What if Singapore was still under the British rule?
-
God loves the British or the American more?... who know??Originally posted by CoolMyth:I think most Singaporeans dun mind singing "God save the Queen" as the national anthem.
-
I wouldn't mind a British Passport. Traveling to the US and the EU is so much simpler.
-
JBJ President instead of Nathan
-
Why? Your singapore passport no pakai izzit??Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:I wouldn't mind a British Passport. Traveling to the US and the EU is so much simpler. -
Actually this would be a more interesting topic to discuss but I am still waiting for someone to start a thread like "Could Singapore and Malaysia merge again to become a World Superpower?"Originally posted by ispyyy:lol...
From history, u should ask what if Singapore was still under Malaysia rule??? -
If HK is the example, the Brits only grant British passport to the elites. The rest will travel with the passport of the State of Singapore.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:I wouldn't mind a British Passport. Traveling to the US and the EU is so much simpler. -
I don't mind. Who cares about stupid people like you? You mean this country isn't segregated even under the PAP?Originally posted by sgdiehard:If HK is the example, the Brits only grant British passport to the elites. The rest will travel with the passport of the State of Singapore. -
not a question of country but the color of the skin
I better not go there.......can hear the fire engine coming oreddy -
hmm...I don't need your care in the first place.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:I don't mind. Who cares about stupid people like you? You mean this country isn't segregated even under the PAP?
You don't mind? the Brits mind! Brits elite cannot be lower than the PAP elites. If you can't be PAP elite, you think you can be Brits elite? Dream on.... -
Hahahahahahaha.Originally posted by sgdiehard:hmm...I don't need your care in the first place.
You don't mind? the Brits mind! Brits elite cannot be lower than the PAP elites. If you can't be PAP elite, you think you can be Brits elite? Dream on....
Don't worry, American Physics degrees are quite valued in the UK -
What if....
....I was never born, and then I would not be writing this entry...
Whoah......!
"What ifs..." are deep..........
Ommmmmmmm...................... -
no quarrel, you can have your British Passport even now.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Hahahahahahaha.
Don't worry, American Physics degrees are quite valued in the UK -
After a few carbombs, assinations, race riots, and suicide bombings, the British will gladly hand Singapore back to Malaysia, as part of global restructuring of their empire after the Hong Kong hand over.
Life will be exciting until then. After that, we will be 4th class citizens in Malaysia. Singaporeans will be working as labourers in the Malay peninsular. -
even if asean merge also cannot become super powerOriginally posted by Short Ninja:Actually this would be a more interesting topic to discuss but I am still waiting for someone to start a thread like "Could Singapore and Malaysia merge again to become a World Superpower?" -
The racial riots here in the 60s would be more than what they wanted to handle, they would have just handed us over to Malaysia when they pulled out from the east of suez canel. That would be in 1971. If that happened.....hmm...may be my parents would have migrated to australia liao.Originally posted by mancha:After a few carbombs, assinations, race riots, and suicide bombings, the British will gladly hand Singapore back to Malaysia, as part of global restructuring of their empire after the Hong Kong hand over.
Life will be exciting until then. After that, we will be 4th class citizens in Malaysia. Singaporeans will be working as labourers in the Malay peninsular. -
I don't really care. If British rule could give me high paying jobs like what they have in HK, no NS like HK then I take British rule anytime.
What patriotism and national identity is all crap to me.
Show me the money.... -
Give a man a gun, and he will one day shoot himself... -
Originally posted by maurizio13:
My compliments for your very mature posts and analysis with substantial supporting information to back-up your position.
If Singapore was still under British rule, Singapore will have never been a state under Malaysia. So your scenario is not valid.
The 1955 election was the first lively political contest in Singapore's history. Automatic registration expanded the register of voters from 75,000 to over 300,000, and for the first time, it included large numbers of Chinese, who had manifested political apathy in previous elections. The Labor Front won 10 seats. The Peoples Action Party (PAP), which fielded four candidates, won three seats. David Marshall became Singapore's first Chief Minister on 6 April 1955, with a coalition government made up of his own Labor Front, the United Malays National Organization and the Malayan Chinese Association .
