PM's son charged & reprimaned
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continuation
I guess we have approached this 2Lt Li's saga from two different premises - with your position based on the situation that 2Lt Li saw that caused his ill considered initiative, which resulted in a scandalous generalising being made of the situation as he saw being a broad based culture amongst the senior SAF leadership.
Your statement: There are always alternative ways to do anything - even if we decide to positively follow the order, we could get it done as dictated or done in the best possible ways; or do something else is idealistic because when one is boxed into a corner, having exhausted all avenues, there may be no other options. WWII has seen many cases of officer fratricide, because their men would sooner kill their PC than be led to senseless slaughter.
Should those men be courtmartialled? Certainly, but is there any doubt that they probably saved more lives by their actions, despite being heinous? [/quote]
''Officer fraticide'' or ''sending men to unnecessary deaths or casualties'' are all chargeable offense of callous murder.
Officers are liable for their decisions made as already evidenced in the recent trials of two Navy officers who made the wrong decision to cross the path of another maritime vessel contrary to sound navigational rules or judgment, and resulted the deaths of four navy personnels.
AWOL is different from desertion - as desertion is a more severe offense than absence without leave based on the background motives considered; and with desertion being punishable by death - as required in the US Military.continue below
[quote]
At the end of the day, people make choices, and in the case of Li Hongyi, not everyone will agree his actions stemmed from a righteous act, but simply because he was in a significant position to do so. But like i mentioned earlier, it is the gist of his argument, not the manner it came across.
This scandalous allegation that formed the gist of 2Lt Li's arguments is as I have already shown to be erroneous in approach and in actual facts as is the basis of my stated position that is different from yours.
Due to 2Lt Li's lack of understanding to the prerogatives and lattitude of decision making by a Senior Commander, it had caused 2Lt Li to disagree and misunderstand the outcome of the Senior Commander's decision towards LTA X; and resulted in 2Lt Li making the wild and erroneous allegation that has blemished the SAF Officers - of which he is a brother member.
In my previous post, I had mentioned that since it was by the same Quality Control standards that was employed by OCS to have produced 2Lt Li, he should resign from his Commission as an SAF Officer, if he felt so strongly on the poor Quality Control employed by OCS to have produced the SAF Officers that he saw himself qualified enough to judge as misfits.
This would have neatly resolved any debate on his allegation and the manner in which he has made his serious allegations. -
I don't think an NS man can choose to resign or is there a need to in this case. There is no need to overreact cos even you make mistakes. Do you then resign for every mistake you make?
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The very existence of a "WH" (White Horse) stamp on your military docket already proves that, we are not equal in their eyes.
If everybody is equal, why should they have this "WH" status to differentiate between soldiers.
A charge leading to a reprimand? Lesser soldiers would have ended up in the detention barracks. -
The reason why there is a term white horse is because the people see it so, thats why the govt needed to deal with this issue by making sure that these wh do not get better treatment.
Yes, its a case where these WHs are being discriminated against cos they will surely end up in combat units. -
It's not only a term, I have seen military dockets stamped with "WH" before.Originally posted by Mat Toro:The reason why there is a term white horse is because the people see it so, thats why the govt needed to deal with this issue by making sure that these wh do not get better treatment.
Yes, its a case where these WHs are being discriminated against cos they will surely end up in combat units. -
In an earlier post, T-rex did mentioned that the ultra WH aka PM's son was not accorded favours but rather extra work.Originally posted by Mat Toro:The reason why there is a term white horse is because the people see it so, thats why the govt needed to deal with this issue by making sure that these wh do not get better treatment.
Yes, its a case where these WHs are being discriminated against cos they will surely end up in combat units. -
I have heard from friends, when Winston Choo's son was serving his NS, the maximum push ups was 10.
I wonder if anyone who was in his company can confirm that? -
Prior to LHL arrival at SAFTI OCS Wing, Coy B, one of the Platoon Commander and the Coy Commander were strict disciplinarian imposing extra-ordinary high standards on the Cadets.
The Platoons in Coy B were constantly subjected to frequent extra-short and sharp quick march drills with heavy packs and steel helmets in the then No 3 uniforms, and all this just before lunch in the infamous heat of Pasir Labar Camp at noon.
Most cadets lost weight as everyone literally had no stomach left for any food after an exerting one hour quick drill with no breaks during that hour long torture.
