PM's son charged & reprimaned
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No, I am just stating it as I see it.Originally posted by zix1:Cool down, cool down, why so uptight? Sigh, can tell from your message that how people react and respond really affect you! Sigh! Don't be harsh! Cool down, it is no good for your health to get so worked up! Take it easy, look at it positively, there are people who said kind words about the lee hsien loong's son. It is not possible to expect all to say the same. take it easy, don't blame the people.
I don't expect everyone to applaud 2LT Li for his actions but I think if you want to be critical for whatever reason, at least think through your position and be rational about it before you let it loose on the general populace. -
Originally posted by angelicting:
Who are you trying to kid? Hongyi is going to MIT not SAF DB. A career path has already been planned for him.
PM son, is also but a human too. And human do make mistakes. He had already got what he deserved. A reprimand in military terms and had a bad mark against his bright future. Shouldn't we just let him off with space to breath then? Instead of pressing the matter and magnifying it.
for you to decide.
His future is as bright as ever. He is a privileged son of the PM!
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Originally posted by wisefool83:
A reprimand is not a death sentence, nor is it a jail term, nor is a stain on one's career.
I beg to differ on this one, Atobe.
You are making it sound like Lee junior is the bad guy here. Is he? Essentially what he did was to write a complain letter that addresses an ill-culture within the military of leniency towards regulars and broadcast the letter. Was such a move based on personal interest?
Note that until the penning of the letter, no injustice whatsoever was done upon 2LTA Li. His superior, although irresponsible, did not in any way harm 2LTA Li personally. He could have just kept quiet and went on to MIT, nobody will need to know about this and there won't be any trouble at all. But he choosed to pen the letter, for what? Will he gain anything out of this? Hell No! He did not complain based on a personal grudge, but for the greater good of the organisation and the country.
If we would recall a few years back, the commando units were suffering from certain ill-culture within the military too and there was a large cover up and general acceptance to such cultures. It took a 3rd Sergent armourer to blow the whistle via similar methods, alerting the public and everyone! I personally knew this 3rd Sergent and he was never punished for blowing the whistle and hell I bet everyone here would be very angry if he was ever punished.
This is not a case of the so-called first family abusing their powers as you would like us all to believe. It is the case of a hot blooded 2LTA attempting to change things at a cost of his own and end up being blamed by the very people he hoped to help.
People. asked yourself, if 2LTA Li had been the LTA in the complain letter and a normal "peasant" as we like to call ourself, is the person who broadcast the letter, would your respones be the same? Would we not be complaining the SAF for punishing the whistle blower and "restricting the freedom of speech" and not having and "Official Information Act" and such?
And mind you a "reprimand" in military terms is not as light as some of us might thought. It is not just a scolding, it will be recorded and has an impact on future careers, it is a defined punishment and is above extra duties in the hierarchy of punishments.
People, let's not be bias and see him for who he is and not just who his father and grandfather is, and for goodness sake give him the credit of the whistle blower that he deserves!
The U.S. General Patton had more then a few reprimands in his military career and it did not stopped the recognition of his ability and qualities as a Military Leader. Despite all the many reprimands, he was trusted for his tenacity and single minded drive in achieving his goals, and was never doubted to hurt anyone's interests - especially that of the US Military.
Who can tell what was cooking in 2Lt Li's mind when he wrote what he experienced based on his own judgmental sense of duty and responsibility ?
2Lt Li may have exposed a seeming viper's pit of incompetent and malingering SAF officers, but do we know the full extent of the entire story from both sides ?
Did 2Lt overstepped his own office in the manner of his letter writings 'to all and sundry' ?
Was he drawing attention to the seeming problem that he had stumbled on, OR was he drawing attention to himself for being smart enough to have discovered the malpractise and for making it public ?
If we were to approve 2Lt Li's actions, we will have to persecute the entire SAF Chain of Command for the incompetency of the entire system that allowed such malingering and irresponsible officers to have existed in the SAF ?
If it is a culture, could it have been developed recently, or has it been a characteristic feature of the SAF that has been allowed to fester since the SAF was purposefully developed from 1967 on our sudden independence in 1965.
This 'scandalous expose' has put the spotlight onto the weakness of the SAF supervisory line of command during peace time. and one can only wonder how valid are the reviews and inspections in the Annual Competition for the title of the Best SAF Combat Units in the respective SAF specialist arms.
Is the SAF management system out-of-touch with the reality on the ground ?
Is the Minister of Defense from the Ruling Party similarly out-of-touch with events on the ground, and their measure of success and achievements based on the development of technology introduction into the SAF ?
If this is so, is this not a sad reflection of the fact that the Singapore Government is similarly in self-denial, and out-of-touch with the reality on the ground in the heartlands - in which the Citizens are suffering under the weight of the abuses the government had poured onto our Lives since the Election 2006 was drawn to a close ?
While some may find reasons to absolve 2Lt Li's actions - whether he is the PM's son or not - I find his actions to be totally impetuous and disrespectful of the SAF 'esprit de corp'.
The fact that he is PM's son makes his attitude and actions even more acutely in the lime light, and his handiwork a reflection of his own character.
How many Singaporeans will even have our father at the helm ?
How many Singaporean NSF has the opportunity of bringing such failures to the ears of his father who is a PM ?
Was his actions encouraged by his Parents ?
Did you read the contents in 2Lt Li's letter ? -
The reason and scope of action of your cadet is different from 2Lt Li's actions and background causes.Originally posted by sgdiehard:It is not a fact that SAF only responded because of this "Super Stud with superior lineage". During my time, a cadet, one batch before me also wrote directly to mindef to complain about the instructors, investigations were carried out. Not sure of the outcome but the young cadet proceeded on to pass out as an officer. His father has no special lineage of any kind, that I know for sure.
Often when I drinks with seniors to talk about army training, and all officers would talk about cadet/officers training. It become clear to me that it is not uncommon for young junior officers, or cadet trainees to make all kinds of complaints against their superiors, their units and the SAF, in many instances, the chain of command was broken. Today many of these officers remain very proud of what they did, exposing the flaws of the system, revealing abuses and bringing the guilty to justice, blah blah.....
is this the guts of the young and brave, or is this the arrogant and the naive? Definitely SAF's growth to what it is today does not come from such complaints.
I agree with the way SAF reacted, which is based on the validity of the complaint. All complaints got investigated, at least in my unit. If the complaint were right, after investigation, the complainant would only be reprimanded for breaking the chain of command. It would be a different story if the complaint were found to be completely groundless.....
The cadet's act of complaint is a result of abuses on his person, while 2Lt Li's action was caused by his own personal judgmental views of the seeming flaws which he had the temerity and impetuousness to upbraid the entire SAF chain of command.
The cadet had supposedly wrote only to MINDEF upper echelon, while 2Lt Li copied his views to supposedly a hundred others who had no direct bearing nor ability to resolve the flaws which he claimed.
Yes, SAF remains a place in which young Singaporeans are immersed into tough training regimes and nurtured into adulthood.
SAF remains a place where men come in and out every year, not all of them happy and willing, and there are bound to have people going out of line, but comradeship was also cultivated after few months together. In this present case, the officer who went AWOL must have thought that he were covered by the senior officers with whom he had Esprit de Corp, but obviously there was no Comradeship between him and the young stub. Espirit de Corp should never be used to cover up wrongdoings, and comradeship should be cultivated with all men, not just among the seniors.
Are we disputing the facts about the LTA who supposedly went AWOL, or are we judging on the impetuous arrogance of 2Lt Li letter writing expose ?
Do we know the full extent of the LTA AWOL activities, or the supposedly 'esprit de corp' connivance with his Superiors to cover his faults ?
Officers with the authority of Command Positions are given certain leeway and flexibility in judgement and decision, do we know - or does 2Lt Li know - enough of the background details that allowed the LTA seeming absence from his Post as Duty Officer ?
We certainly have alot of details to judge on 2Lt Li's acts of insubordination to the SAF system and MINDEF's guideline.
Since we are on this topic, how would you judge the following actions of a young Platoon Commander handling a young NSF - who was married in Kuala Lumpur before being enlisted, with his wife already near to full term in pregnancy and residing in Kuala Lumpur. When the wife delivered their first born in KL, he was struggling with Basic Training in Singapore - moody, withdrawn and a recluse. With the Lunar New Year only two weeks away, and the usual official two days holiday confirmed - these two day official holiday will hardly give the 'new born father' enough time to return to KL for family reunion and back to Singapore. The Platoon Commander and junior commanders planned for his earlier '4 days unofficial leave' with the caveat that he will be reported AWOL if any untoward accident were to fall on him due to his own carelessness. The entire Platoon ''arranged for his presence'' during roll call. On his return after the Lunar New Year Holidays, the man was a changed person, highly motivated for the support given to him by rank and file, he felt more responsible to his platoon mates for their part in enabling him to view his new born, having reunion with his parents, siblings and wife - even for that short period. For the entire duration of Basic Training, the 'esprit de corp' in the unit was unmatched.
Are we disputing the facts of the complaint, or the manner in which the complainant has brought disrepute to the entire SAF body ?
