Indonesia + Malaysia VS Singapore Scenario
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Indonesia + Malaysia VS Singapore Scenario.....
Any Comment??? -
Hold Indonesia, fight Malaysia and scream for help.
1. Hold Indonesia
RSAF must quickly obtain air superiority. Without this we are lost. Amphibious Guards battalion will conduct amphibious assaults upon Riau islands, which are the most likely staging points for any Indonesian amphibious assault upon Singapore. Once the islands are successfully assaulted, infantry and engineer units should fortify the islands against Indonesian counterattack. RSN will then need to create a maritime perimeter around Singapore to the south with air support. By doing this, Indonesia will be forced to launch any amphibious op from the south from a much greater distance, which will almost certainly fail, especially once PDF digs in. This will contain the southern threat.
2. Fight Malaysia
Simultaneously, a massive, brutal armored attack must be launched across the strait with combat engineers in support. This is the moment the SAF has been preparing for all these years. This attack should quickly bypass large urban centers and press forward to capture chokepoints in the Mersing area to cut off the combined Malaysian and Indonesia ground forces. Helimobile Guards and airborne Commandoes should be dropped ahead in the area to recce, disrupt enemy formations and call airstrikes and artillery barrages. Strategic objectives such as water pumping works and power generation stations will be captured intact as far as possible by follow on infantry units. Surround urban areas and persuade isolated enemy units inside without food, water or power to surrender. Contain them and all civilians there until they do, or attack if we have access to overwhelming force. We cannot afford pitched urban combat, and we are not fighting a war of occupation. Once the Mersing line is taken, dig in, and patrol aggressively to disrupt any enemy counterattacks and keep out guerillas and infiltrators. Do the utmost to limit civilian casualties and damage to civilian infrastructure.
3. Scream for help
We can take ground, but we cannot hold it for long. Tell any foreign media who will listen how much we're being bullied. Tell the UN how much we are being bullied. Tell the US how much we are being bullied. Tell Malaysia and Indonesia how much we are bullying them. Agree to withdraw back to Singapore in return for peace treaties, prisoner exchanges, war reparations and the creation of a DMZ around Singapore patrolled by UN peacekeepers. Make noises about a push to KL if they refuse. Cross fingers and hope for the best.
How does that sound? -
IT sounds premature.....Originally posted by dkhoo:Hold Indonesia, fight Malaysia and scream for help.
1. Hold Indonesia
RSAF must quickly obtain air superiority. Without this we are lost. Amphibious Guards battalion will conduct amphibious assaults upon Riau islands, which are the most likely staging points for any Indonesian amphibious assault upon Singapore. Once the islands are successfully assaulted, infantry and engineer units should fortify the islands against Indonesian counterattack. RSN will then need to create a maritime perimeter around Singapore to the south with air support. By doing this, Indonesia will be forced to launch any amphibious op from the south from a much greater distance, which will almost certainly fail, especially once PDF digs in. This will contain the southern threat.
2. Fight Malaysia
Simultaneously, a massive, brutal armored attack must be launched across the strait with combat engineers in support. This is the moment the SAF has been preparing for all these years. This attack should quickly bypass large urban centers and press forward to capture chokepoints in the Mersing area to cut off the combined Malaysian and Indonesia ground forces. Helimobile Guards and airborne Commandoes should be dropped ahead in the area to recce, disrupt enemy formations and call airstrikes and artillery barrages. Strategic objectives such as water pumping works and power generation stations will be captured intact as far as possible by follow on infantry units. Surround urban areas and persuade isolated enemy units inside without food, water or power to surrender. Contain them and all civilians there until they do, or attack if we have access to overwhelming force. We cannot afford pitched urban combat, and we are not fighting a war of occupation. Once the Mersing line is taken, dig in, and patrol aggressively to disrupt any enemy counterattacks and keep out guerillas and infiltrators. Do the utmost to limit civilian casualties and damage to civilian infrastructure.
3. Scream for help
We can take ground, but we cannot hold it for long. Tell any foreign media who will listen how much we're being bullied. Tell the UN how much we are being bullied. Tell the US how much we are being bullied. Tell Malaysia and Indonesia how much we are bullying them. Agree to withdraw back to Singapore in return for peace treaties, prisoner exchanges, war reparations and the creation of a DMZ around Singapore patrolled by UN peacekeepers. Make noises about a push to KL if they refuse. Cross fingers and hope for the best.
How does that sound?
how SAF moves... will depend on how TNI and MAF move....
we cannot simply say we will wack riau island in the event of indonesia declaring war on singapore.... there are many factors to consider....
afterall... singapore is not a trigger happy nation... we dont pull out our gun and simply bang anyone we dont like...
