Do you think a uni education is a worthwhile investment ?
-
-
You may be right about the brick being the weakest point, but then when did you ever see a bangla making it big in the construction industry?Originally posted by Gazelle:Not really, I think those who has the ability to develop software are usually those who will make it big in the IT industry. Microsoft is nothing but software isn't it?
the weakest point of the wall is still the brick, hence the key to a strong wall is still the brick and mortar
if you have been following the latest technology, you'd have realized the brick laying is getting simpler and simpler. For example, those doing managed code like Java and C# don't even need to take care of pointers. Another example, web programming is almost trivial now, you can just drag and drop without writing a single line of code, so web designers can effectively displace web programmers liao. -
ah ah .... I'll dispute that, but that's for the IT corner ...Originally posted by Icemoon:For example, those doing managed code like Java and C# don't even need to take care of pointers. Another example, web programming is almost trivial now, you can just drag and drop without writing a single line of code, so web designers can effectively displace web programmers liao.
the thing is, there are distinctly different levels of the game in the IT/computing industry .... there are programmers, or code monkeys on one end of the scale, and system architects and analysts on the other end ...
people doesn't realize that the IT profession has a career progression path just like every other career .... you have to keep up and upgrade, just like any other profession ... if you were an assistant engineer 10 years ago and still an assistant engineer today, something is wrong, no ? ... same thing with the IT industry ... if you were writing scripts and debugging code 10 years ago, and you're still doing that today instead of doing system design work, then you're just waiting to hand your rice bowl to a chap in india, no ? ...
yes, web programming is becoming more and more trivial, but that's only if you're doing simple webpages, people are now talking about distributed apps, the semantic web, .NET etc ... when the lower order things get simpler, then it's time to move further up the chain, no ? ...
In the end though, I have to agree, that a piece of parchment still does open doors in the IT industry ... the smelly, unwashed geek stereotype no longer holds in the industry ... -
Then define it.Originally posted by Icemoon:I'm not sure whether you can call that outsourcing.
-
urm GazelleOriginally posted by Gazelle:Not really, I think those who has the ability to develop software are usually those who will make it big in the IT industry. Microsoft is nothing but software isn't it?
the weakest point of the wall is still the brick, hence the key to a strong wall is still the brick and mortar
I mean no offence, but you really do not know the IT industry and what sort of skills to excel in it.
The infantry, the foot soldiers win the war on the ground, but they are just foot soldiers that know how to fire the rifle, nothing more. Yup, they have their section leaders that know how to lead, and their platoon commanders that know even more to lead (you see, its all about leading and organizing that gets a person far)
Basically, what I like to tell you, is that knowing how to write software (firing the rifle) doesn't get you anywhere. Lots of people know how to write codes. Nothing valuable in that.
But, creating a software that you know can achieve a business purpose/research purpose etc (ie directing the foot soldiers to aim and fire at a specific target), and then getting it produced (you can even outsource the development) will give a higher probability of making it in the industry.
Or, leading a team to get a system produced (section leader or platoon commander directing foot soldiers to conquer an area) in the time specified and delivered according to what the customer wants. That's value too. -
I like what you sayOriginally posted by Fatum:ah ah .... I'll dispute that, but that's for the IT corner ...
the thing is, there are distinctly different levels of the game in the IT/computing industry .... there are programmers, or code monkeys on one end of the scale, and system architects and analysts on the other end ...
people doesn't realize that the IT profession has a career progression path just like every other career .... you have to keep up and upgrade, just like any other profession ... if you were an assistant engineer 10 years ago and still an assistant engineer today, something is wrong, no ? ... same thing with the IT industry ... if you were writing scripts and debugging code 10 years ago, and you're still doing that today instead of doing system design work, then you're just waiting to hand your rice bowl to a chap in india, no ? ...
yes, web programming is becoming more and more trivial, but that's only if you're doing simple webpages, people are now talking about distributed apps, the semantic web, .NET etc ... when the lower order things get simpler, then it's time to move further up the chain, no ? ...
In the end though, I have to agree, that a piece of parchment still does open doors in the IT industry ... the smelly, unwashed geek stereotype no longer holds in the industry ...
Programmers, code monkeys -> those that fire the rifle.
System architects and Analyst -> higher value
Anyone heard of Enterprise Architecture? That's one of the latest direction for people related to IT in the private sector. Its more on organization, planning, delivering, than coding.
And finally, I think no matter which industry it is, a paper does open doors (not only IT). In fact, its becoming more and more like the de facto standard to have a paper before a gap in the doorway is even opened for you -
Ultimately, whether outsourcing or insourcing is not really relevant.Originally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:I am not too sure about MS, but I know IBM and a few other companies have outsourcing. Even Intel outsources processor design work.
EDIT: I did a quick google for MS India and there's apparently a design centre there.
Microsoft India Development Center
They are hiring software engineers now too.
Basically, development (whether be it outsiders or insiders) are always for lower level people.