Do parents have anymore say in what our young people do today? If they do, even in the army, in work place, in our society, then the young men's behavior either glorify or put their parents to shame. If this is a family of high public profile, they get everything double.
Ultimately, is the complaint valid, is the behavior a fitting conduct of a soldier and an officer? I was glad the young cadet before me was not thrown out of course.
Is there a weak link in the checks and balances from MINDEF or the SAF HQ units on their subordinate units and commanders ?
How effective are the checks that could not bring out such discrepancies and dangerous practises of abandoning one's post while on Duty ?
If as parents - we are unable to influence our young, it will already show that we are no longer relevant in their lives, and they are able to take charge and become independent.
It is time for us - as parents - to give our young some slack, and we move on. -
The Letter from 2Lt Li - as posted by one blogger
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And from internet sources (for which the accuracy and completeness cannot really be determined):
From: 2LT Li Hongyi, _____ PC, _____
Sent: Thursday, 28 June 2007 9:36 AM
To: ___ ____ ____, Minister, MHQ; MG ______ ____, CDF, CDF Office; BG -___ ____ ____, COA,
COAOFF; COL _______, CSO, _______; zz All in ____, _________
Cc: zz All in ________, _____; zz ALL IN ____, _____; zz All in _____, _____; zz All in ______, ______
Subject: A complaint about the quality control of SAF officers
Dear Sirs and alI,
I am about to disrupt my national service to pursue further studies, and this will likely be my last email sent out for the next half a decade. Unlike the common "ORD letters" that you read, this letter unfortunately cannot be as cheerful. I am using this last opportunity to issue a letter of complaint against the quality control of officers in the SAF, more specifically against LTA X. During my time as his subordinate, LTA X was AWOL on at least 2 counts, attempted bribery, and lied to his subordinates and his superior officer. The battalion HQ has effectively given no punishment, and has not even made these infractions known to the rest of the battalion.
It seems that the matter had festered for some time and 2Lt Li only took action as his national service is being disrupted to enable him to pursue further studies.
Did 2Lt Li not bring this matter to his parents' attention and sought advice from them - knowing that his father is the PM, and the mother is head of Country's Investment Body ? If LHL, his younger brother and sister had discussed matters with LKY - as was revealed in LKY occassional willingness to allow some glimpses into family ties when there are political reasons to do so - are there no opportunities for LHL to know the workings his children ?
Let me first give you some background. I am the ____ ____ platoon commander from __________. In order to maintain operational readiness my duties are performed at _____ camp where our ops bus and servers are instead of at stagmont camp where our battalion is. The company is structured like so
OC
Centre Head
PC
The duties are therefore shared between the PC's, PS', and the Centre Head. LTA X is the centre head of the __________.
LTA X, was originally supposed to be on duty at _____ Camp as the duty commander for the _______ on the 20th and 22nd of April, a Friday and Sunday respectively. I was on duty on the 21st of April that Saturday, to minimize the changing over, I contacted him and asked if he would like to swap duties for the Saturday and Sunday. To this he agreed, and thus he was to be on duty on the 20th and 21st of April.
On the Friday however, LTA X called to inform me that he was busy during the day, and if I could cover for him until the evening. To this I agreed to do so. At about 1600 hours, I received a call from LTA X, informing me that he was on the way and that I could leave first, thought this would result in a time where there would be no duty commander in camp, he informed me that this had already be cleared with our OC. I therefore left camp.
On Sunday the 22nd of April I arrived back in camp to take over duty from LTA X. After he had left camp the men informed me that he had not arrived in camp on Friday at all, and that he only arrived in camp at 1800 hours on Saturday the 21st of April. On Saturday they had tried to contact him to ask his whereabouts, to which he told them that he was in fact in _____ in ______ camp getting some work done. The men contacted their counterparts in ______ camp to verify this, however no one in______ camp had seen LTA X. 1 further confirmed with the ______ duty personnel on Saturday that none of them had seen LTA X, this was also with confirmed with that day's BDO.
This news obviously was very distressing, I confronted LTA X regarding this information to which he confirmed that he only arrived in camp on Saturday at 1800 hours, but that he was at _____ for a while then left later to run some errands. Upon learning that I was to bring this information to our OC, LTA X then made an offer to do some of my duties for me to which I declined, his words were "You know if you need me to help you do some of your duties.."
On Wednesday after I had completed my personal investigation and confirmed that these events had indeed transpired, I informed our OC of these offences. Our OC spoke to LTA X regarding these issues, and let him off with a warning.
I would like the story to end here, however LTA RX was again on duty at ____ Camp for _________ on the following Saturday the 28th of April. At 0030 hours on Sunday the 29th of April I received a message from the duty personnel. The duty personnel of the platoon had just spotted LTA X's car, a white Mitsubishi lancer driving out of camp. I responded by telling them to check all the car parks and look for LTA X in camp. I received a call at about 0115 hours, the duty personnel informed me that they had checked the whole camp, and that LTA X's car was no where to be found. They also informed me that LTA X was no where to be found, not in any of the bunks nor any of the offices.
On Monday the 20th of April when I arrived back in ______ Camp for work, I confirmed with both the guard commander and the duty officer for Saturday the 28th of April, that at white Mitsubishi lancer had indeed driven out of camp at about 0030 hours on the 29th of April. This latest information was told to our OC.
When confronted by our OC, LTA X told him that indeed it was his car driving out of camp, he claimed however, that it was not him driving the car but that he had lent it to friend to drive out of camp. After checking with the person in question this was established to be untrue. Finally, LTA X admitted that he had lied, and that is was he who had left camp.
I have been informed that LTA X was to be given 10 extra duties, though this may be considered an extremely light punishment there is a further problem. To date, which is to say, 2 months from the incidents, none of the duties have been published in the battalion RO, in addition, LTA X has not served any of the extra duties he was supposedly awarded. In addition, this system of leniency is not consistent throughout the battalion, or even the company. The following was published in the RO on 1 1th of June 2007:
SXXXXXXXX CPL _____ ________ Non-compliance with a lawful duty or order. stoppage of Leave for 7 days
This was the punishment for CPL ______ for leaving camp an hour before he was supposed to. This was published less than a week after his infringement. If you were to calculate the time AWOL alone, LTA X was missing for a minimum of over 20 hours. This does not take into the account the fact that he repeated the crime less than a week after being reprimanded the first time. This does not take into account the lying to his superior officer. This does not take into account the fact that he is an officer, and thus should be even more liable than corporal.
Is there some bad blood between 2Lt Li and LTA X ?
From the tenacity that 2Lt Li pursued the matter of LTA X's absence from his post of Duty, should one have thought that 2Lt Li is running his own military ?
Is there a gross shortage of Officers in the SAF Signals Unit, when Officers has to be on Duty for 48 consequitive hours ? Even if the SAF do not subject itself to Singapore's Labor Laws, surely it should have the best practise in health care of its personnel ? What is the quality of the Duty Officer's condition being On Duty for such long hours ? -
continuation
Absence without leave
22. -(1) Every person subject to military law who is absent without leave from service in the Singapore Armed Forces or from the place where he is lawfully required for the time being to be shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction by a subordinate military court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or any less punishment authorised by this Act.
(2) It shall be a defence for any person charged under this section to prove that his absence was a result of circumstances over which he had no control.
this is where the report ends and the editorial begins. LTA X's continued service in the SAF is an embarrassment the entire officer corps. In the SAF we are constantly being told that we have very high standards expected from our officers. As an officer cadet any one of these actions would have you put immediately out of course. Here you have a person who lied to his subordinates, went AWOL, attempted to bribe a civil servant, went AWOL again not even a week after being reprimanded, then lied to cover himself, and tried to implicate another person in these lies. He discarded his second chance just days after being given it because he thought he could get away with it. I how ask you what exactly are these high standard that we speak of? I am realistically asking you how much worse than this can an officer really go? Does a person have to commit armed robbery or murder before he fails these supposedly "high" standards of officers in the SAF? I simply fail to understand how someone who would undeniably fail the standards expected of a cadet or even a private can continue to be an officer.
The decisions of the battalion HQ are equally saddening. How can a lower standard of discipline be expected of officers than of men? In the our society, when a police officer commits a crime he is held to an even higher standard, and given even greater punishment than a normal citizen, this is because he has betrayed the very values it is his duty to uphold.
I was told that one of the reasons this was so was that they did not wish to ruin his career with a summary trial. However the SAF is not a charity organisation and does not owe anyone a career. I feel that as a regular his status as an officer and his career should be under even closer scrutiny than that of an NSF, to intentionally withhold such information is effectively tricking the SAF into continuing to pay someone whom if all is known, has no place in the organisation.
Another reason told to me for LTA X's lighter punishment was that it is in light of the work he has done for the battalion, I feel this is unacceptable for several reasons. Firstly in our country we do not mitigate punishments based on past achievements, Durai was not excused despite the amount of money he helped NKF raise, and a doctor would not be excused from molestation no matter how many lives he has helped save. Secondly such mitigation is nothing more than justified corruption and no different from a criminal paying off the police to escape arrest, the very thing we fight so hard to keep out of our society, Finally even if the previous two points are conceded, what LTA X did was not a mistake, mistakes are done by accident. What he has demonstrated is a systematic failure of character and unacceptable as an officer.