IF however... for some reason that the SAF might wish to take the pre-emptive strike... that is to say... if SAF decides to move first... we will still need to know TNI and MAF forces disposition, logistic, location and their respective strength and weakness...
IN any case... your idea of wacking malaysia up to mersing line would lead to SAF defeat.... as TNI might simply pour reinforcement into malaysia to help MAF through kedah from sumatra or trengganu from natula islands...
A war of attrition would ensue and SAF would be depleted over time...
Secondly... your idea of attacking riau island would also result in unneccesarry SAF causaulty and dilute SAF strength plus putting SAF on a 2 front war scenario... not very good an idea...
lastly.... to a giant nation like indonesia and to islamic nations under the OIC... these islamic nations are not gonna give a damn about the UN... as far as they see it... the UN is a white man, infidel organization with the aim of oppressing the islamic nations... if not the mere proxies of the world 5 nuclear power.
they are not gonna budge over any UN resolution without some persuasive firepower..... which could take some serious time lag to achieve... example... it took UN nearly 1 year after the invasion of kuwait to finally begin its war with iraq...
finally... a UN resolution, a cease fire and UN peacekeepers are not the solution to the problem between nations in a state of war... it merely postpone the conflict or simply changes the conflict to a different form... such as suicide bombers and vigilante guerrila attacks like the PLOs... SINGAPORE will still be finished...
to win..... there is a way... but obviously i am not interested in expounding that here... but understandably... i would consider nothing less than total occupation of peninsula malaysia, disarming it and then break malaysia up into a dozen new state if not more... i might even consider some rapid demographical changes to make sure that malaysia will never reappear.... -
Oh... as an additional deterrent...
IF the war is started by a particular ruling party of malaysia... lets say if UMNO started the war...
obviously it goes without saying that these are the people who must answer for their actions... either we can bring them to the international court... or we might just have to ensure that they will forever be in peace with singapore... one way or the other...
understandably... the govt of malaysia must not be left unscathed... afterall.. as leaders... they must be held responsible for their actions, contributions and watever motives for putting the lives on both sides of the causeway in danger...
As war is not fun and people certainly do die in the event of such an unfortunate occurence... it must be logical to think that 90 percent of singaporeans as well as malaysians would abhor the possibility of going to war against each other.... the remainning 10 percents are those either profiteers or allah-teers... who seeks either fortunes in battle like scavengers or a heaven full of virgins to rape in their after-lives...
Thus... people goes to war because they are misled by their govt through disinformation or compelled to go to war out of fear or out of hate... both are usually tactics used by leaders of nations to instill a sense of loyalty and war-drum beating... as such, if malaysian leaders trigger a war with singapore... they must be deal with harhly and firmly... no second chance...as a warning to others that leaders cannot simply call for war and then wash their hand in blood in the name of peace, freedom or watever allah-allah ali-bah-bah.....
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Of course it is true that the actual battle plan will depend on the situation we actually encounter. However, since this is a scenario, I am only quoting the most likely response that I think the SAF would take. Any real response would probably be some variation on it.
It is an open secret that SAF relies upon preemptive strike to defend Singapore. If there is even the threat of war, we must strike immediately to create the strategic depth we need to defend Singapore. So, actually yes, we are a rather trigger-happy nation in a manner of speaking. Once we announce that we feel that we have been threatened with war, the other side has about three hours before the 50k active duty NSmen and regulars begin their assault to convince us that we should not attack. That is why Singapore has been called a "doomsday machine" and why our neighbors make so much noise about our military posture.
An attack on Riau would be costly and dilute our strength, but it would unfortunately also be completely necessary. We cannot allow the enemy to gain a foothold so close to the mainland. Standoff weapons like MLRS (and maybe even ERBB artillery shells) can even be launched from there directly into Singapore and it is an ideal staging point for ambhibious invasion. I disagree that a Riau invasion can be skipped.
In any protracted conflict against both Malaysia and Indonesia, we will eventually lose if we are drawn into a war of attrition. That is why my suggested response aims for a rapid diplomatic resolution to the conflict. By conducting a limited military action, with clearly defensive goals and minimizing civilian casualties, it is easier to present our case that we are the victims. By quickly taking and maintaining the initiative, we force the other parties to the negotiating table from a position of strength.
You suggest annexing Malaysia. This would be a military victory, but a total and devastating political defeat. That would kill Singapore more surely than a nuclear attack. Such actions are simply not acceptable any more. At the very least, we will become an embargoed and impoverished pariah state and face decades of a new Confrontasi against our neighbors. At the worst, we will face an armed international coalition, with the US at its head. Take your pick. I'd rather not. I do not even want to ask what you mean by inducing a "rapid demographical change" in annexed Malaysia.
