Is the SAF's progress being held back by WOSEs?
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This is my personal point of view.
I think they are holding us back withtheir mentality........
Sometimes so childish, can't tolerate them.......worst still many
are stubborn creatures, act smart like to "sa ka" officers, unreasonable and "uneducated".
when i was in tekong, I told my platoon mates, if there's a war,
i shoot my CSM, in stagmont, i'll shoot my WSM, and in gedong,
i'll BLAST my RSM's head off.
OLD FOLLIES aren't they........so many fatigue.........
when you are going to ord, still treat you very bad, unless you heng,
kena good one then he'll relax on you.....but very hypocrite.......
ppl......pls do comment generously.........
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My dear friend, do fatigue and work...you complain like shit? Your life nowdays is much much better compared to what most of us had gone throuh in our days.Originally posted by Prince38:This is my personal point of view.
I think they are holding us back withtheir mentality........
Sometimes so childish, can't tolerate them.......worst still many
are stubborn creatures, act smart like to "sa ka" officers, unreasonable and "uneducated".
when i was in tekong, I told my platoon mates, if there's a war,
i shoot my CSM, in stagmont, i'll shoot my WSM, and in gedong,
i'll BLAST my RSM's head off.
OLD FOLLIES aren't they........so many fatigue.........
when you are going to ord, still treat you very bad, unless you heng,
kena good one then he'll relax on you.....but very hypocrite.......
ppl......pls do comment generously.........
If kanna some stress, you wan to shoot your WOSE, go out work next time not happy whack your boss? No right?
Yes, some of them like to scold pple.....but remember they are trained under the old system...where the sight of them strikes fear into your heart.
Quite a number of them are inside SAF when you are still in your diapers....give them some respect! I would rather follow a WOSE into battle than an scholar anyday! Yes...you may dun like them, but respect their rank and experience !!
No offence, just my two cents. -
yeah........ the WOSEs works very hard to climd up the ranks, their knowledge are more than those officers...
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i've tried to be understanding.......but they seems to have that
i am lau jiao here, you have to listen to me.......strike "fear"
indeed..........you have to earn respect.........
hence the title...are they holding saf back........ -
of cos u have to listen to them??
den u wana listen to who??
they r not holding the SAF back....they r the backbone of SAF as some poster have said..
so wats the big deal abt listen to pple?
if u wana prove them wrong abt anything..den sign on as a regular be a warrant officer..n prove tat their system is wrong -
Hey, WOSE's may chew out grunts any time of the year... but they are the ones who will get the job done with their years of experience.
For example, my ex-CSM of my recce coy was a terror, so much so that even the officers tried their best not to mess up. That CSM chewed me and my buddies out countless times, and dispensed extras for good measure. But he was darned effective. Under him, everything was chop-chop and siu-siu. Cos' nobody wanted to bum around and make him mad.
After he was posted out, many of my mates agreed that he was pretty much the best damned CSM we all had... cos' he had the 'lao-jiaoness' and sheer experience of what works and what doesn't (compared to young officers) to pull off nearly anything on time and on target.
In short, those are the fellows who are harsh on you in peacetime, but will bring you back alive in war. And for that, I've plenty of respect for WOSE's. -
wait till u meet one of those REALLY effed-up officer who knows a lot LESS than the WOSE but will boss u around and think they're god when the only thing they're capable of is pushing paper and getting men killed on the battlefield.
i prefer working with WOSE... they tell u properly what they want and how to best do it and when some young punk orcifer come and cause trouble, they'll cover u. -
hahahaha..
remind me of a scene that was cut from the movie "We Were Soldiers"
there's this officer (young fella) yelling and shouting at the men (consisting of sergeants, corporeals, private..) Then all of the men got put some medals and ribbons on their uniform...
but only 1 1stclass sergeant never put ( hes around 50 years of age, an experienced motherfucka) then that officer kaopei him...and ordered him to go put on his medals...
1/2 hr later that sergeant turn up butt naked.... the officer was shocked and wanted to scold him...but then he saluted him...
the sergeant was wearing a medal of honour -
i rather follow a wose into a battlefield , no way i gonna go wif a young officer who dont know hardship , this warrant officers had gone thru 10x more shit den those young commisioned officers , they know noting , there are good in paper work n welfare of men at camp , but when war time comes they will be in a shelter while all de wOse will be out wif the men on de battlefield n bring u back alive
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Warrant Officer Ranks
Warrant Officers are Specialists who have distinguished themselves with their dedication and professionalism. With more than 10 years of service, they are the most experienced personnel in the Army.
