Should human rights be applied to terrorists?
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This question came to mind when US imprisoned the Al-Qaeda fighters in Guantemela Bay Prison. It was alleged that they were treated shabbily. Personally, I find that strange. Why should these people (ahem... for lack of a better word. you'll see why i say so) be accorded any human right when they are indifferent to commiting mass murder? I say that they should be treated as the Isrealis treat them, as beings that are lower than animals. Hell, if only to prevent more murders of innocent people, what's wrong with torturing them to expose more of their kind? I feel that the Americans are overly binded by their values, and this will come around and hurt them in the end...
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What rights? They would have forfeited all of their rights when they killed all those innocent men and women. I cannot understand why some people cry out to the world, asking for people to treat those terrorists properly because it is their "right". Have all of them been blinded? Reminds me of greenpeace activists and tree huggers who do nothing but stand in the way of bulldozers and scream at nuclear submarines.Originally posted by YourFather:This question came to mind when US imprisoned the Al-Qaeda fighters in Guantemela Bay Prison. It was alleged that they were treated shabbily. Personally, I find that strange. Why should these people (ahem... for lack of a better word. you'll see why i say so) be accorded any human right when they are indifferent to commiting mass murder? I say that they should be treated as the Isrealis treat them, as beings that are lower than animals. Hell, if only to prevent more murders of innocent people, what's wrong with torturing them to expose more of their kind? I feel that the Americans are overly binded by their values, and this will come around and hurt them in the end... -
I shall give no comment other than on 'Human Rights'.......settled?Originally posted by YourFather:This question came to mind when US imprisoned the Al-Qaeda fighters in Guantemela Bay Prison. It was alleged that they were treated shabbily. Personally, I find that strange. Why should these people (ahem... for lack of a better word. you'll see why i say so) be accorded any human right when they are indifferent to commiting mass murder? I say that they should be treated as the Isrealis treat them, as beings that are lower than animals. Hell, if only to prevent more murders of innocent people, what's wrong with torturing them to expose more of their kind? I feel that the Americans are overly binded by their values, and this will come around and hurt them in the end...
R we toking abt 'Human Rights' here 1st of all?........
Why discuss in the 1st place if we dun give a damn abt 'HRs'?
Wat is 'HRs' & Who r the ones to be Entitied?
Everyone shld be treated equally n tt shld be agreed on but
whoever breaks the rule has to SUFFER for it tt's all......
SUFFER as in the bad deeds they've committed BUT
definitely not EYE FOR AN EYE punishment.
Wat's the diff fr their Barbaric acts if we do the same onto them?!?!
Education to the rest who shld commit such sinful acts in future?!?!
or more likely to incur to wrath many more others?!?!?!
Definitely not a wise move....lots of IQ sense wif no EQ control.
Enuff said on my part to express for 'Human Rights'
so i feel tt terrorists still NEED to be treated the same for imprisonment...
let them be punished after Sentence......
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In peace time, and in a civilized society, the only rights that Terrorists have, are those rights normally accorded to Criminals.
In times of war, Terrorists shall be subjected to martial laws, and face court martial that leads to one final judgement -
that is : SUMMARY EXECUTION. -
What happens to "Innocent before proven guilty" ?
Until a court of law have judge those "terrorists" guilty, they SHOULD be given the same rights as every human being.
Imagine, if you're just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people and you are "mistaken" to be one of them. Do YOU want to be treated as a criminal before judgement or investigation was done?
Food for thought. -
unfortunately... under extreme situations... extreme measures are usually taken to ensure... the lives of the majority...Originally posted by ray_jazz:What happens to "Innocent before proven guilty" ?
Until a court of law have judge those "terrorists" guilty, they SHOULD be given the same rights as every human being.
Imagine, if you're just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people and you are "mistaken" to be one of them. Do YOU want to be treated as a criminal before judgement or investigation was done?
Food for thought.
I believe that under human rights... all man are equal... BUT HR is just HR... its an idea , a vision... its a declaration, its a moral position... it will be nice if the vision is practiced universally...
UNFORTUNATELY....
Do you think the terrorist believes in the HR of their victims....??? -
every human has the right to live in this world. If they cant respect this, and want to commit mass murders, why should we bother about their rights??
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I won't be caught in the wrong place at the wrong time with a bomb under my jacket and affliations to terrorist organizations.
Innoncent until proven guilty goes out the window for anyone affliated to terrorist organizations. A pig is a pig. You don't need to prove a pig to be a pig and not a dog.