Is it not sheer insolence of 2Lt Li to upbraid the SAF heirachy and tarnish the good name of the SAF and its Officer Corp with one broad stroke of his uncritical brush ?
Anyone else would have been charged for insolence and insubordination.
While Durai was not excused, his sentence is seemingly light considering the gravity of the charges laid against him.
Even if you attribute the lack of punishment to extreme leniency, the decision to not inform the battalion is even more suspicious. Especially in a _____ unit such as _________ where the importance of being on duty cannot be over emphasized, to not even inform the battalion of the occurrence is to send a signal that there is nothing wrong with his actions. If it was unintentional it shows gross negligence for something which is clearly an important matter, and if intentional shows a level of corruption that I need not elaborate on.
While some might say this is just a small matter, a story of a single bad officer, the fact that it was not dealt with more severely is indicative of a bigger problem. It shows the lack of quality control being practiced for the leaders of the SAF. The following quote was taken from the army's own intranet homepage:
"In the 3rd Generation SAF, the quality and commitment of our people will continue to be the most important determinant for advancement" - Member of Parliament Ms Indranee Rajah
We can take criticism about having second hand equipment, outdated training methods, and even questionable relevance to modern day operations. But one thing that cannot be tolerated is a reputation for having bad leaders. Such a reputation would compromise Singapore's defence credibility far more than using refurbished tanks or old training manuals.
While I may only be a 2nd lieutenant, I am a citizen of this country. And as a citizen I have the right to demand high standards from the leaders of the SAF While it is true that high standards are hard to come by and even harder to enforce, for such events to come to light and yet nothing be done about it is to say the very least, unacceptable and disappointing.
Yours Sincerely,
2LT Li Hongyi -
___________ Commander
The first paragraph shows the atrocious arrogance in the assumptions made concerning negligence and corruption of the SAF Officer Corp and its leadership quality.
Are these assumptions based on pure speculation or facts ?
Projecting this further onto the National Level, how should Singaporean's conclude the inaction of the Singapore Government towards the Two Cabinet Ministers who came to the defense of Durai and his NKF - when even backbenchers had brought their concerns in Parliament due to the expressions of public unease ?
Are we not having a similar scene of the Singapore PM also seemingly behaving in the same manner of 2Lt Li's immediate commander in not taking any actions despite the matters being raised; and now that the beans have been spilled open, no further actions are contmplated against the Ministers ? -
This complaint will not transform the SAF into a tight knit organization, just as smartness on parade and strict regimented discipline will not turn the SAF into a formidable force.
Hongyi had compared old NKF with the SAF incident to make a point.
It is out of context and couldnÂ’t help but lead people to think Temasek. So far, no one is made liable for the blunders that Temasek holdings had made.
Virgin has screwed SIA and Singtel and still a Virgin.
Singapore need people like Sir Richard Branson to helm the state owned business. -
It is a kachang putih complaint, no use complainging i think it is bad blood between the two, in many org, be it civil service or private sector, there are many such cases where one pits against another, in order to get promotion, even in politics, it is the same. SAF is a reputable organisation, awol all these isssues are minor, It dont affect the moral overall.
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Honestly, having serve the Navy for 13 years, I would not celebrate 2LT Li for his actions. If it has been someone else, he would loose his scholarship and be thrown into detention barrack.Originally posted by polityka:No, I am just stating it as I see it.
I don't expect everyone to applaud 2LT Li for his actions but I think if you want to be critical for whatever reason, at least think through your position and be rational about it before you let it loose on the general populace.
In military, absolute obedience to the chain of command is mandatory. Even if it is the wrong command; otherwise, no command would have effective control over his troops during battle.
Personally, I think 2LT Li has the right intention and his cause is just but I disagree with his method of broadcasting to all (I read his mail).
Let me share with you my experience. I had a female officer who was a total failure in carrying out her duties. In fact, she did not do any as she was AWOL most of the time. I remembered one occasion when there was a big event and she was suppose to present her plans but she took urgent leave; citing her mother had fell down and needs to be in hospital. Our command launch an investigation can call her mother; she was taking her driving lessons.
Most of the time, I had to cover her duty as I reported to her. I did her plans and even presented them. I was officially carrying out a CPT's responsibility even though I was a NCO. When I launched an official complaint, I was graded C for my annual review and lost my promotion.
Looking back, I thank my superior official for condemning me as I would not have left the Navy otherwise.
In short, I can understand 2LT Li's decision but I would not do what he did. He is bound for a spectacular career in the Military. In another 5 years time, he would have the authority and the command to change things. Now, he needs to be a good soldier and obey his superiors.
Imagine if in future, his subordinates disagree with how things are being done and start emailing the whole world because there was a preceding case and person was only reprimanded. The military would be in chaos. -
Incidentally, I was in Japan two weeks ago when the Defense Minister had to resign because he made a casual statement that "the US atomic bombing of Japan is regretted but inevitable".
When will we see such accountability in our government?
So far, we have only seen reprimands, rethink, honest mistakes etc... Oh, and salary increment despite repeated failures. -
Originally posted by Atobe:A reprimand is not a death sentence, nor is it a jail term, nor is a stain on one's career.
The U.S. General Patton had more then a few reprimands in his military career and it did not stopped the recognition of his ability and qualities as a Military Leader. Despite all the many reprimands, he was trusted for his tenacity and single minded drive in achieving his goals, and was never doubted to hurt anyone's interests - especially that of the US Military.
Patton was the batch of officers "where the stars land upon". During the course of my research and studies, I have came across materials which says that neither Patton nor any of his classmates would have rose to become generals if not for the War.
We will never know if 2LTA will acheive what Patton did without a war.
Who can tell what was cooking in 2Lt Li's mind when he wrote what he experienced based on his own judgmental sense of duty and responsibility ?
Indeed, and hence we should not make wild assumptions that he did it out of self-interest. He did something good. Period.
Incidentally, we also don't know what's cooking in your mind when you wrote all these posts, was it based on the willingness to improves the lives of Singaporeans or do you have a personal grudge that we don't know about with someone in the PAP. But the lack of knowledge of your motives never caused us to doubt your posts. Please give 2LTA the benefits of the doubt that we have given you.
2Lt Li may have exposed a seeming viper's pit of incompetent and malingering SAF officers, but do we know the full extent of the entire story from both sides ?
No, but the other party has not responded in any manner. While he can't do the CC to everybody stunt again, he can choose to log onto any of the forum that is wildly discussing the issue under a nick and offer the other version of the story. In any way, we can only make decisions based on information available to us, and based on the current available information, Lee Junior is not the bad guy here.
Did 2Lt overstepped his own office in the manner of his letter writings 'to all and sundry' ?
Hell ya. And since when do whistle blower not do that?
Was he drawing attention to the seeming problem that he had stumbled on, OR was he drawing attention to himself for being smart enough to have discovered the malpractise and for making it public ?
I don't know, but if we don't know his motive, there's no reason to aussme it to be the worse one. When you wrote long scholarly posts about acheiving more democracy and freedom for Singapore, "Were you drawing attention to the seeming problem that you had stumbled on, Or were you drawing attention to yourself for being smart enough to have discovered the malpractise and for making it on Sgforum?"
If we were to approve 2Lt Li's actions, we will have to persecute the entire SAF Chain of Command for the incompetency of the entire system that allowed such malingering and irresponsible officers to have existed in the SAF ?
And that would be not advisable because....?
If it is a culture, could it have been developed recently, or has it been a characteristic feature of the SAF that has been allowed to fester since the SAF was purposefully developed from 1967 on our sudden independence in 1965.
No idea, I tell you if I find out and you tell me if you ever do. Point is, we don't want to see the culture after 2007.
This 'scandalous expose' has put the spotlight onto the weakness of the SAF supervisory line of command during peace time. and one can only wonder how valid are the reviews and inspections in the Annual Competition for the title of the Best SAF Combat Units in the respective SAF specialist arms.
Well the "scandalous expose" is also in peace time, thanks to a certain 2LTA who has been sort of bombarded on some internet forums.
Is the SAF management system out-of-touch with the reality on the ground ?
Only one test to find that out buddy, and it's called war. And hell I don't want to have a chance to test it.
Is the Minister of Defense from the Ruling Party similarly out-of-touch with events on the ground, and their measure of success and achievements based on the development of technology introduction into the SAF ?
same as above.
If this is so, is this not a sad reflection of the fact that the Singapore Government is similarly in self-denial, and out-of-touch with the reality on the ground in the heartlands - in which the Citizens are suffering under the weight of the abuses the government had poured onto our Lives since the Election 2006 was drawn to a close ?
Luckily we have sons of leaders of Singapore Government to uncover truth for us in time isn't it? (This is a crap answer, but it suits your question)
While some may find reasons to absolve 2Lt Li's actions - whether he is the PM's son or not - I find his actions to be totally impetuous and disrespectful of the SAF 'esprit de corp'.
Each of his own, I respect your view, that's fine. I find his actions to be totally admirable.
