SAF does not lack technology what is lacking is heartware...
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Nowadays the weapons and equipment that the SAF have been using is much more superior to the other countries surrounding Singapore. Examples: Bionix,SAR-21,submarines,F-16C/D,Spike....
However its the men behing these weapons which make the difference! The morale and the training standards have declined from the early days.Our soldiers could have done better by taking training in a more positive manner. This is my personal observations. Please comment,Thanks
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Serious speaking what you say is true. Singapore is really lacking in heartware.
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Serious speaking what you say is true. Singapore is really lacking in heartware.
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try feeling the same way the day u are finally called upon to do the deed...
seriously! nobody expects every single reservist to feel "on" 24-7...
you mean to tell me you yourselves are super on every ICT? please lah... people have moods...
u won't feel the same the day u realise that u either stand and fight or kneel and die. -
well said cx
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What happen if you are only given two choices. One: fight to the death. Two: surrender and torture to death.Originally posted by CX:u won't feel the same the day u realise that u either stand and fight or kneel and die.
Remember World War Two The Japanese
What would be your answer. I'm curious. There is no third option.
No Flaming Please. -
The morale and fitness of the soldiers are still the same since the beginning of time when SAF is formed. What I felt is that the training standards had slacken over the past year.
During my time as a recce element, we were taught the "lalang" method of trap detection....ask the new age soldiers now, how many of them know or even heard of it? lost skillz I presume. There are many more examples but i won't go into them here......
read my "has training slacken?" topic a few pages a way.... -
Of course fight lah! crazy... u wanna surrender and let them clip electrodes to your balls?Originally posted by want to know:What happen if you are only given two choices. One: fight to the death. Two: surrender and torture to death.
Remember World War Two The Japanese
What would be your answer. I'm curious. There is no third option.
No Flaming Please.
thats exactly what i mean man! u say we lack heartware... i disagree because there is a time and place for everything! u cannot succeed in evoking THAT kind on feelings on slack reservists on ICT... u'll be laughed out of the camp!
even israel shows signs of getting tired even though their survival literally depends on it.
so let me ask u again: are u super ON for every ICT? do you enthusiastically rush to every mobilization exercise with a great sense of purpose?
i'll be honest here... i don't. I think its a pain and a hassle but i go anyway, like the hundreds of other people just like me. call it a sense of duty or call it lan-lan... we just do. -
Well said CX. Like him..........I for one will not be the first to volunteer for reservist training....in fact I would rather mindef forget my tiny existence........but it's the sense of duty that when I'm called, I'll go.....Originally posted by CX:Of course fight lah! crazy... u wanna surrender and let them clip electrodes to your balls?
thats exactly what i mean man! u say we lack heartware... i disagree because there is a time and place for everything! u cannot succeed in evoking THAT kind on feelings on slack reservists on ICT... u'll be laughed out of the camp!
even israel shows signs of getting tired even though their survival literally depends on it.
so let me ask u again: are u super ON for every ICT? do you enthusiastically rush to every mobilization exercise with a great sense of purpose?
i'll be honest here... i don't. I think its a pain and a hassle but i go anyway, like the hundreds of other people just like me. call it a sense of duty or call it lan-lan... we just do.
Besides.....it'll be quite "adventurous" to for to field once awhile after been buried with shit work in the office for months. -
Gentlemen,thanks for your comments.Well you guys have touch on the Reservist side but I wish to know how people felt when they are NSF. Preferably from those who are currently still serving. I can understand the lack of intrest after u ORD, but what about those NSFs? Do they have the same mentality? Please comment.Thanks
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I'm a NSF. What I feel is that our NS liability is just too painstakingly long. You cannot expect us to feel 'on' continually for 2 or 2 1/2 years. Life now revolve more around having fun and enjoying yourselves than 30 years ago. NS will just naturally seem to be draggy and boring as more time passes by so likewise our morale will also decline. But I'm sure in the end everybody would have profitted to a certain extent from their own individual NS experience.Originally posted by tankee1981:Gentlemen,thanks for your comments.Well you guys have touch on the Reservist side but I wish to know how people felt when they are NSF. Preferably from those who are currently still serving. I can understand the lack of intrest after u ORD, but what about those NSFs? Do they have the same mentality? Please comment.Thanks -
its the same lah... i didn't enjoy every minute of it when i was in there, but i did the deed when i had to, when i was called to... u either take training seriously or get to do it all over again on a saturday afternoonOriginally posted by tankee1981:Gentlemen,thanks for your comments.Well you guys have touch on the Reservist side but I wish to know how people felt when they are NSF. Preferably from those who are currently still serving. I can understand the lack of intrest after u ORD, but what about those NSFs? Do they have the same mentality? Please comment.Thanks
yes, we're not exactly motivated as a result of pride, duty, honour or country, but self interest and i frankly do not see anything wrong with that.