Another famed method of tormenting the cadets was the midnight change parade of stripping down to towels - all soaped, by the count of TEN, running up to wash and dry and get into uniform by the count of TWENTY, returning to strip into PT Kit at the count by the same count, and with each re-assembly some creative new tricks will be dreamed up for the next count. Any late comers that arrive after the count will subject the entire platoon for more treatment.
By the time when LHL joined SAFTI OCS Wing at Coy B, it was a smooth ride for all the three OCS Wings of Coy A, B, and C - with no brutal tormenting of midnight change parade or drills at noon.
The brutal Platoon Commander behaved like a church-mouse, his voice no longer heard, and his abusive methods unseen for the duration of LHL's stay at SAFTI.
Are there no preferential treatment ?
When anyone of us lesser being go for a Live Firing exercises at those infamous hills of Pasir Labar, the most senior officer present will probably be a Company Commander or his Deputy.
However, when any of the ''Super White Studs'' were involved in the Live Fire exercises, the Battalion Commander will be present as the supervising officer.
If there are no continuing preferential treatment, then all files should be stamped WH - then again, someone will use different color codes : White and Red Stripes for the ''Super Studs'' ? -
Originally posted by Mat Toro:
You cannot escape from NS obligations by resigning, but you can decline a commission or resign from your appointment if your reasons are found valid - and acceptable by the Higher Command.
I don't think an NS man can choose to resign or is there a need to in this case. There is no need to overreact cos even you make mistakes. Do you then resign for every mistake you make?
The mistake was not 2Lt Li's but he felt that the mistake was in the inadequacy of OCS not to identify Officers like LTA X, whom 2Lt Li felt is below his own standards of what an Officer should be.
2Lt Li questioned the Quality Control of OCS and felt that it had not done a proper job at recognising and removign such weak Officers at OCS, AND felt that the SAF is full of such officers as LTA X.
If OCS Quality Control is questionable, it had also produced an officer in 2Lt Li.
If 2Lt Li question the standards of OCS Quality Control, will it not also reflect the standards of 2Lt Li now - as shown in 2Lt Li's wild allegation and insubordination towards established MINDEF Standing Orders which he should have already been aware after his NOT so short term in the SAF ?
If 2Lt Li feel so strongly that OCS Quality Control is so poor to have produced such low quality officers, he should resign his commission and disassociate himself from the Officer Corp - as otherwise the blemish that he has made towards the Officer Corp will also stain himself.
I will be the first person to give him a ''high credibility star rating'' for putting the money where his mouth is. -
I see no reason why Li shld resign.
I think the mistake does not warrant resignation.
If he needs to be demoted, let SAF decide. He shld respect SAF decision, so shld we.
Do you need to resign for every mistake you made? -
By Atobe
It should be stressed that decisions that are clearly‘wrong’ should be questioned through the appropriate chain of command. I am technically not claiming that every decision should be questioned since such a blanket act will cause the whole system to collapse.
Whether in times of Peace or War, ''Decisions'' on disciplinary actions that are judged to be ''Good or Bad, Right or Wrong'' depends on the circumstances of the situation, and as I have previously stated, it is the prerogative of the Commanding Officer in his assessment of the circumstances to arrive at whatever decision he deems fit.
Should one question the validity of the decision made given the circumstances concluded by the Commanding Officer ?
In times of War, it becomes even more critical when shortage of manpower is made worst by the removal of personnels due to disciplinary actions, and this maybe an influencing factor for a Senior Commander to be more lenient than usual.
AWOL is a symptom to a problem and if it cannot be identified and resolved during Peace Time, it will spell big trouble during crisis.
Will strict adherence to military discipline resolved such issues ?
Will we not end up losing any remaining value in the offender by sending him to spend useless days in a ''super clean, cold and silent environment'' of a DB Centre, with useless hours in foot drills at odd hours of during hot days ?
Or should the circumstances of the AWOL offense be understood, and ''disciplinary corrective actions'' be instituted with appropriate ''psychological motivational help'' to recover the ''lost soul'' and bring him back to the cause of protecting the Little Red Dot ?
Note my qualified term - ''disciplinary corrective actions'' - will include 'psychological assistance' to help the offender to recover his position.
AWOL is a term that can be twisted to suit any imaginery situation as used by 2Lt Li.