The fact that he is PM's son makes his attitude and actions even more acutely in the lime light, and his handiwork a reflection of his own character.
His attitude and actions are also in the limelight because people keep hammering in the fact that he is the PM's son. Well, just take him as a normal person and see if you would come up with a similar conclusion.
How many Singaporeans will even have our father at the helm ?
How many people are you expecting at the helm? And we don't choose which family we are born into.
How many Singaporean NSF has the opportunity of bringing such failures to the ears of his father who is a PM ?
Depends on how many PM we intend to have.
Was his actions encouraged by his Parents ?
No idea, but if my parents encourage me to do something which resulted me in getting reprimanded by the Army, I sure aren't going to buy him the most expensive gift for the next Father's day. But, that's just me.
Did you read the contents in 2Lt Li's letter ?
I sure did. Did you?
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His intention was good but wrong method by not following the Chain of Command. Good luck to the LTA X and our very PM's son.
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2Lt Li may have exposed a seeming viper's pit of incompetent and malingering SAF officers, but do we know the full extent of the entire story from both sides ?
Well Atobe, most of your points are pretty good except prehaps your speculations on the character of 2Lt Li are probably off.
Did 2Lt overstepped his own office in the manner of his letter writings 'to all and sundry' ?
Was he drawing attention to the seeming problem that he had stumbled on, OR was he drawing attention to himself for being smart enough to have discovered the malpractise and for making it public ?
This is because I had spent 3 months with that chap as his instructor while he was a recruit during his BMTC and more or less I seriously doubt the speculation that he was trying to draw attention to himself for being smart.
In all he was not to pompus, born-with-a-silver-spoon in the mouth elite that wrote the Wee Shumin letters, but as a matter of fact a rather down to earth person who was well-liked by his peers, low key about his status, did his part and never gave much trouble.
I don't know that much about politics, but maybe I do know more about being a grunt (soldier), and all in all in the 90 days I was teaching this guy to be a soldier along with my friends we more or less could understand that this dude wasn't trying to be an elite smarty pants.
I'm not sure when you served in NS, but on my side I experienced plenty of the funny patterns that we NSFs will come out with to squeeze the most out our weekend duties, at times at the expense of our fellow soldiers. And well and truly understands the joker who books in late to take over duty at the expense of his friends, and yet gets away with it because the higher ups could not be bothered with what they deem as "five-cents, ten-cents" matters to be settled among the junior commanders, which invariably involve a lot of politics, and often get some people getting away with daylight robbery while others suffer in silence.
What can I say abour 2Lt Li? I do not condone the way he carried out his actions to bring this out into the light (there are better ways of doing it). But I would attribute it to sheer silliness, fustration and heat-of-the-moment or even childishness then sheer elitist malice.
For all I know about this person's character does not suggest he considers himself an elite- not in the Wee Shumin way anyway. Anal and by-the-book prehaps, but trying to paint the character of his fathers onto him is prehaps taking things a bit too far.
As to what punishment for 2Lt Li is apporiate, I shall remain out of the debate, for the simple reason I see this issue as a grunt-thing more then a politican, and grunts are rarely inpartial. In fact most long-suffering grunts on the ground would probably cheer the exposure and shake-up of the system to expose all the unwritten rules that have long exploited the hapless no matter how it comes about.
So naturally grunts will feel protective about the whistle blower, even if his fathers hold policies that are something that they may strongly disagree with. -
That said, if my previous post seems incongrous with the usual tone of my posts, this is because I am writing from the perspective of a grunt, and the grunts' duty (in any free state) is to preserve and fight for democracy and justice... not to pratice it.
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There are a couple of things you took issue with concerning the written email, chief among them is the fact that he wrote it just before discrupting, rather than send it at the time of the incident.Originally posted by Atobe:A reprimand is not a death sentence, nor is it a jail term, nor is a stain on one's career.
The U.S. General Patton had more then a few reprimands in his military career and it did not stopped the recognition of his ability and qualities as a Military Leader. Despite all the many reprimands, he was trusted for his tenacity and single minded drive in achieving his goals, and was never doubted to hurt anyone's interests - especially that of the US Military.
Who can tell what was cooking in 2Lt Li's mind when he wrote what he experienced based on his own judgmental sense of duty and responsibility ?
2Lt Li may have exposed a seeming viper's pit of incompetent and malingering SAF officers, but do we know the full extent of the entire story from both sides ?
Did 2Lt overstepped his own office in the manner of his letter writings 'to all and sundry' ?
Was he drawing attention to the seeming problem that he had stumbled on, OR was he drawing attention to himself for being smart enough to have discovered the malpractise and for making it public ?
If we were to approve 2Lt Li's actions, we will have to persecute the entire SAF Chain of Command for the incompetency of the entire system that allowed such malingering and irresponsible officers to have existed in the SAF ?
If it is a culture, could it have been developed recently, or has it been a characteristic feature of the SAF that has been allowed to fester since the SAF was purposefully developed from 1967 on our sudden independence in 1965.
This 'scandalous expose' has put the spotlight onto the weakness of the SAF supervisory line of command during peace time. and one can only wonder how valid are the reviews and inspections in the Annual Competition for the title of the Best SAF Combat Units in the respective SAF specialist arms.
Is the SAF management system out-of-touch with the reality on the ground ?
Is the Minister of Defense from the Ruling Party similarly out-of-touch with events on the ground, and their measure of success and achievements based on the development of technology introduction into the SAF ?
If this is so, is this not a sad reflection of the fact that the Singapore Government is similarly in self-denial, and out-of-touch with the reality on the ground in the heartlands - in which the Citizens are suffering under the weight of the abuses the government had poured onto our Lives since the Election 2006 was drawn to a close ?
While some may find reasons to absolve 2Lt Li's actions - whether he is the PM's son or not - I find his actions to be totally impetuous and disrespectful of the SAF 'esprit de corp'.
The fact that he is PM's son makes his attitude and actions even more acutely in the lime light, and his handiwork a reflection of his own character.
How many Singaporeans will even have our father at the helm ?
How many Singaporean NSF has the opportunity of bringing such failures to the ears of his father who is a PM ?
Was his actions encouraged by his Parents ?
Did you read the contents in 2Lt Li's letter ?
Honestly, if i were in his place, and felt compelled to expose a rotting system which let down the principles of an SAF officer, i would send it at the same time he did. Why?
Firstly, someone like Li Hongyi cannot be considered unintelligent, considering that he is under a PSC scholarship. He must surely have known the consequences of his email and the fallout afterwards. To whistleblow on his superiors is either being very brave, or fantasically stupid, especially since it will end in summary trials or court martial. So it makes more sense to send it before he leaves, because the scholarship adds additional red tape to an already sticky situation.
Secondly, he must be given the benefit of doubt. Surely he must have attempted to exhaust all avenues before even drafting the letter? Would not sending the email out at the dearth imply that he HAS TRIED all options and found them wanting BEFORE sending out his 'doomsday email'? That he tried (as indicated clearly in his email) and considered the response as benign from his superior officers must indicate either favourism or deliberate cover-ups instigated by his unit senior staff not to implicate LTA 'X'.
Thirdly, you suggest that he and LTA 'X' shares some animosity. At this point, such suggestions are pure speculation. It is common knowledge among those who have served NSF that this kind of situation exists; it is not a one-off incident. The 'do-don't-get-caught' syndrome is rampant in the army, even among officers. That's not to say that punitive action wasn't taken againts errant offenders; officers have been charged, some busted back down to 3SGs. But there are some who escaped punishment, and therefore 'didn't get caught'. The world isn't fair, but such is life.
It's perfectly normal of an officer like Li Hongyi to become upset at what he perceives as an obvious lack of integrity, not just with LTA 'X' but also with the senior officers for 'closing one eye'.
I for one do not condone cover-ups and senior officers who 'abuse' their position and authority to 'cover-up' such an incident is also guilty of misuse of power.
Li simply exposed them in the worst possible way. But perhaps in the long run, it might serve us well, since our SAF has been long in need of a complacent jolt to wake them up, especially all those ACGS who think all is rosy at the bottom. -
Originally posted by wisefool83:
Original post by Atobe:
A reprimand is not a death sentence, nor is it a jail term, nor is a stain on one's career.
The U.S. General Patton had more then a few reprimands in his military career and it did not stopped the recognition of his ability and qualities as a Military Leader. Despite all the many reprimands, he was trusted for his tenacity and single minded drive in achieving his goals, and was never doubted to hurt anyone's interests - especially that of the US Military.
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Patton was the batch of officers "where the stars land upon". During the course of my research and studies, I have came across materials which says that neither Patton nor any of his classmates would have rose to become generals if not for the War.
We will never know if 2LTA will acheive what Patton did without a war.
Unusual circumstances bring up the best in every individual and this will be possible in an open society where the best are given a shot to achieve what they are capable of.
In a closed society where meritocracy is used as a standard and is nothing more than elitism, the best may not necessarily be filtered from the mass and the likes of Patton may not even be found in times of crisis.Who can tell what was cooking in 2Lt Li's mind when he wrote what he experienced based on his own judgmental sense of duty and responsibility ?
