The Void Deck Special on the Jemaah Islamiah Arrests
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Tripwire,
is it my imagination or do you really see a conspiracy round every corner?
again, i would hesitate to claim that there was direct involvement up north but it seems pretty likely that these JI people have friends in high places.
but that is to be expected. no terror outfit can hope to survive (much less operate) without funding... somebody, be it JI, rich muslim businessmen, mid-eastern oil sheikhs, Al Q, or certain factions of certain gov'ts must be pouring in money.
and its always done such that plausible deniability can be exercised should things not go according to plan.
however, i hesitate to predict that war would have broken out if the JI had succeeded in their bomb plot. why? no linkage. the gov'ts involved in covert funding can never openly admit that and if Sg cannot pin the blame on them directly, it can't just mobilize and fight without a valid cause.
if the malaysians try to gain from the attacks, it still not war. its diplomacy (and gaining from other people's misfortunes is rather common in diplomacy). and they would've exposed their possible links in these attacks if they tried to further their position too obscenely from the crisis. this isn't a tom clancy novel.
besides, if it ever leaks, there's still the question of public opinion and international opinion. the chinese and indian malaysians may not totally agree with such nonsense, the US would come down very hard and probably wanna move in and burn every turban-wearing mujaheedin wannabe to a crisp and its still bad for business for Sg...
hence, i would think that this situation troublesome but not fatally so and war is a rather remote possibility... and i don't believe in the "terrorist domino theory". -
4 summary ..c below....
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hmm... lay back and wait for govt. decisions and actions... typical S'porean isn't it? Call me watever u likeOriginally posted by CX:again: alarmist. u do not apply the values of your enemies to fight them. u do not become your enemy to win. if u intended for that to happen, u might as well let them win. u end up in more or less the same place anyway!
they are playing on the worst side of human nature in perpetuating their terror war. u sink to their level, they win.
we have to present and prove that the society we want to live in is superior to the one these maniacs are trying to create. only then will they not have the support they need to succeed.
u start a witch-hunt and start hunting terrorists in every malay-muslim household and shooting every suspicious character u arrest and u lose the war before u even try to fight it.
Locking these bastards up for only 2 years are not sufficient. They deserve capital punishments. There are no reason to be merciful to 'em as to any drug dealers.
it's definitely not my idea start a witch hunt or to be suspicious of the local community. -
I wont call it imaginations per se....Originally posted by CX:Tripwire,
is it my imagination or do you really see a conspiracy round every corner?
again, i would hesitate to claim that there was direct involvement up north but it seems pretty likely that these JI people have friends in high places.
but that is to be expected. no terror outfit can hope to survive (much less operate) without funding... somebody, be it JI, rich muslim businessmen, mid-eastern oil sheikhs, Al Q, or certain factions of certain gov'ts must be pouring in money.
and its always done such that plausible deniability can be exercised should things not go according to plan.
however, i hesitate to predict that war would have broken out if the JI had succeeded in their bomb plot. why? no linkage. the gov'ts involved in covert funding can never openly admit that and if Sg cannot pin the blame on them directly, it can't just mobilize and fight without a valid cause.
if the malaysians try to gain from the attacks, it still not war. its diplomacy (and gaining from other people's misfortunes is rather common in diplomacy). and they would've exposed their possible links in these attacks if they tried to further their position too obscenely from the crisis. this isn't a tom clancy novel.
besides, if it ever leaks, there's still the question of public opinion and international opinion. the chinese and indian malaysians may not totally agree with such nonsense, the US would come down very hard and probably wanna move in and burn every turban-wearing mujaheedin wannabe to a crisp and its still bad for business for Sg...
hence, i would think that this situation troublesome but not fatally so and war is a rather remote possibility... and i don't believe in the "terrorist domino theory".
just merely exploring the realm of possibilities...
Obviously i dont have any prove to back up such a claim... but i merely doing a simplistic analysis base on who would benefit most if singapore is in chaos....
secondly... the silence from the north with regards to attempt by JIs to topple them seems rather disconcerting to me.... afterall, any country's govt on hearing such a plot would be in a state of heightened alert..especially if the conspirators might have other traitors among malaysian citizens... yet they are.......
BUT... in malaysia's case... they didnt even bother to send the ISD officers down to singapore to chit chat with those under singapore ISD detention to find out who and where might other conspirators might be in malaysia... and if they might have other plans as well....
in fact... they dont want to even talk too much about it as exemplified by their foreign ministers reluctance to dwell on the topic when queried.... they got something to hide??