However, in a combat situation when all officers are no longer around, and the defense of a position is already useless considering that the unit strength and capabilities are severely depleted to the last few men and ammunition against superior foces, should the remaining few ''withdraw without leave'' from their assigned position, regroup with any main force, or to sacrifice themselves uselessly to their end - and considered AWOL ?
In our present context, was LTA X on AWOL - a term that is liberally applied by 2Lt Li, who had used the term merely for its ''severe alarming impact'' and to serve his own ends ?
The circumstance surrounding the supposed AWOL by LTA X remains unknown, and it may turnout to be anything else but AWOL, to which the Senior Commander had felt more appropriate to have handled it in some other way as had happened.
Soldiers AWOL for a variety of reasons, and most culprits are fully aware that they are committing a military crime before they actually AWOL. Will psychiatric assistance help these people? Most patients with psychological conditions are unaware of their actions, or they simply believe what they are doing is right, despite reality. In this case, you have a perfectly sane soldier committing a deliberate act – corrective action is definitely required, but it remains to be seen how the psychological aspect can be achieved.
I totally agree that punishing a person because of what it says in a rulebook is as good as leading with your eyes closed – one is merely reacting to a problem and making no attempt at comprehension. Such acts will lead to repeat incidents and rehabilitation is better than punitive recourse.
But remember there are those who are immune to this route – rehabilitation does not work for these people. In these cases, punitive action should take centerstage. DB has its merits and we should not exaggerate their ‘sandbag drills and mindless footdrills’.
LTA ‘X’ clearly showed no remorse in his actions and it can be inferred that a lack of punitive action from superiors may have spurred him repeat the act.
Your following paragraph:
The circumstance surrounding the supposed AWOL by LTA X remains unknown, and it may turnout to be anything else but AWOL, to which the Senior Commander had felt more appropriate to have handled it in some other way as had happened.
suggests that you harbour suspicions Li Hongyi was in fact lying and spinning fiction to serve his own purpose. I find that difficult to believe, since he wrote this with an obvious understanding that it would permeate the public domain – every piece of information he has stated will be scrutinized, dissected and re-interpreted before his summary trial. Any attempt at grandiose exaggeration without backing of facts will smear his own integrity and therefore, by innuendo, that of the PM. It could surely lead to a military rebuke and decommissioning of his rank. -
-double post-
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By Atobe
Which is why I completely disagree that a 10 month course in OCS (perhaps it has been truncated further) is woefully insufficient to ‘commission’ a junior officer. Experience counts more than rank, and without the background to support your decision-making, a new kid wearing the 'Leader's Boots' will turn the ‘trial and error’ approach into a literal‘ big bull in a small china shop’.
Decision making is largely dependent on maturity, experience, empathy and a presence of mind of the decision maker to the status of the environment.
How can 'decision making skills' be imparted to any new kid wearing the 'Leader's Boots' for the first time?
Is there any computerise laboratory environment that provide real life situations for a decision making skills to be honed, and with the outcome gauged by the computer program - (much like scoring of a karaoke sound machine to the ability of a karaoke singer) ?
However, the graduate from such a computerised environment will still have to test out his skills in a Real World with many fluid situations.
Life is a ''Trial and Error'' laboratory itself.By Atobe
I assume your NS days were in the 1980s? Widespread abuse by appointment holders were significantly more rampant in those days. Which is why there are recurring flashbacks by many of us, who view the current crop of NS standards akin to a holiday camp with weapons. In those days, there was no such thing as ‘welfare’, no dunlop mattresses, and only the fighting fit cooks to prepare your dinner. 40 years on, we have certainly evolved as a unit, with a changed mindset on the needless ‘tekan’ sessions and hopefully better EQ to manage men over disciplinary matters.
During my NS, I have personally encountered mutiny on at least two occassions - once as a recruit, I noticed an operational company conducting a sit in at the Parade Square - in protest to the repeated training exercises that was insisted by the Company Commander, the Officers and the NCOs, with the extra training exercises being a form of disciplinary action that went on for about 36 hours.
The second mutiny was from a batch of fresh recruits - into their third month - collectively refusing to respond to a young NCO torment of ''change parade'' over four hours - for the most minor of offense in crap left unflushed in the toilet bowl.
Both incidences arose from poor communication and empathy by the immediate leadership towards those they were assigned to lead.
When more senior officers turned up at the scene, the matter was cleared, discipline restored with the orders executed, and the Junior Commanders - who were given private dressing down for the abuses of their misguided enthusiasm that blinded them to the condition of those whom they led.