Those that can lead/manage/revolutionize with a new idea will climb up. -
As I was mentioning about my opinionOriginally posted by NewAge:aren't u all going off the topic?? Lets steer back.
Another factor to consider whether yr uni education is worthwhile or not is the uni that u attended. For eg. You are a local architect with a local U degree. U are easily replaceable with a PRC holding a Beijing Uni degree who demand a lower pay. The architect with a local degree lost his job easily. If a uni degree cant help him find a job what for does he need it especially since a degree will land him in debts.
It doesn't matter whether you are a local architect with a local U degree or foreign U degree.
With the ease of flow of foreign talent, you must find a way to up your value and move upwards.
I do not know enough about architecture to say much, but what I mean is this.
In the IT industry its widely recognized that Indians are only used for development or the lower level work. They are perceived to not have the abilities of knowing the specific needs of the company you are working for. They also are not known for their design work (its actually quite atrocious if you ever try to get them to do it)
I am not saying ALL indians are screwed with the above. But that's not their strength, which if you know, you can exploit and build yourself up in that area. -
then go get a Beijing Uni degree then.Originally posted by NewAge:aren't u all going off the topic?? Lets steer back.
Another factor to consider whether yr uni education is worthwhile or not is the uni that u attended. For eg. You are a local architect with a local U degree. U are easily replaceable with a PRC holding a Beijing Uni degree who demand a lower pay. The architect with a local degree lost his job easily. If a uni degree cant help him find a job what for does he need it especially since a degree will land him in debts. ever saw a chinese construction worker replacing the job of a Singaporean architect?? -
hey .. mai siao siao ok .. there are infantry, glorified infantry like guards and elite infantryman like commandos.Originally posted by soul_rage:The infantry, the foot soldiers win the war on the ground, but they are just foot soldiers that know how to fire the rifle, nothing more. Yup, they have their section leaders that know how to lead, and their platoon commanders that know even more to lead (you see, its all about leading and organizing that gets a person far)
a bit sad when people brand anyone who does programming a programmer. I make a distinction between programmer and developer. The latter does design, coding, testing, building, integration, debugging and what have you. hopefully these can be stepping stones to a higher position.
-
ok, if you are bringing in the elites, that I have nothing to say.Originally posted by Icemoon:hey .. mai siao siao ok .. there are infantry, glorified infantry like guards and elite infantryman like commandos.
a bit sad when people brand anyone who does programming a programmer. I make a distinction between programmer and developer. The latter does design, coding, testing, building, integration, debugging and what have you. hopefully these can be stepping stones to a higher position.
But as far as I know, infantry is infantry, we are not talking about the special forces.
Programmer or Developer, they are all the same (honestly to me, not offending anyone, but just want everyone to have a clear idea), you may start off there (coz it builds your basic skills), but if you are still a developer after many years, then that's really going to be worrying
In fact, developers are now closer to being isolated to only DESIGN of the CODES (elegant codes, better performance, etc). The more higher-valued personnel are system analysts, whom design the system.
Unfortunately, the world is cruel. Those whose work cannot be seen by others, becomes lower-valued. -
i not going uni. no plans. going to take up financial planning at kaplan. CFP then go out and work as a financial planner/advisor liao. if can even go for CFA.
-
I suppose you are talking more about the backend stuffs? Obviously we can't expect J2EE to be done by a group of designers right?Originally posted by Fatum:yes, web programming is becoming more and more trivial, but that's only if you're doing simple webpages, people are now talking about distributed apps, the semantic web, .NET etc ... when the lower order things get simpler, then it's time to move further up the chain, no ? ...
But say, for example, the frontend for .NET. It is now possible for designers to do the frontend alone without probably writing a single line of code. I remember last time do classic ASP inject all the "Response.Write" until vomit blood. Now designers can even use AJAX without knowing how it actually works.
I was thinking of how technology is empowering those not trained in programming and how it is increasing the collaboration between programmers and designers (e.g. Microsoft Expression). -
Then again, which Beijing Uni grad would want to come to Singapore, let alone work as a construction laborer?Originally posted by sgdiehard:then go get a Beijing Uni degree then. ever saw a chinese construction worker replacing the job of a Singaporean architect??
Most of the ones I knew are heading to the States. -
modern technology further de-values the programmer or developerOriginally posted by Icemoon:I suppose you are talking more about the backend stuffs? Obviously we can't expect J2EE to be done by a group of designers right?
But say, for example, the frontend for .NET. It is now possible for designers to do the frontend alone without probably writing a single line of code. I remember last time do classic ASP inject all the "Response.Write" until vomit blood. Now designers can even use AJAX without knowing how it actually works.
I was thinking of how technology is empowering those not trained in programming and how it is increasing the collaboration between programmers and designers (e.g. Microsoft Expression).
in fact, I heard that the ideal world for IT is a world where there is no longer any programmers/developers, where development toolkit allows one to enter a design, and it churns out the codes
of coz, there's a long way away -
aiya .. in small IT shops .. developers "book mountain book sea" do everything.Originally posted by soul_rage:In fact, developers are now closer to being isolated to only DESIGN of the CODES (elegant codes, better performance, etc). The more higher-valued personnel are system analysts, whom design the system.
