatantly obvious that it does not take too much intelligence to know immediately your drift with your manner of argument - even if you were to hide it under a pile of false disguises.Your line of thought is so poor that it is reflected in the multiple errors with your spelling of the words that end up with your thought process becoming gibberish.
If you believe your words cannot be proven, why do you not talk to ex-PM Mahathir - he is a Muslim, and an expert in forcing his accusation on to Anwar making ''friends'' with gays and lesbians ?
While you are still in Malaysia, use the Singapore Straits Times 8 July 2007 edition as a guide - to locate the Indian woman, who wished to renounce Islam and be a Hindu, but was confined by the Malaysian Relgious Council and she claimed to have been tortured by being force fed with beef.
Such is the barbarity of the Malaysian Malays in enforcing and misinterpreting the teachings of the Prophet.
And you are willing to make useless defense of a religion that is bankrupt of any modern theological thinking ?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry if my spleeing upset ou,but from yourreply i can see that you understood my reply..Alhamdulilah.
is this the best you can offer that do not even resemble even a notion of apology or retraction to the wrongs that Islamic Shariah Laws have done towards the Indian Woman's Right to renounce Islam that was forced on her by parentage's choice of religion ? Despite your avoidance of the issues with an explanation of what Islam allows and disapprove, the fact remained that this Malaysian Indian women was tormented by Muslim zealots, as well as having to suffer physical abuse and religious ignominy of being forced fed beef when she is born of Hindu Indian lineage.
And as for Mathir assertion that Anwar is gay,well i dont know,it is between them and what Mahathir knows right..
Force feeding is not allowed in Islam,nor is torture.
As i have said before,in Islam we have accoutnability,if a person sin,in knowledge his sin is greater.
Inshallah,the truth shall come to light.
And may the woman choose wisely,an interesting case...
As is the case of a Chinese man of wrong parent..
What else can you say to a statement that is based on the reality of the thoughts that you have expressed, and which I have managed to filter out the real message behind your inocuous statements made.
Again,can you tell me in what way is Islam bacnkrupt in any theological thinking?
thanks.. [/quote]
The fact that Islamic Theology can have replicas of product like you that avoid addressing obvious social issues such as what has been stated in the preceding paragraphs of the Malaysian Indian Women - already confirm the bankruptcy of Islam's theological thinking.
[quote]As if being a religious chauvinist is not enough, you will venture into being a gastronomic one too ?
Either you are bankrupt in your values, or you are more politically shrewd then you have shown yourself to be; or I have over estimated your ability.
Then again, Osama bin Laden also took a low profile and went about his insiduous ways only to unleash his horror onto the World Community in the most unexpected form taken.
All that you have described in the various posts, point to this purposeful trend of Islamic migration, high pro-creativity, critical mass in numbers, insipid demands, and more purposeful insiduous push, with a final rush to seize open opportunities at the right moment.
Are you for real ?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really have no idea to respond to this,just statement.
Well i do love to eat..but do you go and eat prata from non indian when the indian make the best prata?
And wow,you make Osama into such a brainiac..
Are there any similarities between sharia and other faiths – when you have already answered your own question from one of your last posts that similar shariah laws in Abrahamic faiths are already no longer practiced ?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Salaam,
How did you answer my question, when I had asked it after your last posting ?
Even now, you have not even addressed the questions raised.
The ''Chinese and all the other races'' that have migrated into new and foreign countries have never demanded for their own Laws to be applied for their own Community - as the Muslims have demanded for Shariah Laws to govern Muslim Communities in host countries.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you tell me where the demand are for Sharia in foreing coutnries thanks..
If the demand is growing then Inshallah in time if the birth rate reamn it will happen.
Actually,may i ask,do the Chinese have a set of religous laws?
I mean like Taosim?
Or Buddhism?
can you provide an exaple of any similiarity between sharia and other faith thanks..
No before the arrival of the Sultan of Johor the land belonged to the Orang Asli - why do you have a unique mental ability of suffering selective amenesia ?
Just hope you will go this link and read about this..
In it it show of how the muslim in the Uk and the Jews are demanding for additional power to their court.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Orthodox Jews go to the Beth Din to settle their disputes," says Jonathan Greenwood, a solicitor who represents many Jewish businessmen at the court.
