Government may make buying annuity compulsory
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You are making a very unrealistic and naive assumption that if there is no CPF and the money was given to you in cash, you won't be saving it.Originally posted by Gazelle:You are making a very unrealistic and naive assumption that if there is no CPF and the money was given to you in cash, you will be saving it.
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Have you forgotten the bankruptcy rate and credit card roll over debt which Singaporean choke up right after the recession? Plus the numberous reports which claim that Singaporeans are mostly asset rich and cash poor?Originally posted by maurizio13:You are making a very unrealistic and naive assumption that if there is no CPF and the money was given to you in cash, you won't be saving it. -
That's why I say give the people the choice to opt in or out, stupid ones like you would need to opt in.Originally posted by Gazelle:Have you forgotten the bankruptcy rate and credit card roll over debt which Singaporean choke up right after the recession? Plus the numberous reports which claim that Singaporeans are mostly asset rich and cash poor? Maybe they can give IQ test for those who want to opt out of CPF, if they have high IQ, they have the opportunity to opt out of CPF scheme.
Like you said, the bankruptcy rate and credit card was the result of the recession, not a result of poor financial management in normal economic circumstances.
You can't protect people forever, they need to learn themselves, the earlier they learn about financial consequences, the more prudent and wise they will be later in life.
If they have opt in and opt out for CPF scheme (Singaporeans will have more cash from their CPF accounts), then Singaporeans will be equally distributed between cash and assets.
KNN, rebutting you is a no brainer, think I only used 1% of my potential brain power. -
haha...I am not sure if this kid knows about what is call financial management, if he does, he should know that credit card is the most expensive source of fund after ah long.Originally posted by maurizio13:Like you said, the bankruptcy rate and credit card was the result of the recession, not a result of poor financial management in normal economic circumstances.
KNN? wah...how come so agreesive? MODERATOR watch this space!! -
Those are the nincompoop like you, who finance purchases with credit card. These are the type that should remain in the CPF scheme. Why should the average intelligent Singaporean be dragged down by a Gazelle?Originally posted by Gazelle:haha...I am not sure if this kid knows about what is call financial management, if he does, he should know that credit card is the most expensive source of fund after ah long.
KNN? wah...how come so agreesive? MODERATOR watch this space!!
KNN = King of Nifty Noses!!!
You have a strong sense of smell.
Muahahahaha.....
Lame duck! -
well...I am not exactly supporting the idea...but after U die...why U care about losing money?Originally posted by eagle:If you live too long, you earn more. If you die too early, you lose money.
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Hmm?Originally posted by Xcert:well...I am not exactly supporting the idea...but after U die...why U care about losing money?
If you know that you'll be dying at around the age of 70.
Would you rather withdraw all your CPF savings by 62, plan everything out so that you can live comfortably..
OR
Be forced to join this ... annuity thing and despite knowing you'll die at 70 from medical illnesses or whatsoever, get only $700 a month, and unable to get more out of it?
You KNOW you have money in the CPF or annuity, but NO you cannot get it.
Tui or not? -
If you have to resort to the last penny in your cpf and there is no back up plans such as children's support or saving etc. life will sucks regardless if there a annuity or not.Originally posted by _Aaron_:Hmm?
If you know that you'll be dying at around the age of 70.
Would you rather withdraw all your CPF savings by 62, plan everything out so that you can live comfortably..
OR
Be forced to join this ... annuity thing and despite knowing you'll die at 70 from medical illnesses or whatsoever, get only $700 a month, and unable to get more out of it?
You KNOW you have money in the CPF or annuity, but NO you cannot get it.
Tui or not? -
Ok I put it in simpler terms.
If you die early, very good! Since they (insurance co with maybe some agreement with XXX) get to keep the money.
If you don't die early, the government no need to bother about you, let the insurance do the dirty work.
In even simpler terms it means to the government, if you die early we get your money, if you die later we still got nothing to lose. -
CPF is a touchy subject. Don't forget we're discussing annuity, where most elderly live in an era where dependence on the govt was like a mother b.reastfeeding her infant. Many others are understandably ignorant, believing the misguided claims that CPF will cover them in their twilight years.Originally posted by maurizio13:Having CPF is not necessary a good thing, especially if it's use has been restricted. If you can't find a job, you don't have money, but you can't use your CPF money. What's the point of having future money, when you are having present survival issues, which threatens you from collecting your future CPF money.
It's better to let the individual decide on what their investments should be themselves. Better to let the individual choose if they want to be in the CPF scheme (for individuals like Gazelle and lionnoisy) or they want to invest the money themselves.
Our generation could probably be relied to get better value than the paltry 2.5% with our monies, but the same cannot be said of our super seniors, who may have become totally dependent on the govt for guidance.
On situations where the majority cannot be relied upon to make decisions, the govt may step in. This approach is acceptable, since it will cost even more taxpayer's monies to manage this catagory of people later on, should they find themselves in financial turmoil without any means of recovery.