These things, are not afraid of death. Yet if you kill them, there will be more hijackings that will try to bargain for their release. Summary executions are too easy. So what exactly do you do with these bastards?
I say, since they are not afraid of death, then we should make arrangements for them to meet him. -
You people are crazy.
Some of the people at Guantanamo Bay are not even terrorists. There were reportedly some aid workers and Red Cross personnel that were accidentally captured and subsequently released after months of imprisonment. There may be more such people. There may be other innocents there -- civilians that just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and were snatched up.
And you're asking for all the people there to be shot? Tortured to death?
That is the reason for "innocent until proven guilty". You don't fucking KNOW who's guilty until you prove it. It's not softheartedness. It's just fucking logic!
Many of the people there did not understand what Al Qaeda was doing. Many of them knew nothing about 911. Many of them were simply peripherally involved with the organization -- people who provided them with food or clothing. Guilt is not a black and white thing. Not everyone in that concentration camp is a mass murderer, either in deed or in thought.
And even when they are proven guilty, they must be treated within the framework of the law. If you do not, then you just become another set of terrorists yourself. Laws are what distinguish civilized people from terrorists and barbarians. The law is what distinguishes justice from revenge and from murder.
I am shocked at your ideas. I never thought I would hear such lunacy from my fellow Singaporeans. -
i am not a lunatic nor a crazy fool... i am not the one who drove a plane right into a building...Originally posted by dkhoo:You people are crazy.
Some of the people at Guantanamo Bay are not even terrorists. There were reportedly some aid workers and Red Cross personnel that were accidentally captured and subsequently released after months of imprisonment. There may be more such people. There may be other innocents there -- civilians that just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and were snatched up.
And you're asking for all the people there to be shot? Tortured to death?
That is the reason for "innocent until proven guilty". You don't fucking KNOW who's guilty until you prove it. It's not softheartedness. It's just fucking logic!
Many of the people there did not understand what Al Qaeda was doing. Many of them knew nothing about 911. Many of them were simply peripherally involved with the organization -- people who provided them with food or clothing. Guilt is not a black and white thing. Not everyone in that concentration camp is a mass murderer, either in deed or in thought.
And even when they are proven guilty, they must be treated within the framework of the law. If you do not, then you just become another set of terrorists yourself. Laws are what distinguish civilized people from terrorists and barbarians. The law is what distinguishes justice from revenge and from murder.
I am shocked at your ideas. I never thought I would hear such lunacy from my fellow Singaporeans.
As i have said.. extreme situations sometimes calls for extreme measures to protect the lives of the majority....
Nothing is perfect... for every path and actions we choose... there will be advantages and disadvantages.... The Law is not perfect... likewise.. the US camp in cuba for the terrorist is not perfect as well...
BUT it must be understood that the soldier at the US detention camp is doing an action out of his desire to protect, to save and to safeguard the lives of his countrymen... just as a judge strives to do the same in the court of law...
While the methods they employed may be different... the aim is the same...
while some may argue the benefit of one method over the other... I believe that such argument are merely technical... the important thing is to achieve the objectives....
ITs sad that innocent people have been arrested as well... BUT it must be understood... its out of the concern for the general wellbeing of the rest of the people....
The soldiers at the camp... nor the president of the USA should be blame for their wrongful arrest... Afterall... how can anyone tell a terrorist from a non-terrorist?? you mean terrorist got a extra hand or 2 head that makes them stand out infront of the innocence??
clearly... the fault lies in the terrorist... its their actions... that prompt the US to act in a way... that the US believe ... its in the best interest for his people....its not perfect.. BUT its something...
AND lastly... wat the US does or dont do... is non-of your concern... YOU are no more then a human being... i am pretty sure... you should reserve your judgement on others ... to yourself...
You are not in the shoe of the US president... you should refrain from judging....others... -
It's easy to advocate extreme measures -- until you're one of those up against the wall. You'd change your tune in a hurry if you were one of the innocent in that camp. Thank your lucky stars our "undemocratic" ISD is at least better than the Americans.
Do you really think Guantanamo Bay, or any other form of injustice committed in the name of justice, fights terrorism in any way? Look at what that camp is doing to the image of the US abroad. Even the Europeans are disgusted (with Tony Blair the only exception). I cannot imagine how many people who would otherwise have remained outraged but inert were pushed over the edge by that arrogant breach of international law. So much for fighting terrorism.
