PM's son charged & reprimaned
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Originally posted by anonymouscoward:
so what is the appropriate punishment for being childish?
"...broadcasting his letter of complaint to many other servicemen - almost all of whom were neither directly under his command, nor in an official capacity where they could deal with the matters contained in his letter of complaint..."
Breaking the chain of command is already insubordination but the crux of the issue is that he [b]broadcast his complaints to unrelated personnel. Please understand the issue before you talk.
What Li did was childish.[/b]
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A telling off would be suffice, just as what they have done. There are many ways to look at his intentions, just that many of us elected to see it through the most negative light.
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
ponders
courtesy of this forumer
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What Quincey said is true. It depends largely on the contents of the email and the tone it is written. For being childish, a reprimand should be enoughOriginally posted by Quincey:A telling off would be suffice, just as what they have done. There are many ways to look at his intentions, just that many of us elected to see it through the most negative light.
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Before it was reported in the media, the saf already consulted his dad what to do lar. Everyday also got people break more serious rules, get caught, also don't make it to the news? Why must be PM's son do a little small small thing also whole singapore must know leh? har? har? har?
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They have no chioce because it was splashed all over internet forums and blogs.Originally posted by ditzy:Why must be PM's son do a little small small thing also whole singapore must know leh? har? har? har?
http://www.reuters.com/article/internetNews/idUSSP1129520070713
Li's letter -- totaling 2,000 words according to the Today newspaper -- has been posted online by several Singapore blogs, which have emerged as an alternative source of information for the city-state's Internet-savvy population, over pro-government newspapers. -
Originally posted by pearlie27:
our media has a choice. they can choose to not report it...
[b]
They have no chioce because it was splashed all over internet forums and blogs.
b]
the report can be seen in many perspectives... you could say it wants to objectively try to iron out the issue in the national press... you could say the press wants to show how just MINDEF is... you could say the press wants a bit of the action (given the nature of the offence, and the social status of the personnel involved)... or you could say the press is trying to wayang...
wadever the case is, the press does not need to publish it... but it chose to. -
Note the last line, " ....has received a Public Service Commission scholarship to study economics at the MIT, USA."
I don't know how much PSC is paying for this scholarship. If any, why don't PSC use the money to fund a student from a poor family. I am sure PM Lee can well afford to pay for his son's education. -
Although I don't really like PaPa Lee or GrandPa Lee, especially when everything raise soon after election.
I don't think this Lee is trying to get any special treatment, otherwise, he doesn't even need to write the email but just ask his dad and grandPa to make a call to the Chief of Defense or even the Minister of Defense.
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Im not sure if it the same winston choo but i think he now in singapore red cross society right ??? i remember he lead my team to set up 1st aid tentage during national camp.Originally posted by mancha:Don't look down on Signals.
To be a signals officer you need good knowledge of how the entire defence force, land sea and air, is organised, and their communications needs, and their command and control structure.
Our first general, Winston Choo was a Signals officer
He what rank i 4get liao , but is one of the highest i know , anyway same person ? -
choo was the only general to have seen some battle, in vietnam...he was the non-scholar chief who held the post longest...now cdf is like playing musical chairs........he's now in red cross among other shake leg appointments....saw him once when he visited the camp i was slaving in...portly man with a love for happy hour....lol.....Originally posted by Unidentified:Im not sure if it the same winston choo but i think he now in singapore red cross society right ??? i remember he lead my team to set up 1st aid tentage during national camp.
He what rank i 4get liao , but is one of the highest i know , anyway same person ? -
My Opinion in this case is not to take it too lightly. Or we further loose our rights.
For several reason:
SAF is a military instituion and like any military institution it needs to have discipline. Respect the chain of command. Especially the senior ranking official where they held power command over civilian soldier. SAF report to civilian government and its defend consitution not PAP or political affliation.
This case by a junior member of the officier who happen to come from a Public figure politician cannot be ignore because it affected the morality of an independent military institution that are not baise to any political affliation especially if that is a PM son. or President's son.