Marshall resigned on 6 June 1956, after the breakdown of constitutional talks in London on attaining full internal self government. Lim Yew Hock, Marshall's deputy and minister for Labor became the Chief Minister. The March 1957 constitutional mission to London led by Lim Yew Hock was successful in negotiating the main terms of a new Singapore Constitution. On 28 May 1958, the Constitutional Agreement was signed in London.
Self-government was attained in 1959. In May that year Singapore's first general election was held to choose 51 representatives to the first fully elected Legislative Assembly. The PAP won 43 seats, gleaning 53.4 percent of the total votes. On June 3, the new Constitution confirming Singapore as a self-governing state was brought into force by the proclamation of the Governor, Sir William Goode, who became the first Yang di-Pertuan Negara (Head of State). The first Government of the State of Singapore was sworn in on June 5, with Lee Kuan Yew as Singapore's first Prime Minister.
The PAP had come to power in a united front with the communists to fight British colonialism. The communists controlled many mass organizations, especially of workers and students. It was an uneasy alliance between the PAP moderates and the pro communists, with each side trying to use the other for its own ultimate objective--in the case of the moderates, to obtain full independence for Singapore as part of a non-communist Malaya; in the case of the communists, to work towards a communist take-over.
The tension between the two factions worsened from 1960 and led to an open split in l961, with the pro-communists subsequently forming a new political party, the Barisan Sosialis. The other main players in this drama were the Malayans, who, in 1961, agreed to Singapore's merger with Malaya as part of a larger federation. This was also to include British territories in Borneo, with the British controlling the foreign affairs, defense and internal security of Singapore.
On the point above concerning the ''coalition of the PAP in a united front with communists'' - it is common view and opinion of the British Colonial Office that anyone engaged in Worker's Rights, Union Activism, Student Agitation are all labelled as 'Communists'.
It was during a period when 'Socialism' was portrayed as synonymous with 'Communism', as it was 'common' for the 'Communists' to have taken serious interests in the welfare of the common people - 'the Proletariat' in its 'perceived Class struggle'.
Is it not surprising that with growing social awareness and activism during the 1960s, university student agitation in the USA, Europe and even in UK is no longer associated with 'Communism'; and even more so today in the 21st Century - with the collapse of Communism that resulted in the death of a convenient ''Whipping Boy'' for the 'Autocrats' ?
''Unionism'' has loss its synonymous link with 'Communism', and ''Socialism'' for the welfare of the common people has been derided as ''Welfarism'' that weakens the human energy to work for itself, and the Communist inspired term ''Proletariat' is no longer politically fashionable.
With the present day opening of the Colonial Records Office in London, which maintained all records in secrecy for over forty years, this event allow us a look back in time to the period of early Political History of Singapore.
The question that must be asked is how valid are the views that ''communism and communist activities'' is strife in Singapore, and that the PAP had made a pact with ''the devils'' (those supposedly ''Communists'') ?
From the Colonial archives, it has been revealed that the British Special Branch had investigated LKY - as a young 25 year old activist trained in Law, and representing the Trade Unions - and found him ''not'' a Communist.
The similar archives now has also revealed that Lim Chin Siong has no Communist links too - and was even introduced by LKY to Chief Minister David Marshall as the 'Future Prime Minister of Singapore'' for the supposed reknown 'oratory skills in public' and 'the mass grass root support' that Lim Chin Siong has.
Yet, Lim Chin Siong was incarcerated by LKY for being a Communist, as Chia Thye Poh was also incarcerated for 32 years, while Lim Chin Siong had a mental breakdown and decided to exile himself in UK - without signing any papers admitting to be a Communist (as was a condition imposed on Chia Thye Poh, who refused to sign any forced admission till this day).
Were there so many Communists in Singapore's early political history, or was there a similar ''McCarthy Witch Hunt'' similar to that in the USA during the same 1950s period, and which trifled on the Individual Rights and damaging reputations ?
