the PAP government
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agree.Originally posted by soul_rage:correction,
the pigs have been blowing their trumpets for far too long. I don't see the need to help them blow their trumpet by reminding ourselves that they are blowing the trumpet about their leadership
I am highlighting the credit for the donkey, the horse, and the other farm animals as I believe that their contribution has been grossly understated. -
I like the way you summarise.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Our public housing went up and down, One minute we have couples queuing for years to get their HDB flats for marriage, the next minute we have in Ponggol thousands of units unoccupied. Upgrading of all flats is good, but it has become political because the ruling party used that as incentive for voters in election. This is when people are beginning to feel that what belong to Singapore belong to PAP, a step over the line.
I understand there is a problem with labor shortage, and the impact of globalization. I can accept more foreigners coming here to do what we cannot do. But when foreign companies in Singapore are replacing able Singaporeans with foreigners; when PR are enjoying the same benefits as Singaporeans, all with the blessing from the government, solely on lower cost basis, I begin to wonder if our government values us as citizens, or money comes first. Is the nation built for us, or are citizens expandable in building the nation?
When more and more people are retrenched at earlier age, with problem even finding money to live to 55, the government is extending the CPF withdrawal age to 62, you can’t help but wonder if the government is concerned with the plight of those retrenched or simply afraid that they had to pay out CPF money earlier. After calling for Singaporean to be competitive in view of competition from rising China and India, the government announced their salary increment, and GST increase, I now believe what the Chinese says “guan zi liang ge kou” (Government officer has two mouth).
As aging problem become more imminent, with those born in the 50s, 60s, these old supporters of PAP in the building of Singapore entering their twilight years, the realization that Singaporean life expectancy is now increased to 79, and costs of medical care continue to go up, the government considers their job done after giving us Medisave and MediShield. It is not their responsibility anymore. This is when I question if there is any social morality in those involved in the management of medical services here.
DonÂ’t get me wrong, I am not - anti PAP. The city of Singapore makes me proud, with garden and cleanliness. I find MRT most convenient as in any world-class modern city, but the taxi service here still sux to the bottom. I am proud as a Singaporean, our SAF is strong, our passports allow me to pass to many countries without visa, Singapore name is known everywhere, we are multi racial, multi religious. But, there are things that Singaporeans need to improve, to change, in order to build on the foundations our forefather laid.
As a young man, be positive, to what is good and kind, for the people in Singapore; be alert, to gossip and policies that are against the interest of the people; be active, donÂ’t waste too much time on computer games; be responsible, donÂ’t just talk and scold; learn the right values in life, money is not everything; have the right perspective, Singapore is ruled by PAP but does not belong to PAP; take a longer perspective, many things take time to achieve, time is on your side; most importantly, be courageous, you are still young, just donÂ’t make big mistakes that have lasting consequences.
When you are out, observe the life of those around you, understand them. Read the newspapers and discuss with your parents how some policies affect them and your parents. Write to the press, improve the awareness of fellow Singaporean about our society, especially events that not normally reported. But most importantly, study hard, no guarantee what are the great things you can do for Singapore, but if you fail often in your exam, you can't even write to complain in this forums.
Have a good day and God bless your future.
P/S Migrating is not a solution to life and future of Singapore.
There are many different comments about singapore's government in this public forum. some are stating facts, some are somewhat hoping to see singapore disappear for unknown reasons, some are supporters of pap, wp, sdp etc, some are in for fun, some are genuinely concerned, some are scared of future.
i would like to say that everyone wants "face" and that include PAP mps and ministers. so probably the correct approach is to collect whatever facts presented by some knowledgeable but anti-pap forumers here and then present/discuss in private with the ministers directly. this is not impossible.
i met one minister at an old coffeeshop (80 cents per cup of coffee that type) near where i stay. he was there with his family for breakfast. We smiled at each other. All it took was one additional step from me to start a conversation and a feedback. I admit i did not take the additional step because i was with my family too and i was not ready to engage in any political discussions.
if having a coffee talk sounds difficult, one could join the PAP and feedback through the proper channels or even directly to the PM office and attempt to change things for the better.
remember it is attitude. if someone says something you dont like to hear, first decide whether he is factual or just anyhow whack, then analyse whether you agree. if you agree and feel that singapore should improve in some manner, and you are willing to step out, i think the proper way is try talking to the ministers or MPs directly first. They are humans with family too. -
it depends, if their minds are fixed what is the point if the common people talk to them on issues. They have their agendas to take care.Originally posted by Daddy!!:I like the way you summarise.