The case of slack officer in SAF, that should be a Mindef internal shake up officer slack decision.
The case of E-mail is clearly out of line having a other rank to send e-mail is one thing ignorance. Haven an educated officer to send out E-mail is not to respect the chain of command and how do you expect this person to leads in his own section. Imature decision get people kills on the line.
If the punishment was too lightly what will the CO do whenever he made a decision, afraid if some political son's official to report back to Daddy. We are not a communist regime. Commands cannot always look at the back to see what will happen to them. How to lead mens and fight?
since he does not respect the chain of command than basically is to take out his officer back to other rank. he needs to learn to respect the chain of command.
40 years of SAF as military institution doesn't come easy. It is sweat n hard work of past generation. Human lives lost. We do not just Walk away for some young officer to take away basic respect for Command. Or else how does SAF command respect for generation down? How does young officer command respect to his fellow man. How do we have the "Will" to defend Singapore.
SAF is a fighting force not political tools, MY/INDO is looking. How do we carry out our power projection if we cannot be decisive in discipline our man. Mindef need to shake up but Punishment for this public figure affliated young officer is necessary. -
how to cover when he forwarded the email to so many people. Just take it as a good chance to "show" that he's not given any special treatment lor.Originally posted by browniebaobao:im surprised this is not being covered up.
But then reprimanded only? -
Hello! You know whose son or not? His grandfather's army leh.Originally posted by UandMe:how to cover when he forwarded the email to so many people. Just take it as a good chance to "show" that he's not given any special treatment lor.
But then reprimanded only? -
The action by PM's Lee son simply shows the arrogance that permeate down the Family Tree into the little boy's head.
His action simply reveals his own petty minded value system without the broader vision of the good to his Unit and that of the SAF.
Where is the sense of 'Esprit de Corp' ?
Comradeship ? Brothers-in-Arm ?
All for ONE, and ONE for ALL ?
Is the SAF 'Esprit de Corp' now torn to shreds with the ability of a 'Super-White Stud' getting the better of the Superior Commanders, and pulling a thicker rope over the peers in the Rank and File ?
The 2Lt is no more then a 'Young Upstart KID' - with total lack of respect nor tolerance towards anyone lesser than his own superior lineage.
Such a cynical attitude towards anyone else's authority smack of sheer arrogance - as can be seen in his Grandpa's intolerance towards anyone who dare obstruct his value judgement.
In more mature Army that has established traditions and history, such action from a Junior Grade Officer is termed simply as INSUBORDINATION'.
Such behaviour is no better than an arrogant Kim Jong Il giving his Superiors a hard time, when his father sent him to the North Korean Army in preparation for the Future.
When this 'Super-Stud' could not get the Commander to correct the supposed errors, the 'Super-Stud' took matters into his own hands by writing to the Minister of Defense - who afterall is his Father's Minister.
How many 2Lt will dare to stand up to his Superior Commander and tell him to mend his ways - OR Else ?
How many 2Lt will dare to write to the Minister of Defense and make such a grand expose of the seemingly disciplinary errors of his Unit and his Fellow Officers ?
For MINDEF to take the word of the 2Lt and proceed to investigate the complaints, and was able to confirm the accuracy of the complaint, surely will indicate a failure in the regular review of the Unit and the manner in which Efficiency and Performance are judged.
The reprimands and disciplinary actions as a consequence of the investigation to the 'irregular' complaints made, should rightfully bring more questions of concerns then putting a stop to the debate with the findings made.
It brings into question the Leadership Quality in the Officer Corp, when a young-upstart 2Lt can work against Fellow Officers, and bring an institution of Senior Leadership into question.
It brings into question - if the Competition for the Best SAF Unit is nothing more then a 'sham' ?
One will need to ask - how many ''off-springs'' will the Lee Dynasty need to provide the ground level feedback to the Ivory Tower ?
