the PAP government
-
Originally posted by unclebutcher:
why should we accord them some respect based on past performance, if current performance is below par?
my intention for this thread is to ask fellow forumnites to think about what the PAP has done for us in the past. i am not saying that they will always be an infallible party. i'm just saying that this is the party that has brought Singapore thus far; at least accord them [b]some respect.[/b][/b]
its meaningless
in fact, what sort of respect? not pointing out their failures to take action on certain things that are happening in our society today? -
I don't see the Ethnic Chinese being second classed in Hong Kong, even before 97.Originally posted by crazy monkey:still under the british ? and be second-class citizens ? -
Perhaps we shouldn't look at this on a party basis. The PAP, despite appearances, is not really a monolithic entity; there are subtle variations of power and ideology in a continuum amongst its members. Not everyone within the party plays the same roles or contributes to the same extent.
Instead, looking at the issue of contribution to the country on the basis of individuals, for example Dr. Goh Keng Swee and Rajaratnam, would let us arrive at more objective and balanced conclusions. -
these people were long goneOriginally posted by dakkon_blackblade:Perhaps we shouldn't look at this on a party basis. The PAP, despite appearances, is not really a monolithic entity; there are subtle variations of power and ideology in a continuum amongst its members. Not everyone within the party plays the same roles or contributes to the same extent.
Instead, looking at the issue of contribution to the country on the basis of individuals, for example Dr. Goh Keng Swee and Rajaratnam, would let us arrive at more objective and balanced conclusions. -
Hey little boy...why don't you study and observe more...you neither have any street smarts or paper and working qualifications to yak....Originally posted by unclebutcher:a significant number of people here are opposed to or are simply anti PAP. what i don't understand is, Singapore is where we are today because of the PAP government, from the 1960s to present. note i am NOT a PAP supporter. i cant vote. im a minor. i disagree with some of their policies, e.g. 7 % GST hike.
but what we should keep in mind is that, for all its shortcomings and stifling of freedom(press or otherwise), we should appreciate the PAP.
7% may not be a popular move but its a necessary economic move...there are other unpopular things that they have done that are worse than the 7% thingy.....
Talk only when you know the suffering of starting and running a corporate business, running a family....traveled the world, studied at various universities and at the same time eaten shit with the worst businessmen you can find in China, Middle East or even South America....and try running yourself to the ground working like a Chinaman or Bangladeshi...we all know that they have given us a comfortable life...but it won't be for long, once you have graduated(if you graduate) and come out into the cold unfeeling business world...
So enjoy your little comfy hidey hole of a life in Sillypore cause it won't last
-
Which does not prevent us from making valid comparisons between the contributions of our forefathers and the present government.Originally posted by laurence82:these people were long gone -
Singapore was already successful, in fact one of the most successful cites in Aisa in the 1960s and even before PAP and LKY became PM. PAP controlled education and propaganda would have us believe otherwise.Originally posted by unclebutcher:a significant number of people here are opposed to or are simply anti PAP. what i don't understand is, Singapore is where we are today because of the PAP government, from the 1960s to present. note i am NOT a PAP supporter. i cant vote. im a minor. i disagree with some of their policies, e.g. 7 % GST hike.
but what we should keep in mind is that, for all its shortcomings and stifling of freedom(press or otherwise), we should appreciate the PAP.
When Lee Kuan Yew took power, he found himself governing a mosquito infested swamp dotted with pig and chicken farms, fishing villages and squatter colonies of tin-roofed shacks.
Stand Cessor - Lands of Charm and Cruelty(1994). p11.
The above is and example of what LKY and his cadre would like us citizens to believe.
But then again, is the above just a myth?
The city works efficiently as a centre of world communications and trade. Its port facilities, in its international airport, its banking insurance and commercial facilities are the first in South East Asia.
The standard of living - one of the highest in Asia - is visible in the poeple on the streets, the shopping centres, the satellite towns andin the villages.
These panoramic views of typical sectors of Singapore present a fair idea of a city which has earned the name the New York of Malaysia
Taken from :
Social Transformation in Singapore (Singapore, Ministry of Culture, 1964), P105.
Just one of the many examples that LKY and PAP are being over credited for the progress that Singapore has made. I can quote many more if you like. -
Dear TS,
I used to be a frog in a well like you till I venture out into China and USA and spoke to my foreign friends.