In other situations, such as means testing to alleviate the problem of over-crowded hospitals, it's a fair to say that our mentality and that of the majority may 'abuse' their 'rights' and deprive more deserving patients of a bed. That the govt decided to step in is probably welcomed.
This case is decidedly different. We are talking about the insurance industry, which has played an important role in shaping family development and investments for the last 20 years. We cannot feign ignorance now, nor can the majority claim they have little or no knowledge with the intricacies and legalities of insurance-care products. The idea that the govt may choose to intervene is simply premature at this stage. -
heheeeheee...Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:Ok I put it in simpler terms.
If you die early, very good! Since they (insurance co with maybe some agreement with XXX) get to keep the money.
If you don't die early, the government no need to bother about you, let the insurance do the dirty work.
In even simpler terms it means to the government, if you die early we get your money, if you die later we still got nothing to lose.
They are treating us just like the way they do business.. they must profit and benefit all the way...
All I see of their policies, are that they are all tailored to proctect themselves.. not the people.... -
Exactly, they resort to try to make this compulsory so the old people will not be a burden to them. And so they can be sure and secure they will be able to continue to be overpaid the filthy super high salaries for as long as they are the gahmen. They shirk their responsibility to take care of the people. Either die early and later, they are on the winning side. They have never stop ways and means to earn money out of the people. They treat our CPF account as "yao qian shu" where they make use of to get profits.Originally posted by HyperFocal:heheeeheee...
They are treating us just like the way they do business.. they must profit and benefit all the way...
All I see of their policies, are that they are all tailored to proctect themselves.. not the people....
They are just bunch of vampires sucking blood and money, they have insatiable appetite to earn money out of us. -
Well... look at it on the bright side: if they keep this up (which I'm more than sure they will), they will eventually get voted out - regardless how many New Citizens they import...Originally posted by qlqq9:Exactly, they resort to try to make this compulsory so the old people will not be a burden to them. And so they can be sure and secure they will be able to continue to be overpaid the filthy super high salaries for as long as they are the gahmen. They shirk their responsibility to take care of the people. Either die early and later, they are on the winning side. They have never stop ways and means to earn money out of the people. They treat our CPF account as "yao qian shu" where they make use of to get profits.
They are just bunch of vampires sucking blood and money, they have insatiable appetite to earn money out of us. -
I very much hope so they will be voted out, but I am not positive about it. The election dept under PM's office they can resort to all things to continue their "throne" forever and ever. YOU know they can resort to playing dirty.Originally posted by HyperFocal:Well... look at it on the bright side: if they keep this up (which I'm more than sure they will), they will eventually get voted out - regardless how many New Citizens they import... -
What do you mean by they can resort to playing dirty?Originally posted by qlqq9:I very much hope so they will be voted out, but I am not positive about it. The election dept under PM's office they can resort to all things to continue their "throne" forever and ever. YOU know they can resort to playing dirty.
They ARE ALREADY and HAVE BEEN all these while - just that they legalized every dirty trick... -
Originally posted by HyperFocal:
Ya ha, you said it! Oh ya, that dirty old man played dirty, sensitive real life situation that happened. Somebody was asked to step down because of . . . .. . happened in one of my ex workplace. Dirty, indeed very dirty! They play dirty from top to bottom. That is why I never wanna work in the gahmen sector.
What do you mean by they can [b]resort to playing dirty?
They ARE ALREADY and HAVE BEEN all these while - just that they legalized every dirty trick...
[/b]
Sorry TS, I just side track a little. -
When it comes to money and CPF, compulsory savings and deferred withdrawals, everybody gets hot under the collar! All kinds of noices can be heard.
The CPF scheme is unique and SG is the country that started it. Now, a few countries have followed. Many would like to introduce but unable due to obstacles and resistance from both employees and employers. As an employer, I wouldn't want to pay CPF. It is added business cost!
There is no denial that CPF has served SGreans well. If CPF is abolished, I can assure you there were be more hardships and chaos in the market. Nobody likes to have his money tied up. The worse and wrong impression generated here is that the gahmen is hard up of your money!
Looking at the CPF balances of those who are about to retire, you will see that it is insufficient to last another 20 - 30 years without continued steady income. In other words, if they don't continue to work after 55 yrs and simply withdraw their monies to live by, the balance will dry up in no time. Especially with the IRs around.
Imagine this scenario: old people forced to work on meagre incomes, scavaging food at hawker centres, begging on the streets and returning to their cardboard shelters. -
Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:The worse and wrong impression generated here is that the gahmen is hard up of your money!
