National Day Rally 2007.
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The problem now is not about the many people who did well and went into masters, but rather those that did not fare as well. One is already too many in our fast-paced, elitist society.Originally posted by Gazelle:I disagree with what you said, the reason why we are having a 4 university is mainly to address the problem that Poly grad are facing for so many years, ie. finding a place in local university.
I do know of many people who did very well in their career with just diploma education and some of them have skipped degree all together and went straight for master program after gaining a few years of working experience
Having extra universities do help only to a certain extent. Many of the slots are still taken by foreign students. Just come to NUS and have a look, and compare it to an earlier time period. There are much more foreign students around. Singapore aims to be an education hub to attract foreign students and professors. There are still many who could not attend university, due to both grades and money.
One more case (I shall not name who). He knows his grades are sufficient for part time bachelor engineering degree. His parents could not afford full time uni because quite an amount of their CPF has been used for his poly education. Thus, he needs to go out into the working world (with 1.2k salary a month excluding cpf contribution) and starts to save up to pay back the CPF and for his possible future uni studies. How long do you think he would need to stay in this state? -
I took the life table of an equivalent Chinese race (Taipei) and calculated the gains or losses that would result from the government implementing a compulsory life annuity policy.
It seems that if they implement this exploit, they would gain approximately $2.5 billions from the serfs. Correction: The initial population size from the statistical table is 100,000 at 1 y.o., but Singapore's population size is 4.5 million, so they might actually earn much more than $2.5 billions.
*** Assumptions, initial population of 100,000, the survivors of 31,627 @ age 85 y.o. lives to 100 y.o. (very optimistic assumption), interest rate at 3%, monthly payout $500 ($6,000 p.a.)
Source: Life Table -
eagle,Originally posted by eagle:The problem now is not about the many people who did well and went into masters, but rather those that did not fare as well. One is already too many in our fast-paced, elitist society.
Having extra universities do help only to a certain extent. Many of the slots are still taken by foreign students. Just come to NUS and have a look, and compare it to an earlier time period. There are much more foreign students around. Singapore aims to be an education hub to attract foreign students and professors. There are still many who could not attend university, due to both grades and money.
One more case (I shall not name who). He knows his grades are sufficient for part time bachelor engineering degree. His parents could not afford full time uni because quite an amount of their CPF has been used for his poly education. Thus, he needs to go out into the working world (with 1.2k salary a month excluding cpf contribution) and starts to save up to pay back the CPF and for his possible future uni studies. How long do you think he would need to stay in this state?
1) I am not trying to argue that the world today is perfect. What we should be discussing is if our government's initiative to have a 4 university will help the lower income and the poly grad to get uni education. Yes or no?
2) If I am you, I will strongly advice your friend to continue working and gain some working experience instead of rushing for a degree because a uni degree cannot substitute working experience and it doesnt guarantee that you will earn more than a poly grad. -
please stop showing us those meaningless statistic, especially if you dont know what you are talking abot.Originally posted by maurizio13:to be continued -
1) To some, yes. To some, no. That's what I meant. It's to those who this does not help at all that it mattersOriginally posted by Gazelle:eagle,
1) I am not trying to argue that the world today is perfect. What we should be discussing is if our government's initiative to have a 4 university will help the lower income and the poly grad to get uni education. Yes or no?
2) If I am you, I will strongly advice your friend to continue working and gain some working experience instead of rushing for a degree because a uni degree cannot substitute working experience and it doesnt guarantee that you will earn more than a poly grad.