There are many different comments about singapore's government in this public forum. some are stating facts, some are somewhat hoping to see singapore disappear for unknown reasons, some are supporters of pap, wp, sdp etc, some are in for fun, some are genuinely concerned, some are scared of future.
i would like to say that everyone wants "face" and that include PAP mps and ministers. so probably the correct approach is to collect whatever facts presented by some knowledgeable but anti-pap forumers here and then present/discuss in private with the ministers directly. this is not impossible.
i met one minister at an old coffeeshop (80 cents per cup of coffee that type) near where i stay. he was there with his family for breakfast. We smiled at each other. All it took was one additional step from me to start a conversation and a feedback. I admit i did not take the additional step because i was with my family too and i was not ready to engage in any political discussions.
if having a coffee talk sounds difficult, one could join the PAP and feedback through the proper channels or even directly to the PM office and attempt to change things for the better.
remember it is attitude. if someone says something you dont like to hear, first decide whether he is factual or just anyhow whack, then analyse whether you agree. if you agree and feel that singapore should improve in some manner, and you are willing to step out, i think the proper way is try talking to the ministers or MPs directly first. They are humans with family too.
Isn't the negative feedback from the public to set up casino good enough for us to know what sort of govt they are? Doubt they will ever listen to the common people. -
verify doubts about the govt yourself if possible to get first hand impression and then draw conclusions, rather than get influenced by what others say.Originally posted by zix1:it depends, if their minds are fixed what is the point if the common people talk to them on issues. They have their agendas to take care.
Isn't the negative feedback from the public to set up casino good enough for us to know what sort of govt they are? Doubt they will ever listen to the common people. -
do i need to be influenced? I have my own mind and have been observing the way the govt works. Through their speech, newspaper articles and so on I get info about them. So where else do you suggest people get info and verify the info?Originally posted by Daddy!!:verify doubts about the govt yourself if possible to get first hand impression and then draw conclusions, rather than get influenced by what others say. -
u plp?Originally posted by Daddy!!:verify doubts about the govt yourself if possible to get first hand impression and then draw conclusions, rather than get influenced by what others say. -
We're 2nd class citizens..!! unless you're a a minister,pilot or president then you 're consider a 1st class citizens and for those who're exempted from NS or hav being in prison B4( depends on the case) you fall into the 3rd class category aka The OutcastOriginally posted by crazy monkey:still under the british ? and be second-class citizens ? -
Originally posted by wave24:We're 2nd class citizens..!! unless you're a a minister,pilot or president then you 're consider a 1st class citizens and for those who're exempted from NS or hav being in prison B4( depends on the case) you fall into the 3rd class category aka The Outcast
first class citizens get $3m salary. -
let me correct you..Originally posted by Daddy!!:remember it is attitude. if someone says something you dont like to hear, first decide whether he is factual or just anyhow whack, then analyse whether you agree. if you agree and feel that singapore should improve in some manner, and you are willing to step out, i think the proper way is try talking to the ministers or MPs directly first. (They are humans with family too.)
They're RICH humans with family too -
There is NO NEED for anyone to be influenced by anyone in here...
By watching what the government does and or implements, people can draw their own decisions and conclusions without trying to hold a reasoning dialogue with the government...
Since WHEN in SG history have they ever listened to Public Feedbacks and or Objections???
It so VERY clear, they are ONLY interested in MONEY... not the people and their livelihood and much less their welfare.... -
I think you mean $3million in properties!!Originally posted by zix1:
first class citizens get $3m salary.
Who the hell in S'pore earn $3million per mth??
I wanna rob that son of the dog mom!!
Anyone in -
not fair leh, we eat chao keow tiew $3 a plate, they also eat chao keow tiew $3 but our salary different so muchOriginally posted by zix1:
first class citizens get $3m salary. -
that's what I told that person whose ID is "daddy". WE all know, the difference is whether people voice it out or not. So the public opinion on setting up casino is ignored. With the heart and head so much into churing out lots of $$$, he just ignored the people and went ahead with it. REally, we don't need such a PM. !Originally posted by ShutterBug:There is NO NEED for anyone to be influenced by anyone in here...
By watching what the government does and or implements, people can draw their own decisions and conclusions without trying to hold a reasoning dialogue with the government...