The Republican Joseph McCarthy used his infamous ''Witch Hunt Strategy'' against his political Democrat opponents, whom he viewed as liberals and easily labelled as 'Communist' - a strategy not unfamiliar in the politics of Singapore.
The ''checks and balance'' and magnanimity of the People and Political System of the US allowed the truth to surface and acknowledged those wrongly accused in the ''McCarthy Witch Hunt''.
Could we see a similar Singapore apology given to those who have been wrongly accused - from those whose power remained unchecked for the last 52 years ?
This is unlikely to happen, as the entire credibility structure will start to loosen, and in any case there is no political pressure to do so, as unlike the US Citizens - Singaporeans have no political voice, and are less magnanimous in our political culture as purposefully nurtured by those in Power.
Singapore - a gracious society ?
It probably could happen under British Rule and nuture. -
That's a silly argument, really. Is it really that hard to choose between colonialism and fascism?Originally posted by Meat Pao:Singapore will be worse off.....
Very simple....because the people who run and manage it, will be thinking of their own interests, ie the British will be thinking about their interests. First and foremost, above all, at the end of the day, they will put their own interests first, the interests of London. Everything will be put under that priority.
Hong Kong.....only when during 1990s, when Britain realized they were finally going to handover it to China, did they start to allow democracy. They were very clever, before handing Hong Kong to China, spring democracy around, knowing full well that China is having socialist system. Did they bother to 'grant' democracy to the people of Hong Kong previously, in 70s, 80s?
Hong Kong residents can have some kind of special passport, but cannot live and reside in Britain. What does this mean? Equality?
There is this kind of view around ....not just in Singapore but in many countries.....that Britain is somehow a benevolent colonialist......I think this view is a little bit naive.....yes they are quite good in management, they establish rule of law, and the treatment of the colonized people is less harsh than other colonialist nations.........but at the end of the day, they are still thinking of their own selfish interest, and they are still 'colonialist', and to think otherwise is naive.
So I think.....yes....definitely Singapore is better off as an independent.
Meat Pao.
So I guess it must be better for you to be the wife whose husband sleeps around, rather than the mistress who - despite not having an official and legitimate relationship in the eye of the law - obviously gets the better cut of the deal in a pragmatic sense?
In your misguided attempt to belittle the BNO (British Nationals Overseas) passport, you may want to note that the passport qualifies its holders to the same rights when travelling as those passports issued to British citizens. In other words, if you were commuting to an EU member country with a BNO passport, you're entitled to cut the queues by joining the "EU Passport" queues just like someone holding a British passport would.
For the record, you may also wish to note that the BNO was offered to all British subjects at the time of decolonization (with the exception of Hong Kong, which I will mention later) - although in the case of some countries upon gaining independence, they forbid its citizens to retain the BNO if they wish to adopt the citizenship of the newly-gained sovereign state. That said, in such instances, these citizens of the newly-formed sovereign states have exercised their right and made a conscious choice to opt to stay on in their newly independent homelands rather than emigrating to Britain. How then can the British be guilty of denying its subjects the right to live and reside in Britain?
As a matter of fact, your argument that British subjects "cannot live and reside in Britain" would not hold true for residents of Commonwealth territories gaining self-government/independence prior to 1962 when the Commonwealth Immigrants Act was first passed. In Singapore's case, at least, you would have been "free to live and reside in Britain" indefinitely had you taken up the option to do so as Singapore gained self-government prior to the Commonwealth Immigrants Act ( in 1962 and its amended version in 1968 ) and the Immigration Act of 1971 being enacted, which toughened British immigration laws.
The abovementioned does not apply to Hong Kong residents because HK is unique in the sense that their residents, even after the 1997 handover to PRC, would not acquire a citizenship of any sort as China operates on its "1 country, 2 systems principle". In that sense, HK residents are unlike other British subjects for there isn't a choice of a citizenship to speak of. To this end, the British enacted the Hong Kong Act (1985) which outlines the principle of how its residents will be regarded as far as the British are concerned when 1st July 1997 comes.