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that one, kept by Department of StatisticsOriginally posted by SevenEleven:anybody has the statistics of the number of people in Singapore dying at the various ages? ICA website don't have them
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annuity is a financial product which is highly dependent on interest rates level, ie it is very expensive if the interest rate is very low and vice versa.
as an illustration
$500 per month is big sum in a near zero interest rate environment and vice versa. -
firstly, i find it interesting that when i read about cpf, the anti-pap forumers criticized cpf, mainly government delays payment till we are too old to use it. now, we can start withdrawing money in the form of annuities at a fixed age of 55 and this is an improvement over the previous situation, you guys also complain. We asked for transparency about our CPF monies, now we get it and we still complain. I wonder what is going on.
in my humble opinion, annuities is one of the best forms of financial planning for retirement. When we are talking about using cpf money for retirement and when we start talking of using cpf money to invest in annuities, it wont be bad.
OK. there are outstanding issues to be ironed out or made clear.
1) when and how much do we pay for the annuities ? Of course, the younger we start, the better it is. The more we contribute, the higher the annuities when we retire at 55 (that also means that many of us dont need to work if our annuities is substantial enough at 55 years old).
2) If the annuities are priced at commercial market rate PLUS the government GUARANTEES payments, it is a steal for all of us because we are buying a commercial product with a sovereign backing.
3) what happens if interest rates fall to zero percent ?
In my opinion, I think our Prime Minister LEE Hsien Loong and his ministers got it right. I like the annuities. -
CPF deduction will be made 25%, 20% cpf, the remainder annuity.
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Just what is your fuss? Oh, so I see you mean people are not to voice out about the way the gahmen handle our CPF. Don't compare CPF with annuity they are different. You have just compared apples to durians. This is typical of alternate voices to compare apples to durians. OMG!Originally posted by Daddy!!:firstly, i find it interesting that when i read about cpf, the anti-pap forumers criticized cpf, mainly government delays payment till we are too old to use it. now, we can start withdrawing money in the form of annuities at a fixed age of 55 and this is an improvement over the previous situation, you guys also complain. We asked for transparency about our CPF monies, now we get it and we still complain. I wonder what is going on.
in my humble opinion, annuities is one of the best forms of financial planning for retirement. When we are talking about using cpf money for retirement and when we start talking of using cpf money to invest in annuities, it wont be bad.
OK. there are outstanding issues to be ironed out or made clear.
1) when and how much do we pay for the annuities ? Of course, the younger we start, the better it is. The more we contribute, the higher the annuities when we retire at 55 (that also means that many of us dont need to work if our annuities is substantial enough at 55 years old).
2) If the annuities are priced at commercial market rate PLUS the government GUARANTEES payments, it is a steal for all of us because we are buying a commercial product with a sovereign backing.
3) what happens if interest rates fall to zero percent ? -
can you give an example to clarify this ? thanksOriginally posted by ditzy:CPF deduction will be made 25%, 20% cpf, the remainder annuity. -
Originally posted by Daddy!!:firstly, i find it interesting that when i read about cpf, the anti-pap forumers criticized cpf, mainly government delays payment till we are too old to use it. now, we can start withdrawing money in the form of annuities at a fixed age of 55 and this is an improvement over the previous situation, you guys also complain. We asked for transparency about our CPF monies, now we get it and we still complain. I wonder what is going on.
in my humble opinion, annuities is one of the best forms of financial planning for retirement. When we are talking about using cpf money for retirement and when we start talking of using cpf money to invest in annuities, it wont be bad.
OK. there are outstanding issues to be ironed out or made clear.
1) when and how much do we pay for the annuities ? Of course, the younger we start, the better it is. The more we contribute, the higher the annuities when we retire at 55 (that also means that many of us dont need to work if our annuities is substantial enough at 55 years old).
2) If the annuities are priced at commercial market rate PLUS the government GUARANTEES payments, it is a steal for all of us because we are buying a commercial product with a sovereign backing.
3) what happens if interest rates fall to zero percent ?Income is seen as better in terms of total payments from the age of 62.
Above is an advertisment from NTUC income - even commerical payout is 62 and you want to collect at 55
Annuities
"An annuity is insurance in case you live too long"
Rank Until Age 82 Until Age 92
1 CPF Board $170,640 $170,640
2 NTUC Income $153,600 $256,500
3 HSBC $119,350 $185,580
4 AIA $113,280 $169,920
4 GE Life $111,644 $167,470
5 Prudential $105,000 $157,500
5 Aviva $104,760 $157,140
5 Asia Life $104,000 $156,140
Source: www.askdrmoney.com
Important Information
The table shows total payments from age 62 until age 82 and age 92. The payments are made from an assumed $90,000 in the retirement account at age 55 and payments begin at age 62.
The CPF Board's guaranteed payout is 4.0 per cent per year for 20 years (age 62 to 82). This comes to $711 per month and totals $170,640 after 20 years.
The 7 insurers' guaranteed payout averages 2.5 per cent per year for life. (HSBC and NTUC Income also pay non-guaranteed annual bonuses of 1 per cent and 2 per cent.)
Based on mortality tables, 30% of men and 40% of women will live past age 82. 1% of men and 3% of women will live past age 92.
Should the annuity holder die before age 82, CPF rules require that the balance be returned to his/her beneficiaries (after minor deductions for administrative costs. grow up