we are NOT being trained to be indoctrinated nazi storm troopers... that is not the point cos u just end up making psycho tar-heads who cannot integrate back into the society...
citizen soldiers are meant to be different from ideologically motivated psychos. -
Travey's quite right. For me, I felt that "decline in morale" about 4 to 5 months before ORD. that's what they called the "ORD mood".Originally posted by Travey:I'm a NSF. What I feel is that our NS liability is just too painstakingly long. You cannot expect us to feel 'on' continually for 2 or 2 1/2 years. Life now revolve more around having fun and enjoying yourselves than 30 years ago. NS will just naturally seem to be draggy and boring as more time passes by so likewise our morale will also decline. But I'm sure in the end everybody would have profitted to a certain extent from their own individual NS experience. -
When you are an NSF, it is understandable you feel that it's too long. But if you cut down much further....it will be no point.Originally posted by Travey:I'm a NSF. What I feel is that our NS liability is just too painstakingly long. You cannot expect us to feel 'on' continually for 2 or 2 1/2 years. Life now revolve more around having fun and enjoying yourselves than 30 years ago. NS will just naturally seem to be draggy and boring as more time passes by so likewise our morale will also decline. But I'm sure in the end everybody would have profitted to a certain extent from their own individual NS experience.
Troops need time to train, to build up their skills, proficency, and learn how to operate as a unit. Experience takes time to gain, is not gained overnight. Excerises need to be repeated often enough, until it becomes second nature, so that in wartime, you can do it without thought. Example unjamming your weapon.
True...nobody expects you to feel on always...and yes...training is boring....and usually no fun. But it is not meant to be an amusement theme park. I myself dun really look forward to my IPPT, but I know is necessary to force us to keep fit.
Morale of soldiers is something hard to measure in peacetime. When SG is threatened, and your family and friends lifes are at stake.....it's a totally different ballgame. -
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heartware..... hmmm..... its kind of a difficult to generate that heartware in singapore because nationalism has been suppressed by the govt so much that it really do not exist.... so much so... people dont pretty much bother if you can sing the national athem, recite the plege or conduct watever nationalistic activities...Originally posted by tankee1981:Nowadays the weapons and equipment that the SAF have been using is much more superior to the other countries surrounding Singapore. Examples: Bionix,SAR-21,submarines,F-16C/D,Spike....
However its the men behing these weapons which make the difference! The morale and the training standards have declined from the early days.Our soldiers could have done better by taking training in a more positive manner. This is my personal observations. Please comment,Thanks
In singapore... the successful implementation of a global economy plus a highly educated populations has resulted in high mobility of its citizens.... this has resulted in a trend, where these people begins to see themselves as global citizens rather than a citizen of a particular piece of land...
The govt's fear that nationalism will lead to isolationism and/or protectionalism... resulted in a govt constantly extorting singaporeans to be accepting to FT and watever gibberish... that ultimately demoralise the local population... if put to the people inappropriately and without sensitivities...
The biggest problem is.... THE govt said... (they always love to say this) THAT WAT you cannot defend... dont belong to YOU.....
My reply is.... with all these FTs and globilizations.... WAT IS THERE REALLY IN SINGAPORE THAT TRUELY BELONGS TO ME... THAT I AM GONNA BE WILLING TO DIE FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE!!??? the changi airport? the PSA? the MAS? the bukit timah hill? ....... blah blah blah........ are they mine? i dont think so....... I dont own SIA, NOL, CT, ST, Singtel and blah blah blah..... i am just a simple folk eekiing out a living....