Then after I venture into the working society, I began to pay more attention to the Govt policies etc.
Then I realised that our govt is deteriorating in its morality and sense of public service with each passing days.
The list of the wrongdoings of the govt is very long and I am sure you will be able to look them up in the Speaker's Corner.
While I admit that some of the policies made are good but many are downright dumb....The most noticeable one is the GST hike to save the poor...
When you are older and have the chance to venture overseas to experience another culture as well as way of living, you will gradually understand why the population of resentful ANTI-PAP people is growing... -
which is why they failOriginally posted by dakkon_blackblade:Which does not prevent us from making valid comparisons between the contributions of our forefathers and the present government.
they are supposed to work as a team as well, instead of just individuals -
Well, the present government makes a good team - they speak the same things in the same voice.
However, on a more serious note, one of my observations is that many people do not make the distinction between team and individuals in assessing the standard of governance in Singapore, especially in criticism of the government. For example, some like to portray the government as so heavily dominated by LKY that he becomes "the" government himself. Also, another tactic is to take the individual approach and allege that LKY as an individual took all the credit for himself while downplaying the roles of other capable ministers such as Goh Keng Swee.
These are just my comments, and should not be taken as any indication of support or disapproval of the present government. I am saying this only because there are some forumnites who tend to selectively interpret or misinterpret other people's words and proceed to launch unwarranted ad hominem attacks based on such ethereal "evidence". -
Originally posted by Jontst78:
They might have made Spore progress but this is a method used by the ruling party to persuade people to vote for them by saying how much they
Singapore was already successful, in fact one of the most successful cites in Aisa in the 1960s and even before PAP and LKY became PM. PAP controlled education and propaganda would have us believe otherwise.
[b]When Lee Kuan Yew took power, he found himself governing a mosquito infested swamp dotted with pig and chicken farms, fishing villages and squatter colonies of tin-roofed shacks.
Stand Cessor - Lands of Charm and Cruelty(1994). p11.
The above is and example of what LKY and his cadre would like us citizens to believe.
But then again, is the above just a myth?
The city works efficiently as a centre of world communications and trade. Its port facilities, in its international airport, its banking insurance and commercial facilities are the first in South East Asia.
The standard of living - one of the highest in Asia - is visible in the poeple on the streets, the shopping centres, the satellite towns andin the villages.
These panoramic views of typical sectors of Singapore present a fair idea of a city which has earned the name the New York of Malaysia
Taken from :
Social Transformation in Singapore (Singapore, Ministry of Culture, 1964), P105.
Just one of the many examples that LKY and PAP are being over credited for the progress that Singapore has made. I can quote many more if you like.[/b]
have contributed to the progress of Spore. Without them to run the country
the country seemed certain to face many setback. -
please elaborate on "below-par" performance.Originally posted by laurence82:why should we accord them some respect based on past performance, if current performance is below par?
its meaningless
in fact, what sort of respect? not pointing out their failures to take action on certain things that are happening in our society today? -
Do not flame me. i am not a "little boy". I will graduate, don't worry. So what if you've studied in "various universities"? does it make you any better? Doesn't the govt. have subsidies for smb's in singapore?("suffering of starting and running a corporate business").Originally posted by Coquitlam:Hey little boy...why don't you study and observe more...you neither have any street smarts or paper and working qualifications to yak....
7% may not be a popular move but its a necessary economic move...there are other unpopular things that they have done that are worse than the 7% thingy.....
Talk only when you know the suffering of starting and running a corporate business, running a family....traveled the world, studied at various universities and at the same time eaten shit with the worst businessmen you can find in China, Middle East or even South America....and try running yourself to the ground working like a Chinaman or Bangladeshi...we all know that they have given us a comfortable life...but it won't be for long, once you have graduated(if you graduate) and come out into the cold unfeeling business world...
So enjoy your little comfy hidey hole of a life in Sillypore cause it won't last
also, don't generalise. "running yourself to the ground working like a Chinaman or Bangladeshi". not all prc chinese or bangladeshis are menial workers.