Terrorists are like cockroaches: you cannot kill them all. You get rid of them by depriving them of food, and keeping your house clean. Guantanamo Bay is a big steaming pile of shit, and it's feeding these pests. -
Unfortunately, there is no one legal definition of what 'human rights' is. Even if we tried to limit this discussion to 'human rights' that could apply to terrorists, that begs the further question of what is a terrorist? without a proper legal definition that is acceptable to most civilised nations (and even then doubtful, cos most 'terrorists' come frmo the shit pits of the world) there's the standard of enforcement. WHo will enforce these standards, even if they existed?
As it is, international law is anchored to the unshakeable pillar of national sovereignity - and each country is totally free to define what or who a terrorist is. Even amongst the G8 nations, their standards for a terrorist differ widely. Even up till now, the British are struggling to define a terrorist in the Anti-terror laws that have still yet to be passed.
Homeland security in the US is also facing problems - how does one draft an anti-terrorist law that protects its citizens without becoming oppressive?
As it is, the one way that the international authorities can deal with the terrorist threat is merely to expand their police / army's powers of search and detention - and then to try the accused (read: innocent until proven guilty) in open court using the criminal system. Since most of us, and myself included think of terrorists as nothing more than cowardly shits using religion as a crutch to commit their henious, even these criminal courts lack the legal structure to deal adequately with terrorists. I mean, criminal courts dish out punishments meant to be approximate and proportional responses to crimes like rape and murder - not for mass murder and plotting to end regimes.
For there special Fkers in out midst, what we need is a special judicial system to run these terrorists through, something like the Nuremburg courts to try those Nazis after WW2, but even then, something like that was criticisde as a Victor's Court awarding Victor's justice.
Until we can separate a terrorist from a freedom fighter, and define who or what makes a terroist internationally, we shall be bound by the arbitrary nature of domestic laws and their own particular inconsistencies. And the fate of the terrorist will depend on the jurisdiction of his capture. Good for the Fker if he gets caught in the US - he gets the media, some slimeball lawyer who will bray for his HR being infringed etc but what about those terrorists whom Iran arrests as being subersive Iraqi agents? they just get a bullet to the head. In S'pore and M'sia, they get the ISA and disappear to some dark cell (but at least got aircon there hahaha).
so let's separate the anger and rhetoric from out rantings and think about how we can deal with the ultimate problem: how does one create a system to deal with the terrorist threat, combat it pre-emptively and post incident without reducing a democratic country with deomcratic institutions to a freaking dictatorship?
Unofrtunately, there is no easy answer that will placate everyone.
As for me, if i ever, in wartime came across a terrorist (in my opinion), I'd spare him the agony of the legal knot and just just put a bullet to his spine. That way, he'd be crawling the rest of his life and shit in his pants. -
Terrorists are individuals or groups of individuals that terrorize the civilian population that form a community living in peace by their terrorising activities that may or can include the following activities:
- rape
- killing by any means - bomb, bullet, knife
- physical or psychological force
all of which result in the physical or psychological subjugation of the civilian individual or population, for the purpose of political or economic agenda of the terrorist individual or groups of individuals.
All acts of terrorizing an individual or a community of individuals by any means should be judge by all civilized community to be contemptible acts that cannot be condoned or allowed to be softly coddled by any liberal human rights group.
The act of using terror to subjugate another person's existence (and that of civil life) is an act of contemptible arrogance on the part of the Terrorist, and it automatically forfeit his own rights to better treatment from civil society. -
I totally agree with you. I am shocked by them too, hopefully they are just the views of minorities, i cant imagine 1/2 the singaporeans thinking that way.Originally posted by dkhoo:You people are crazy.
Some of the people at Guantanamo Bay are not even terrorists. There were reportedly some aid workers and Red Cross personnel that were accidentally captured and subsequently released after months of imprisonment. There may be more such people. There may be other innocents there -- civilians that just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and were snatched up.
And you're asking for all the people there to be shot? Tortured to death?
That is the reason for "innocent until proven guilty". You don't fucking KNOW who's guilty until you prove it. It's not softheartedness. It's just fucking logic!
Many of the people there did not understand what Al Qaeda was doing. Many of them knew nothing about 911. Many of them were simply peripherally involved with the organization -- people who provided them with food or clothing. Guilt is not a black and white thing. Not everyone in that concentration camp is a mass murderer, either in deed or in thought.
And even when they are proven guilty, they must be treated within the framework of the law. If you do not, then you just become another set of terrorists yourself. Laws are what distinguish civilized people from terrorists and barbarians. The law is what distinguishes justice from revenge and from murder.