This clearly showed that leadership require maturity and experience to have the presence of mind to judge the intangible atmosphere and the physical environment, PLUS the X-Factor Charisma in Leadership.I guess we have approached this 2Lt Li's saga from two different premises - with your position based on the situation that 2Lt Li saw that caused his ill considered initiative, which resulted in a scandalous generalising being made of the situation as he saw being a broad based culture amongst the senior SAF leadership.
I feel that any debate would have to stem from the crux of Li’s argument before scrutinizing his credibility and true intentions. I find much of your argument overshadowed by his being a member of the Lee family. To many including myself, this whole incident is more refreshing than ‘scandalous’, especially for those who have gone through the system and suffered similar incidents.
This scandolous allegation that formed the gist of 2Lt Li's arguments is as I have already shown to be erroneous in approach and in actual facts as is the basis of my stated position that is different from your.
Due to 2Lt Li's lack of understanding to the prerogatives and lattitude of decision making by a Senior Commander, it had caused 2Lt Li to disagree and misunderstand the outcome of the Senior Commander's decision towards LTA X, and resulted in 2Lt Li making the wild and erroneous allegation that has blemished the SAF Officers - of which he is a brother member.
In my previous post, I had mentioned that since it was by the same Quality Control standards that was employed by OCS to have produced 2Lt Li, he should resign from his Commission as an SAF Officer, if he felt so strongly on the poor Quality Control employed by OCS to have produced the SAF Officers that he saw himself qualified enough to judge as misfits.
This would have neatly resolved any debate on his allegation and the manner in which he has made his serious allegations.
Sacrificing your rank for the ‘greater good’ is not something that will create an impact in SG; people are more likely to label you ‘foolish’ and ‘naïve’ then consider such a move honourable. And lest we forget, it is a rank that Li has earned. Furthermore the implications of such a move will be questionable: the case may simply be covered up because it remains inside military circles. Li’s approach, though incorrect, has forced the SAF to take responsible action, and in so doing, it’s safe to say Li was willing to accept that punishment. -
Did 2LT Li Resign???Originally posted by Mat Toro:I see no reason why Li shld resign.
I think the mistake does not warrant resignation.
If he needs to be demoted, let SAF decide. He shld respect SAF decision, so shld we.
Do you need to resign for every mistake you made?
I think I support 2LT LI spiritually.
I hope he can win the system of a 1 sided officer shield officer case.
I mean it's a great victory for NSF if he can win.
However, I still hope he stays and fight this system.
=) -
Ney I am not for 2LT Li to resign (as if he could decide on such things at all) or pull any kind of stunt.
What's done is done.
And frankly I suspect a lot of us may be a lot easier on the soldier if we didn't know he was the PM's son. -
Agreed, although I think that most of us (Singaporeans) are already very easy on him. Frankly speaking, when I first read this thread, I thought a lot more people will come and condemn him solely because he is the son of LHL, but as the thread develops, it appears that only a few of us remain eagar to put him down simply because of his blood.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Ney I am not for 2LT Li to resign (as if he could decide on such things at all) or pull any kind of stunt.
What's done is done.
And frankly I suspect a lot of us may be a lot easier on the soldier if we didn't know he was the PM's son. -
My apologies for not keeping the momentum going in this thread as other prior commitments had taken me away to a wireless world of peace and tranquility.
Originally posted by BillyBong:
In the Military Environment, I am not sure if there are any opportunities for any clearly ''wrong'' decisions to be questioned - even if one has to go through formal or informal channels up the chain of command.
It should be stressed that decisions that are clearly‘wrong’ should be questioned through the appropriate chain of command. I am technically not claiming that every decision should be questioned since such a blanket act will cause the whole system to collapse. [/b]
What constitute ''Right or Wrong'' depends very much on the available information that one has before making such a call, or else basing on one's experiences, moral values, and perceptions - and during crisis, there may not be the luxury of time for complaints to be made.
At each level of the military command structure, each level may not see the big picture that the other higher level is seeing, and what one sees at the lower end may seem wrong and foolhardy, which may turn out to be the winning stroke that will save lives.
Think of General Sharon decision to cross the Suez Canal onto the Egyptian side during the height of the Yom Kippur War, when Israel was pushed back into the Sinai Peninsula by a surprise Egyptian attack. General Sharon's bold and seemingly foolhardy decision to cross the Suez had stretched his logistics lines to the limit, but had in turn outflank and cut off the entire Egyptian invasion force and altered the tide of history, which would otherwise have been different, with more Israeli lives lost in a longer Sinai campaign.