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Indeed, and hence we should not make wild assumptions that he did it out of self-interest. He did something good. Period.
The positions taken by you and I depends on which end of the telescope one is viewing, and the individual ''value'' that is intended for the SAF.
When making his wild allegation in the supposedly flaw in the ''Quality Control'' of SAF Officers churned out by OCS, has he not considered that he is part of the alleged flaw in OCS ?
As an SAF Officer and having displayed such indiscretion with his views, is he up to the mark with his seeming interest for the good of the SAF ?
I am surprised at your emphatic confidence when his intentions remained unclear, and the effects of his allegation are at best scandolous.Incidentally, we also don't know what's cooking in your mind when you wrote all these posts, was it based on the willingness to improves the lives of Singaporeans or do you have a personal grudge that we don't know about with someone in the PAP. But the lack of knowledge of your motives never caused us to doubt your posts. Please give 2LTA the benefits of the doubt that we have given you.
''Judge the message, not the messenger.''
If the message is flawed, kill the messenger - is that not what has been the standard here in this - and any other - very open public forum ?
If my message is flawed is there anything to prevent myself from being debunked - in the same manner as some others have stubbornly pushed their positions and got themselves incinerated ?
2Lt Li's message was flawed, and his method of sending to multiple receipients reveals a severe flaw in judgment as an SAF Officer.
If he had considered his own sensitive background, one would have expected him to have received more acute guidance concerning the sensitivity of his politial place and space in a very closed Singapore Society.
Had he been a lesser individual - he would have received a far more severe response than a mere reprimand.
2Lt Li may have exposed a seeming viper's pit of incompetent and malingering SAF officers, but do we know the full extent of the entire story from both sides ?
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No, but the other party has not responded in any manner. While he can't do the CC to everybody stunt again, he can choose to log onto any of the forum that is wildly discussing the issue under a nick and offer the other version of the story. In any way, we can only make decisions based on information available to us, and based on the current available information, Lee Junior is not the bad guy here.
The other party will not be able to respond in any public ways, as the proceedings of the upcoming court martial will never be publicly released.
After this event, it is unlikely that 2Lt Li will even be allowed to dwell on this matter in any way - let alone in any public forum, whether anonymously or otherwise.
I will agree with you insofar as Lee Junior is not the ONLY bad guy here.
Did 2Lt overstepped his own office in the manner of his letter writings 'to all and sundry' ?
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Hell ya. And since when do whistle blower not do that?
Can 2Lt Li be seen as a 'whistle blower' for his actions ?
Your persistent line in your approach seems to make him a hero of some kind.
Was he drawing attention to the seeming problem that he had stumbled on, OR was he drawing attention to himself for being smart enough to have discovered the malpractise and for making it public ?
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I don't know, but if we don't know his motive, there's no reason to aussme it to be the worse one. When you wrote long scholarly posts about acheiving more democracy and freedom for Singapore, "Were you drawing attention to the seeming problem that you had stumbled on, Or were you drawing attention to yourself for being smart enough to have discovered the malpractise and for making it on Sgforum?"
You are welcome to think of the worst to my posts, and debunk my position if you find any flaws in the message.
In any other less controversial circumstances, I will give the benefit of the doubt to anyone. However, in situations that obviously violate the senses between ''right and wrong'' - it is best to err on the safe side by assuming the worst.
2Lt Li has violated my senses with his obviously narrow personal views towards a few individuals - his immediate superiors - and extended his assumption of the worst onto the entire SAF heirachy and the system that had even produced him as part of the Leadership Corp.
As a 2Lt in the SAF Officer Corp, is he not a product of the system that he deem to be flawed ?
If he had the courage to stand by his statements and views to the alleged flaws in the selection and production of its leadership - he should have given up his commission as an SAF Officer.
I would have given him high marks for his character and conviction to his present views.
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continuation
If we were to approve 2Lt Li's actions, we will have to persecute the entire SAF Chain of Command for the incompetency of the entire system that allowed such malingering and irresponsible officers to have existed in the SAF ?
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And that would be not advisable because....?
Politics.
[quote]
If it is a culture, could it have been developed recently, or has it been a characteristic feature of the SAF that has been allowed to fester since the SAF was purposefully developed from 1967 on our sudden independence in 1965.
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No idea, I tell you if I find out and you tell me if you ever do. Point is, we don't want to see the culture after 2007.
If you have not been part of the 'SAF Leadership Corp' – will you ever know about the 'leadership culture' from the inside, or will you depend on external sources ?
If the culture is true according to 2Lt experience, surely it can only be a consequence to the pervasiveness of the influence from Singapore Inc - as already revealed itself in the NKF. Do you think that SAF is immune when it is a direct product of the system ?
This 'scandalous expose' has put the spotlight onto the weakness of the SAF supervisory line of command during peace time. and one can only wonder how valid are the reviews and inspections in the Annual Competition for the title of the Best SAF Combat Units in the respective SAF specialist arms.
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Well the "scandalous expose" is also in peace time, thanks to a certain 2LTA who has been sort of bombarded on some internet forums.
If this ''scandolous expose'' is endemic in the SAF, I am quite certain that MINDEF and the Political Leadership do not share your enthusiasm towards the indiscretions from this 2Lt - whom you see as a Hero.
The dumb 2Lt has exposed the soft side of the SAF that has been viewed with high respect as the most powerful military in Southeast Asia.
Now others will wonder how credible is our defense strategies when the Officer Corp is accused to be sub-standard, an assessment made by none other then from a member of the First Family.
Is the SAF management system out-of-touch with the reality on the ground ?
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Only one test to find that out buddy, and it's called war. And hell I don't want to have a chance to test it.
This is where creativity and experience separate those with Leadership qualities from those who are too afraid to even face the Truth.
It takes Leadership to prepare untrained and unskilled personnel, and put them through the most rigorous training to face any possible war scenarios. It takes the foresight and imagination from Leadership to set realistic benchmarks by matching our personnel in training with other military units that have more experience. Short of actual combat experience, the next best approach is to determine where and how our troops compare in terms of unit morale, stamina, Â’esprit de corpÂ’ combined with training and equipment to meet mission objectives.
So far the SAF Leadership has performed and prepared the SAF to the best level of preparedness in terms of personnel training and sophistication of equipment, all of which has gained respect from even professional armies in this region and further. This is not mere jingoistic pride, but from recognition and appreciation given by Foreign Senior Commanders from more advanced military, which the SAF has declared partnership with.
This SAF reality is a total contrast to the blasphemeous allegations made by 2Lt Li.
Is the Minister of Defense from the Ruling Party similarly out-of-touch with events on the ground, and their measure of success and achievements based on the development of technology introduction into the SAF ?
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same as above.
ditto
If this is so, is this not a sad reflection of the fact that the Singapore Government is similarly in self-denial, and out-of-touch with the reality on the ground in the heartlands - in which the Citizens are suffering under the weight of the abuses the government had poured onto our Lives since the Election 2006 was drawn to a close ?
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Luckily we have sons of leaders of Singapore Government to uncover truth for us in time isn't it? (This is a crap answer, but it suits your question)
Unfortunately, you see what you get.
You see crap, you will think crap, and you will get crap...
Can we expect anything more from Â’Â’fools who believe themselves to be wiseÂ’Â’ ?
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While some may find reasons to absolve 2Lt Li's actions - whether he is the PM's son or not - I find his actions to be totally impetuous and disrespectful of the SAF 'esprit de corp'.
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Each of his own, I respect your view, that's fine. I find his actions to be totally admirable.
Thanks but no thanks for any of your unsolicited respect.
The fact that he is PM's son makes his attitude and actions even more acutely in the lime light, and his handiwork a reflection of his own character.
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His attitude and actions are also in the limelight because people keep hammering in the fact that he is the PM's son. Well, just take him as a normal person and see if you would come up with a similar conclusion.
Even as a normal person, his character is flawed to make him to be an Officer – as evidence by his conduct and his attitude towards his immediate superiors, as well as his wild allegations at the entire SAF Command Structure.
If the system is at fault, it had failed to filter his flawed character.
How many Singaporeans will even have our father at the helm ?
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How many people are you expecting at the helm? And we don't choose which family we are born into.
From you reply given, it is clear that you have not one at the helm, can anyone expect you to know how to make consultation with the problems that you have encountered in the SAF ?
How many Singaporean NSF has the opportunity of bringing such failures to the ears of his father who is a PM ?
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Depends on how many PM we intend to have.
See above
Was his actions encouraged by his Parents ?
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No idea, but if my parents encourage me to do something which resulted me in getting reprimanded by the Army, I sure aren't going to buy him the most expensive gift for the next Father's day. But, that's just me.
Unfortunately for you, your parents are not in the same position as that of 2Lt Li, who also have a Grand Father that has more ambitious plans for a Political Dynasty that spans several generations.
Did you read the contents in 2Lt Li's letter ?
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I sure did. Did you?
Clearly, you did not follow the thread closely enough. -
My grateful thanks for your effort in giving us an insight of your experience when training 2Lt Li during his recruit period in the SAF.