I am shocked at your ideas. I never thought I would hear such lunacy from my fellow Singaporeans. -
As for me, if i ever, in wartime came across a terrorist (in my opinion), I'd spare him the agony of the legal knot and just just put a bullet to his spine. That way, he'd be crawling the rest of his life and shit in his pants.
Same here... But I might be merciful and just put one into his hipbone instead of spine, "shot while resisting arrest". -
I am extremely cynical of this view. Call me a kid, call me a coward, but people who killed another human being do not deserve anything but a bullet through their heads. I really admire the Isreali way of doing things. Its harsh, but it gets the message across - to those who cares anyway. As for the US camp issue, it is simply because they are unable to seperate the wolves from the sheeps. Anyone who has basic knowledge of anti-terrorist teams will know that they manhandle the hostages and don't exactly treat them well after a takedown. Its the same logic. Terrorists don't wear a headband with the words "Terrorist" on them. I can't imagine 1/2 our population being so soft on these people, sooner or later we'll have riots on the streets with people shouting "No war" even when we are attacked.Originally posted by ray_jazz:I totally agree with you. I am shocked by them too, hopefully they are just the views of minorities, i cant imagine 1/2 the singaporeans thinking that way. -
Yes, i agree PEOPLE who HAD killed another human being INTENTIONLY does not deserve human rights however who gives YOU or anyone else the RIGHTS to do the same thing to them?Originally posted by EXCO:I am extremely cynical of this view. Call me a kid, call me a coward, but people who killed another human being do not deserve anything but a bullet through their heads. I really admire the Isreali way of doing things. Its harsh, but it gets the message across - to those who cares anyway. As for the US camp issue, it is simply because they are unable to seperate the wolves from the sheeps. Anyone who has basic knowledge of anti-terrorist teams will know that they manhandle the hostages and don't exactly treat them well after a takedown. Its the same logic. Terrorists don't wear a headband with the words "Terrorist" on them. I can't imagine 1/2 our population being so soft on these people, sooner or later we'll have riots on the streets with people shouting "No war" even when we are attacked.
What does that makes you then?
What use does the law have on society when its police (military) takes the law into their own hands?
Laws were set up for a reason. Otherwise we wont need them at all. -
I can agree on this. That's a GOOD reasonOriginally posted by EXCO:As for the US camp issue, it is simply because they are unable to seperate the wolves from the sheeps.
But can u juz imagine where the world is heading?
A Cycle tt repeats itself after the 'Evil -Terrorism' ......
"U (terrorists) did this to the innocence.....& i shall do tt onto u coz u deserve it......."
The Cycle will continue Forvever unless we view the Situation with much Further Insight, how abt it?
Hatred is an EVIL thought tt lingers within oneself........in terrorists or pple who want them to Suffer for their Bad Deeds.....
How WRONG can they be when the way u gonna make them suffer will precisely JUSTIFy their acts?!?!
Unless this Cycle of 'Evil - Terrorism' to lead the Heart of Every Living Being is wat everyone hope to see, stop the Cycle n start to Forgive (i know it's hard but wat can change even if u Hate?!)
LOVE is a much more Powerful Weapon than the LOGICAL mind can do
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Simple.
Human rights are for human only. Get it? -
GOOD Answer.Originally posted by SonOfGod:Simple.
Human rights are for human only. Get it?
Then may the Humans be punished by GOD. -
Believe it or not, those terrorists are humans too.Originally posted by SonOfGod:Simple.
Human rights are for human only. Get it?
Yes, humans are capable of great evil as well as great good.
Yes, even YOU might have become a terrorist if your life had taken a different path.
Those inmates in Guantanamo Bay are people, just like you and me. Calling them "pigs", "dogs" and denying their humanity is just a way of saying "no, it couldn't happen to me". Open your eyes. Yes, it could have. They are the same as you.
This is the great burden and responsibility of being a human -- the fact that you are capable of so much. Be vigilant. If you start baying for blood, and want to chop of their heads, you are taking the first steps toward turning into a terrorist like them. -
Originally posted by dkhoo:It's easy to advocate extreme measures -- until you're one of those up against the wall. You'd change your tune in a hurry if you were one of the innocent in that camp. Thank your lucky stars our "undemocratic" ISD is at least better than the Americans.