Think also of General MacArthur's bold plan to outflank the North Korean Armies by making a sea borne landing of a massive force at Inchon - that was largely seen by some to be wrong, given the limited resource and tight situation when the North Korean armies had pushed the ROK forces to the last southern toe-hold portion of South Korea.
Clearly wrong decisions or military orders will largely have to do with moral issues of ''Right and Wrong'' - as in an order to shoot unarmed civilians, or to have an entire platoon beat up a platoon mate as part of disciplinary procedures.
If someone point a gun at your head, and force you to pull the trigger with another gun, you should be absolved of murder, as you were forced by your predicament of either shoot, or be shot yourself. You will become no more then an extension of the person giving the order, and threatening your own life with either a real or fake gun.
The sandbag drills and mindless footdrills are not exaggeration, and until you visit a detainee in DB, and see first hand the regimented routine observed - which are more stringent than the Singapore Prison standards - you should not believe that these are exaggeration.
Soldiers AWOL for a variety of reasons, and most culprits are fully aware that they are committing a military crime before they actually AWOL. Will psychiatric assistance help these people? Most patients with psychological conditions are unaware of their actions, or they simply believe what they are doing is right, despite reality. In this case, you have a perfectly sane soldier committing a deliberate act – corrective action is definitely required, but it remains to be seen how the psychological aspect can be achieved.
I totally agree that punishing a person because of what it says in a rulebook is as good as leading with your eyes closed – one is merely reacting to a problem and making no attempt at comprehension. Such acts will lead to repeat incidents and rehabilitation is better than punitive recourse.
But remember there are those who are immune to this route – rehabilitation does not work for these people. In these cases, punitive action should take centerstage. DB has its merits and we should not exaggerate their ‘sandbag drills and mindless footdrills’.
''Psychiatry'' should not be confused with ''Psychology''.
Is AWOL a symptom of some mental health problem, or one of motivational behaviour ?
If it is a mental health problem that the soldier persist in repeated AWOL then he should not be punished, as he should not even be enlisted into NS; but should have been treated by a Psychiatrist at the Singapore Institute of Mental Health.
I will not recommend to have an insane person or one with mental health problems holding a gun near anyone - least of all near you and I.
However, if AWOL is part of a behaviorial problem, one with a poor psychological grasp of values and responsibilities - either a psychiatrist or a psychologies can attend to alter or modify such behaviorial problems.
Unfortunately, the Singapore Prison system has already proven that their age old method similar to Military DB has not been able to correct behaviorial problems, and have made hardened criminals out of normal civilians with some innate psychological or psychiatric problems.
Fortunately, in this 21st Century, we are seeing a change in the Singapore Prison approaches in rehabilitating those convicted of various crimes, to ensure that they will not return to Prison, but to contribute to society.
Can the SAF also take a leaf from the Singapore Prison system ?
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Without even the minimal but necessary superficial information of LTA X reasons or causes for his repeated absence - I will not even use the term AWOL, which is more ominous - but I am left with the hard facts of what I see in 2Lt Li's inexcusable actions.
LTA ‘X’ clearly showed no remorse in his actions and it can be inferred that a lack of punitive action from superiors may have spurred him repeat the act.
Your following paragraph:
The circumstance surrounding the supposed AWOL by LTA X remains unknown, and it may turnout to be anything else but AWOL, to which the Senior Commander had felt more appropriate to have handled it in some other way as had happened.
suggests that you harbour suspicions Li Hongyi was in fact lying and spinning fiction to serve his own purpose. I find that difficult to believe, since he wrote this with an obvious understanding that it would permeate the public domain – every piece of information he has stated will be scrutinized, dissected and re-interpreted before his summary trial. Any attempt at grandiose exaggeration without backing of facts will smear his own integrity and therefore, by innuendo, that of the PM. It could surely lead to a military rebuke and decommissioning of his rank.
2Lt Li had so many options - least of all to confide in his own parents, who will have a direct handle in a less public manner.
There are only two possible reasons for 2Lt Li's present actions, which I had mentioned in my previous responses in this thread and it will bear repeating.