My effort in breaking up your post is not to be obnoxious, but to give due attention to your admirable effort made to help us understand 2Lt Li better.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
While I can accept your views of your experience and conclusions of 2Lt Li - at that point in time when you were his instructor during the three month period of initiation into the SAF; surely you will not guarantee that what you see in an inexperienced recruit will be the same person when he morphed into the rank of an Officer ?
Well Atobe, most of your points are pretty good except prehaps your speculations on the character of 2Lt Li are probably off.
This is because I had spent 3 months with that chap as his instructor while he was a recruit during his BMTC and more or less I seriously doubt the speculation that he was trying to draw attention to himself for being smart.
In all he was not to pompus, born-with-a-silver-spoon in the mouth elite that wrote the Wee Shumin letters, but as a matter of fact a rather down to earth person who was well-liked by his peers, low key about his status, did his part and never gave much trouble.
I don't know that much about politics, but maybe I do know more about being a grunt (soldier), and all in all in the 90 days I was teaching this guy to be a soldier along with my friends we more or less could understand that this dude wasn't trying to be an elite smarty pants.
During my days in the NSF, I was shocked to see a docile recruit in my platoon turned into a classic tormentor when his turn came to be an instructor.
Similarly, I was stunned that my trust in someone whom I have known and respected as an SAF officer for many years, had encouraged several officers into a business venture, will turn out to be capable of lying and taking his business partners for a ride.
Do we know the person whom we think we know ?
Some people change when elevated into a different role or position - for varied reasons that can range from maintaining aloofness from being seen to be subjected to partiality, or to maintain proper decorum to the office that one has been elevated into.
One of the most reknown character change was with our late President Devan Nair, who had commented that his days in the Istana was like ''a bird in a gilded cage''.
The SAF are staffed by humans, the ''day-to-day down-to-earth'' Singaporean, and are no different from those whom we have as our executives, managers and directors.
I'm not sure when you served in NS, but on my side I experienced plenty of the funny patterns that we NSFs will come out with to squeeze the most out our weekend duties, at times at the expense of our fellow soldiers. And well and truly understands the joker who books in late to take over duty at the expense of his friends, and yet gets away with it because the higher ups could not be bothered with what they deem as "five-cents, ten-cents" matters to be settled among the junior commanders, which invariably involve a lot of politics, and often get some people getting away with daylight robbery while others suffer in silence.
What do you think will make a good leader ?
One who sticks by the book without any imagination, or one that exercises initiative and fair judgement to each situation that arises, and also in anticipation of events that will fall on us as warning signs appear ?
My experiences in the SAF are no different from yours, they were varied and depended on where I was posted at different stages of my NSF. During my active and reservist days, I had encountered Officers who will ''stick to rules and doctrines without question'' - even when they have no answers to some smart questions that were asked. Then there were Officers and fellow Platoon Mates who were examplary in their character and actions and were role models for us to emulate - simply due to their leadership qualities gained from their school years, being involved with the Boy Brigade or the Scout movement.
During my NSF period, I had the good fortune of having two different Officers who acted as instructors and were veterans from the ''Konfrontasi period''. My platoon mates and I lapped up the knowledge that they had from their real military experience; and we gave them our enthusiasm. They were demanding during training, but were generous and casual when lessons were over, and will indulge in the most mundane activities such as kite flying and building kayaks kits from timber frame and canvas.
Is it too far fetch that he is not ''a chip off the old block'' ?
What can I say abour 2Lt Li? I do not condone the way he carried out his actions to bring this out into the light (there are better ways of doing it). But I would attribute it to sheer silliness, fustration and heat-of-the-moment or even childishness then sheer elitist malice.
For all I know about this person's character does not suggest he considers himself an elite- not in the Wee Shumin way anyway. Anal and by-the-book prehaps, but trying to paint the character of his fathers onto him is prehaps taking things a bit too far.
Even if 2Lt Li may not have any idea of what his future will be, his Grand-father will already have some ideas some 20 and 30 years into the future for this grandson.
2Lt Li maybe left with the task of deciding how best to handle this situation - as a test set out either by his father or grand-father, and damage control will easily be covered if any adverse fall-out should occur.
After all, how much damage can his letter do, when more serious matters have been so well covered by the Government and-or the Ruling Party ?
Will there be any punishment that will be seen as appropriate for what 2Lt Li has done.
As to what punishment for 2Lt Li is apporiate, I shall remain out of the debate, for the simple reason I see this issue as a grunt-thing more then a politican, and grunts are rarely inpartial. In fact most long-suffering grunts on the ground would probably cheer the exposure and shake-up of the system to expose all the unwritten rules that have long exploited the hapless no matter how it comes about.
So naturally grunts will feel protective about the whistle blower, even if his fathers hold policies that are something that they may strongly disagree with.
The charges that he had wildly levied at the SAF Heirachy is scandolous, and anyone of lesser parental lineage will surely suffer worst fate.
Is 2Lt Li a whistle blower, or simply a disgruntled junior officer with a personal grudge towards LTA X and their Senior Commanders at their Unit HQ for having seemingly protected LTA X.
Since the beginning of the SAF, the Senior Commanders have been given wide discretionary space to exercise initiative and decision making in their execution of MINDEF and SAF objectives.
Fortunately, the SAF do not operate in the manner as Singapore Inc is managed, as at least there is some degree of accountability - which do not exist in Singapore Inc. -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
Your effort in presenting an alternative point of view is appreciated, and I would like to offer my response without having to repeat too much from what have been made in the two preceding responses to wisefool83 and ST.
There are a couple of things you took issue with concerning the written email, chief among them is the fact that he wrote it just before discrupting, rather than send it at the time of the incident.
Honestly, if i were in his place, and felt compelled to expose a rotting system which let down the principles of an SAF officer, i would send it at the same time he did. Why?
Firstly, someone like Li Hongyi cannot be considered unintelligent, considering that he is under a PSC scholarship. He must surely have known the consequences of his email and the fallout afterwards. To whistleblow on his superiors is either being very brave, or fantasically stupid, especially since it will end in summary trials or court martial. So it makes more sense to send it before he leaves, because the scholarship adds additional red tape to an already sticky situation.
You have written on the basis that 2Lt Li is an ordinary Singaporean NSF enlistee, which unfortunately is not the case and must be viewed in his very complex status that exist in reality.
It does not take great courage for 2Lt Li to do what he had done, knowing that ultimately his back is covered by his Father, if not his Mom - and ultimately : Grand-dad.
With the ''connections'' at his disposal, and the ''expected fallout from THIS action'' - I will not be surprised that the lapse in time is probably part of a scheme to allow 2Lt Li the space to act out his play to the fullest; all being part of a grand scheme at his character building towards some future plans from Grand-dad.
You should know that LKY play his chess game based on a time frame that will span at least two to three decades into the future - as he had planned for LHL.
What better way to test his grandson by releasing a wild card into the SAF and let cobwebs be shaken if any are present.
I will certainly agree with you that this matter must have been a burning issue with 2Lt Li for quite some time, and surely he must have sought consultation within his family during the interim period.
Secondly, he must be given the benefit of doubt. Surely he must have attempted to exhaust all avenues before even drafting the letter? Would not sending the email out at the dearth imply that he HAS TRIED all options and found them wanting BEFORE sending out his 'doomsday email'? That he tried (as indicated clearly in his email) and considered the response as benign from his superior officers must indicate either favourism or deliberate cover-ups instigated by his unit senior staff not to implicate LTA 'X'.
I will not be surprised if he was given the liberty to decide for himself any manner that he can take, so as to see how the entire system will react to his approach taken. The family and its Government have experienced worst scandolous debacles that cost Singapore Millions - if not Billions, and have gotten away with it : how much more damage can this letter from a junior grade officer in 2Lt Li make that cannot be contained in a tightly run Singapore ?
Here is a young 2Lt seeing some transgressions that do not quite meet his eye based on his personal standards expected of an Officer. Yet, as an SAF Officer, he will betray the very Institution that produced him by enlarging the allegation net to accuse the Institution of laxity in Quality Control in its appointment of Officers.
His actions are no less honorable as an Officer - should we accept his allegation that the Institution is weak in its QC methods ?
Unless I have read and interpreted your line wrongly - could my suggestions be speculation concerning 2Lt Li and LTA X having some animosity - when you have also stated that -
Thirdly, you suggest that he and LTA 'X' shares some animosity. At this point, such suggestions are pure speculation. It is common knowledge among those who have served NSF that this kind of situation exists; it is not a one-off incident. The 'do-don't-get-caught' syndrome is rampant in the army, even among officers. That's not to say that punitive action wasn't taken againts errant offenders; officers have been charged, some busted back down to 3SGs. But there are some who escaped punishment, and therefore 'didn't get caught'. The world isn't fair, but such is life.
''It is common knowledge among those who have served NSF that this kind of situation exist'' ?
Rivalries amongst Officers are no different from Office Politics; and Office Politics have often resulted in the weakening and ineffectiveness of the Company.
I have even seen fellow officers who were from the same recruit batch, and some continued as Regulars and appointed to senior positions, but behaved as if they were still NCOs - without giving any respect to their own NSF contemporaries and peers, who are of equal rank and appointment seniority.