In fact, the problem of "what do we do once we get there" is the biggest problem the SAF faces. We can easily defeat our neighbors militarily, but we have no follow-on option. We cannot hold their land, especially in the face of a hostile populace. Remember that every NS soldier out there means one less worker at home -- we cannot fight protracted conflicts because of our force structure. While decades of uneasy UN mediated peace is not ideal, it is probably the best option, if combined with a heavily policed DMZ. Our neighbors would accede to such a peace because the alternative is far worse -- we can DESTROY them if we wanted to (though we would destroy ourselves in the process -- doomsday machine again). That is why even when we are crying for peace, we must also bay for war.
The issue of war reparations after a war is always thorny. Is the goal justice, or welfare? It might be just to drag out all the responsible parties and have them shot, but it might lead to more misunderstanding, hatred and eventually suffering. The reverse may also be true. And do not be too quick in assuming that it would be the other side that starts the conflict. It may be our side, or neither side, or both sides, or even a third or fourth party. Things are never that clear cut anyway. I won't try to cover this issue since what kind of war reparations (or war trials) should be sought after a conflict depends too strongly on the specifics of the conflict.
The damage from any such conflict would be incalculable. Fortunately, such a conflict is also very unlikely. All three sides know how futile the Mexican standoff that would result would be, and there is no advantage to any party to start a war. Nevertheless, it is an interesting scenario from a geopolitical standpoint. -
Originally posted by dkhoo:Of course it is true that the actual battle plan will depend on the situation we actually encounter. However, since this is a scenario, I am only quoting the most likely response that I think the SAF would take. Any real response would probably be some variation on it.
that is true
It is an open secret that SAF relies upon preemptive strike to defend Singapore. If there is even the threat of war, we must strike immediately to create the strategic depth we need to defend Singapore. So, actually yes, we are a rather trigger-happy nation in a manner of speaking. Once we announce that we feel that we have been threatened with war, the other side has about three hours before the 50k active duty NSmen and regulars begin their assault to convince us that we should not attack. That is why Singapore has been called a "doomsday machine" and why our neighbors make so much noise about our military posture. thats just mere posturing... the truth is that singapore is not a trigger happy nation.. if we are... malaysia would have been burned to the ground quite a few times by now... the fact that malaysia constantly plays up the singapore bogey man card clearly reflect their understanding that singapore would not hastily attack them as long as their actions are within a certain confined limits... on top of that... at times, when the anti-singapore sentiments begins to boil-over in malaysia... the malaysia govt, defense minister as well as their PMs have always took the extra effort to declare malaysia's non-intention of going to war with singapore. it would appears to me that SAF is indeed well respected among the malaysian govt officials and as long as they stand behind the line... SAF will not attempt to burn them at the stake anytime soon...
An attack on Riau would be costly and dilute our strength, but it would unfortunately also be completely necessary. We cannot allow the enemy to gain a foothold so close to the mainland. Standoff weapons like MLRS (and maybe even ERBB artillery shells) can even be launched from there directly into Singapore and it is an ideal staging point for ambhibious invasion. I disagree that a Riau invasion can be skipped. i believe that TNI currently do not posses a weapon that can hit singapore from riau... the closest island being 40km away.. while it is no doubt a potential staging area for an amphibious assualt against singapore.. TNI have not the air power nor the sea lift capability to conduct a major operation against singapore.. at least not across a huge expanse of water... On the other hand.. singapore do posses weapons that have ranges up to the riau islands and if needed... surely the use of such weapons is a better option than to send our men onto a soil with no direct land link... I believe that the RSN would prefer to lay mines or even use its submarines to blockade riau island than contemplate about the logistic nitemare of having to support an amphibious operation on riau island. even the RSAF would probably opt to conduct air-strike mission on riau than CAP and CAS for singapore troops on riau island...