Firstly, that 2Lt Li had approached his parents, but was left to handle it on his own, as a test of his ability to handle this matter that is seen to be of some public interest; and in the process a feather in his cap to crow about for his possible political career. Secondly, that no consultation was made with his parents, as he decide to resolve the matter in any way that he deem fit, as could be seen in the present outcome that it was ill-advised.
With regards to the crux of the matter in his letter that largely dealt with LTA X's penchant for absenting himself from duty, we are left to judge 2Lt Li's credibility from the wild allegations made against his Senior Commander's handling of LTA X, and extending his spurrous judgement to blemish the SAF methodology of selecting officers.
Such expressed views from a 2Lt is obviously made from one with a less discerning mind, and will probably confirm your statement of the inability of young officers to judge and also liken to your proverbial ''bull in a small china shop'' - as seen in 2Lt wide circulation to all and sundry and to his hitting out at so many target organisation in the SAF.
Can his judgement of LTA X AWOL be of any accuracy when the remaining allegations made were baseless - (as we have already determined in recent posts made) ?
We can only speculate that 2Lt Li had some personal friction with LTA X that went totally balistic - as is so common in some personal rivalries amongst Officers in any Military, and even in the Civilian World - and 2Lt Li was simply out to ''FIX'' LTA X, and managed to find the weakest link in LTA X conduct to nail LTA X publicly with total disregard to his own exposure to any SAF retributions.
In the forty years of SAF History, Officers have yet to be decommissioned for such an effort, court martialled for insubordination - yes; and with 2Lt Li's lineagage, both will seem even more unlikely. -
When National Service was first implemented it was 2 years for NSF ranked Privates to Sergeants, and 3 years for NSF Officers.Originally posted by BillyBong:
By Atobe
Decision making is largely dependent on maturity, experience, empathy and a presence of mind of the decision maker to the status of the environment.
How can 'decision making skills' be imparted to any new kid wearing the 'Leader's Boots' for the first time?
Is there any computerise laboratory environment that provide real life situations for a decision making skills to be honed, and with the outcome gauged by the computer program - (much like scoring of a karaoke sound machine to the ability of a karaoke singer) ?
However, the graduate from such a computerised environment will still have to test out his skills in a Real World with many fluid situations.
Life is a ''Trial and Error'' laboratory itself.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is why I completely disagree that a 10 month course in OCS (perhaps it has been truncated further) is woefully insufficient to ‘commission’ a junior officer. Experience counts more than rank, and without the background to support your decision-making, a new kid wearing the 'Leader's Boots' will turn the ‘trial and error’ approach into a literal‘ big bull in a small china shop’.
Sometime in the 1990s, the National Service Full Time period for Officers and SGTs was changed to 2 years and 6 months, and from late 2005 - it was further reduced to 2 years 3 months.
With all the Basic Infantry, SISPEC and OCS courses to attend, and with the specialist trainings that one is to get, are there enough time for a thorough training - similar to the more advanced and Professional Militaries of UK, USA and some major European Countries ?
I believe that with our National Service Concept in which all Singaporean Males are subject to enlistment, it will require the training and accumulation of experience to be on-going through the various 5 year cycle till one reach 45 years for other ranks, and 50 years for Officers.
The reason for such continuously high tempo of intensive military exercises for Reservists is to hone the skills and provide the closest realistic war or crisis environment as is possible - so as to provide the opportunity to learn.
Since the first day of NS in 1967, widespread abuse by appointment holders remain till this day.By Atobe
During my NS, I have personally encountered mutiny on at least two occassions - once as a recruit, I noticed an operational company conducting a sit in at the Parade Square - in protest to the repeated training exercises that was insisted by the Company Commander, the Officers and the NCOs, with the extra training exercises being a form of disciplinary action that went on for about 36 hours.
The second mutiny was from a batch of fresh recruits - into their third month - collectively refusing to respond to a young NCO torment of ''change parade'' over four hours - for the most minor of offense in crap left unflushed in the toilet bowl.
Both incidences arose from poor communication and empathy by the immediate leadership towards those they were assigned to lead.
When more senior officers turned up at the scene, the matter was cleared, discipline restored with the orders executed, and the Junior Commanders - who were given private dressing down for the abuses of their misguided enthusiasm that blinded them to the condition of those whom they led.
