Long live Singlish!
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Yu see, once I challenge ST, he just cannot back up his claims and need to stray away. It happens every time w/o fail.
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+1Originally posted by Mat Toro:Yu see, once I challen-yadda yadda yadda
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Mat Toro's NS pic?
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looks more than ST to me. He does look stuck in argument.
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Originally posted by Mat Toro:looks more than- blahblah.
+1
Estonian soldiers looking for Mat Toro's common sense... unfortunately it was not found. -
In defence of Singlish
An anti-Singlish editorial in the Straits Time was yet another attack by a Singapore opinion leader, but the issue needs a less reactionary approach. Firstly, like nearly all official campaigns against language issues, there will be little to show for the money spent. Language change is driven by forces nearly always well beyond the control of governments and newspaper editors. Even Stalin failed, and governments more sensitive to public opinion risk looking foolish. Secondly, the concerns that Singlish is a danger to the international competitiveness of Singapore are wrong. Many English speakers around the world speak non-standard dialects of English as their main language, yet they are still fluent in standard English. In fact, leading researchers say that less than 15% of native-born Britons speak standard English as their everyday dialect1 See the papers linked below.
Speaking different dialects in different situations is called "diglossia", and happens everywhere there are dialects of different prestige. In Singapore, Singlish is the low prestige dialect, and standard English is the high prestige dialect.
Actually, there is no one "Singlish". At its most extreme, it has relatively few speakers, just as standard English is Singapore hardly ever is exactly the same as the English of the Home Counties. However, it is clear the most Singaporeans who can speak Standard English also use a different form of English that we call Singlish, and which of these two forms they use is easily predictable depending on the social situation. Using two dialects for different social purposes is called "Diglossia", and it has been widely researched, in Singapore and in many other places. The research goes back decades. It can be difficult to find a good way of explaining to standard English speakers how people can easily move between different dialects because the variation in English dialects around the world is usually not very great2 "Grammatical differences between Standard English and other dialects are in fact rather few in number, although of course they are very significant socially" Trudgill . Most people think of "Cockney" as being a separate dialect, although most of the characteristics of "Cockney" that make it a "dialect" are pronunciation based, not grammar based. However, "Cockney" can still illustrate the key points. First, we need a definition of fluency in standard English using a few tests, and then we ask if "Cockney" speakers can pass these tests. My tests are
Cockneys can sustain a ten minute, two-way conversation with a member of the British royal family (or Hugh Grant, or a job interview with a bank manager from Brighton. These are conversations very likely to be in standard English.)
They can comprehend a daily newspaper, and they can understand a London BBC news broadcast and the Queen's annual address (to linguists, witten-word tests are not as important, but I include them to show how difficult it is to imagine residents of London not having good standard English skills).
My claim is not that an East Londoner (or Geoffrey Boycott or a Norfolk speaker (this is a recording) for that matter) can sound like a member of the royal family, but by passing these tests they demonstrate fluency in standard English. At the same time, they are able to speak perfectly acceptable "Cockney" to other members of that social group. The United States and England are full of people who can move between standard English and local versions of English. This is just as well, because one leading researcher, Trudgill, estimates that only between 9% and 15% of Britons actually speak standard English as their main dialect, and that only 3% speak it with the "official" accent. While researching this article I came across an old Straits Times article, where a Singaporean mother complained that her daughter was speaking perfect standard English until she went to playgroup, where she learned Singlish from her peers. In fact the daughter was smarter than the mother; how could she have been accepted by the group if she kept speaking prestigious standard English in the informal surrounds of the playground? Rejecting the language of her peers would mean rejection by them. Children in Singapore must learn the language of their peers. It is the same the world over. -
Another example close to Singapore is Jakarta. Anyone with basic Indonesian knows how different the native dialect of Jakartans is from Bahasa Indonesia, even though Bahasa Jakarta is still the same language3 Jakarta is the only place in Java where Bahasa Indonesia is spoken as a mother tongue.. Jakartans need standard Indonesian to talk with Indonesians from outside Jakarta, and for formal situations, even when everyone present is from Jakarta. You might think that native Jakartans get confused between the two dialects and can't speak good standard Bahasa Indonesia, yet after three years of living there, I can report that every single native-born4 Migrants from rural areas of Java are native speakers of Javanse, a completely unrelated language, and sometimes struggle with Bahasa Indonesia Jakartan I met speaks fine standard Indonesian, be they professionals, taxi drivers, maids, gardeners, drivers, security guards or whatever. I don't think too much of relying on personal anecdotes, but all the native Jakartans I've asked report the same thing. In other words, native born Jakartans speak two quite different dialects of Indonesian with ease. This would not be a surprise to people familiar with research in this area. Singaporeans easily perform the same thing.