ALL i have is my cheap life.... thus unless the war is forced upon me.... as a result i fought for the right to LIVE.... i seriously think its stupid to fight for something materialistic .... for something that i OWN... knowning damn well that in war... most of them would have probably gone up in smoke... or in the event should i be killed... they becomes worthless to me....(a dead man lah)....
SO..... the latest SAF call... is in my view... shallow, lack of imagination, unrealistic, stupid and by all measure... a dumb dumb idiotic pile of bullshitting.... another way to put it.... SAF must really think i am so stupid and idiotic that they can bullshit on my face!.. or probably all singaporeans' face..... since its meant for public consumption....
I FIGHT for my right to LIVE.... my Families right to LIVE... my friends right to LIVE... OUR freedom... OUR dignity... OUR self-esteem... OUR future... and for the sake of OUR childrens.... TO BUILD THEIR FUTURE ON THIS LAND... called mother SINGAPORE!...
Never mind if during the war... PSA, SIA or even bukit timah hill goes up in smoke.... those can be rebuild as long as WE WIN...
The govt can keep their wealth and watever treasures THEY OWN.... they love so much.... To me... only LIVEs... are truely.... priceless... we are SOLDIERS.. NOT GOD DAMMED FUCKING MERCENARIES FIGHTING FOR MONEY!... SAF should give us some respect!
i feel that the true motivation to fight is... LOVE, DUTY and CONSCIENCE.... nothing else matters.... -
this is the effect of globalisation, u will soon lose ur identity of a country sooner or later
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Well I guess some people just don't feel that Singapore is worth fighting for. Until they see buildings go up in smoke, and people dying. Then they will realise, they COULD have done something to perhaps prevent it.
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oh no... and now we talk about the "N" word...
wouldn't be a bad direction to explore if people had an idea of WHAT it is...Originally posted by tripwire:
nationalism has not been suppressed because there is none to begin with. there is no nationalism, no national identity here. what they are trying to do, is to implement (invent?) a civic nationalism that encompasses all "race, language and religion".
heartware..... hmmm..... its kind of a difficult to generate that heartware in singapore because nationalism has been suppressed by the govt so much that it really do not exist.... so much so... people dont pretty much bother if you can sing the national athem, recite the plege or conduct watever nationalistic activities...
that fact that people don't bother with the rituals of nationalism just shows that the gov't initiative has not worked the way they intendedIn singapore... the successful implementation of a global economy plus a highly educated populations has resulted in high mobility of its citizens.... this has resulted in a trend, where these people begins to see themselves as global citizens rather than a citizen of a particular piece of land...
social mobility is THE pre-requisite of any forms of nationalism. think: French Revolution.
when culture is used to identify the population in terms if a vertical stratum, it cannot be used at the same time to demarcate a horizontal boundary.
when u identify yourself as Lord your place is within your realm and u relate only to your patrons/clients of the same stratum. when u identify yourself a serf, your place is the land and your lord's realm. you feel only for your fellow serfs.
its not the same in a nation state. the vertical stratums are flattenned and everyone elevated to the level of "citizens".The govt's fear that nationalism will lead to isolationism and/or protectionalism... resulted in a govt constantly extorting singaporeans to be accepting to FT and watever gibberish... that ultimately demoralise the local population... if put to the people inappropriately and without sensitivities...
again, accepting FT is one of the characteristics of a civic nation. u do not need to be born here, but u can join the club if u swear allegiance and contribute to it. Thomas Jefferson was offered honourary French citizenship after the French Revolution. (i don't think he even spoke the language...)
the people don't like it precisely because their conception of nationalism is beginning to move closer towards the other extreme: the ethnic nation. u're not born here, u don't belong here. they fail to see the irony of it: what makes a singaporean? aren't we all descendants of immigrants? (exception: malays)
globalization can actually reinforce national identity rather than erode it. people need roots and places to belong to. the global citizen in my opinion, is nonsense. its a self serving image. nobody else sees u as that and welcomes u as a result.