This clearly showed that leadership require maturity and experience to have the presence of mind to judge the intangible atmosphere and the physical environment, PLUS the X-Factor Charisma in Leadership.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I assume your NS days were in the 1980s? Widespread abuse by appointment holders were significantly more rampant in those days. Which is why there are recurring flashbacks by many of us, who view the current crop of NS standards akin to a holiday camp with weapons. In those days, there was no such thing as ‘welfare’, no dunlop mattresses, and only the fighting fit cooks to prepare your dinner. 40 years on, we have certainly evolved as a unit, with a changed mindset on the needless ‘tekan’ sessions and hopefully better EQ to manage men over disciplinary matters.
SBMT at Nee Soon Camp and Pulau Tekong are the most notorious in handling fresh recruits despite the many supposed updated changes in the manner that punishments are sanctioned.
Suffice to say that I have on two occassions wrote to MINDEF and even telephoned the Base Commanding Officers about the rampant physical and psychological abuse that were creatively designed by those wearing the ranks from 3rd SGT to a Captain - who is supposedly the Company OC himself.
I had better respect for the first batch trained by the Israelis, who will torment those being trained but always gave the reasons for doing so, and were compassionate when the soldier is genuinely fatigued.
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Unfortunately, the debate could have proceeded in a more positive manner if we have more information concerning the positions of LTA X and the Senior Commander - both of whom were accused in 2Lt Li's ill considered and widely publicised email, that also blasted the OCS Quality Control methods in selecting SAF Officers.I guess we have approached this 2Lt Li's saga from two different premises - with your position based on the situation that 2Lt Li saw that caused his ill considered initiative, which resulted in a scandalous generalising being made of the situation as he saw being a broad based culture amongst the senior SAF leadership.
This scandolous allegation that formed the gist of 2Lt Li's arguments is as I have already shown to be erroneous in approach and in actual facts as is the basis of my stated position that is different from your.
Due to 2Lt Li's lack of understanding to the prerogatives and lattitude of decision making by a Senior Commander, it had caused 2Lt Li to disagree and misunderstand the outcome of the Senior Commander's decision towards LTA X, and resulted in 2Lt Li making the wild and erroneous allegation that has blemished the SAF Officers - of which he is a brother member.
In my previous post, I had mentioned that since it was by the same Quality Control standards that was employed by OCS to have produced 2Lt Li, he should resign from his Commission as an SAF Officer, if he felt so strongly on the poor Quality Control employed by OCS to have produced the SAF Officers that he saw himself qualified enough to judge as misfits.
This would have neatly resolved any debate on his allegation and the manner in which he has made his serious allegations.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I feel that any debate would have to stem from the crux of Li’s argument before scrutinizing his credibility and true intentions. I find much of your argument overshadowed by his being a member of the Lee family. To many including myself, this whole incident is more refreshing than ‘scandalous’, especially for those who have gone through the system and suffered similar incidents.
Can we escape the fact about 2Lt Li's background ?
His supreme background was probably the cause that gave him the courage to be impetuous, and daring to be even insolent towards the entire SAF Heirachy.
Can we ignore this fact, when 2Lt Li had shown such brazen daring that is uncommon in any 2Lt in the entire 40 year history of the SAF.
One can even say that he has made his history by his infamous actions.
Part of the Mentor's hand at work ?Sacrificing your rank for the ‘greater good’ is not something that will create an impact in SG; people are more likely to label you ‘foolish’ and ‘naïve’ then consider such a move honourable. And lest we forget, it is a rank that Li has earned. Furthermore the implications of such a move will be questionable: the case may simply be covered up because it remains inside military circles. Li’s approach, though incorrect, has forced the SAF to take responsible action, and in so doing, it’s safe to say Li was willing to accept that punishment.
During my NSF days, some found blessed relief at being demoted, others were thankful to the extreme of having MINDEF rescinding their misguided decision to sign a contract that bind them permanently to the SAF - ''till death do us part''.
Did 2Lt Li earned the Officer Commission, or was it awarded to him as a recognition to his supposed leadership quality ?
Is this award not from an OCS system which he had accused of being suspect in its Quality Control standards in selecting Officers ?
Why will 2Lt Li want to associate himself with Officers whom he despised for their poor standards and accepted by OCS ?
If he is willing to cast such blasphemeous aspersions to an SAF Institution - that is proudly held in high esteem by so many others - Singaporeans as well as from Other Countries, all of whom have passed through its gates - then as a matter of principle, 2Lt Li should assert his credibility to his strong allegations of OCS weak Quality Control Standards, by offering to resign from his Commission. -
One can resign from one's Commission as an Officer - and MINDEF will investigate your reasons for doing so.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Ney I am not for 2LT Li to resign (as if he could decide on such things at all) or pull any kind of stunt.