One of these Regular Officers will dare to place a NSF officer - of equal rank and appointment seniority - on charge based on his miserable understanding on the ORBAT standards, and it was due to the mature judgement by the Unit CO that matters were peaceably resolved amongst his Senior Officers.
Was this event a cover-up ? What will the consequences be if the charges had been proceeded with ? Will the animosity between Regulars and NSF be exacerbated ?
It simply goes to show that an SAF unit cannot be a cohesive fighting force, when personal rivalries between fellow officers take on an ugly shade; and it is important that Officers be given space for initiative and leadership decision.
While 2Lt Li Hongyi may be upset on the events based on his perception and personal standards of integrity - it does not justify the course of actions that he had taken, nor the wild allegations that he had made that deeply discredit the entire Institution on his personal questions on the Quality Control methods of producing SAF Officers.
It's perfectly normal of an officer like Li Hongyi to become upset at what he perceives as an obvious lack of integrity, not just with LTA 'X' but also with the senior officers for 'closing one eye'.
I for one do not condone cover-ups and senior officers who 'abuse' their position and authority to 'cover-up' such an incident is also guilty of misuse of power.
Li simply exposed them in the worst possible way. But perhaps in the long run, it might serve us well, since our SAF has been long in need of a complacent jolt to wake them up, especially all those ACGS who think all is rosy at the bottom.
This entire storm should not have happened if 2Lt Li had been more discerning as expected of an SAF Officer, and more so if he is aware of his own background to be more circumspect to the consequences of his actions and allegations - especially on an Institution that is the psychological armor which serves as a deterence towards any evil scheme to fall on Singapore.
His criticism and wild allegations have blemished the SAF to its core.
This SAF structure has produced the last few generations of Officers - that included LG Winston Choo (Retired), the present Chief of Defense Force, as well as the Chief of Army and all in the SAF Command Structure.
If the system is alleged to have a flaw, it certainly showed that it had failed to filter a 2Lt Li with a character flaw as he had so cleverly suppressed until he decide to let off his uncontrolled anger in the widest publicity stunt possible.
Is there any system that can filter out in advance such an anomaly in human character ? -
Blemish or not, the SAF needs a wake-up call, and drastic measures are sometimes needed to kick-start those slumbering paper-trained generals to address an age-old rot, loss of face be damned.Originally posted by Atobe:While 2Lt Li Hongyi may be upset on the events based on his perception and personal standards of integrity - it does not justify the course of actions that he had taken, nor the wild allegations that he had made that deeply discredit the entire Institution on his personal questions on the Quality Control methods of producing SAF Officers.
This entire storm should not have happened if 2Lt Li had been more discerning as expected of an SAF Officer, and more so if he is aware of his own background to be more circumspect to the consequences of his actions and allegations - especially on an Institution that is the psychological armor which serves as a deterence towards any evil scheme to fall on Singapore.
His criticism and wild allegations have blemished the SAF to its core.
This SAF structure has produced the last few generations of Officers - that included LG Winston Choo (Retired), the present Chief of Defense Force, as well as the Chief of Army and all in the SAF Command Structure.
If the system is alleged to have a flaw, it certainly showed that it had failed to filter a 2Lt Li with a character flaw as he had so cleverly suppressed until he decide to let off his uncontrolled anger in the widest publicity stunt possible.
Is there any system that can filter out in advance such an anomaly in human character ?
Li has made a case, through what he believes as the only way feasible. Given the enormous attention given to the fact that he's reporting it in his capacity as a PM's son rather than a whistleblower, it's safe to assume that the same senior officers who dismissed his complaints likely treated them as a 'white horse' trying to flaunt his weight under the guise of 'integrity'.
The chain of command is also limiting in that once you go to your superior officer and that fails, the next step is the officer above that rank. It's like a PC complaining to the S3 after his OC ignores him. After that, the next person is the unit CO. What if that fails? Will one pursue this crusade up to the brigade and div commanding officers? The very-singaporean approach will simply be to stop at the two tier complaint level, at most pursing the case with the unit CO. If that fails, chances are the officer will not continue pursing further.
At which time, superiors will begin to think this junior officer is making a mountain of a molehill, and turn him from whistleblower into a s-h-i-t stirrer.
We need to be mindful of such limitations and how it affects indviduals. At the end of the day, even if the SAF suffers initally, it will get better in the long run. -
Originally posted by BillyBong:
From your response, I can see that either you have personal distressing encounters of some similar frustratingly helpless situations, or that you have some chip on your shoulder towards the SAF Officer Corp.
Blemish or not, the SAF needs a wake-up call, and drastic measures are sometimes needed to kick-start those slumbering paper-trained generals to address an age-old rot, loss of face be damned.
Li has made a case, through what he believes as the only way feasible. Given the enormous attention given to the fact that he's reporting it in his capacity as a PM's son rather than a whistleblower, it's safe to assume that the same senior officers who dismissed his complaints likely treated them as a 'white horse' trying to flaunt his weight under the guise of 'integrity'.
The chain of command is also limiting in that once you go to your superior officer and that fails, the next step is the officer above that rank. It's like a PC complaining to the S3 after his OC ignores him. After that, the next person is the unit CO. What if that fails? Will one pursue this crusade up to the brigade and div commanding officers? The very-singaporean approach will simply be to stop at the two tier complaint level, at most pursing the case with the unit CO. If that fails, chances are the officer will not continue pursing further.
At which time, superiors will begin to think this junior officer is making a mountain of a molehill, and turn him from whistleblower into a s-h-i-t stirrer.
We need to be mindful of such limitations and how it affects indviduals. At the end of the day, even if the SAF suffers initally, it will get better in the long run.
I surely hope that it is not the latter as seemingly reflected in your statements of frustrations with the SAF.
The SAF system is no different from that of any military, which had initial relationships with the traditions from the British Military as a role model in the initial effort to build the SAF.
This early SAF structure and methods had seen influence from Israeli military methods and doctrines; and quietly over the last ten years, the SAF organisation of men and equipment had morphed towards the US military management of men, equipment and technology.
The problem with 2Lt Li's letter has to be seen in three folds - his personal problems with LTA X and the Senior Officers above him; secondly, his wild allegations on the entire SAF Officer Corp based on his 'LIMITED' and 'LOCALISED' experience at his Unit level; third - the indiscretion made to gain wide attention to his very localised problems encountered.
Have you not realised that the SAF manner of handling complaints is no different from the ways complaints are handled by some Commercial Enterprise in the Civilian World ?
Similarly, how often have we heard of similar complaints from Singaporeans being stone-walled by Public Relation Managers from the Ministries to some of the complaints that we feel strongly about ? Ministers were also seen to cleverly skirt issues and give ''non-answers'' to important issues.
The SAF is no different from these Commercial Organisations and Government Ministries - except that the Officers of the SAF Units are directly accountable for their positions, while the CEOs of Commerical Organisations and Ministers of Governments are seemingly 'unaccountable' to Singaporeans.
The manner in which Unit Commanders - (at Division, Brigade, Battalion, Company, Platoon or Section levels) - will satisfactorily respond to any situation must necessarly be influenced and dependant on a mix of personal qualities. Such qualities will need a mix of the best and highest levels of maturity, experience, character, conciousness - (presence of mind), conscience, personal flair, articulating skills, and the mysterious charisma of leadership - (and this list is not entirely comprehensive).
While I can emphatise with your frustrations, I cannot accept that your position and that of 2Lt Li is endemic in the SAF, as my encounters in four different SAF units were positively different, even when I had encountered middle ranking officers who are a pain in the back with their very personal manner of seeing jobs get done.
If the Singapore Operating Philosophy - of getting the job done first, no matter the cost to individual preferences (freedom) - is accepted to be the successful model for Singapore, it is no different in the SAF or that of any military.
Whatever state the SAF maybe that need a shake-up, it does not warrant the wild allegations in the statements made by 2Lt Li and it has nothing to do with a 'loss of face' as you have suggested.
The consequences of 2Lt allegations bring up many questions that concerns the quality of the SAF Leadership - and in turn the quality of the SAF - which has presented itself as the most technologically advanced military in this corner of the world populated by volatile and mercurial peoples that have different value system from us.
If the quality of the SAF Leadership is now suspect, the psychological deterrence in having a strong SAF will already lose its value.
Some mischevious elements in neighboring countries may wish to push the limits of 'military adventurism' to have a real test of our Political and Military Leadership and the will of Singaporeans.
If 2Lt Li had received the blessings from the First Family, and given space for his freedom of actions - to seemingly shake up the SAF - it will not be the first time that the First Family have made strategic mistakes in their fifty years in the seat of political authority. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
While i may have suffered similar disappointments with some of the decisions made by senior officers during my time, i am reconciled by the fact that not all officers make good decisions, and not all good decisions may be 'right' decisions.
From your response, I can see that either you have personal distressing encounters of some similar frustratingly helpless situations, or that you have some chip on your shoulder towards the SAF Officer Corp.
I surely hope that it is not the latter as seemingly reflected in your statements of frustrations with the SAF.