English speakers raised in Singapore learn early in their life how to use different dialects for different situations, just as people do in all the other places on the planet with different dialects for different social needs. Many languages have different dialects for different social situations, and both Singlish and Bahasa Jakarta (known as 'slang' by its speakers) are used mainly in informal circumstances between social peers even when both speakers know the standard form of the language. The important conclusion is that usage of Singlish does not mean that Singapore speakers will be impaired in using standard English.
My reference to "Cockney" above may give the impression that Singlish is restricted to usage in Singapore by less educated people, since Cockneys are famously lower class residents of a poor part of London. In fact, as research by Gupta (see also links below) and others show, Singlish usage is widespread through all classes in Singapore, including "bank managers, doctors and teachers"5 private correspondence, groups who have excellent command of standard English. In Jakarta, Bahasa Jakarta ("slang") is also used by all classes.
Despite the negative pressure from the authorities, most Singaporeans are quietly proud of Singlish, and why not? It is a fun, energetic and dynamic dialect. If Singaporeans wish for a separate cultural identity, Singlish is likely to grow in popularity, no matter what the government does. Not so long ago the editorial pages of the Straits Times were dismayed by surveys showing that some young Singaporeans really wanted to be Westerners. Singlish is strong evidence that most young Singaporeans are actually moving in the opposite direction; they want "Singaporean" to mean more than living in an air-conditioned dot on the map (Mahatir's phrase).
As for the concern about international English, who could seriously deny that these same young Singaporeans are first class speakers of standard English? No country in Asia has better English skills; among its service economy rivals, only Australia offers serious competition in overall language skills. But is there a decline in English here? No. Spending some time among both older and younger Singaporeans reveals that English in Singapore is getting better with successive generations, even as Singlish seems to spread further and further into the mass media.
English recently became the first language in 2000 years to have more second-language speakers than native speakers. By using different dialects of English for both international communication and for local use, Singapore is not joining a world wide corruption. It is leading a world wide trend; globalisation means that people are becoming more protective of their identities even as they spend more time in contact with the rest of the world. This will drive language change everywhere, but it will not threaten the requirement for standard English anywhere.
Clearly, Singapore's language education is working well. In an island speaking so many languages, there is very good and improving command of standard English. It's odd to think that Singlish is a threat to this, because evidence from all over the world says it's not.
Relax, lah. Singlish is cool, it's homegrown and it's no problem. -
Singlish Poem
Wah! I heard we all now got big big debate.
They said future of proper English is at stake.
All because stupid Singlish spoil the market,
want to change now donno whether too late.
Aiyoh! Ang mo hear us talk like that also want to faint.
Even our "U" graduates speak like Ah Beng, Ah Seng.
Singlish is like rojak, everything throw inside anyhow mix.
Got Malay, Indian, Chinese and English, can give and take.
When you donno something is under table or chair,
you ask loud loud "Oi! Under where? Under where?"
When you see somebody behave very bad,
you scold him, "aiyah! Why you so like that?"
When you ended up in a traffic jam, and got stuck,
you complain, "today, I sai chia kena very chia lat."
When you warn your kids to be careful all the way,
you tell them, "careful har, you better don't play-play!"
When you see moon cakes with many egg yolks,
you say, "wah! This type good to eat, very shiok!"
When your friend mistook his mother for his aunt,
you disturb him, 'alamak! Why you so blur one?"
You write like that in exam you sure liao.
Teacher mark your paper also kee siao.
This kind of standard how to pass?
Wait, you sure kena last in class.
Other people hear you, say you sound silly.
So like that how to become world-class city?
Basically Singlish got good and got bad.
Aiyah! Everything in life is all like that.
Actually Singlish got one bright side.
I am talking about our national plight.
Maybe I must explain to you what I mean.
If you're prepared to hear me, I'll begin.
Other people all say we all got no culture.
All we got is a lot of joint business ventures.
So we got no culture to glue us together.
End up we all like a big bunch of feathers.
Wind blow a bit too strong only we fly away.
Everybody all go their own separate ways.
Now we must play Internet otherwise cannot survive.
Next time the only way to make money, or sure to die.
When other countries' influences all enter,
we sure kena affected left, right and centre.
Sekali our Singporean identity all lost until donno go where.