2) Related to 1). Did the government managed to help him? Any new policies that come out recently helped? $1.2k a month is not really a lot of money... He has an poly engineering degree, but the jobs he found are related to maintenance. These type of experience are very different from jobs requiring uni experience. Yet if he don't continue to upgrade, he will be left behind! He will be part of the "lower income" group for the rest of his life if he maintains at this state. Current statistics do show that uni grads earn at least $2.4k, twice his current amount. -
1) Is $1.2K the average salary for ENGINEERING diploma grad? btw, what is a poly engineering degree?Originally posted by eagle:1) To some, yes. To some, no. That's what I meant. It's to those who this does not help at all that it matters
2) Related to 1). Did the government managed to help him? Any new policies that come out recently helped? $1.2k a month is not really a lot of money... He has an poly engineering degree, but the jobs he found are related to maintenance. These type of experience are very different from jobs requiring uni experience. Yet if he don't continue to upgrade, he will be left behind! He will be part of the "lower income" group for the rest of his life if he maintains at this state. Current statistics do show that uni grads earn at least $2.4k, twice his current amount.
2) Uni experience? What is that? To me that is just a piece of paper qualification.
3) How many years has your friend been working? What makes you think that diploma holders will end up in the lower income group? Have you forgotten the MR. Sim of creative who started the business with a diploma? -
I took the life table of an equivalent Chinese race (Taipei) and calculated the gains or losses that would result from the government implementing a compulsory life annuity policy.
It seems that if they implement this exploit, they would gain approximately $2.5 billions from the serfs. Correction: The initial population size from the statistical table is 100,000 at 1 y.o., but Singapore's population size is 4.5 million, so they might actually earn much more than $2.5 billions.
*** Assumptions, initial population of 100,000, the survivors of 31,627 @ age 85 y.o. lives to 100 y.o. (very optimistic assumption), interest rate at 3%, monthly payout is $500 ($6,000 p.a.)
Source: Life Table -
Giving poster-boy examples won't cut it in the real world.Originally posted by Gazelle:1) Is $1.2K the average salary for diploma ENGINEERING grad?
2) Uni experience? What is that? To me that is just a piece of paper qualification.
3) How many years has your friend been working? What makes you think that diploma holders will end up in the lower income group? Have you forgotten the MR. Sim of creative who started the business with a diploma?
If you think $1.2k is not the average starting pay these days for a dip. eng holder, you need to really start talking to people on the ground. -
And the serfs think that the government is generally concern about them.
I guess if you are stupid like Gazelle and lionnoisy, you will believe anything the government says. -
From the reports that I read and the recruitment section on straitstime, I have reason to believe that $1.2K is on the very lower end of the spectrum.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Giving poster-boy examples won't cut it in the real world.
If you think $1.2k is not the average starting pay these days for a dip. eng holder, you need to really start talking to people on the ground.
http://www.tp.edu.sg/ges06pr.pdf
http://www.mof.gov.sg/careers/joinus.html
http://sspwa020.sp.edu.sg/corporate/newsnpress.nsf/1f5ebec800d52eb64825679900082a71/69876189f08bffb04825711100255144?OpenDocument
May I know how many people have you spoken to? -
cut the story short. what the fcuk are you trying to tell us with that piece of statistic?Originally posted by maurizio13:And the serfs think that the government is generally concern about them.
I guess if you are stupid like Gazelle and lionnoisy, you will believe anything the government says.
and please give us 1 good reason why we should believe the statistic you have compiled? Has it been audited to be worthy of discussion? or are they meant for sheep only? -
1) I'm sure he has been actively looking for higher paying jobs...Originally posted by Gazelle:1) Is $1.2K the average salary for ENGINEERING diploma grad? btw, what is a poly engineering degree?
2) Uni experience? What is that? To me that is just a piece of paper qualification.
3) How many years has your friend been working? What makes you think that diploma holders will end up in the lower income group? Have you forgotten the MR. Sim of creative who started the business with a diploma?
2) At least it guarantees higher starting pay...
3) 4 yrs. There are always exceptions. Do we always need to take into account exceptions? There are pri sch dropouts who can be a top earner. There are chicken rice sellers (my old house there) who earned enough to start driving mercedes.