Orthodox Jews go to the Beth Din to settle their disputes - they believe it is a religious obligation to go there
In an ICM survey of 500 British Muslims carried out in February 2006, 40% of respondents said they would support the introduction of Sharia in predominantly Muslim areas of Britain.
The UK's most prominent Muslim organisation, the Muslim Council of Britain, opposes the idea, saying it will not support a dual legal system.
But some of Britain's Islamic scholars have called for a different approach - Sharia legal code in areas such as family and inheritance, applied through the secular courts.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6190080.stm
Also an artilce of a Bahai faith..
http://www.pluralism.org/resources/tradition/essays/sikh7.php
http://www.pluralism.org/news/intl/index.php?xref=Kirpan+Discrimination+Cases&sort=desc
All these are sign of a minority growing into a majority minority and asserting their right. [/b][/quote]
Even without your referenced link, your radical agenda of Islamic domination of the Free World is already obvious from your line of argument.
Why do you even bother to reinforce your position ?
[quote]
Dream on if you believe that Singapura is a Malay land, or even if Malaysia is a Malay country too.
If you have not read Dr Mahathir's book about the 'Malay Dilemma' - in it he had researched and found that the Malays were originally from Yunan, China; and the True Bumiputras are the Orang Asli of Malaya, the Sakais of Sarawak, the Kadazans of Sabah.
The Malays are no better of as the Chinese in Malaya and Singapore, and are actually cousins from China.
Singapure a Malay country ? Are you having a ''High on a Cloud SEVEN'' ?
It was sold by the Sultan of Johor to the East India Company for a few thousand pounds, precious stones, cloth, and incense.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Umm arent you contradicting yourself again?
You know that it was sold to the east India Company? by the Sultan of Johor,so the previous owner is the Sultan of Johor.
So that mena the land is Malay,right..LOL
Again, you conveniently ignore my question : are you tempting fate to fall on Muslims to follow the path of subjugation 200 years ago ?
Surely you are not that dumb to have read my lines wrongly ?
Why would the Australian or the Americans return to UK - when the natives have been subjugated to their superior values and culture ?
I will repeat my analogy again and update my lines to address your reply:-
If I have taken over a house from someone else - either through purchase or from bank seizure - and if I should welcome you into my house: do you expect me to accept your views that I must allow your religious customs and laws to exist alongside my house rules ?
I can accomodate your curry, blachan and sambal that stain my table-wares, but should I tolerate your insistence that I do not eat pork or mutton, stop burning my incense and my incantation ?
If I allow my children to listen to your Islamic teachings, will you allow your children to listen to the teachings of Christianity, Hinduism, Budhism, Taoism - all from the different tenants staying with me ?
Should I pack up and leave my house, or kick you out before you stab me when I am asleep ?------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again using your anolgy,it applies to all races who were minority then become a majority.
you yourself have said that the US and Australian have sudjugated the natives.
If according to you analogy,the US and Australian should have have been killed even bfore they become a majority.
i know you already accepted the fact of the HISTORICAL facts of minority becoming majority syndrome,but seem to cant accept that Muslim birth rate is far higher than their western coutnerpart.
So again,i have already answered your question as simple as possible.
Having laws for apostates simply already go against Islam's Prophet Mohammed's teachings that allow a Muslim to renounce Islam.
You should take a lesson in propaganda from the Information Minister who served the EX-ecuted Iraqi President Sadam Hussein.
At least he did a more convincing job at self-denial of the reality of events during the ''Operation Iraqi Freedom'' than your useless line of claiming ''Islam do not force conversion, and the laws of your religion is binding to you, we do not enforce it''.
If Islam do not force conversion, why force someone who intend to leave Islam ? Why force a non-believer to accept Islam when there is a marriage to a Muslim partner ?
Why would you want to have me to expect you to enforce my Religious Laws onto myself ? In anycase, no other Religions will have ''A Law'' similar to the Shariah Laws that dictate medievial values onto 21st Century humans.
With you being a Muslim, why should I believe that you can be so generous as to enforce my own Laws onto myself ?
Records have shown that every Muslim countries - (and non-Muslim Countries too) have never allowed alien laws to take precedence over National Laws.
If this is not pure idiocy to think that your insidious line can slip pass the radar ?
Shariah Laws compatible with 21st Century Laws ?