In any protracted conflict against both Malaysia and Indonesia, we will eventually lose if we are drawn into a war of attrition. That is why my suggested response aims for a rapid diplomatic resolution to the conflict. By conducting a limited military action, with clearly defensive goals and minimizing civilian casualties, it is easier to present our case that we are the victims. By quickly taking and maintaining the initiative, we force the other parties to the negotiating table from a position of strength. how could you force the enemy to the negotiating table when you tell them that i will not invade further then the mersing line???? if the malaysian knew singapore would simply stop at mersing line... they would not have the urgency nor the need to go to the negotiating table so soon... afterall... they will still have 10 states to draw resources and manpower from to continue a war of attrition against singapore... in my view... a swift attack aim at total obliteration of the state of malaysia would then be sufficient incentives to motivate the malaysian to the negotiating table and resolve the problem at hand ASAP or risk seeing their entire nation burned to ashes... the key to resolving a conflict is SPEED not negotiation per se.. negotiation is the method, war is a method as well.. the key however is the SPEED... if we can wipe out malaysia in one day.. resolve the problem in a week... and have malaysia chopped up in a month... we would beat the UN, the US and watever stupid coalitions to a peaceful resolution... before the situation drags out and the problem becomes unmanageable.... we need to end the war fast... at the speed that the UN resolves their problem... we would be old man by the time those buffoons at the UN finally gets their acts together...
You suggest annexing Malaysia. This would be a military victory, but a total and devastating political defeat. That would kill Singapore more surely than a nuclear attack. Such actions are simply not acceptable any more. At the very least, we will become an embargoed and impoverished pariah state and face decades of a new Confrontasi against our neighbors. At the worst, we will face an armed international coalition, with the US at its head. Take your pick. I'd rather not. I do not even want to ask what you mean by inducing a "rapid demographical change" in annexed Malaysia. I did not suggest annexing malaysia... i merely suggested that the malaysian people be given a total freedom of choice as to watever new nations that they desire to built... but understandably, in a heterogenous nation like malaysia... it wont be too far fetch to believe that a few dozen nations might emerge as a result... there could be a christian malaysia, chinese malaysia, indian malaysia and watever stupid malaysia... even the sultans can reclaim their authority and be real sultans like their ancestors.... the only conditions is that UMNO be disbanded, barred and its members..... terminated. while the state of malaysia shall never be reformed ever again.... rapid demographical changes could simply means internal migration of the population as according to their desire of which type of lifes they prefer....once there are dozens of new and different malaysia borned out of the ashes... without doubt... some people may prefer to live in that or this state according to their respective wishes.... I dont encourage massacre....if that is wat you think i implied.
In fact, the problem of "what do we do once we get there" is the biggest problem the SAF faces. We can easily defeat our neighbors militarily, but we have no follow-on option. We cannot hold their land, especially in the face of a hostile populace. Remember that every NS soldier out there means one less worker at home -- we cannot fight protracted conflicts because of our force structure. While decades of uneasy UN mediated peace is not ideal, it is probably the best option, if combined with a heavily policed DMZ. Our neighbors would accede to such a peace because the alternative is far worse -- we can DESTROY them if we wanted to (though we would destroy ourselves in the process -- doomsday machine again). That is why even when we are crying for peace, we must also bay for war. then SPEED is the essence in a war... we need to move fast and we should never stop at mersing or watever stupid line.... in my view... we dont wipe that UMNO govt out... they will just keep coming back at us like the weeds that they are... please understand... malaysia and its people are not the ones would starts a war with singapore... but the Leaders and the roots of those leaders is called UMNO... they dont go... they will always come back at us... its either them or us...
The issue of war reparations after a war is always thorny. Is the goal justice, or welfare? It might be just to drag out all the responsible parties and have them shot, but it might lead to more misunderstanding, hatred and eventually suffering. The reverse may also be true. And do not be too quick in assuming that it would be the other side that starts the conflict. It may be our side, or neither side, or both sides, or even a third or fourth party. Things are never that clear cut anyway. I won't try to cover this issue since what kind of war reparations (or war trials) should be sought after a conflict depends too strongly on the specifics of the conflict. war reparation is unncessary..... because... i doubt malaysia will have anything left to give us after we are through hurling rains of fire on their land... but PEACE should be the ultimate aim... NOT reparations... in a settlement. secondly... it doesnt matter who started the war... the important thing is to end it fast and do watever is neccesarry to prevent another war in the future...
The damage from any such conflict would be incalculable. Fortunately, such a conflict is also very unlikely. All three sides know how futile the Mexican standoff that would result would be, and there is no advantage to any party to start a war. Nevertheless, it is an interesting scenario from a geopolitical standpoint. unfortunately... events can change like the weather... unexpectably...... its best to keep all options open then just simply bite on that mersing line... -
[Amphibious Guards battalion will conduct amphibious assaults upon Riau islands]Originally posted by dkhoo:Hold Indonesia, fight Malaysia and scream for help.