It's a "cold unfeeling business world" for you because you feel alienated. you don't have passion for your line of work(if you are even working). -
without them, would you like to be a communist? or how about a standard of living like indonesia or malaysia?Originally posted by laurence82:why should we accord them some respect based on past performance, if current performance is below par?
its meaningless
in fact, what sort of respect? not pointing out their failures to take action on certain things that are happening in our society today? -
U should compared with HK cause HK has no MM Lee to lead but it managed to be the NY of Asia.Originally posted by unclebutcher:without them, would you like to be a communist? or how about a standard of living like indonesia or malaysia? -
mm lee is not a all knowing person. HK has a system of government equal in efficiency to singapore's one. i did not say mm lee is totally responsible for singapore's progress, rather i said it was the pap govt.Originally posted by will4:U should compared with HK cause HK has no MM Lee to lead but it managed to be the NY of Asia. -
I think Spore standard of living n freedom of speech should be compared withOriginally posted by unclebutcher:mm lee is not a all knowing person. HK has a system of government equal in efficiency to singapore's one. i did not say mm lee is totally responsible for singapore's progress, rather i said it was the pap govt.
these countries such as Korea n also the standard of living.
By asking the local to compare themselves with the neighbouring countries in a totally not a good benchmark. The ruling party is no doubt built up Spore
they cannot expect to use the same method to persuade voters to vote for them becasue for the past forty year of contribution. Look at the rate of migration among the local to other countries. -
Korea? which korea are you referring to?Originally posted by will4:I think Spore standard of living n freedom of speech should be compared with
these countries such as Korea n also the standard of living.
By asking the local to compare themselves with the neighbouring countries in a totally not a good benchmark. The ruling party is no doubt built up Spore
they cannot expect to use the same method to persuade voters to vote for them becasue for the past forty year of contribution. Look at the rate of migration among the local to other countries. -
South cause look at their companies well known in other countries.Originally posted by unclebutcher:Korea? which korea are you referring to?
HK people are known to be more creative n business minded which is
reason they migrate can set up duck rice shop in Canada or US.
Look at the Chinatown, so sucessful n they created by HK migrants. -
would we necessarily become a communist nation without PAP? we dont have a parallel timeline to prove your hypothesisOriginally posted by unclebutcher:without them, would you like to be a communist? or how about a standard of living like indonesia or malaysia?
and why indonesia or malaysia?
why whenever the government was pointed out wrong, we always go back to "at least we are not "
i like what the finance chief of Hong Kong said about his vision for HK as a global financial centre in the future, that they should look towards the world top centres as benchmark, like NY or London
why compare with Singapore, who is on par if not below their performance?
this means, why should we adopt a 'at least we are not so and so' kind of attitude?
why cant we go 'that nation is good, lets emulate or do better' or something
i dont understand this retrogressive attitude at all -
easyOriginally posted by unclebutcher:please elaborate on "below-par" performance.
why do we need a government who could not keep costs down, especially in areas they could control
public transport is a good example, housing is another
competitive wages for workers and ministers have meant entirely two different directions, strange -
Dear unclebutcher,
Salute you for starting this thread here. If you can stand firm to discern what are one-sided arguments, what is propaganda, and what are simply expressions of dissatisfaction or dissent, you are not a minor anymore.
Singapore has come along way. Until 1980, the impact of cold war due to difference in ideologies affected and molded us in many different ways. The PAP then certainly deserved all the credits, as the party that led us to independence, from the Brits, and Malaysia. Yes, they had the support of the people, all our forefathers, who were right to elect the PAP as the government. What were the alternatives then: elected the Barisan Socialists, submited to UMNO and stayed as a state of Malaysia, or continued to stay under the Brit as a colony.
Would any of these alternatives be better than the PAP? I doubt so. The worse would be to stay under the Brits as a colony. HK Chinese never had the Brits passports; neither would Singaporeans ever become Brits citizens. The Brits would want a local government to run Singapore to ensure there were enough tax money to go back to the queen, and if LKY agrees, instead of Chris Patten, we would have a government under LKY, and the system of elitism remains, for the few who are willing to serve the masters. The running dogs of the colonial master vs. the dogs of PAP..Â… Today I remain a Singaporean where I were a PAP dog or not, under the Brits, if I were not a running dog, I would be nobody.
The passport of the Special Administrative Region of China, HK is still more valuable than the passport of the State of Singapore, a Colony of the UK.
Before 1980, I would say that we owe the progress of Singapore to PAP, together with all our forefathers for their sacrifices in founding and building Singapore. And in the PAP, all the old cadre, LKY, Goh Keng Swee, Toh Chin Chye, Rajaratnam, ..... deserve our respect.