Judging from the abuse of the beautiful women in the Islamic Community, and with the menfolk getting away from crimes of abuse due to the unbalance nature of the Shariah Law that disadvantage Muslim Women - can the Shariah Law come close to even be compared with 21st Century Law
I leave it to you to convince anyone who is interested in your jingoistic knowledge of Islam.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually when i say Islam does not force you to convert into Islam,but we do have laws for apostates as do all the Abrahamic faith.
Again your persist in your sentimental attachments with values and practises of a by-gone civilization that is long dead.
And why a non believer to convert is simple,should not the loving couple also meet in Jannah?
Also poltically it is a means to propogate Islam.
It is the same for Judaism,also an Abrahamic faith.
Also,all the Abrahmic faith have laws similiar to Sharia,that includes Judaism and Chritianity.
So what is your point about a woman being raped every 2 min in the US – (when you source to this information is dubious absurd ) ?
And we muslim cannot for a non muslim if they do not want to follow your own laws,that is between you and and god religion.
If you profess to be a so and so,but do not follow your own laws,we do not stop you..
Actually,recods show that in the time of Prophet and after chrisitan and Jews follow their own laws.
A point to note,search for teh golden age of the Jews,you will see it is under Islamic rule.
Can you define your accusation of wihin the Islmic community and the coutnries thanks.
Also,just a point in the US every 2 min a woman is raped..
So rape occur in all nations irregardless of religon and nationality.
http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm
Have you suddenly suffered amnesia, or was there something erroneous in your earlier arrogants statements made that you are now trying to hide ?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Salaam,
Seriously, do you know enough to mix different issues into one over glorified statement about birth control policies with personal material values ?
Have you outsmarted yourself this time ?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suppose you cant show me then,well Inshallah i shall search and earn,if i find it would you too like to learn?
Can you tell me how i ahve outsmarted myself?
Originally posted by Zulkiflim: 9 July 2007 08.15 AM
Salaam,
What was your point in emphasing on the productive performance of Muslims compared to other races - especially your emphasis towards Israel ?
Is there any point in chosen jingoistic line of debate ?
Has the brilliant performance of the Malay birthrates in Singapore - compared with the other races - proved anything except to burden those Malays in the lower income group with more mouths to feed, marital breakdowns, divorces, broken homes, delinquent kids, drug abuses and all kinds of social problems given the size of their population when compared to the other ethnic groups ?
This remain the same for the other Islamic countries with uncontrolled birthrates that remained in the Third World despite their wealth in natural resources and human population size.
You maybe living in the 21 Century, but unfortunately are you part of it ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
umm iso are you able to privde data on your asertion of prodcutive performance of Muslim.
I have no idea of the avialability of the statistic,so pls fill in my ignorance and provide the data..thanks..
And this debate is about filling both of with each othr point of view,what is the point of saying a statement wihout facts?
And just to point out a fct,can you tell me of 2 families one with one child and the other with 5 children,,who would be more affluent?
Who will live the lifestyle they choose.
The western world and Sg have done much to curb the lack of birth rate but in all their effort they do not check the fundamental problem that is selfsihness.
We all desire to live the life we want,in happiness and confort,but will children give us these material comforts?
NO,,and that is what happening thruout the entire first world,material comfort before families.
Hope you cna provide me wiht the data thanks..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seriously, do you know enough to mix different issues into one over glorified statement about birth control policies with personal material values ?
Have you outsmarted yourself this time ?
Originally posted by Zulkiflim: Saturday 7 July 2007 05.19 A.M.
I believe that in the future more and more countries will have no choice but to cater to and support Islmaic views,as population makes a poltitician.
Inshallah,you can check for the birth rate of muslim in western coutnries as compared to their counterparts.
A good comparision would be Palestine and Isrealis
Palestinian birth rate is 3~4X while the Isrealis are stagnant..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did I make the arrogant claim that Muslims are the most fertile baby producers in the world - OR were you the guilty party ?
Did you not challenge me to check the birth reate of muslim in western countries, and with a good comparison would be Palestine and Isrealis... Palestinian birth rate is 3~4X while the Isrealis are stagnant.. ????
How quickly and conveniently you switch side to claim that I made an '' assertion of prodcutive performance of Muslim.'' ?