Unfortunately, the world is cruel. Those whose work cannot be seen by others, becomes lower-valued.
Yes, unfortunately the world is cruel. -
This is the trend that is happen in most industry and that also explain why lower skills workers are being left out of the economic boom.Originally posted by soul_rage:modern technology further de-values the programmer or developer
in fact, I heard that the ideal world for IT is a world where there is no longer any programmers/developers, where development toolkit allows one to enter a design, and it churns out the codes
of coz, there's a long way away
Looks like your future in the IT industry look pretty bleak -
well i think every industry has its painsOriginally posted by Icemoon:aiya .. in small IT shops .. developers "book mountain book sea" do everything.
Yes, unfortunately the world is cruel.
The chinese saying, On stage performance for 1 min, off stage train for 10 years to achieve that 1 min, is really adequate.
Just need to try to minimize the off stage training/work and maximize your on stage performance. -
who? me?Originally posted by Gazelle:This is the trend that is happen in most industry and that also explain why lower skills workers are being left out of the economic boom.
Looks like your future in the IT industry look pretty bleak
Nay, I am far up the ladder already
have not touched coding for a while already, and spend more time on management, consultancy and projects
Seriously, I think you should skip the debate on IT, coz I really think you don't have the knowledge to continue discussing further.
Just coz the lower end jobs are disappearing, doesn't mean that there are no jobs in this industry. In fact, it only serves to improve this industry, and bring it further into new heights.
Why? Becoz people are focused less and less 'low-value' work, but moving towards higher-value work, which means more heads to push the industry further into new domains. -
In general, companies like IBM etc. do consultancy work.Originally posted by Gazelle:This is the trend that is happen in most industry and that also explain why lower skills workers are being left out of the economic boom.
Looks like your future in the IT industry look pretty bleak
All the code monkeys are peons essentially. The people earning the big bucks are the ones managing the code monkeys.
Which is why all the software coding is left to Indians and Chinese.
Of course, there are the more well off code monkeys but they are likely in the US to handle the high priority jobs. -
That is hardly a fair comparison. An architect has to take examinations to be certified as an architect.Originally posted by sgdiehard:then go get a Beijing Uni degree then. ever saw a chinese construction worker replacing the job of a Singaporean architect?? -
Well... I would beg to differ. WYSIWYG can produce complex enough websites or programs (BASIC, anyone?Originally posted by Icemoon:I suppose you are talking more about the backend stuffs? Obviously we can't expect J2EE to be done by a group of designers right?
But say, for example, the frontend for .NET. It is now possible for designers to do the frontend alone without probably writing a single line of code. I remember last time do classic ASP inject all the "Response.Write" until vomit blood. Now designers can even use AJAX without knowing how it actually works.
I was thinking of how technology is empowering those not trained in programming and how it is increasing the collaboration between programmers and designers (e.g. Microsoft Expression). ), but not customized stuffs. You will still need knowledge of them somehow if you want it to be customized. -
IBM used to sell PCs, they earn quite big bucks out of itOriginally posted by Fingolfin_Noldor:In general, companies like IBM etc. do consultancy work.
All the code monkeys are peons essentially. The people earning the big bucks are the ones managing the code monkeys.
Which is why all the software coding is left to Indians and Chinese.
Of course, there are the more well off code monkeys but they are likely in the US to handle the high priority jobs.
Then the trend changes
They shifted to 'soft skill' consultancy
Now they sold off their PC unit coz its no longer their focus.
This is one role model of how organizations can shift into new money-making domains as the climate changes, and a good example for Gazelle to see that as IT changes, it does not mean that its the end of the world for IT people. -
Manufacturing PCs is considered low and high cost and low profit. And against HP and Dell who have streamlined their operations to the extent they can make profits out of it, they figured they would make more money selling it off and focus on consulting work which includes processor design, system analysis etc. Processor design is interesting given that all the game consoles use IBMOriginally posted by soul_rage:IBM used to sell PCs, they earn quite big bucks out of it
Then the trend changes
They shifted to 'soft skill' consultancy
Now they sold off their PC unit coz its no longer their focus.
This is one role model of how organizations can shift into new money-making domains as the climate changes, and a good example for Gazelle to see that as IT changes, it does not mean that its the end of the world for IT people. -
Since when was I interested to talk about IT, The only reason why I am using IT as an example is because that is probably the only thing you know..Originally posted by soul_rage:who? me?
Nay, I am far up the ladder already
have not touched coding for a while already, and spend more time on management, consultancy and projects
Seriously, I think you should skip the debate on IT, coz I really think you don't have the knowledge to continue discussing further.
Just coz the lower end jobs are disappearing, doesn't mean that there are no jobs in this industry. In fact, it only serves to improve this industry, and bring it further into new heights.
Why? Becoz people are focused less and less 'low-value' work, but moving towards higher-value work, which means more heads to push the industry further into new domains.