Point is, we cannot be blinded by statistics from the government, nor can we wait for any subsidies/grants from them. Exceptions are just exceptions; it does not happen on everyone. -
You can trust the government data wholesale all you want.Originally posted by Gazelle:From the reports that I read and the recruitment section on straitstime, I have reason to believe that $1.2K is on the very lower end of the spectrum.
http://www.tp.edu.sg/ges06pr.pdf
http://www.mof.gov.sg/careers/joinus.html
http://sspwa020.sp.edu.sg/corporate/newsnpress.nsf/1f5ebec800d52eb64825679900082a71/69876189f08bffb04825711100255144?OpenDocument
May I know how many people have you spoken to?
I get my information first hand from the army mates that I keep in touch with, and from those whom I have tried to secure them freelance work during the vacation.
Many of them are Elect.Engg and M.Engg dip holders, even the IT guys are only scraping 1.7k with less than 2 years working exp.
If your knowledge ain't up to date, you're not worth much extra (more for the IT chaps). That's why you see people willing to take on loans to upgrade themselves, because when you're stuck between working to save up for studies and potentially missing out, the loan payment spectre doesn't seem that terrible after all. -
Originally posted by Gazelle:cut the story short. what the fcuk are you trying to tell us with that piece of statistic?
and please give us 1 good reason why we should believe the statistic you have compiled? Has it been audited to be worthy of discussion? or are they meant for sheep only?
The life table statistics is from a reputable outside source.
The calculation is elementary, you can use your calculator to verify the calculations, don't need auditor, else I have to charge you.
It's elementary arithmetic, unless you don't know how to do arithmetic. -
The same can be said about you using your unfortunate friend as a representation of Singapore eng diploma grad wages.Originally posted by eagle:1) I'm sure he has been actively looking for higher paying jobs...
2) At least it guarantees higher starting pay...
3) 4 yrs. There are always exceptions. Do we always need to take into account exceptions? There are pri sch dropouts who can be a top earner. There are chicken rice sellers (my old house there) who earned enough to start driving mercedes.
Point is, we cannot be blinded by statistics from the government, nor can we wait for any subsidies/grants from them. Exceptions are just exceptions; it does not happen on everyone.
I disagree with you, you can only manage if things are quantifiable, or else we are all second guessing, TCSS or at best be a NATO.
"one accurate measurement is worth more than a 1000 expert opinions" -
talk to the hand!! they are listening.Originally posted by maurizio13:
The life table statistics is from a reputable outside source.
The calculation is elementary, you can use your calculator to verify the calculations, don't need auditor, else I have to charge you.
It's elementary arithmetic, unless you don't know how to do arithmetic. -
It's not using a representation. It's the job market now; why wouldn't he move to a better paying job?Originally posted by Gazelle:The same can be said about you using your unfortunate friend as a representation of Singapore eng diploma grad wages.
I disagree with you, you can only manage if things are quantifiable, or else we are all second guessing, TCSS or at best be a NATO.
"one accurate measurement is worth more than a 1000 expert opinions"
Furthermore, for everyone like my friend out there, there will most likely be a few more facing the same circumstances, i.e. colleagues getting the same amount of salary...
As I have said earlier, one case is already too many in our society -
1) Which batch of grad they belongs too?Originally posted by LazerLordz:You can trust the government data wholesale all you want.
I get my information first hand from the army mates that I keep in touch with, and from those whom I have tried to secure them freelance work during the vacation.
Many of them are Elect.Engg and M.Engg dip holders, even the IT guys are only scraping 1.7k with less than 2 years working exp.
If your knowledge ain't up to date, you're not worth much extra (more for the IT chaps). That's why you see people willing to take on loans to upgrade themselves, because when you're stuck between working to save up for studies and potentially missing out, the loan payment spectre doesn't seem that terrible after all.
2) $1.7K is 41% more than 1.2K
3) If you suspect that government are producin fake data, than I think we should investigate, because that will put the reputation of the country at stake. Do you have any prove to nail those bastard down? If you do, you might want to share it with us. -
Accuracy is not about being false or true. Methodologies differ in data gathering.Originally posted by Gazelle:1) Which batch of grad they belongs too?
2) $1.7K is 41% more than 1.2K
3) If you suspect that government are producin fake data, than I think we should investigate, because that will put the reputation of the country at stake. Do you have any prove to nail those bastard down? If you do, you might want to share it with us.