Because they are given Officer-type duties, their ranks are worn on the epaulettes. They have similar responsibilities and authority as Junior Officers.
A cut from MINDEF.COM -
This is where the entire objective of having WOSE take on more responsibilities have gone screwed.Originally posted by gUms:i rather follow a wose into a battlefield , no way i gonna go wif a young officer who dont know hardship , this warrant officers had gone thru 10x more shit den those young commisioned officers , they know noting , there are good in paper work n welfare of men at camp , but when war time comes they will be in a shelter while all de wOse will be out wif the men on de battlefield n bring u back alive
It breeds an unhealthy result of belittling the Junior Officer who maybe newly commissioned; when the WOSE can be assigned duties that are normally handled by a Captain.
A young Junior Officer may not have the experience, but he has the higher intellect, intelligence, and intensive training that an experienced WOSE maynot have gone through.
An experienced WOSE may have his own fixxed set views, and unless is prepared to accept new developments, may put himself and his command in jeopardy by thinking he is better than anyone.
Remember the proverb - "You can't teach Old Dogs new tricks" -
Er... Intellect?
I've met an Ah beng N level Recce LCP who explained his theories on psychology to me in Singlish terms... I 'A' level was all ears... damned impressed.
A minority of the officers, OTOH... Er. Sure, scholars left right center, but when it comes to handling people, really lack the smarts. -
its true... some of them are pig-ignorant when it comes to basic PR... its usually the specs and the csm running the show when things get ugly... where the orcifer go? meeting with OC to discuss the problem... by the time they come out, problem solved already loh...Originally posted by LeFire:Er... Intellect?
I've met an Ah beng N level Recce LCP who explained his theories on psychology to me in Singlish terms... I 'A' level was all ears... damned impressed.
A minority of the officers, OTOH... Er. Sure, scholars left right center, but when it comes to handling people, really lack the smarts.
they don't have the balls to even take on the smallest responsibilities when it comes to the crunch but they expect the platoon to trust him with their lives...
eh... he pretend to give orders while we pretend to follow them lor... but only a goondu follows orders without thinking who gives it and what for. u think people like doing extra work just because the officer who ordered it can't see how stupid it is?
this is a civillian army! u can't expect people to follow u blindly. especially the reservists... u think they'll take an officer's stupidity lying down? i think they'll rather shoot him and lead themselves... more efficient. -
Okay, maybe Orcifers are meant to do that.
Think about it this way. Big Shark tell groupa to chiong. Big Shark knows its part of the other plan. Groupa tell the sardines and ikan bilis wat to do and the sardines lead the ikan bilis into the battle. -
A few random thoughts:
In my opinion, officers decide WHAT needs to be done, and WOSEs focus on HOW it should be done. It is the exactly the same as the duties of the executives and the middle management of a corporation. Problems arise when an officer decides what should be done without stopping to consider if it can be done practically. This is very common because young officers do not think to consult their NCOs before making decisions. You get stupid plans that cannot possibly work and WOSEs trying to make them work "by magic".
Units operate like families. The officer is the father and the NCO under him (PS for a PC, CSM for an OC, etc.) is the mother. For example, the father decides that the children need new clothes and gives the mother the money for it. The mother then scolds them, makes them eat their lunch, scolds them until they get on the bus, scolds them while they try on their clothes, buys the clothes, then scolds them all the way home. In the same way, the PC decides that the men need more marksmanship training and obtains time at the range, ammunition, medical support, transport, etc. The PS then fucks the men upside-down until they fall in, fucks them left-right-center all the way to the range, fucks them inside-out while they shoot, fucks them some more, then fucks them until they get back and clean their rifles.
Most of the work of an officer is behind the scenes, like obtaining resources from higher ups (like ammunition in peace and artillery fire in war), planning and decision making. This work is "upward". What I mean by this is that the officer mostly deals with the people above him. In contrast, most of the work of an NCO is in the face of his men. His work is mostly "downward", dealing with people below him. Just like dad and mom.
Hope someone finds these enlightening.
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I don't really think the ORCIFER are that capable in deciding what needs to be done. Okay, to me, there are the senior officers, "MAJ" and above, and the junior orcifers, the LTs and some cases Captain. The Senior officers decide what to do with his units, and the junior Orcifers, just have to do it. In an sense, not all the "fuck-up" officers, screw up by their choice.
In any case, I agree with the earlier post. Most people would follow a specialist into battle than an officer. Unless the officer is as gung-ho as Rommel. Up to today, Rommel is the only "officer" in history, that I respect. Patton is just crazy. -
In a civilian environment - a manufacturing scenario:
A 52 year old foreman has thirty years of experience, only ITE certificate, leads a production team of 30 men.