1. Hold Indonesia
RSAF must quickly obtain air superiority. Without this we are lost. Amphibious Guards battalion will conduct amphibious assaults upon Riau islands, which are the most likely staging points for any Indonesian amphibious assault upon Singapore. Once the islands are successfully assaulted, infantry and engineer units should fortify the islands against Indonesian counterattack. RSN will then need to create a maritime perimeter around Singapore to the south with air support. By doing this, Indonesia will be forced to launch any amphibious op from the south from a much greater distance, which will almost certainly fail, especially once PDF digs in. This will contain the southern threat.
2. Fight Malaysia
Simultaneously, a massive, brutal armored attack must be launched across the strait with combat engineers in support. This is the moment the SAF has been preparing for all these years. This attack should quickly bypass large urban centers and press forward to capture chokepoints in the Mersing area to cut off the combined Malaysian and Indonesia ground forces. Helimobile Guards and airborne Commandoes should be dropped ahead in the area to recce, disrupt enemy formations and call airstrikes and artillery barrages. Strategic objectives such as water pumping works and power generation stations will be captured intact as far as possible by follow on infantry units. Surround urban areas and persuade isolated enemy units inside without food, water or power to surrender. Contain them and all civilians there until they do, or attack if we have access to overwhelming force. We cannot afford pitched urban combat, and we are not fighting a war of occupation. Once the Mersing line is taken, dig in, and patrol aggressively to disrupt any enemy counterattacks and keep out guerillas and infiltrators. Do the utmost to limit civilian casualties and damage to civilian infrastructure.
3. Scream for help
We can take ground, but we cannot hold it for long. Tell any foreign media who will listen how much we're being bullied. Tell the UN how much we are being bullied. Tell the US how much we are being bullied. Tell Malaysia and Indonesia how much we are bullying them. Agree to withdraw back to Singapore in return for peace treaties, prisoner exchanges, war reparations and the creation of a DMZ around Singapore patrolled by UN peacekeepers. Make noises about a push to KL if they refuse. Cross fingers and hope for the best.
How does that sound?
For example after the war can Singapore keep the Riau islands or Singapore must give the Riau islands back to Indonesia?
If Malaysia and Indonesia started the war first and the war is over can Singapore ask for compensation?
If the war is over and Singapore still exist as a country. Malaysia and Indonesia are not able to land their troop on Singapore. Their bombers, fighter jets, artillery and MLRS are not able to hit Singapore becuase SAF disrupt them. Every building and infrastructure in Singapore are not damaged but a lots of Singaporean are killed. Singapore still some money left in her reserves. Is it possible to prevent the Singapore economy from collapsing. May be restart Singapore economy?
Your helpful comment Please. -
Indonesia cant even defend itself.Armed with inferior armnament and weaponary an invasion by singaporean force now could have severely devastated and demoralise the indonesian forces.Anyway they were already demoralised since 1997 economic recession.
certainly the malaysian don't want their house being wrecked by singapore fighter jets.I say SAF thinktank has already done enough preparation for sudden invasion by malaysia units.It looks to me its planned like a triangle if you don't believe draw a circle around each base which has singapore presence in it.then look for yourself.
Its them who will be crying for help in the end
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Yes... it is possible..... but until our next generations grew up and take over... we will need to rely on foreigners to keep the economy working...Originally posted by want to know:[Amphibious Guards battalion will conduct amphibious assaults upon Riau islands]
For example after the war can Singapore keep the Riau islands or Singapore must give the Riau islands back to Indonesia? do you think indonesia would allow us to keep the riau islands and still maintain a peaceful relationship with us? although i cannot say for sure if we can keep the riau island... who knows... indonesia could break up admist the war. so its pretty hard to say... which is why i find it a waste to send our men there in the first place.... unless indonesia imploded... else i wont even bother sticking that flag of ours on the riau soil...
If Malaysia and Indonesia started the war first and the war is over can Singapore ask for compensation? I believe that the best option is..... or solution is..... that there are no more malaysia or indonesia for us to seek compensation.... the complete demise of our enemies should be considered as the best compensation..... but in the event that all 3 nation survived... i think the ability to seek compensation would depend on who has the utmost upper hand in the conflict....
If the war is over and Singapore still exist as a country. Malaysia and Indonesia are not able to land their troop on Singapore. Their bombers, fighter jets, artillery and MLRS are not able to hit Singapore becuase SAF disrupt them. Every building and infrastructure in Singapore are not damaged but a lots of Singaporean are killed. Singapore still some money left in her reserves. Is it possible to prevent the Singapore economy from collapsing. May be restart Singapore economy?
Your helpful comment Please. -
I am not familiar with military tactics or miltary related stuff, but all i know is that a war between us, indo and malaysia is quite unlikely.