Since WHEN in SG history have they ever listened to Public Feedbacks and or Objections???
It so VERY clear, they are ONLY interested in MONEY... not the people and their livelihood and much less their welfare.... -
Firstly, the PAP is not equals to the government.. if they are, that means the opposition would be seen as rebels to be "fixed" and anyone who supports the rebels persecuted .. and it would mean our PM's position was secured not through election but through inheritance (namely father to son). If the aforementioned were true, we might as well rename ourselves now to "monarchy".
Yes, let the irony sink in.
Does that also mean that, in light of what this party has done for us in the past, we should show our gratitude by allow this party to do whatever it wants and not be held accountable for poor decision making and usage of public funds, even at the expense of our futures, our ricebowls and - inevitably - our children?
I think TS needs to get out more.. live/study/work in other countries for abit, gain some mental balance and critical thinking skills. That's exactly what I did, and I've never looked back since.
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i have several encounters with people who are good with words. They can talk black to white and then white to black just to push their cases. Most interestingly, they use facts to support their arguments.Originally posted by ShutterBug:There is NO NEED for anyone to be influenced by anyone in here...
By watching what the government does and or implements, people can draw their own decisions and conclusions without trying to hold a reasoning dialogue with the government...
Since WHEN in SG history have they ever listened to Public Feedbacks and or Objections???
It so VERY clear, they are ONLY interested in MONEY... not the people and their livelihood and much less their welfare....
From this experience, I make it one of my life's lessons that however convincing the arguments and facts, I must verify it MYSELF before believing in it.
By watching the government does or implements is insufficient to draw a single conclusion.
Even if I assume that you are certain that they dont listen to public feedbacks or objections in SG history, i am sure you are not certain that there are good policies implemented by the government after the government did listen to feedbacks.
With all respect, you dont have the first hand evidence that the PAP party really never never listen to feedbacks from common people before deciding on policies, never never change their tracks after listen to feedbacks from common people in SG history.
If you have, you should write it here.
What you wrote above, is to me, as good as guess work. -
First off, who is there to query or check on what the government does? They are the ULTIMATE Law Maker, no one else could or are allowed to question what they do. This alone, will shelve ANYONE's intention to question, or secure any hard evidence against them.Originally posted by Daddy!!:i have several encounters with people who are good with words. They can talk black to white and then white to black just to push their cases. Most interestingly, they use facts to support their arguments.
From this experience, I make it one of my life's lessons that however convincing the arguments and facts, I must verify it MYSELF before believing in it.
By watching the government does or implements is insufficient to draw a single conclusion.
Even if I assume that you are certain that they dont listen to public feedbacks or objections in SG history, i am sure you are not certain that there are good policies implemented by the government after the government did listen to feedbacks.
With all respect, you dont have the first hand evidence that the PAP party really never never listen to feedbacks from common people before deciding on policies, never never change their tracks after listen to feedbacks from common people in SG history.
If you have, you should write it here.
What you wrote above, is to me, as good as guess work.
If by observing what they do doesn't prove anything, then I suggest you try petting a dog that is barking - since you may also believe that barking dogs don't bite...
Have they listened to feedback on their Stop at Two policy decades ago? If they have, we won't be suffering from Low Birth Rates now, would we? Did they listened to feedback from public about Casinos? Yes, they heard us all, but they say money is more important, and they rather contend with doing Damage Control. They do listen and they have heard the people, but, they have never HEEDED the feedbacks... hence, public has all but given up "talking" to them....
It is when NOBODY is interested in communicating with the government, that is a sign that the people have decided that it is useless, or have got plans to move out - leaving the government to their economy, their foreigners, and their policies....
The only think that can prove this theory, is for a war to happen here, and see for yourself, how many soldiers throw down their guns and walk away - not wanting to fight for a country that values foreign interests more, and a government that only cater to their own welfare, policies, and pockets... -
Originally posted by ShutterBug:First off, who is there to query or check on what the government does? They are the ULTIMATE Law Maker, no one else could or are allowed to question what they do. This alone, will shelve ANYONE's intention to question, or secure any hard evidence against them.
If by observing what they do doesn't prove anything, then I suggest you try petting a dog that is barking - since you may also believe that barking dogs don't bite...