Despite your attempt to be intelligent by asking silly questions - the fact remains that the Singapore Malays has the highest rate of failed marriages as a percentage from their Community, and despite the low income levels in most Malay households, the fertility rate amongst the Malays are higher than the Chinese, Indians or the Eurasians - which is the cause for the problems of the Malay Community having the lowest numbers with high education.
Do you still believe in the superiority of a higher birth rate compared to other ethnic groups ? Is there anything to be proud of when high insensible productivity in birthrates result in economic hardship, and degradation of living standards ? Where is the sense in your line of argument ?
If you know how to Google, go for the Statistics that are available on this - why do you suddenly feel so ignorant on googleling ?
Did I make the arrogant claim that Muslims are the most fertile baby producers in the world - OR were you the guilty party ?
Did you not challenge me to check the birth reate of muslim in western countries, and with a good comparison would be Palestine and Isrealis... Palestinian birth rate is 3~4X while the Isrealis are stagnant.. ????
How quickly and conveniently you switch side to claim that I made an '' assertion of prodcutive performance of Muslim.'' ?
Despite your attempt to be intelligent by asking silly questions - the fact remains that the Singapore Malays has the highest rate of failed marriages as a percentage from their Community, and despite the low income levels in most Malay households, the fertility rate amongst the Malays are higher than the Chinese, Indians or the Eurasians - which is the cause for the problems of the Malay Community having the lowest numbers with high education.
Do you still believe in the superiority of a higher birth rate compared to other ethnic groups ? Is there anything to be proud of when high insensible productivity in birthrates result in economic hardship, and degradation of living standards ? Where is the sense in your line of argument ?
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I did say ht Muslim birth rate is higher as comared to western world.
So did you check on the data?
If so can you show me what you have gleaned thanks..
And just to refresh your memory,,his is what you wrote about muslim malay :-
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''No need to go that far, Singapore alone has shown our Muslim brethens to out-perform the other ethnic communities, despite being in the group being in need of most economical and social help.
What was your point in emphasing on the productive performance of Muslims compared to other races - especially your emphasis towards Israel ?
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But dont worry if you dont have the data i will just assume it is but a statement.
Can you povide data for Muslim having the "highest rate of failed marriages and Malay Community having the lowest numbers with high education. "
Hope you cna back this up with data,would love to read it Inshallah.
And again higherfertility means that that race will intime be the majority in all aspect.
Arousal and admiration are two different emotive reactions.Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
salaam,As one small sample of what makes me different from your preferred backward values : at least, I can safely admit that I prefer my women not to wear scarfs that hide their beautiful hair; as hair alone will not arouse my sexual desires, in the same manner that it will somehow arouse others who insist on having their women's hair covered but never shaved.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see then the woman is for your pleasure to look at?
And your arousal is clearly more important that her modesty.
The Hijab is for Modesty.
Is it any fair means of comparing the women who will VOLUNTARILY enter nun-hood and adopt the habits of the nuns to the involuntary imposition of the Islamic clothing onto the Muslim women ?
And you claim tha your thinking is FORWARD,trully i would say it is barbaric.
Also Hijab is alos worn by other reliogn other than Islam,Nun too,do you find them backward too?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeitWr1OzCc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZVYJNvauwo&NR=1
in Islam both men and women wear the Hijab.
Women are to cover their hair ,the face is subjective.
For men they cannot bare their shoulder and must cover till the knees
In Islam he body of the man and woman is for just themselves not for others.
Another hollow statements based on your own personal speculations of more and more converting to Islam ?
If this is your 21 century then is it any wonder why more and more women are converting to Islam and wearing the Hijab?
Astarfillah,such ill thought,you demean women thouroughly.
Yes, if you live by the sword, be prepared to die by the sword - as taught by your own archaic medievial values of Islam.
Read my post again, and do some justice to your reputation of some professionalism in twisting statements made by others to suit your own ends.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did and it sound as violent as it was the first time i read it.
And also lawless.
your own words..
''When monkeys go amok to terrorise a Community, and will not be pacified with bananas or peanuts - the next best thing to do to remove the nuisance is to shoot those ''crazy monkeys''.
We should be grateful that 'George Bush is the Biggest Terrorist around' - to terrorise those ''Crazy Monkeys'' with his - ''You can run, but you cannot hide'' approach.
