Do you think a uni education is a worthwhile investment ?
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Transiting in between doesnt mean you are successful plus technology in IT is moving so fast that most of the skills to knowledge you know today will be irrelevant or outsourced 5 years down to roadOriginally posted by soul_rage:1) If you are restricting it to fresh grads, then yes, I concur
2) in terms of IT, yes, you can. As long as the basic foundations are there, yes, its possible. I have seen some of my friends transit between successfully. -
That's the hard technical skill.Originally posted by Gazelle:Transiting in between doesnt mean you are successful plus technology in IT is moving so fast that most of the skills to knowledge you know today will be irrelevant or outsourced 5 years down to road
In IT, there's also the soft technical skill. A person competent in soft skills can transit within any new changes in technology, coz the concepts and foundations are essentially still the same.
A top IT personnel is good at keeping up with the latest technologies coz of such soft skills.
Of coz, many fall off along the way. But there are those that excel -
why not?Originally posted by Gazelle:2) If your IT experience is in networking, will you be good enough to manage a team of software engineers?
A manager need not be better than the people he manages. The reason why some people think it is better to rise up the rank (i.e. pick a manager among the software engineers) is because of respect.
If you are in the IT industry, do read the classic called 'Peopleware'. Inside you will find what is management at its best.
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soul_rage is right.Originally posted by Gazelle:Transiting in between doesnt mean you are successful plus technology in IT is moving so fast that most of the skills to knowledge you know today will be irrelevant or outsourced 5 years down to road
while he talks about the hard and soft technical skills, I'd see it as the difference beween the essence and the accidents.
Once again, if you are in the IT industry, do read the classic paper "No Silver Bullets" by Fred Brooks who also authored the classic, must read book for every programmer "The Mythical Man Month". -
I thought there is something called management executive?Originally posted by Gazelle:1) For a fresh grad without working experience, do you get to become take up a management role?
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I like to add in a bit more if you don't mind IcemoonOriginally posted by Icemoon:why not?
A manager need not be better than the people he manages. The reason why some people think it is better to rise up the rank (i.e. pick a manager among the software engineers) is because of respect.
If you are in the IT industry, do read the classic called 'Peopleware'. Inside you will find what is management at its best.
Better is also subjective
If you are a manager, your IT developers can be better technically than you, but management-wise, so long as you can bring out the best in your team, then that's what matters.
I think management in IT is more related to resource allocation, prioritization, with technical knowledge to help in making high-level decisions. You only need to know how to design the wall, but you don't need to build the bricks -
Would you enjoy working for a fresh grad who only has better qualification and know nuts about the industry and what you are doing?Originally posted by Icemoon:why not?
A manager need not be better than the people he manages. The reason why some people think it is better to rise up the rank (i.e. pick a manager among the software engineers) is because of respect.
If you are in the IT industry, do read the classic called 'Peopleware'. Inside you will find what is management at its best. -
You mean management trainee? yeah they get to move around and finally become blur like sotong and then caught in the firing line of internal politics.Originally posted by Icemoon:I thought there is something called management executive? -
no. I did not specify a fresh gradOriginally posted by Gazelle:Would you enjoy working for a fresh grad who only has better qualification and know nuts about the industry and what you are doing?
We are talking about managers, so its related to people who have reached the management level
And...
There's nothing wrong with the manager being younger than his subordinates, as long as he's capable. -
my apologiesOriginally posted by Gazelle:You mean management trainee? yeah they get to move around and finally become blur like sotong and then caught in the firing line of internal politics.
I need to clarify this
Management Trainee isn't exactly the same as Management Executives, or Management Associates
Depending on the company, there are some companies where MA or MEs are top of the group, and most of them are scholars -
its only worthless if the person does not make use of what he's learnt to make good.
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Nope, seriously I won't.Originally posted by Gazelle:Would you enjoy working for a fresh grad who only has better qualification and know nuts about the industry and what you are doing? -
Exactly! A manager need not have the highest technical prowess, but need the technical knowledge to "communicate with the geeks", so to speak.Originally posted by soul_rage:If you are a manager, your IT developers can be better technically than you, but management-wise, so long as you can bring out the best in your team, then that's what matters.
I think management in IT is more related to resource allocation, prioritization, with technical knowledge to help in making high-level decisions. You only need to know how to design the wall, but you don't need to build the bricks
A manager is a buffer between the techies and the upper management or other departments. A good manager can balance the interest of the company with the interest of the charges under him.
soul_rage is right about the role of an IT manager. It is more about resource allocation and prioritization. All the coding, design and testing .. are done by people like programmers, architects and testers.
Just like starting a business, you need to have basic knowledge of finance, marketing and law. But the real work you leave it to your accountants, marketing and lawyers. -
Thanks IcemoonOriginally posted by Icemoon:Exactly! A manager need not have the highest technical prowess, but need the technical knowledge to "communicate with the geeks", so to speak.
A manager is a buffer between the techies and the upper management or other departments. A good manager can balance the interest of the company with the interest of the charges under him.
soul_rage is right about the role of an IT manager. It is more about resource allocation and prioritization. All the coding, design and testing .. are done by people like programmers, architects and testers.
Just like starting a business, you need to have basic knowledge of finance, marketing and law. But the real work you leave it to your accountants, marketing and lawyers.
To Gazelle, I think we should put this behind and move on to other debates. To be honest (no offence intended) you do not know enough on the topic of IT management.