More importantly, even looking beyond the fact that colonialism would still offer more viable options than fascism would, it's easy to forget former British colonies are actually, by and large, much better off than subjects of other colonial powers. It's not exactly a coincidence that the most prosperous colonies in Africa, Asia and Oceania are actually British colonies, is it? If you need any further reference, just compare Hong Kong with Macau. -
ai yo yo! the current generation of british has lost so so so much wealth and power which their forefathers passed to them. wah, they lost so so so much that they are led by the nose by the americans. uk was once a master, USA a colony. Wah, now US is master, UK a ... hmm ... a dog of the US? not too far into the future, there is no british pound liao, only euros in uk. hee hee, uk is already a dog of usa and germany. if singapore is still ruled by uk, we are only a dog's puppy. what is the big deal man.Originally posted by walesa:That's a silly argument, really. Is it really that hard to choose between colonialism and fascism?
So I guess it must be better for you to be the wife whose husband sleeps around, rather than the mistress who - despite not having an official and legitimate relationship in the eye of the law - obviously gets the better cut of the deal in a pragmatic sense?
In your misguided attempt to belittle the BNO (British Nationals Overseas) passport, you may want to note that the passport qualifies its holders to the same rights when travelling as those passports issued to British citizens. In other words, if you were commuting to an EU member country with a BNO passport, you're entitled to cut the queues by joining the "EU Passport" queues just like someone holding a British passport would.
For the record, you may also wish to note that the BNO was offered to all British subjects at the time of decolonization (with the exception of Hong Kong, which I will mention later) - although in the case of some countries upon gaining independence, they forbid its citizens to retain the BNO if they wish to adopt the citizenship of the newly-gained sovereign state. That said, in such instances, these citizens of the newly-formed sovereign states have exercised their right and made a conscious choice to opt to stay on in their newly independent homelands rather than emigrating to Britain. How then can the British be guilty of denying its subjects the right to live and reside in Britain?
As a matter of fact, your argument that British subjects "cannot live and reside in Britain" would not hold true for residents of Commonwealth territories gaining self-government/independence prior to 1962 when the Commonwealth Immigrants Act was first passed. In Singapore's case, at least, you would have been "free to live and reside in Britain" indefinitely had you taken up the option to do so as Singapore gained self-government prior to the Commonwealth Immigrants Act ( in 1962 and its amended version in 1968 ) and the Immigration Act of 1971 being enacted, which toughened British immigration laws.
The abovementioned does not apply to Hong Kong residents because HK is unique in the sense that their residents, even after the 1997 handover to PRC, would not acquire a citizenship of any sort as China operates on its "1 country, 2 systems principle". In that sense, HK residents are unlike other British subjects for there isn't a choice of a citizenship to speak of. To this end, the British enacted the Hong Kong Act (1985) which outlines the principle of how its residents will be regarded as far as the British are concerned when 1st July 1997 comes.
More importantly, even looking beyond the fact that colonialism would still offer more viable options than fascism would, it's easy to forget former British colonies are actually, by and large, much better off than subjects of other colonial powers. It's not exactly a coincidence that the most prosperous colonies in Africa, Asia and Oceania are actually British colonies, is it? If you need any further reference, just compare Hong Kong with Macau.
oh yes yes yes!! the current generation of singaporeans took nothing and built up a nation by working very hard. while uk was/is declining, singapore was/is progressing. what is the big deal of uk? -
Sure you know what you're barking about? You'd probably cease to exist before one of the world's strongest currencies (if not the strongest) ceases to exist...Originally posted by Daddy!!:ai yo yo! the current generation of british has lost so so so much wealth and power which their forefathers passed to them. wah, they lost so so so much that they are led by the nose by the americans. uk was once a master, USA a colony. Wah, now US is master, UK a ... hmm ... a dog of the US? not too far into the future, there is no british pound liao, only euros in uk. hee hee, uk is already a dog of usa and germany. if singapore is still ruled by uk, we are only a dog's puppy. what is the big deal man.