Even Orang-Utan Ah Meng starts thinking like a Polar Bear.
But still must go I.T. otherwise become swa koo,
only smarter than Ah Meng of the Mandai Zoo.
Wait the whole world go I.T., we still blur as sontong,
next time we all only qualified to sell laksa in Katong.
So got this kind of problem like that how?
Either sit and wait or do something now.
But actually we all got one "culture" in Singlish.
It's like rice on the table; it is our common dish.
I know this funny "culture" is not the best around
so we must tahan a bit until a better one is found.
Not all the time can marry the best man,
so bo pian got no prawns, fish also can.
I donno whether you agree with me or not?
I just simply sharing with you my thoughts.
Singlish is just like the garden weeds.
You pull like mad still it would not quit.
Sure got some people like and some do not like.
Singlish and English, they'll still live side by side.
Composed by The Sweet Popcorn, Cornelius "CORN" Pang on 19th August 1999
If English came from England,
did Singlish come from Singland?
If the young of a pig is a piglet,
is the young of a Singaporean a singlet?
Cute Creations for Recreation by Cornelius "CORN" Pang -
silly poems posted by ST.
Why do you like to cut and paste long post that nobody reads? -
Don't read lor. No one is asking you to use that minute sized brain of yours.Originally posted by Mat Toro:silly poems posted by ST.
Why do you like to cut and paste long post that nobody reads? -
LOL, nice one!Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Don't read lor. No one is asking you to use that minute sized brain of yours.
In any case, it is indeed unfortunate he did not read the poem, for it makes a powerful statement for Singlish.
With his kind of "aiyah I don't understand it then no need to bother with it" kind of attitude, how can Singapore english improve?
Mat Toro:
SELF PWNED!
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you are right. I didn't read. of course, you didn't read as well. nobody read.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:Don't read lor. No one is asking you to use that minute sized brain of yours. -
LOLOriginally posted by Mat Toro:you are right. I did- blahblah .
+1 -
eh? no more big word posts from ST?
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Mat Toro sure is a dickhead...he seems to be a pain in everyone's ass in whichever thread he posts in. My solution is go fuck yourself.
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LOL, why should there be when they have already made such a stong case for Singlish?Originally posted by Mat Toro:eh? no mor- blahblahblah
+1
and PWNAGE! -
Originally posted by jondizzle foshizzle:
Well, you might be more understanding of him once you know of his... erm, special condition:
[b]Mat Toro sure is a dickhead...he seems to be a pain in everyone's ass in whichever thread he posts in. [b]
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that creature looks like you ST.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Well, you might be more understanding of him once you know of his... erm, special condition: -
If you are looking for serious discussions here, you will be sad to see yet another discussion degraded into names calling, but looking at the lighter side of it, now this is more entertaining with the pictures posted.
In europe it is not uncommon for people who speak 3 to 4 languages. In Malaysia, many Chinese are speaking Malay, English and Chinese, plus another 1 or 2 dialect. If we speak only Singlish, we are no different from the average HKger who speaks only cantonese, but there are a lot more cantonese speaking people outside HK; or the japanese, who always have problem speaking proper english, but there are over 1 billion of them speaking japanese in their little islands.
Singlish is our newly developed culture, not heritage. There is nothing to be ashamed of. But take note that Singlish does not link us with the world, its English, Mandarin and even Malay.
Our older generation, my father and uncles, they speak Mandarin, enough english to conduct business with the angmohs, some malay to find ways around malaysia and indonesia, plus many chinese dialects, even though they only learn chinese in schools. Almost all indians then spoke malay, and some english, besides their tamil, some even speak hokkien.
why now people are having so much problem with just learning 2 languages that are taught in schools? People are even migrating cause their children cannot cope with a second language Besides Singlish, why can't we master proper english and chinese, your mother tongue?
Singlish is our identity, the language of Singaporean, alone it doesn't get us anywhere outside of Singapore. English is our link with the angmoh world, Chinese, Malay or Indian is our link with the respective countries or market in this region, and our ethnic identity. ever met a Malay who can't speak malay? or an indian who can't speak tamil or hindi? or a german who don't speak german? NO. Only Chinese who can't speak chinese, some singaporean chinese. My friend put it very well: " my friend from america was very surprised I spoke very good english, but he was more surprised I could not speak chinese."