For one thing is cost, the other is aftermath consequences, especially to the one that initiates the war. And also i dont see why indonesia will collaborate with malaysia to attack us (correct me if i am wrong here), unless recently there are problems between the 2 governments, or indonesia wants to bring up an old problem just an excuse to wipe out a neighbour who is many times smaller but is enjoying better times then they are, that i do not know.
but at this point of time i dun see that there is need that indonesia will attack us...correct my ignorance at any part of what i wrote. -
are you kidding?
malaysia can take on singapore alone...without TNI... -
What a moron. Refer to the topic post. You don't have to continue to show us your inability to read and interpret English passages, I have already proved that a long time ago.Originally posted by Innocent_Malaysian:are you kidding?
malaysia can take on singapore alone...without TNI...
Heehee... Malaysia can take on Singapore alone? Can... Malaysia will only lose their armed forces along with half of the peninsula only mah, no big deal rite? -
Remember folks -- this is a scenario, not a prediction or a threat of any kind. It is also fortunately a very unlikely scenario.
tripwire, you are so hawkish, it makes the Bush administration look like softhearted wussies
I still disagree with you. I do not believe that Malaysia and Indonesia would attack us in such a suicidal and fanatical manner that they will not come to the negotiating table when faced with the threat of destruction. I do not think that actually destroying them would be necessary (especially since we'd destroy ourselves in the process). In particular, I disagree with your disapproval of UMNO. I actually like UMNO -- they are relatively rational, reasonable and cooperative. They have more of a tendency toward politics than the PAP at home, and still use Singapore as a bogeyman. However, that's because there are NO politics in Singapore, making Singaporeans very thin skinned (we are a lot less democratic than the guys up north). As far as these things go, I think that UMNO is OK. The alternatives (e.g. PAS) are far worse.
As a side note, 40 km is the range of 155mm ERBB artillery shells fired from at least 52 calibre tubes, so it would be barely possible to conduct artillery bombardment of Singapore from the Riau islands. At the very least, Jurong island might be hit, which would be very bad! An invasion of the Riau islands would definitely be required in any conflict where there is a southern threat.
Innocent_Malaysian, you really need to do a bit of reading up before you post about military matters here. Singapore alone has nearly twice as many warplanes and tanks than Malaysia and Indonesia *combined*, and our equipment is more capable and better maintained. We have more than twice the number of troops as Malaysia. Our navy has more anti-ship missile tubes than both nations combined, and our missiles are more accurate and have longer range. There is a lot more, but I've said enough. The only nation in SEA that is stronger than Singapore militarily is Thailand. I can see that you're trying to be patriotic, but the best way to do that is to confine your discussions to reality.
want to know, whether or not we could keep any territory we capture in the course of defending ourself depends on what form diplomacy takes when peace is negotiated. It is unlikely though, since the UN Charter forbids it. If anything, the land may be owned by no one (that's what a DMZ basically is).
Again, while we may be able to defeat our neighbors militarily, it would serve no purpose. In the process we would destroy ourselves. It is a much smaller version of MAD -- mutually assured destruction. -
he is just some kid..showing patriotic feeling toward his country
let him say watever he wants..he n tat Harimau r just coward...when rebuke dun dare to fight back.. -
They got nothing to fight back with what. Care to provide them with white flags so at least they have a chance?Originally posted by NathanG5:he is just some kid..showing patriotic feeling toward his country
let him say watever he wants..he n tat Harimau r just coward...when rebuke dun dare to fight back.. -
IF you believe that... then we have lost the war... before it even begin... SAF aims to wack our enemy and still ensure that singapore is still around for many generations to come... we are not a nuke bomb...Originally posted by dkhoo:Remember folks -- this is a scenario, not a prediction or a threat of any kind. It is also fortunately a very unlikely scenario.
tripwire, you are so hawkish, it makes the Bush administration look like softhearted wussies I still disagree with you. oh..... you break my heart.... i am afterall a very peaceful man with strong desire for peace and freedom... i have no intentions of carrying out a genocide nor a scorch-earth policy to be frank.... 