Have they listened to feedback on their Stop at Two policy decades ago? If they have, we won't be suffering from Low Birth Rates now, would we? Did they listened to feedback from public about Casinos? Yes, they heard us all, but they say money is more important, and they rather contend with doing Damage Control. They do listen and they have heard the people, but, they have never HEEDED the feedbacks... hence, public has all but given up "talking" to them....
It is when NOBODY is interested in communicating with the government, that is a sign that the people have decided that it is useless, or have got plans to move out - leaving the government to their economy, their foreigners, and their policies....
The only think that can prove this theory, is for a war to happen here, and see for yourself, how many soldiers throw down their guns and walk away - not wanting to fight for a country that values foreign interests more, and a government that only cater to their own welfare, policies, and pockets...Originally posted by Daddy!!:From this experience, I make it one of my life's lessons that however convincing the arguments and facts, I must verify it MYSELF before believing in it.
What you wrote above, is to me, as good as guess work.
that person with ID Daddy is extremely adamant in what he believes and says, so no point telling him more. He talks and talks about verifying, but to date he has not replied to my question on how to verify. Just because he met with one MP in the coffee shop and they smiled at each other so he thinks so positively of them.Originally posted by zix1:do i need to be influenced? I have my own mind and have been observing the way the govt works. Through their speech, newspaper articles and so on I get info about them. So where else do you suggest people get info and verify the info?
From "Daddy" - i would like to say that everyone wants "face" and that include PAP mps and ministers. so probably the correct approach is to collect whatever facts presented by some knowledgeable but anti-pap forumers here and then present/discuss in private with the ministers directly. this is not impossible.
From the above para from his posting, he sounds like anti people here who voice out facts about the govt.
Let him be, he is that sort who bu jian guan cai bu liu lei! -
hmm... I don't know minor things, but here are a few major things that the PAP DID NOT LISTEN and their policies WERE DECIDED BEFORE 'discussing' with the publicOriginally posted by zix1:that person with ID Daddy is extremely adamant in what he believes and says, so no point telling him more. He talks and talks about verifying, but to date he has not replied to my question on how to verify. Just because he met with one MP in the coffee shop and they smiled at each other so he thinks so positively of them.
From "Daddy" - i would like to say that everyone wants "face" and that include PAP mps and ministers. so probably the correct approach is to collect whatever facts presented by some knowledgeable but anti-pap forumers here and then present/discuss in private with the ministers directly. this is not impossible.
From the above para from his posting, he sounds like anti people here who voice out facts about the govt.
Let him be, he is that sort who bu jian guan cai bu liu lei!
(1) IR. The way they started the debate, they have already decided to have the IR. People around me, many objected to the IR, and many of my friends said their friends also objected to it but they said Singaporeans support it (duh!!!)
(2) Ministers pay hike. Don't need to elaborate further
(3) GST hike. Don't need to elaborate further
(4) NKF. Did not listen to public complaints, just protect protect protect. -
from your response, lets take it that you did not and gave up understanding directly from the ministers for policies which you think negatively of. in other words, based on mass media and the result of a few bad policies, you make a conclusion. you could not and did not verify before concluding.Originally posted by ShutterBug:First off, who is there to query or check on what the government does? They are the ULTIMATE Law Maker, no one else could or are allowed to question what they do. This alone, will shelve ANYONE's intention to question, or secure any hard evidence against them.
because the govt make public policies, there are official statements or reasons to support them, just like in private sector. normally there are other factors at work which would not be discussed openly. let me give you an example.
US invaded Iraq unilaterally with a few coalition countries against the wishes the majority of the united nations and security council. The official statements were weapons of mass desstruction and spreading democracy in middle east through Iraq. Do the rest of the world really believe in the official statements? are official statements always telling the whole truth?
likewise, when the ministers got a big pay rise, the reason might not convince everyone. the next question is, what then is the real truth? the real truth can be good, it can be bad too. it is up to our imaginations. I can easily imagine a few good reasons why they do it. you certainly imagined the bad ones. but you and myself are none the wiser. only when we make the extra effort to discover the real truth, it is back down to speculation. -
Not true, and not correct in how you analyze the pay riseOriginally posted by Daddy!!:likewise, when the ministers got a big pay rise, the reason might not convince everyone. the next question is, what then is the real truth? the real truth can be good, it can be bad too. it is up to our imaginations. I can easily imagine a few good reasons why they do it. you certainly imagined the bad ones. but you and myself are none the wiser. only when we make the extra effort to discover the real truth, it is back down to speculation.