Language is more than just economic value. Our ability to speak indicate our ability to communicate and adapt, it also reflects our mindset. If we think singlish or english are enough, our mindset will not go very far. Blame the government, blame the education system, but his one you can't even blame your parents, you are doing the learning, the opportunities are there. -
If you need to know, the linguists who have studied our language issues have concluded that Singlish is not really the issue, but a the result of our own myopic language teaching policies.Originally posted by sgdiehard:If you are looking for serious discussions here, you will be sad to see yet another discussion degraded into names calling, but looking at the lighter side of it, now this is more entertaining with the pictures posted.
In europe it is not uncommon for people who speak 3 to 4 languages. In Malaysia, many Chinese are speaking Malay, English and Chinese, plus another 1 or 2 dialect. If we speak only Singlish, we are no different from the average HKger who speaks only cantonese, but there are a lot more cantonese speaking people outside HK; or the japanese, who always have problem speaking proper english, but there are over 1 billion of them speaking japanese in their little islands.
Singlish is our newly developed culture, not heritage. There is nothing to be ashamed of. But take note that Singlish does not link us with the world, its English, Mandarin and even Malay.
Our older generation, my father and uncles, they speak Mandarin, enough english to conduct business with the angmohs, some malay to find ways around malaysia and indonesia, plus many chinese dialects, even though they only learn chinese in schools. Almost all indians then spoke malay, and some english, besides their tamil, some even speak hokkien.
why now people are having so much problem with just learning 2 languages that are taught in schools? People are even migrating cause their children cannot cope with a second language Besides Singlish, why can't we master proper english and chinese, your mother tongue?
Singlish is our identity, the language of Singaporean, alone it doesn't get us anywhere outside of Singapore. English is our link with the angmoh world, Chinese, Malay or Indian is our link with the respective countries or market in this region, and our ethnic identity. ever met a Malay who can't speak malay? or an indian who can't speak tamil or hindi? or a german who don't speak german? NO. Only Chinese who can't speak chinese, some singaporean chinese. My friend put it very well: " my friend from america was very surprised I spoke very good english, but he was more surprised I could not speak chinese."
Language is more than just economic value. Our ability to speak indicate our ability to communicate and adapt, it also reflects our mindset. If we think singlish or english are enough, our mindset will not go very far. Blame the government, blame the education system, but his one you can't even blame your parents, you are doing the learning, the opportunities are there.
I suspect the constant targeting of Singlish is either a "quick fix" solution by people who are unwilling to take steps to understand the entire problem, or some elitist cultural bias that seeks to deride anything that seems peasant.
In any case, no matter what they do, Singlish will remain as long as our language policies remain the way they are, and that is to pretend we are all native English speakers when actually quite a lot of us are not and have little recourse. -
lol wow such a good comeback, very witty. About the equivalent of a 6 year old saying "I know you are but what am I?".Originally posted by Mat Toro:that creature looks like you ST. -
I find the poem very relevant... especially the last few couplets.
Singaporeans need a common identity, ableit it's not really an ideal common identity, it's still something unique that Singaporeans can relate to.
How many a time have we identified fellow Singaporeans from our unique accents when abroad? It does brings back the warm feeling that home brings. -
LOL, that's a really feeble comback you know.Originally posted by Mat Toro:that creature looks like you ST.
Did it occur to you that it is actually best not to post comment on the picture at all if you do not have anything effective to say or else it might actually make the picture more effective by showcasing your inability to properly respond to it?
Please, don't self-pwn leh... -
hehe, we don't need linguists to tell us that. If English can become American language in America, why can't english become singlish in singapore. Language is very much a living thing that stay with a culture, and the multi racial society in Singapore has over the years developed its own culture, Singlish is part of our culture, as our identity. It stays even if they change all the language policies in Singapore.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:If you need to know, the linguists who have studied our language issues have concluded that Singlish is not really the issue, but a the result of our own myopic language teaching policies.
I suspect the constant targeting of Singlish is either a "quick fix" solution by people who are unwilling to take steps to understand the entire problem, or some elitist cultural bias that seeks to deride anything that seems peasant.
In any case, no matter what they do, Singlish will remain as long as our language policies remain the way they are, and that is to pretend we are all native English speakers when actually quite a lot of us are not and have little recourse.
There are actually two versions of Singlish, one is spoken english mixed with mandarin, dialects and malay, the other type is mandarin spoken with patches of english, dialects and malay.
But it doesn't mean that because we speak the english version of singlish, we can't learn to speak english or american or australian properly; if we speak the chinese version of singlish, we can't learn to speak mandarin properly. -
i don't think singlish is something we shld be proud of cos its a copy langauge anyway.