The local ISD is better than the americans???? THATS because non of our major skyscrappers have been scrapped by them terrorist yet!! 
as to being one of those up against the wall... I would try my best to avoid being so... BUT... its still better then being end up as one of those poor souls at the top of the NY WTC.... the fear, the sorrow, the lost, the sense of hopelessness, their cry for help, their yearn for their love ones... the pain, the suffering, the fear, the horror and the despair.... that grips them like an iron claw..... HOW do you expect any human being to seek HR for terrorist who does such unspeakable horror against a common human.??? wat crimes have those poor souls at the WTC committed?? and wat rights does those terrorist have... in administering such horrid punishment??? LOOKING BACK... whenever the scene of those poor souls clinging onto the wall for their precious life at the top of the NY WTC...plays in my mind... I really believe... that anyone who tries to ride the moral high ass horse to claim HR for those terrorist is nothing more then an IDIOTIC IDEALISTIC STUPID UNREALISTIC MORONIC BUFFOON.....
Do you really think Guantanamo Bay, or any other form of injustice committed in the name of justice, fights terrorism in any way? Look at what that camp is doing to the image of the US abroad. Even the Europeans are disgusted (with Tony Blair the only exception). I cannot imagine how many people who would otherwise have remained outraged but inert were pushed over the edge by that arrogant breach of international law. So much for fighting terrorism. MR high moral.... you got bright idea of how to fight terrorism... just speak lah... BUT.... do you really really think that you are really that smart??? remember hor.... terrorist may be mad... but they ... NOT AS DUMB as you....
Terrorists are like cockroaches: you cannot kill them all. You get rid of them by depriving them of food, and keeping your house clean. Guantanamo Bay is a big steaming pile of shit, and it's feeding these pests. DEPRIVING THEM OF FOOD
STUPID IDIOT.... first you must know WHO and WHERE are those terrorist!!!!.... keep your house clean????
HOW?? ask the terrorist... kindly leave the country???
dumb idiot..... -
were not laws set up by human as well???Originally posted by ray_jazz:Yes, i agree PEOPLE who HAD killed another human being INTENTIONLY does not deserve human rights however who gives YOU or anyone else the RIGHTS to do the same thing to them?
What does that makes you then?
What use does the law have on society when its police (military) takes the law into their own hands?
Laws were set up for a reason. Otherwise we wont need them at all.
were not judgement in the court of law .. by on a human opinion as well?
while EXCO may not be give the right to take the law into his own hand... but if he was given that right... are you gonna challenge his decision then?? or will you agreed to his position??
and as far as i sees it... the US troops are still operating within the realm of the law... they act under the executive order of the US president who was empowered by the people of america...
THE US troops also must follow the law and act in obedience to the US millitary law.... they are not rebels nor monsters that have acted against a lawful order... -
I DONT MIND......... someone got to make a stand... if not now.. then when?? after the terrorist have killed your love ones or until the terrorist knocks on your door??Originally posted by dkhoo:Believe it or not, those terrorists are humans too. nobody denies that they are human... biologically... BUT mentally.... are they normal???
Yes, humans are capable of great evil as well as great good. tell me somthing else i do not know.... BUT........ are terrorist the great evil OR your great goody boys???
Yes, even YOU might have become a terrorist if your life had taken a different path. do you imply that if your life sucks... you then got the right to extinguish the lifes of others at your pleasure???
Those inmates in Guantanamo Bay are people, just like you and me. Calling them "pigs", "dogs" and denying their humanity is just a way of saying "no, it couldn't happen to me". Open your eyes. Yes, it could have. They are the same as you. ..... its a war dammit... its either them or us... make your choice... you can join them at guantanamo bay or you can stick around typing garbage...with the very freedom that was provided by soldiers who risk their lives to ensure your safety and your well-being....
This is the great burden and responsibility of being a human -- the fact that you are capable of so much. Be vigilant. If you start baying for blood, and want to chop of their heads, you are taking the first steps toward turning into a terrorist like them.
ITs bloody fucking war that they declared against the whole world...
AS long as they visit destruction and death upon us... we will and must do the same against them....
BUT if they are willing to lay down their arms and seek a peaceful solution... i believe we will negotiate with them in good faith...
BUT... if they should force the issue by force of arms... then... too bad lor.... we will gladly send them to their allahs and watever virgins up there... -
Wah, didn't expect so many responses..... I guess I should restate my stand, because some seem to misunderstand. I mean, say if you had in your hands a CONFIRMED terrorist, should torture be a viable method to extract info from him? I do NOT advocate using torture as a method to force a confession. I think that's pretty stupid, as an innocent person will most probably say anything to relieve himself of the torture. To those who disagree with me, I'd like to ask if they'll still cling on to their high moral values if it was their parents, their wife, girlfriend or children who was up there on the WTC? And if torture can prevent another 911 case, would you still disagree with torture?