..... to be continued. -
We entered the 80s, the 90s, into the millennium. The cold war is over, China has opened up, national security was not a big problem except to prepare for possible regional conflicts. The next phase of national building took place. In foreign relation we extended and enhanced our relationships with countries far and wide. Our economy were transformed to be competitive, labors are not cheap anymore, so we went high tech, we invested in the region, and riding on the growth of world and regional economic boom, our economy grew even stronger, until 1997. Everything positive, and I also welcome the incentives for more children rather than the previous penalty for more than two children policy.
But during this period, the educational system took a turn into a mess. The merging of Nantah with SU, the EM3, the normal express gifted streams, later the independent schools, .Â…. and among these there are changes that are not part of the system, we had River Valley High School located in Ulu Pandan, and Tanglin School located at West Coast. All these confused the parents like hell. Nobody really knew coming or going. This was the result of Dr. Tony Tan, after visiting many schools in Europe and America. Still, there appears to be no end to such changesÂ…
This period would have been a perfect timing for growth and maturity in our political system. More people should come forth to participate in politics, to represent the voices of different segments of the society, the aging, and the growing upÂ…. unfortunately, with the booming economy, not many people were interested, besides, the ruling party make it very costly for any mistake made by opposition. We are even more unfortunate to have oppositions who were not disciplined enough and got sued for misappropriating governmentÂ’s postal services. Though we have more young faces in the parliament now, but all from the same camp. So one side get stronger and stronger with the other side weaker and weaker. -
but these people have long gone
respecting these people, or respecting the current party?
we must be able to differentiate -
Our public housing went up and down, One minute we have couples queuing for years to get their HDB flats for marriage, the next minute we have in Ponggol thousands of units unoccupied. Upgrading of all flats is good, but it has become political because the ruling party used that as incentive for voters in election. This is when people are beginning to feel that what belong to Singapore belong to PAP, a step over the line.
I understand there is a problem with labor shortage, and the impact of globalization. I can accept more foreigners coming here to do what we cannot do. But when foreign companies in Singapore are replacing able Singaporeans with foreigners; when PR are enjoying the same benefits as Singaporeans, all with the blessing from the government, solely on lower cost basis, I begin to wonder if our government values us as citizens, or money comes first. Is the nation built for us, or are citizens expandable in building the nation?
When more and more people are retrenched at earlier age, with problem even finding money to live to 55, the government is extending the CPF withdrawal age to 62, you can’t help but wonder if the government is concerned with the plight of those retrenched or simply afraid that they had to pay out CPF money earlier. After calling for Singaporean to be competitive in view of competition from rising China and India, the government announced their salary increment, and GST increase, I now believe what the Chinese says “guan zi liang ge kou” (Government officer has two mouth).
As aging problem become more imminent, with those born in the 50s, 60s, these old supporters of PAP in the building of Singapore entering their twilight years, the realization that Singaporean life expectancy is now increased to 79, and costs of medical care continue to go up, the government considers their job done after giving us Medisave and MediShield. It is not their responsibility anymore. This is when I question if there is any social morality in those involved in the management of medical services here.
DonÂ’t get me wrong, I am not - anti PAP. The city of Singapore makes me proud, with garden and cleanliness. I find MRT most convenient as in any world-class modern city, but the taxi service here still sux to the bottom. I am proud as a Singaporean, our SAF is strong, our passports allow me to pass to many countries without visa, Singapore name is known everywhere, we are multi racial, multi religious. But, there are things that Singaporeans need to improve, to change, in order to build on the foundations our forefather laid.
As a young man, be positive, to what is good and kind, for the people in Singapore; be alert, to gossip and policies that are against the interest of the people; be active, donÂ’t waste too much time on computer games; be responsible, donÂ’t just talk and scold; learn the right values in life, money is not everything; have the right perspective, Singapore is ruled by PAP but does not belong to PAP; take a longer perspective, many things take time to achieve, time is on your side; most importantly, be courageous, you are still young, just donÂ’t make big mistakes that have lasting consequences.
When you are out, observe the life of those around you, understand them. Read the newspapers and discuss with your parents how some policies affect them and your parents. Write to the press, improve the awareness of fellow Singaporean about our society, especially events that not normally reported. But most importantly, study hard, no guarantee what are the great things you can do for Singapore, but if you fail often in your exam, you can't even write to complain in this forums.
Have a good day and God bless your future.
P/S Migrating is not a solution to life and future of Singapore.