No, I am simply following your backward religious teachings - which approves 'an eye for an eye'; except that I bring it further by 'Fighting Fire with Fire'.Why will you now deny the embarrassing aspect from the values propagated by the medieval teachings of medievial values from an ancient religion - whose thinkers remained trapped in the rote training and rote learning of a Religion that allows no deviation ?
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Patato Potato
2 sides of the same coin.
So in effect you calim to Islmaic teaching,but i assure you it is your own teaching not Islam.
(And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong doers.) (Al-MaÂ’idah 5: 45)
The same law is applicable to both sides of the divide, except that the Policemen has 'Justice' on his side if violence is used to hunt down Osama, the Murderer, the Criminal.Lack of Law - whose Law?
Osama bin Laden had the Shariah Law governing his behaviour, while the London bombers were supposed to be subjected to the Laws of the Land - (UK Laws) - yet violence erupted.
Your thought process is becoming suspiciously desparate.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So thank again for provng my point,you apply the law for Osama and the bomber but not for other ..
As i siad,lack of law..simple..
Also me desperate,can you be more clear? Thanks..
The danger with little knowledge from littel people is that they have a tendency to look at specific events with little peep holes that skew the vision and screw the mind.Nothing in the referenced link confirm your statement that US had provided Saddam Hussein with WMD in its 7-year war with Iran.
Since when did the USA deliver any WMD to Saddam Hussein ?
Where did you get your facts from ?
This is another typical hare-brain zeonphobic jingoism of a Muslim against US aggressors.
Click on the reference piece marked in blue and try to digest the info.
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thanks for the link..
Some excepts from there..
''The U.S., having decided that an Iranian victory would not serve its interests, began supporting Iraq: measures already underway to upgrade U.S.-Iraq relations were accelerated, high-level officials exchanged visits, and in February 1982 the State Department removed Iraq from its list of states supporting international terrorism. (It had been included several years earlier because of ties with several Palestinian nationalist groups, not Islamicists sharing the worldview of al-Qaeda. Activism by Iraq's main Shiite Islamicist opposition group, al-Dawa, was a major factor precipitating the war -- stirred by Iran's Islamic revolution, its endeavors included the attempted assassination of Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz.)
Iraq received massive external financial support from the Gulf states, and assistance through loan programs from the U.S. The White House and State Department pressured the Export-Import Bank to provide Iraq with financing, to enhance its credit standing and enable it to obtain loans from other international financial institutions.
The U.S. restored formal relations with Iraq in November 1984, but the U.S. had begun, several years earlier, to provide it with intelligence and military support (in secret and contrary to this country's official neutrality) in accordance with policy directives from President Ronald Reagan. These were prepared pursuant to his March 1982 National Security Study Memorandum (NSSM 4-82) asking for a review of U.S. policy toward the Middle East.
The U.S., which followed developments in the Iran-Iraq war with extraordinary intensity, had intelligence confirming Iran's accusations, and describing Iraq's "almost daily" use of chemical weapons, concurrent with its policy review and decision to support Iraq in the war [Document 24]. The intelligence indicated that Iraq used chemical weapons against Iranian forces, and, according to a November 1983 memo, against "Kurdish insurgents" as well [Document 25].''
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All the above are from your link and i sincerely hope you did read it..
Will you accept your own link or will you ignore it?
If you are cynical about my siding with the US side of the story that is being told, which independent IRAQI source are you getting your information from ?Originally posted by Zulkiflim:
Salaam,
If I do not respond in the correct manner as you expected, it is due to your poor attempt at writing sensible English instead of writing Iraqi malay.
When Saddam Hussein went into hiding with his murderous sons and cronies, every TV stations had shown vivid scenes of jubilant celebrations and defacing of Saddam Husseins statues and pictures, and raiding of his palaces.
Are you denying this event ?
The problem that the Iraqis are facing today, is due to their inability to reconcile power sharing between the Sunnis and the Shiites, while the Kurd are satisfied that they have a homeland.
The murderous bombings are not the work of the US military nor the New Iraqi Army - but the work of the murderous Iraqi Muslims, who will not think twice to kill another Muslim from a different sect or tribe.
If you must blame the Americans, you could at least be more accurate and professional in your assessment and your views.