Not to mention, different survey methods and focus groups.
Don't put words in people's mouth.
Not trusting someone's data does not mean that it is fake, it merely means that one believes that the data in question by itself is not enough to form a more complete picture.
Lastly, I don't think with your credibility here, you have much chance of getting people to be chummy with you.
That's all I have to say. Go and debate with the one with wings, because this chap here has got things to do in the morning and cannot afford to wallow all night in a web forum. -
Originally posted by LazerLordz:That's all I have to say. Go and debate with the one with wings, because this chap here has got things to do in the morning and cannot afford to wallow all night in a web forum.
As a matter of fact, I was sending information at the same time about my student exchange to the coordinator to get my modules credited
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Hey, you're an Eagle, not a Night Owl..Originally posted by eagle:
As a matter of fact, I was sending information at the same time about my student exchange to the coordinator to get my modules credited
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How can you say its the job market, when there are no statistic to support your views that today's average starting pay for poly grad is 1.2K?Originally posted by eagle:It's not using a representation. It's the job market now; why wouldn't he move to a better paying job?
Furthermore, for everyone like my friend out there, there will most likely be a few more facing the same circumstances, i.e. colleagues getting the same amount of salary...
As I have said earlier, one case is already too many in our society
like I said before, if you are second guessing or using words like MOST LIKELY, it will be a waste of time for further discussion and we will all be ending up doing mental masturbation.
There is no one policy in this world that will benefit the people equally, hence lets me more realistic when we talk about policy -
Me got things to do mah... Busy eagle... Gymmed till afternoon, then studied a little of japanese, then took a late nap, which is why I'm still awake now, and then chat with gf, and then dinner, and then a while of forumming, and then msn chat with gf, and then start to do research for fyp just now... Printed 2 articles out, and then settle this sep thing...Originally posted by LazerLordz:Hey, you're an Eagle, not a Night Owl..
Now still looking at a previous person's project to prepare for another project, and planning for an early morning jog tmr... Hmmm -
Note: I did not say average starting pay for poly grad is 1.2k. But you will have to admit that the colleagues for the 2 jobs that my fren has done will be all earning around that area... This already constitutes quite a number of people.Originally posted by Gazelle:How can you say its the job market, when there are no statistic to support your views that today's average starting pay for poly grad is 1.2K?
like I said before, if you are second guessing or using words like MOST LIKELY, it will be a waste of time for further discussion and we will all be ending up doing mental masturbation.
There is no one policy in this world that will benefit the people equally, hence lets me more realistic when we talk about policy
In statistics, averages do not take into account how severe any fluctuations there are. Fact is, I'm not second guessing the salary. I'm also inferring from the information I have posted out. Unless you are going to tell me you earn $5k in your job while your colleagues with the same education level, experience level and same job scope earn $6k or more, I will then agree that this is just an exception case.
"There is no one policy in this world that will benefit the people equally" is a good statement. No government policy can ever satisfy everyone equally. -
The night would be a nice time to unwind yea..Originally posted by eagle:Me got things to do mah... Busy eagle... Gymmed till afternoon, then studied a little of japanese, then took a late nap, which is why I'm still awake now, and then chat with gf, and then dinner, and then a while of forumming, and then msn chat with gf, and then start to do research for fyp just now... Printed 2 articles out, and then settle this sep thing...
Now still looking at a previous person's project to prepare for another project, and planning for an early morning jog tmr... Hmmm
Speaking of SEP..you should have applied for this HPAIR conference in Beijing and HK this month.
Not a bad experience..though it's more development and business oriented as compared to last year.
I was part of the Security workshop, talked to a few post-grad students who happened to rotate out of Iraq with their Stryker brigades after their officer contract ended.. we shared a few tales and some of us learnt a fair bit about Operations Other Than War through the eyes of people who were not trained for that but have relatively succeeded in doing so.
You really get to meet a mini-UN while at any HPAIR workshop.