with the domination of a globalized (american) culture, people would feel the need to assert and claim that part of culture that is uniquely theirs so that it does not become part of the global mush and so that others would not be able to appropriate it. (Russel Crowe, Gladiator... isn't it interesting how americans appropriate ancient rome...)
you have no idea of the flurry of activities the italians went through after that to "reclaim" their heritage...
but its always been identity crises that leads forges identity.... so the more confused Singaporeans are, the better because it will just forge a stronger identity when they resolve the conflicts within. -
After reading the above posts, I can roughly sum up the mentality of the soldiers in Singapore. There is little or no sense of belonging to our country and the people will only take SAF seriously when there is a serious external threat. Although this is not an optimum scenerio but sadly this is the real world. So is there any way to increase the nationalism of Singapore? To give the heartware which Singaporeans so badly needed. Personally speaking I don't have a great sense of pride to be Singaporean like the people in other countries.What are your views,please comment. Thanks
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Originally posted by tankee1981:
well, in this time and age, its not as easy as before to fool people into believing that they are a nation because of a shared history and a common destiny.
So is there any way to increase the nationalism of Singapore? To give the heartware which Singaporeans so badly needed.
but u want a stronger national identity? open pandora's box...
u elevate the cult of the nation over the performance legitimacy of the PAP. (some have tried but nobody listened...)
its pretty obvious. u detach the nation from the party and u have a stronger national identity because u don't have to like the gov't to love the nation. -
simple..........Originally posted by tankee1981:After reading the above posts, I can roughly sum up the mentality of the soldiers in Singapore. There is little or no sense of belonging to our country and the people will only take SAF seriously when there is a serious external threat. Although this is not an optimum scenerio but sadly this is the real world. So is there any way to increase the nationalism of Singapore? To give the heartware which Singaporeans so badly needed. Personally speaking I don't have a great sense of pride to be Singaporean like the people in other countries.What are your views,please comment. Thanks
all you need is a leader..... that LOVES the people.... CARES for the PEOPLE... THINK for the people... ACTs for the people... and if called upon... to DIE for the people....
The leader must also be wise, intelligient, perceptives, courageous and humble at the same time...
In return... the people will look up to the leader... place their trust, future and their very lives in his hand....
as SUN TZU said.... the soldiers function is to win wars... The leaders function is to win HEARTS....
the problem with singapore system is that... our govt runs the nation like a corporation.... where the individuals productivity, efficiency and cost factors outweight the individuals loyalty, love, commitment, bonding and sacrifice to the 'company'....
its efficient.... but COLD....
In singapore... it pays to be a talents.... especially a FT... it doesnt pay to die in service for the country... an FT... with some dubious educational papers come to singapore with red carpets laid before him and get paid by the tons.... while a NSF who die in service gets a cheap coffin and a miserable compensation amounting to less then 10 percent of the pay the govt gives to 'TOP FTs'
With the over succesful govt stop at 2 policies in the past... many families in singapore nowadays consist of small isolated family units with a general lost in terms of connections and cohesions.... so much so... the bondings... the sense of security... the sense of roots and belongings which is usually formed through communications and contacts between relatives is weakened significantly.... -
That's so very true...When I say I think PAP is the shit, I don't mean I hate living in Singapore. In other words, if I say I'm proud to be a Singaporean but think the government is too sensitive and faultfinding, then many people will start thinking I'm a fool contradicting himself.Originally posted by CX:well, in this time and age, its not as easy as before to fool people into believing that they are a nation because of a shared history and a common destiny.
but u want a stronger national identity? open pandora's box...
u elevate the cult of the nation over the performance legitimacy of the PAP. (some have tried but nobody listened...)
its pretty obvious. u detach the nation from the party and u have a stronger national identity because u don't have to like the gov't to love the nation.
In America, many Americans doesn't think much of Bush, but still their sense of loyalty to the country remains unquestioned by the government. -
Like morons who use argumentum ad baculum.Originally posted by CX:we are NOT being trained to be indoctrinated nazi storm troopers... that is not the point cos u just end up making psycho tar-heads who cannot integrate back into the society...
citizen soldiers are meant to be different from ideologically motivated psychos. -
or cowards who say bravrey is dead and that increased miltary technology spending is a better substitute