The SAF system is no different from that of any military, which had initial relationships with the traditions from the British Military as a role model in the initial effort to build the SAF.
This early SAF structure and methods had seen influence from Israeli military methods and doctrines; and quietly over the last ten years, the SAF organisation of men and equipment had morphed towards the US military management of men, equipment and technology.
The problem with 2Lt Li's letter has to be seen in three folds - his personal problems with LTA X and the Senior Officers above him; secondly, his wild allegations on the entire SAF Officer Corp based on his 'LIMITED' and 'LOCALISED' experience at his Unit level; third - the indiscretion made to gain wide attention to his very localised problems encountered.
Have you not realised that the SAF manner of handling complaints is no different from the ways complaints are handled by some Commercial Enterprise in the Civilian World ?
Similarly, how often have we heard of similar complaints from Singaporeans being stone-walled by Public Relation Managers from the Ministries to some of the complaints that we feel strongly about ? Ministers were also seen to cleverly skirt issues and give ''non-answers'' to important issues.
The SAF is no different from these Commercial Organisations and Government Ministries - except that the Officers of the SAF Units are [b]directly accountable for their positions, while the CEOs of Commerical Organisations and Ministers of Governments are seemingly 'unaccountable' to Singaporeans.
The manner in which Unit Commanders - (at Division, Brigade, Battalion, Company, Platoon or Section levels) - will satisfactorily respond to any situation must necessarly be influenced and dependant on a mix of personal qualities. Such qualities will need a mix of the best and highest levels of maturity, experience, character, conciousness - (presence of mind), conscience, personal flair, articulating skills, and the mysterious charisma of leadership - (and this list is not entirely comprehensive).
While I can emphatise with your frustrations, I cannot accept that your position and that of 2Lt Li is endemic in the SAF, as my encounters in four different SAF units were positively different, even when I had encountered middle ranking officers who are a pain in the back with their very personal manner of seeing jobs get done.
If the Singapore Operating Philosophy - of getting the job done first, no matter the cost to individual preferences (freedom) - is accepted to be the successful model for Singapore, it is no different in the SAF or that of any military.
Whatever state the SAF maybe that need a shake-up, it does not warrant the wild allegations in the statements made by 2Lt Li and it has nothing to do with a 'loss of face' as you have suggested.
The consequences of 2Lt allegations bring up many questions that concerns the quality of the SAF Leadership - and in turn the quality of the SAF - which has presented itself as the most technologically advanced military in this corner of the world populated by volatile and mercurial peoples that have different value system from us.
If the quality of the SAF Leadership is now suspect, the psychological deterrence in having a strong SAF will already lose its value.
Some mischevious elements in neighboring countries may wish to push the limits of 'military adventurism' to have a real test of our Political and Military Leadership and the will of Singaporeans.
If 2Lt Li had received the blessings from the First Family, and given space for his freedom of actions - to seemingly shake up the SAF - it will not be the first time that the First Family have made strategic mistakes in their fifty years in the seat of political authority.
[/b]
Rest assured that while your opinion of Li's view is that of a localised problem, the truth is that such 'oversight' is endemic throughout the SAF. Having gone through numerous postings myself, i have observed many junior officers who abused their powers, skived their way through appointments and have displayed negligence in their own duties. And many basically got away with it. Such allegations by Li are not wild; they can be verified by other officers who have experienced them firsthand. However, the fact that these are obviously not documented will prevent the actual number from being realised. Those serious enough are elevated to summary trial; the rest are either settled by lower charges or dismissed.
Handling complaints is an art, not simply a process. It is clear that some benign complaints should be dismissed outright, but cases that exhibit a lack of integrity should be further examined. Does a complaint where an officer went AWOL, lied to a superior officer and tried to implicate a fellow officer not reek of concern? Is it not serious enough to warrent further investigation? If the senior officers simply disregard the complaint, what message are they sending down - that an officer can break the rules and get away with it? I find this train of thought worrying.
What you say is true - the punishment metted out may not be satisfactory in the eyes of some, but the 'slap on the wrist' for LTA 'X' was surely disproportionate to his actions. Li compared it to managing a corporal against an officer. If a corporal went AWOL, it would surely be a charge and a quick drive to DB. If such disproportionate punishments are allowed to continue, how will the chain of command hold up to such lopsided favourism? Such actions may encourage the men to become more insurbordinate, and lacking in respect.
You say the "The consequences of (2LT Li's) allegations bring up many questions that concerns the quality of the SAF Leadership - and in turn the quality of the SAF ", and i say the quality of leadership is already of grave concern at the lower levels, nevermind the upper echelons.
Let's not allow the fact that it was the PM's son who made the complaint, distract us from the seriousness of the complaint itself. -
IÂ’m afraid I will have to disagree with Atobe this time round on the general quality of leadership in the SAF.
First and foremost IÂ’ve served my NS in the capacity of an infantry Non Commissioned Commander and through a series of rather bizarre circumstances (mostly due to the term cut causing a lack of specialists) found myself going through the several units such as Guards and NDP (sia kang party) before ending up as a BMTC instructor, and while there are good commanders that get the job done fairly and justly, the general atmosphere of commanders in the units I have been through well and truly give rise to the kind of faults that 2Lt Li spoke out against.
I canÂ’t say this for the rest of the SAF, but by experience and also what the grunts from other places say (just pop by military nuts), the general impression on the ground is that in terms of having the men, equipment and will to fight the SAF isnÂ’t such a slouch, but the weakest link would be that of the leadership.
And unfortunately, the SAF, with it’s reliance on elite scholar generals sometimes with more book smarts then battlefield smarts has led to a kind of structure that any person serving in HQ will realize as unnecessarily bureaucratic and cumbersome in terms of developing the vision of the ‘thinking soldier’ and the 3G army.
All this 3G stuff is impressive, but the grunt is probably far more worried about losing his stuff or being a walking 1206 waiting to happen then to use his equipment to the fullest of its ability. And lets not talk about the red tape for other kinds of things.
Not that all this red tape is bad, but an overtly by-the-book approach and a lack of emphasis on personal honour, soldiering pride and skills towards NS has fostered a kind of “get-away-with-it” attitude in many who take a more selfish approach towards their time in the military.
Case in point, if you read Generation Kill, you will realize the American Marines have a far greater respect for the personal judgement of the lower ranks, to the point which NCOs and enlisted dare to stand up to their incompetent officers or even demand a hearing when they feel that the leadership in question is questionable. You will never find this condition in the SAF currently.
Had this happened in the US Military, 2LT Li would certainly still be punished in some way or another, but I doubt his actions would be as scrutinized as being stupid or suchÂ… in fact there would probably be much soul-searching.
And if you ask me, soul-searching is needed. I for one, from my personal experiences and accounts from my friends who have been at the hand of both competent and incompetent leadership realize that the parts of the SAF we have seen (at the very least), require a serious shake up to restore justice and ethics among the troops.
Being self-critical may hurt for a while, but I do not think it will cause us the psychological edge. But going into battle deluded with unquestioning faith in your leadership that has done nothing to prove itself will be disastrous.
This is why the grunt trusts his Sergeant first before his PC, and the PC before the OC, and the OC before the CO. because the Sergeant is less prone to the wishful thinking and glory-snatching that comes up pushing little blocks that represent them around in the sandbox model.
I am not saying that we are screwed, but I think in terms of leadership the SAF requires some serious shaking up to separate the wheat from the chaff. If you do not believe it, just drop by the military nuts forums and there will be plenty of grunts willing to give you their own perspectives on leadership in the SAF. -
Ok, let me contribute some of my personal opinions and thinkings towards this saga.
Firstly, yes, it is true that SAF needs to deal with all those slack, unmotivated, refuse to work regulars that push their jobs to the NSF while they hide some where to sleep. I also laud 2nd LT Li for highlighting this issue to the public........BUT I seriously query the prudence and wisdom in CC it all over the SAF intranet all the way to the defense minister and the CDF. I believe this problem he face is a localised issue and that it can be settled within the four walls of the camp. If not, his next approach should be his CO or BDE CO things on that line. By CCing it all over the place, I really beg to question the real intentions of such an action. Bcos from what I see, this is no diferent from spamming or ah longs writing ur number all over the HDB void decks. By addressing the issue directly to the CDF or minister, I feel that he is abusing his position as a NSF whom has a father that is of high social, political influence, to coercive the SAF to bend to his desire. One must know that SAF is an instrument of war that is activated when the need arises, and it is politically neutral and fights for the freedom of it's ppls. The 2nd LT should not use the SAF as his own political arena to throw his weight around. For yrs, 'white horses' have been in the lime-light and a hot topic of debate, thus what he did, basically makes most SGreans feel disgusted and disdain towards the so called 'elite' of the society.
Besides, he should also as an officer know the importance of chain of command. In time of crisis, eg. a division goes to war, a proper chain of command is essential towards accurate, efficient flow of information from the sections all the way to the DIV. Just imagine the ground troops do not practise proper voice procedures, or they dun do the sitrep properly, the network will be all jammed up. So I think the 2nd LT should seriously learn how to respect the establishment, rather than make the establishment respect his wishes.............