IN short... their kind of inactions seems to me that either they knew the plans in advance (probably they planned it themselves) or they are somehow involved in it.....
and while Uncle sam maybe all powerful... i doubt uncle sam will level malaysia to dust simply because singapore was rocked by afew bombs....
Furthermore... there exist within the realm of politic... a certain level of moving space... actions which can bring results.. but wont trigger an avalanche..... a brinkmanship game... so to speak...
Malaysia might just think that they could pull off a stunt on singapore that will damage singapore's credibility suffieciently without at the same time trigger a millitary response from either singapore or america... afterall... its JI that plants the bomb... not malaysia...
And even if malaysia could be proven to be the hand behind the scene ( which is pretty damn hard to prove in the first place), the malaysian govt can just call it the actions of some rogue elements, fanatic elements or even lay the blame right on PAS and wipe PAS outright using the ISA and they kill 2 birds with one stone.... its not beyond the realm of possibility you know,,,,,..... -
well... the "realm of possibility" you speak of smells like pure speculation to moi no offence... just think its a little far fetched. possible, but not very probable...
they don't wanna talk about it? well... could be that they think themselves in a tight spot... praise it and burn in the eyes of the international community as another terror-state, condemn it too vigorously and burn in the elections... solution: don't talk about it too much in public.
they might be some quite bilateral co-operations. this doesn't have to be made public, especially if the nature of the co-operation might be perceived to be controversial (such as this)... i wouldn't know. would you?there exist within the realm of politic... a certain level of moving space... actions which can bring results.. but wont trigger an avalanche..... a brinkmanship game... so to speak...
anybody who tries that is playing with fire... besides, i don't think anyone who's tried it has ever succeeded long enough to enjoy the results. exception: uncle sam...
"say, lets stir shit in our neighbours' backyard... i don't think they or the international community would mind..." ... sounds familiar?
and this realm of possibility actually entails them antagonising everybody else to bring about changes that they may or may not be able to exploit. secretly fund extremists while seemingly hunting them, accusing PAS of islamic extremism while paying off the even more extreme ones to do their work...
end result? boom... PAS gets pissed, extremists gets out of hand, umno looks like the crook it really is, uncle sam gets pissed, thailand gets pissed, sg gets pissed and i'm not even going to try to speculate on the potential impact its going to have on the other ethnic groups in malaysia...
sounds like a lose-lose situation to me. well, they just might be myopic enough to try something like this, but it just doesn't seem like its a centralised decision... possibly the schemes of some well-placed upstart faction who's got nothing to lose by altering the status quo.
seasoned politicians comfortable in their cushy chairs would not likely want to try something like this... unless uncle mat wants to leave with a final blaze of glory THAT i think possible... -
don't equate common criminals to ideologically inspired terrorists... they both don't deserve sympathy, true.Originally posted by hardware:hmm... lay back and wait for govt. decisions and actions... typical S'porean isn't it? Call me watever u like Locking these bastards up for only 2 years are not sufficient. They deserve capital punishments. There are no reason to be merciful to 'em as to any drug dealers.
it's definitely not my idea start a witch hunt or to be suspicious of the local community.
but the difference is, the drug dealer would have to be caught with the drugs in his possession and proven to belong to him before CNB has a case. he flushes it down the bowl before they catch him, they have nothing to charge him with, he walks.
we extend the rule of law even to such revolting people as drug dealers and don't get me started that drug dealers do not intend to kill as many people. the drugs they sell can kill that many people directly and ruin many more lives indirectly. but we still apply the law fairly to them.
so why get emotional and wanna kill every terrorist the gov't claim to have caught before they did anything? is signal of intent the same as having committed the crime? does wanting to kill someone equate having killed someone before the act is actually accomplished?
its not so much the point what the gov't decides to do. its more of the point that you, kind sir, seem to have jumped a little ahead of yourself in wanting to kill them, make their families suffer and trash human rights... thats fear and hate talking. and if u don't advocate a witch hunt, then why implicate the innocent members of their family?
no offence Hardware, not that i'm picking on you deliberately either... just that i think we should agree to disagree on this one.
its not so much what the gov't thinks. its what u think despite what they say, since i don't think anyone is 100% docile and incapable of thinking for themselves. and i don't agree with your views that the terrorists should be lynched... -
Hi tripwire
To make things clear, I'm into conspiracy theories myself and your up north arguments does make sense. It does look dodgy. But how you explain the Malaysian crackdown of the KMM and not the JI?