First of all, its not about good or bad reasons. Its JUSTIFIABLE reasons.
In the eyes of the public, they did not justify their reasons well because the money used is TAXPAYERS' money.
Yes Taxpayers' money! MY money. Your money.
If you go shopping for a sofa, you would ensure that the sofa is worth that price before deciding on paying for it. The salesperson would have to convince you on whether the sofa is worth its price
Its just that simple. They are not convincing on why they deserve the pay hike
For the pay hike issue, I feel more like a helpless guy being cornered by robbers and they demand that you empty your wallets. -
to the person with ID "Daddy", you have yet to reply to my question on how to verify info. PLease reply. Looks like "daddy" is into pinning down people who voice out concerns about what the govt is doing or has been doing.Originally posted by Daddy!!:from your response, lets take it that you did not and gave up understanding directly from the ministers for policies which you think negatively of. in other words, based on mass media and the result of a few bad policies, you make a conclusion. you could not and did not verify before concluding.
because the govt make public policies, there are official statements or reasons to support them, just like in private sector. normally there are other factors at work which would not be discussed openly. let me give you an example.
US invaded Iraq unilaterally with a few coalition countries against the wishes the majority of the united nations and security council. The official statements were weapons of mass desstruction and spreading democracy in middle east through Iraq. Do the rest of the world really believe in the official statements? are official statements always telling the whole truth?
likewise, when the ministers got a big pay rise, the reason might not convince everyone. the next question is, what then is the real truth? the real truth can be good, it can be bad too. it is up to our imaginations. I can easily imagine a few good reasons why they do it. you certainly imagined the bad ones. but you and myself are none the wiser. only when we make the extra effort to discover the real truth, it is back down to speculation.
Cool, you who have the ID "Daddy", take it easy, why be so hard on people who just merely voice out concerns. Everyone is entitled to our own views, so there is no way for you to stop people. Be reasonable. -
just don't see any good reason why this chap with the ID daddy created such a fuss on the response of people to the pay rise of the govt.Originally posted by soul_rage:Not true, and not correct in how you analyze the pay rise
First of all, its not about good or bad reasons. Its JUSTIFIABLE reasons.
In the eyes of the public, they did not justify their reasons well because the money used is TAXPAYERS' money.
Yes Taxpayers' money! MY money. Your money.
If you go shopping for a sofa, you would ensure that the sofa is worth that price before deciding on paying for it. The salesperson would have to convince you on whether the sofa is worth its price
Its just that simple. They are not convincing on why they deserve the pay hike -
You just put the gun to your head and shot yourself.Originally posted by Daddy!!:from your response, lets take it that you did not and gave up understanding directly from the ministers for policies which you think negatively of. in other words, based on mass media and the result of a few bad policies, you make a conclusion. you could not and did not verify before concluding.
You are also speculating he has given up understanding, when you don't even know him.
So aren't you committing what you are accusing others of? -
He sounds like anti people who voice out concerns about the govt. Let's just continue to watch what is he up to.Originally posted by soul_rage:You just put the gun to your head and shot yourself.
You are also speculating he has given up understanding, when you don't even know him.
So aren't you committing what you are accusing others of? -
Did USA justify their invasion of iraq convincingly?Originally posted by soul_rage:Not true, and not correct in how you analyze the pay rise
First of all, its not about good or bad reasons. Its JUSTIFIABLE reasons.
In the eyes of the public, they did not justify their reasons well because the money used is TAXPAYERS' money.
Yes Taxpayers' money! MY money. Your money.
If you go shopping for a sofa, you would ensure that the sofa is worth that price before deciding on paying for it. The salesperson would have to convince you on whether the sofa is worth its price
Its just that simple. They are not convincing on why they deserve the pay hike
the american citizens themselves are unhappy but the us govt insisted to fight on. "In the eyes of the american public, they did not justify their reasons well because the money used is TAXPAYERS' money. "
what you wrote about that happen in singapore already happened in usa long ago.
are the american govt ignorant? i bet my last cent on it that they are a brilliant bunch of people deserving our respect.
then why is the usa govt not providing the real truth or real reasons over the iraq war to their people? there are other factors which could not be discussed openly in public by public figures.
same thing happens in every countries. and it happen in singapore too.
the onus is on you and me to dig up the truth. otherwise, we simply dont know.