Based on your opinion that technology changes very fast => IT skills get obsolete fast, means you aren't in the industry to know what are the skills required for management in IT. -
Coming back to the original topic
I do agree with Gazelle that its best to get a uni education.
Unfortunately, in Singapore, the paper is now deemed as a basic criteria in many jobs. Gone are the old times, when the graduate is a rare thing to find, and getting the degree is an optional thing.
In paper-crazy Singapore, most interviewers will shut you out if you don't have that paper.
Of coz, I do believe that getting a paper reduces a person's risk-taking ability. However, that's another topic. -
MA and ME are top of the group only if they can deliver what is expected from the company. Having paper qualification or IQ is only half of it, to be a leader you need leadship and EQOriginally posted by soul_rage:my apologies
I need to clarify this
Management Trainee isn't exactly the same as Management Executives, or Management Associates
Depending on the company, there are some companies where MA or MEs are top of the group, and most of them are scholars -
yes, but they are given leadership opportunities to excel. This is already half the battle won isn't it, compared to some people whom don't even have the opportunities provided to them.Originally posted by Gazelle:MA and ME are top of the group only if they can deliver what is expected from the company. Having paper qualification or IQ is only half of it, to be a leader you need leadship and EQ
Of coz, if you are given opportunity to excel, it also means you are vulnerable to a high-profile screwup and given a high profile red card. -
Certain industry requires more than a degree. For the case of IT, it's a matter of updating themselves with the new software programmes, such as CSS, C+ or even C#.
For the case of Bio Industry, which is what i'm pursueing, a diploma is definitely NOT ENOUGH. We only get to prepare the solutions and maintain lab cleanliness. The salaray will be stagnant (ard $1500) and you can only depend on pay increment. If I want to be a research fellow, I need to atleast obtain a doctorate, then the govt would provide with funds in order to set up a research lab.
So, only if you have a degree, your supervisor MAY send you to take up Masters regarding the research you are working on. That's how it will progress from here.
Therefore, it all depends on your career path. -
Actually I just want to highlight, CSS, C+ or C# are all low-level stuff. To be a highly valued IT professional in Singapore, these aren't even considered important, and are actually outsourced to other countries where there are developers doing all these.Originally posted by selfobliged:Certain industry requires more than a degree. For the case of IT, it's a matter of updating themselves with the new software programmes, such as CSS, C+ or even C#.
For the case of Bio Industry, which is what i'm pursueing, a diploma is definitely NOT ENOUGH. We only get to prepare the solutions and maintain lab cleanliness. The salaray will be stagnant (ard $1500) and you can only depend on pay increment. If I want to be a research fellow, I need to atleast obtain a doctorate, then the govt would provide with funds in order to set up a research lab.
So, only if you have a degree, your supervisor MAY send you to take up Masters regarding the research you are working on. That's how it will progress from here.
Therefore, it all depends on your career path.
In Singapore, to excel, you must learn how to design a wall that is nice, good, and effective, rather than focusing on laying the bricks
Those who lay bricks will see their salaries stagnate. Those who boast about how good their development skills are in CSS, C+ or C#, will also see their salaries stagnate. -
Not really, I think those who has the ability to develop software are usually those who will make it big in the IT industry. Microsoft is nothing but software isn't it?Originally posted by soul_rage:Actually I just want to highlight, CSS, C+ or C# are all low-level stuff. To be a highly valued IT professional in Singapore, these aren't even considered important, and are actually outsourced to other countries where there are developers doing all these.
In Singapore, to excel, you must learn how to design a wall that is nice, good, and effective, rather than focusing on laying the bricks
Those who lay bricks will see their salaries stagnate. Those who boast about how good their development skills are in CSS, C+ or C#, will also see their salaries stagnate.
the weakest point of the wall is still the brick, hence the key to a strong wall is still the brick and mortar -
aren't u all going off the topic?? Lets steer back.
Another factor to consider whether yr uni education is worthwhile or not is the uni that u attended. For eg. You are a local architect with a local U degree. U are easily replaceable with a PRC holding a Beijing Uni degree who demand a lower pay. The architect with a local degree lost his job easily. If a uni degree cant help him find a job what for does he need it especially since a degree will land him in debts. -
All those jobs are more likely to be outsourced to India or China where there are tonnes of software engineers.Originally posted by Gazelle:Not really, I think those who has the ability to develop software are usually those who will make it big in the IT industry. Microsoft is nothing but software isn't it?
the weakest point of the wall is still the brick, hence the key to a strong wall is still the brick and mortar
Lead development and program management remains in the US.
There essentially not much of a software industry in Singapore.
And IT industry isn't just all about software development. There is a hardware side and a services side, which includes telecommunications etc. These also make a fair bit of big bucks. -
wait .. correct me if I'm wrong .. but Microsoft doesn't have habit of outsouring its development work.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:All those jobs are more likely to be outsourced to India or China where there are tonnes of software engineers.
Lead development and program management remains in the US.
There essentially not much of a software industry in Singapore. -
I am not too sure about MS, but I know IBM and a few other companies have outsourcing. Even Intel outsources processor design work.Originally posted by Icemoon:wait .. correct me if I'm wrong .. but Microsoft doesn't have habit of outsouring its development work.
EDIT: I did a quick google for MS India and there's apparently a design centre there.
Microsoft India Development Center
They are hiring software engineers now too. -
I'm not sure whether you can call that outsourcing.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:EDIT: I did a quick google for MS India and there's apparently a design centre there.
Microsoft India Development Center
They are hiring software engineers now too.