I do not believe that Malaysia and Indonesia would attack us in such a suicidal and fanatical manner that they will not come to the negotiating table when faced with the threat of destruction. well... i certainly hope that they would come to the negotiating table soon... else SAF might choose not to turn up for negotiation if SAF felt that the demise of MAF and TNI is at hand... while i sincerely believe that the best outcome for singapore is the demise of our enemies... i do not however subscribe to only one particular endings alone... i would have truely hoped that our neighbours would have resolve the problems at hand without even going to war in the first place... but once a war is initiated... we can only hope for the best... that our enemies realise their follies sooner rather then later... BUT i must say... the only way to a quick peaceful resolution is to make the enemies believe that other then coming to the negotiating table quickly... the alternative is their pitiful demise... by stopping at mersing line... who can guarantee the enemies would now offer to negotiate in honesty and openly?? wat if they use the negotiation to buy time, to reposition their forces or to resupply their units?? wont we be stupid to stop in the first place?? wont we be prolonging a war unneccessary? wont such a move result in even higher casualty rate?? clearly... nations dont go to war on a moment of rashness... its PREMEDITATED, its objectives is non other then to seek a resolution through force of arms... how then can we act so kind as to give them the opportunities in the midst of a war?? remember... when you go to the negotiating table... the time you spend at the negotiating table are paid with the blood of our men... remember too... that if the problem could be resolved before the war... its obvious we wouldnt be in the messy war now.. and we certainly doubt... how soon would a peace through compromise would last... remember germany... they lost WW1... but deep now.. they simmered for revenge... and WW2 came along...
I do not think that actually destroying them would be necessary (especially since we'd destroy ourselves in the process). There are people in this world who... do not reciprocate the kindness shown to them by their enemies.... there are also people who bites the hand that feeds them.... in a world of the strong makan the weak.... your kindness, your benevolence and your wisdom would not be appreciated by the enemy... for in their mind.... through the endless brainwashing by mass media.... YOU... who are THEIR ENEMY... is nothing more then a BEAST, An ABOMINATION and an EVIL. YOU are that something... they cannot trust, cannot negotiate.. something that needs to be removed like a CANCER... you are NO LONGER A HUMAN BEING in their eyes...
In particular, I disagree with your disapproval of UMNO. I actually like UMNO -- they are relatively rational, reasonable and cooperative. as compare to the orang utan or as compare to the hyena?
They have more of a tendency toward politics than the PAP at home, and still use Singapore as a bogeyman. However, that's because there are NO politics in Singapore, making Singaporeans very thin skinned (we are a lot less democratic than the guys up north). FIRST.... just because malaysia is more politically dynamic... that does not give them THE RIGHT to bash singapore... why dont they go and bash thailand or even indonesia?? SECOND... just because we have NO politics in singapore... THAT does not means we should simply take their insults at us... Lastly.... DEMOCRACY is a measure of space... in singapore... your space of freedom of action is limited due to the presence of other humans... NOT the govt.... IN FACT... you can be a free man in a north korea mountain where there are NO people to limit your actions, no one to question you, no rules to follow, not even the need to hold back your fart.... like we singaporeans on occasions lhave to do so when in a lift or in a crowded bus would tried desperately to avoid the embarassment....
As far as these things go, I think that UMNO is OK. The alternatives (e.g. PAS) are far worse. IF PAS is the devil... UMNO is no angels either... as far as i sees it... as long as UMNO keeps the peace... everyones is OK... BUT if UMNO starts the war... hell.. i think your perception of UMNO is better then PAS would change markedly...
As a side note, 40 km is the range of 155mm ERBB artillery shells fired from at least 52 calibre tubes, so it would be barely possible to conduct artillery bombardment of Singapore from the Riau islands. At the very least, Jurong island might be hit, which would be very bad! An invasion of the Riau islands would definitely be required in any conflict where there is a southern threat. therein lies the key to your answer.... SINGAPORE SAF is the only nation in the world ( as far as i know) who have in its orbat.... a fully operational 52cal FH2000 155mm arty gun... TNI DOES not... possess any 52cal arty gun... thus... my last post... i stated that SAF can hit riau..but from riau... TNI cannot hit singapore....
Again, while we may be able to defeat our neighbors militarily, it would serve no purpose. In the process we would destroy ourselves. It is a much smaller version of MAD -- mutually assured destruction.