When LKY was PM, from an analogy which he gave, he seem to have depended on his daughter feedback to implement the Speak Mandarin campaign. He had claimed that his daughter had trouble communicating with a dialect speaking elderly patient, while a non-Chinese nurse was of no help in clearing the matter, and another Chinese nurse from a different dialect group could not resolve the desparation that his daughter faced.
LKY declared that since his daughter could not cope with the situation, it was only logical that everyone should learn Mandarin, so as to facilitate cross dialect communication amongst the Chinese.
The consequence of LKY's anecdote of his daughter's difficulties was a raised tempo to teach Mandarin as the natural mother tongue to all Chinese, and dialects were to be eradicated.
At least two generations of Chinese had to endure the forced learning of a seemingly alien mother-tongue, in which some of Singapore's best had to seek foreign tertiary education when Singapore university admission required a good pass from Chinese whose mother-tongue can only be Mandarin.
What will the future hold for the SAF ?
Can only the First Family move the rocks amidst the shifting sands, while ordinary Singaporeans are only allowed to more the granules under the rocks ? -
I gotta say I am impressed, both by the system and by the PM's son.
It seems the system worked, at least in this case.
Yes, the PM's son got a slap on the wrist, but he also made a name for himself as a hotheaded idealist who's hell bent going after violators of any rules, however trivial. He looks like a future PM to me. LOL -
Agree x2. Let's hope he doesn't get discouraged by all the mindless troublemakers baying for blood just because he's the PM's son. Seriously why do these people complain so much when someone does something to right the system for once? A bunch of silly geese if you ask me...Originally posted by YaoRockets:I gotta say I am impressed, both by the system and by the PM's son.
It seems the system worked, at least in this case.
Yes, the PM's son got a slap on the wrist, but he also made a name for himself as a hotheaded idealist who's hell bent going after violators of any rules, however trivial. He looks like a future PM to me. LOL -
The young 'White Stud' was merely reprimanded for obvious insubordination by breaking established 'proper channels' rules of the SAF, which is made known to every Rank and File from Day ONE in the SAF.
In more established Armies, Officers have been charged for questioning a point of Principle that is according to the Law, compared to this 'White Stud' was merely got off with a reprimand that is no more then a 'slap on the wrist'.
Army officer charged with insubordination
By Ben Dobbin
The Associated Press
ROCHESTER, N.Y. — Capt. Steve McAlpin, a longtime Army reservist, displays a faded photograph of himself at age 5, decked out in military garb, complete with plastic helmet and toy machine gun.
Serving the United States is what "I've been wanting to do for my entire life," McAlpin, 44, said yesterday, his voice trembling with emotion.
This week, McAlpin, who spent most of last year deployed in Afghanistan, learned he is facing insubordination charges that could abruptly end his 25-year military career.
His breach of discipline: questioning the legality of a waiver his battalion was asked to sign that would put his unit back in a combat zone after just 11 months at home. Under federal law, he pointed out, troops are allowed a 12-month "stabilization period."
McAlpin was notified in a memorandum Wednesday that he was being removed from the 401st Civil Affairs Battalion's battle roster. He said he could face other punishment, including a court martial and losing rank.
Members of the 401st will be deployed for duty overseas Wednesday. The commander, Lt. Col. Phillip Carey, charges in his memo that McAlpin had a "negative attitude" and was being "insubordinate towards the leadership" of the 401st.
"We signed up to fight our nation's enemies and we are fully prepared to do that," McAlpin said. "But if they're going to usurp the laws of this country at the expense of our most precious asset, our soldiers, then I will not stand for that, not for a minute."
About a dozen other officers refused to sign the waiver, as well as four enlisted soldiers called to redeploy, McAlpin said.
"Soldiers are proud to serve any time, anywhere. I'd go tomorrow," McAlpin said from his Victor, N.Y., home. "But I have four soldiers that don't want to go."
The memorandum commands McAlpin to clear up his affairs at the unit by Monday, when it bans him from battalion grounds. It also transfers him to the Individual Ready Reserves, whose soldiers can be called up in the event of a national emergency.