What's done is done.
And frankly I suspect a lot of us may be a lot easier on the soldier if we didn't know he was the PM's son.
If your reasons are found to be valid your resignation maybe accepted - however, you may have to reimburse MINDEF for all the costs of training incurred during your time at OCS.
Yes, what's done is done - but there are lessons to draw from this ill considered episode in which the good name of a SAF Institution had been blemished by the undiscerning allegations made by a young 2Lt, and worst still for the wide publicity that he had caused.
When I first read the letter, I could not associate 2Lt Li with the LEE family but was already upset at the atrocious manner that an SAF Officer should attack another SAF Officer in such a brazen and public manner.
This has nothing to do with the supposed culture of SAF Officers protecting their own kind, but for the damage it does to the SAF reputation as an effective Force, when its leadership quality is now suspect.
The fact that 2Lt Li is now known to be associated with the LEE Family makes his actions even more reprehensible considering the supposed ''jaded intelligent qualities'' that is supposed to reside in that Family Name - and given so much recognition, respect and credibility.
If the widely respected Singapore First Family opinion is not worth anything, should we consider 2Lt Li's opinion about the SAF Officers Quality to be hollow too ?
If our potential enemies see it in the same light then we have nothing to worry.
However, if our potential enemies give as much credibility to the LEE Family as their other Friends have given, then surely 2Lt Li's claims of weak Quality Control of producing SAF Officers by OCS is to be considered seriously - and opening the window of opportunity to hit at Singapore ?
This will throw a spanner into the gearbox of a highly honed SAF, and cast heavy suspicion on the SAF Leadership Quality to lead.
Can the SAF Military be strong when 2Lt Li has claimed that the SAF Leadership Corp is weak ? -
A new BG is in the making
A new Minister of Defence 20 years from now
A potential PM perhaps
No amount of voluminous, vehement and vindictive messages will change this.
So save your ink (or keystroke) for something more constructive.
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The rest of the Coy mates must have been sent back for more realistic training after all of them were commissioned as officers.Originally posted by Atobe:Prior to LHL arrival at SAFTI OCS Wing, Coy B, one of the Platoon Commander and the Coy Commander were strict disciplinarian imposing extra-ordinary high standards on the Cadets.
The Platoons in Coy B were constantly subjected to frequent extra-short and sharp quick march drills with heavy packs and steel helmets in the then No 3 uniforms, and all this just before lunch in the infamous heat of Pasir Labar Camp at noon.
Most cadets lost weight as everyone literally had no stomach left for any food after an exerting one hour quick drill with no breaks during that hour long torture.
Another famed method of tormenting the cadets was the midnight change parade of stripping down to towels - all soaped, by the count of TEN, running up to wash and dry and get into uniform by the count of TWENTY, returning to strip into PT Kit at the count by the same count, and with each re-assembly some creative new tricks will be dreamed up for the next count. Any late comers that arrive after the count will subject the entire platoon for more treatment.
By the time when LHL joined SAFTI OCS Wing at Coy B, it was a smooth ride for all the three OCS Wings of Coy A, B, and C - with no brutal tormenting of midnight change parade or drills at noon.
The brutal Platoon Commander behaved like a church-mouse, his voice no longer heard, and his abusive methods unseen for the duration of LHL's stay at SAFTI.
Are there no preferential treatment ?
When anyone of us lesser being go for a Live Firing exercises at those infamous hills of Pasir Labar, the most senior officer present will probably be a Company Commander or his Deputy.
However, when any of the ''Super White Studs'' were involved in the Live Fire exercises, the Battalion Commander will be present as the supervising officer.
If there are no continuing preferential treatment, then all files should be stamped WH - then again, someone will use different color codes : White and Red Stripes for the ''Super Studs'' ?
Nothing is more dangerous in war than to rely upon peace training such as midnight change parade or drills at noon. This kind of training is already out of date. -
change parade makes for good discipline and esprit de corp. It really binded my platoon together.
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some platoons deserved change parade because there didn't work as a team, and some platoons are plates of scattered sand even pasa malam could not mind them together.Originally posted by Mat Toro:change parade makes for good discipline and esprit de corp. It really binded my platoon together.
Was change parade a punishment or a training to you?