oh yes yes yes!! the current generation of singaporeans took nothing and built up a nation by working very hard. while uk was/is declining, singapore was/is progressing. what is the big deal of uk? -
The lost of reserves from the British treasury isn't a result of frivolous spending, it's because the British had to pay up all it's World War II debts to USA. They just finished paying up not too long ago.Originally posted by Daddy!!:ai yo yo! the current generation of british has lost so so so much wealth and power which their forefathers passed to them. wah, they lost so so so much that they are led by the nose by the americans. uk was once a master, USA a colony. Wah, now US is master, UK a ... hmm ... a dog of the US? not too far into the future, there is no british pound liao, only euros in uk. hee hee, uk is already a dog of usa and germany. if singapore is still ruled by uk, we are only a dog's puppy. what is the big deal man.
oh yes yes yes!! the current generation of singaporeans took nothing and built up a nation by working very hard. while uk was/is declining, singapore was/is progressing. what is the big deal of uk?
World Briefing | Europe: Britain: World War II Debt To Be Paid Off
By ALAN COWELL
Published: December 30, 2006
Britain will finally pay off the last installments of World War II-era debt to the United States and Canada before the end of the year. The debt has been repaid in a total of 50 installments since 1950. According to the British Treasury, the amount repaid to the United States is $7.8 billion while $2 billion has been repaid to Canada. With interest at 2 percent, the amounts are nearly double the amounts lent in 1945 and 1946, the BBC said. The loans helped Britain's war effort with purchases of weapons, oil, food and equipment, and were also used to finance postwar reconstruction. ALAN COWELL
The war time economy of Europe and Britain was directed to the production of military goods. Therefore much of the shortfall in economic goods has to be outsourced from USA and South America. -
Originally posted by maurizio13:
the way the americans "rule" the world is better than the feudalistic system of the UK prior to the great wars. under americans' rule today, nearly everyone is given a fair chance to succeed. that was how people like li ka shing made it. HK is today in fact very american rather than british. the success of HK is very much due to HK people, not british. remember the Peak at central hk? it was exclusive only to the colonial masters. li ka shing would have no chance.
The lost of reserves from the British treasury isn't a result of frivolous spending, it's because the British had to pay up all it's World War II debts to USA. They just finished paying up not too long ago.
[b]World Briefing | Europe: Britain: World War II Debt To Be Paid Off
By ALAN COWELL
Published: December 30, 2006
Britain will finally pay off the last installments of World War II-era debt to the United States and Canada before the end of the year. The debt has been repaid in a total of 50 installments since 1950. According to the British Treasury, the amount repaid to the United States is $7.8 billion while $2 billion has been repaid to Canada. With interest at 2 percent, the amounts are nearly double the amounts lent in 1945 and 1946, the BBC said. The loans helped Britain's war effort with purchases of weapons, oil, food and equipment, and were also used to finance postwar reconstruction. ALAN COWELL
The war time economy of Europe and Britain was directed to the production of military goods. Therefore much of the shortfall in economic goods has to be outsourced from USA and South America.[/b] -
Are you disconnected from reality?Originally posted by Daddy!!:the way the americans "rule" the world is better than the feudalistic system of the UK prior to the great wars. under americans' rule today, nearly everyone is given a fair chance to succeed. that was how people like li ka shing made it. HK is today in fact very american rather than british. the success of HK is very much due to HK people, not british. remember the Peak at central hk? it was exclusive only to the colonial masters. li ka shing would have no chance.
If the British system stifles its colonial subjects, would you like to explain how did Li Ka Shing make it big? Or are you suggesting Li Ka Shing built up his wealth overnight following Hong Kong's handover to China? -
can't you see, usa rules the world since end of world war 2, and that include UK and HK. if there was no ww2, the colonial masters stayed and li ka shing would have no chance. dude.Originally posted by walesa:Are you disconnected from reality?
If the British system stifles its colonial subjects, would you like to explain how did Li Ka Shing make it big? Or are you suggesting Li Ka Shing built up his wealth overnight following Hong Kong's handover to China?
ah, was irish part of britain? since ireland quitted uk and joined the euro zone, it progressed at a tremendous rate. ireland has really left uk BEHIND and is enjoying the fruits of its decision now. It could be conveniently said that the british system was a drag on ireland.