Instead of signing the reprimand document, McAlpin attached a note of protest, stating his performance evaluations have been excellent and that his record shows "no pattern of incompetence." He also plans to meet with a military attorney.
McAlpin served in Bosnia in 1996. Last year in Afghanistan, he was a liaison to local warlords, coordinated humanitarian-relief supplies and organized an English-language teaching program.
"I'm looking at something I love more than just about anything — my service to the Army and my fellow soldiers — and they're trying to stab me in the back," McAlpin said.
In Iraq and Afghanistan, he said, "we need every soldier we can muster," but he said the military should also "honor soldiers that have gone already" by giving them "a break from the hazards of combat."
A spokesman for the 401st, Capt. Brian Earley, said McAlpin's questioning of the waiver was only one reason he was being disciplined. Individual members of the 401st are allowed to refuse to sign the waiver, but Earley said McAlpin was "butting in" for other soldiers.
"People who were on the mission, who wanted to go, he was questioning their orders," Earley said. "He was pursuing a non-issue."
Earley said the military was also taking action because of "an accumulation of things," including difficulties in one of his previous missions to Afghanistan. He declined to elaborate.
"There's a lot of soldiers we're not sending because they have one issue or another," Earley said. "It's important that we put together a solid team. Not all soldiers are ready, even though they think they are, to deploy." -
Atobe, I would look at this from a long-term strategic angle.
Don't bay for his blood just because he's LHL's son. -
it will be political, look at the number of discussion thread. Nobody is out to draw blood of him but the reason being we need to voice our concern and right.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Atobe, I would look at this from a long-term strategic angle.
Don't bay for his blood just because he's LHL's son.
I believe military discipline are not creative solution to move SAF ahead. Its mean to be an organization tool in the battlefield. -
i think only extra duties lah...
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wonder if he will dare to do this if he isn't the son of u know who..
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How could the system be seen to be working - when an upstart 'young stud' could upturn the 'apple cart' ?Originally posted by YaoRockets:I gotta say I am impressed, both by the system and by the PM's son.
It seems the system worked, at least in this case.
Yes, the PM's son got a slap on the wrist, but he also made a name for himself as a hotheaded idealist who's hell bent going after violators of any rules, however trivial. He looks like a future PM to me. LOL
If at all, the fact that the Ministry found the complains to have some ground, and proceeded to reprimand and prosecute the offenders, showed that serious flaws in the SAF Units that are out of view from the Upper Echelon of the Command Structure.
How many sons, grand-sons, and daughters or grand daughters, will the First Family need to keep the wheels of its creation creaking and not fall apart ?
Will this Government only make serious investigation when members of the First Family break the chain of Command ?
The fact that the system only responded on the complaint of this 'Super Stud' with a 'superior lineage' revealed that the methods employed to monitor and gauge performance of the SAF is merely occassional and superficial; and do not cut deep to reveal flaws and excesses, abuse and wastage - all of which can be cleverly covered by administrative measures.
Despite the efforts to develop a Third Generation SAF, it had to take a 'Super Stud Snitch' to spill the beans of a First Generation Human Behavior. -
There are some families who accepted the scholarship but rejected the money.Originally posted by thinkloud2004:Note the last line, " ....has received a Public Service Commission scholarship to study economics at the MIT, USA."
I don't know how much PSC is paying for this scholarship. If any, why don't PSC use the money to fund a student from a poor family. I am sure PM Lee can well afford to pay for his son's education.
They might have rejected the money, so it is unfair to claim that PSC is really paying for the education. -
Originally posted by anonymouscoward:
How come the mindef reply so funny?
"...broadcasting his letter of complaint to many other servicemen - almost all of whom were neither directly under his command, nor in an official capacity where they could deal with the matters contained in his letter of complaint..."
Breaking the chain of command is already insubordination but the crux of the issue is that he [b]broadcast his complaints to unrelated personnel. Please understand the issue before you talk.[/b]
"almost all of whom were neither directly under his command" - can this scenario happen? where got CO broadcast his letter of complaint about the brigade commander to his staff officers one?