The purpose of fighting... is for the chance to live... not the chance to die... the aim of war is to seek survival... not destruction... I am Hawkish... but wat are you?? suicidal? -
Hey, why is it always Singapore Vs Malaysia Vs Indonesia? Haven't you heard of diplomacy? Why does Singapore have to fight Malaysia or Indonesia. If everyone cuts their hatred for every other country, is it not possible for Malaysia + Singapore + Indonesia = Powerful Force. Why can't we combine forces to become an even more powerful regional force amidst the threats of foreign nations. Since we are so close together, can we just stop comparing!?! -_-
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Why does everyone come to forums?Originally posted by MyAhGongLove2SeeBird:Hey, why is it always Singapore Vs Malaysia Vs Indonesia? Haven't you heard of diplomacy? Why does Singapore have to fight Malaysia or Indonesia. If everyone cuts their hatred for every other country, is it not possible for Malaysia + Singapore + Indonesia = Powerful Force. Why can't we combine forces to become an even more powerful regional force amidst the threats of foreign nations. Since we are so close together, can we just stop comparing!?! -_- -
lolz
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That is a hell of a big "if". Think about it, what is Singapore's greatest threat militarily? Its definitely not Thailand, not Brunei either. To suggest countries from out of the region would be ridiculous. Whos left? Indonesia and Malaysia naturally. Malaysia + Singapore + Indonesia = Powerful Force? Please, Malaysia and Indonesia combined won't even have half the SAF's numbers. The reason we are comparing is exactly because we are so close together. You wanna compare Singapore with China or USA? Go ahead.Originally posted by MyAhGongLove2SeeBird:If everyone cuts their hatred for every other country, is it not possible for Malaysia + Singapore + Indonesia = Powerful Force. Why can't we combine forces to become an even more powerful regional force amidst the threats of foreign nations. Since we are so close together, can we just stop comparing!?! -_- -
OK, tripwire, you've made yourself clear. I guess we just have to agree to disagree
I simply am less paranoid about our neighbors than you and do believe that they will behave decently (or at least rationally) if any conflict occurs. However, if the situation becomes critical, then I agree that the doomsday machine will have to go into action 
Actually, an equally interesting scenario would be SEA vs China, centered around the Spratleys. Right now, this is very unlikely, since China does not even have the power projection capability to invade Taiwan (their probable first priority). However, if this changes, it would be interesting to consider this.
Yet another interesting scenario is Thailand vs Malaysia. As many of you know, southern Thailand suffers from some unrest since it is a mostly Muslim region in a largely Buddhist nation. If this region decides to secede to Malaysia, ethnic violence flares up, and the Malaysian Armed Forces decide to intervene, such a limited conflict is conceivable. Incidentally, the Malaysian media also use Thailand and even Indonesia as bogeymen, not just Singapore. This is business as usual in most democracies. Dirty business, but still business.
The last scenario that is possible is Malaysia vs Indonesia, or Brunei + Malaysia vs Indonesia. This might be the result of the central government in Java losing control, or being toppled in a coup, and the various provinces and islands splintering into many smaller officially or unofficially autonomous bodies. Once such a Pandora's box opens, East Malaysia may be under low level siege from numerous irregulars, and Brunei may get dragged in. Singapore may then pile on, since we are allies with Brunei and friends with Malaysia. This would be a guerilla war with onerous rules of engagement -- Vietnam writ large. This is actually the kind of fight that SAF is really bad at, and TNI is really good at. Again, interesting to consider, even if President Megawati's government seems solid at present. -
China does not have the power projection to invade Taiwan??
u sure anot?? -
I doubt Singapore would get herself involved. Singapore has always been relatively quiet during regional turmoils, and I don't see any significant advantages in joining such a war. Maybe we'll get the Riau Islands, but very unlikely. As mentioned, SAF is not "built" to fight a prolonged jungle war, and to do so could be disastrous.Originally posted by dkhoo:The last scenario that is possible is Malaysia vs Indonesia, or Brunei + Malaysia vs Indonesia. This might be the result of the central government in Java losing control, or being toppled in a coup, and the various provinces and islands splintering into many smaller officially or unofficially autonomous bodies. Once such a Pandora's box opens, East Malaysia may be under low level siege from numerous irregulars, and Brunei may get dragged in. Singapore may then pile on, since we are allies with Brunei and friends with Malaysia. This would be a guerilla war with onerous rules of engagement -- Vietnam writ large. This is actually the kind of fight that SAF is really bad at, and TNI is really good at. Again, interesting to consider, even if President Megawati's government seems solid at present.
From what I see, Indonesia won't have a problem with someone else. The war that is most likely to happen will be their internal uprisings. If lets say Indonesia sends its troops overseas for war, there is bound to be rising tensions in the country. With their armed forces actively deployed elsewhere, Indonesia would literally eat itself out, so I doubt they would be of any "threat". -
Oh, one small correction, tripwire. We were the 1st country in the world to have a towed 52 cal 155mm artillery piece in our orbat, the really nice FH2000. However, many nations now have this weapon, and it is not hard to obtain it. We are no longer the only country to manufacture towed 52 cal 155mm artillery either. In addition, many countries had self-propelled (SP) 52 cal 155mm artillery before us, just not towed pieces. The US is one example.
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I may be ignorant on that issue... But hell, China would swim their troops across that narrow straits if they have to.Originally posted by NathanG5:China does not have the power projection to invade Taiwan??
u sure anot??