Stop looking at the US behind your green colored lens.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems you do accept what the Iraqs say but would rahter support the US irregardless of the victims.
And if you did not understadn my "english" you woulld not respond by changing the topic would you..
obviously you understood but would rahter play on the Saddam card.
So the irqis rejocing one time shown on the emdia sums it up?How many more times have the iraqis reacted angrily towards their state now?
Will you ignore that?
And the article i posted before sum it up very nicely,about the propaganda that Iraqi are the casue of the instability.
It all due to US invasion and bad planning.
Consider hat after the first gulf war,Iraqis were able to rbuild their coutnry even tho under sanction and a weakened Saddam was still in power.the Iraqis had electricity for 24 hours but now under the administration they have barely half a day..
Like i said before,the US violence and lack of law casued the insurgency ..
The Israelis have always pondered the easy manner in which they have so easily tackled the Arab minds, now I am wondering what makes it so easy for me to dance around your silly conceptions.Utter rubbish as already shown in the referenced article that I gave in my post above------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
your article show lcearly that the US supported Saddam with WMD,so i shall wait for your reply,Inshallah.
As I had asked - was the Lancet Report being objective or was it skewed ?How do you identify the body parts of an Iraqi killed by another Muslim who decide to indiscriminately set off a bomb in a public place filled with hundreds of innocent Iraqi Muslims going about their daily affair ?
Are the Americans to be blamed ?
When the Iraqi or foreign Arab insurgents decide to unscrupulously use Iraqi civilians as human shield to attack the US Military, what would you do to defend yourself if you are in uniform ?
The referenced piece - 'The Lancet' maybe right or it maybe wrong - but is it objective in its intention ?
It reported that 600,000 Iraqis died in the three years since Operation Iraqi Freedom toppled Saddam Hussein.
Did the Report mentioned that during ''Saddam Hussein's 35 year criminal rule, he had led Iraq into four foreign wars, two civil wars, and countless smaller conflicts in which some 1.5 million people died - including Iranians and Kuwaitis. The UN has discovered some 300,000 corpses in mass graves throughout Iraq, and many more corpses are still missing, including victims of chemical weapons. He is responsible for driving some 4.5 million Iraqis - almost a fifth of the nation's population - out of their homes. In the Kurdish area alone, he presided over the destruction of over 400 villages in 1980s.''
Are the Americans the cause of the present Iraqi problems ?
Or were the Muslim Jihadist entering Iraq to have a battle against the US Military just when Saddam Hussein has been toppled, and normalcy was about to be made real ?--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obvioulsy you did not read the article..
As the article show the survivors are able to tell who caued them harm,either bomb ,rocket fire,us soldiers or US war planes,,unless you are saying Iraqis insurgent have warplanes..LOL
If you wish to play with numbers without even understanding the manner it has been derived, you may as well include all the Iraqis killed uring the recovery of Kuwait during Operations Dessert Shield and Dessert Storm - as there were more killed during that period of time than this current operation.
And your comparison of 600 000 thousand iraqis dead by US soldeirs as compared to Saddam 1.5 million....may i ask,are you comparing?
Or is 1.5 million a goal?
thus your reason for comparison is as long as the US kills 1.49 million Irqis theya re NOT WRONG?
Hyprocrisy,and thus is the occupation any beter than Saddam,
Saddam has gotten his punishment,will the US and Colaition?
Also can you provide me wiht the link for the allegation that saddam murdered 1.5 million....which by all account according to link is with US aid.
The mistakes that the US Administration made was to listen to Defense Secretary Rumsfeld that the US can take over Iraq with just the two-PLUS Division of Ground Forces; and the fact that there were no clear plans how to manage Iraq after the overthrow of Saddam Hussein.
LOL,first off the US adminstration say it is insurgency,then foreign fighter then Iran..
All of this is to cover up their own mistakes.
under Saddam,Iraq has no link to Al Qaeda,wiht the US Al Qaeda now is in Iraq.
Who should Singapore attacked if those J.I. members succeeded in exploding the bombs at the MRT stations ?
For SEP 11,the US ttacked 2 countries out of revenge and feeling insecurity.
they killed 600 000 thousand, for an attack on their land.
Bt now you condemn those who fight for their own land..
All this would have stoped if the US did not stop calling Iraqis as COLLATERAL DAMAGE.