A young Mechanical Engineer - recently graduated at 22 year old, got the job as Technical Executive (next level Production Executive).
The 45 year old Managing Director has only 12 years experience in this field of manufacturing, and has only a Diploma in Marketing.
Despite the Managing Director and Mechanical Engineer having less years of experience, they will be, and are expected to shorten their learning curve, and start performing.
Although, the foreman may have his years of experience in the manufacturing floor, he may be able to match the performance of the young Technical Executive.
However, he may not have the ability to challenge the Managing Director.
Armed with a basic degree, although the Technical Executive maybe a recent graduand getting his first job, it does not make him any less efficient that the foreman.
If the Foreman is to assume the position of the Managing Director, it will definitely impede the growth of the organisation, unless the Foreman is able to match the managerial skills of the M.D. -
back bone???
experience????
i think they are more interested in sa ka.......
eg, during the a coc post reception.
guess what, the wose are mess boys!!!!
what pride is that????
another eg, at wallaby, you ask for anything, all dun have.
when you say for your CO, everything have.......even the PAs
will have also......... -
stup de ceebye up lar , you think u farking big fark har , wan compare here compare there , go become toilet ic lar
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eh prince..dun come whining here when u get scewed in camp...now we understand y u hate WOSE so MUCH..cos ur fuck up..
a Gong-CB!!!
abit punishment onli KPKB...tsk tsk.. -
grow up boy... its a fact of life... wait till u see how LOW commissioned officers go to get their promotion... it not a great deal more glamourous.Originally posted by Prince38:back bone???
experience????
i think they are more interested in sa ka.......
eg, during the a coc post reception.
guess what, the wose are mess boys!!!!
what pride is that????
another eg, at wallaby, you ask for anything, all dun have.
when you say for your CO, everything have.......even the PAs
will have also.........
it happens outside as well... in schools, at work, everywhere... there'll always be people looking for a back-door.
u realise that many of us have a great deal of respect for WOSE. its not because we don't know their faults... they do cock up too... they're only human and shit happens.
but they generally do manage many situations a lot better than young punk orcifers or stuck up senior crabs. -
The army in the past is different from what we have now, education level is high, most of the people inside have a dip, A, ITE or at least O.
The "If I just work hard, I will get promoted" idea of the past no longer applies. Nowadays, working hard or having a cert really only just gets you up to a certain level. The rest, you must really "sa ka" or "satay" your immediate superior's butt to climb up the ladder or to get the chances to shine infront of the superiors. Meaning:- faster or better promotion prospects.
Stepping on the wrong toes, that's it, confirm heta kaki forever or kiss your SAF carrer goodbye.
Now...if 1 or 2 WOs is doing the "sataying" is fine (small group of black sheeps) but whole group of wannbes WOs doing it at the sametime and at the expense of the men. You get more back-stabbing incidents than productivity. And not to say, a whole lot of "too lan" men.
That is what I think prince38 meant by WOSE holding back SAF.
This is just my views, if I'm wrong, correct me! But don't flame me lah... -
shit.........kena flame liao.........
thanks octega. from same unit know the situation better.
this thread was started not becos of me doing alot of fatigue.......in fact kena excuse. it's when i see those ppl kena arrow to do the job, i feel bad. my unit 3/4 are clerks. but they always kena fatigue like carry sand bag, use creaky ladders to clean display cabinet.
even the contractors use scabber (i think sala spelling) to scale the 2 storey high cabinet. i do agree some officers are one of a kind too....all they do is to come up wif funny ideas, they arrow men to type lesson plans.but the ratio is like 1 such officer is to 3 such wose. fyi, 1 wose ask me to teacher's day card for his 2 daughters...
where got such things????
true enough when i go field, some wose's experience really show,
and green horn officers really act smart.
but wose from my unit tend to MIA in field and when ex cut, they will appear out of know where.........that's PURE EXPERIENCE MAN!!!
Dun Flame me so fast.............................. -
why so aggresive? former regular wose?Originally posted by gUms:stup de ceebye up lar , you think u farking big fark har , wan compare here compare there , go become toilet ic lar
hahahha....just asking you guys for your point of views only mah......
nathan also..........
anyway me going to ord soon naturally i can KPKB rite.
in side camp cannot talk, now online also cannot talk meh.......
anyway, i am a very positive person in camp( can ask octega). so i shall say it's just that wose tend to be more "STRAIGHT FORWARD" and "EXPRESSIVE" and Officers more "MANIPULATIVE"
diplomatically correct? -
Erm... Let me just say this :
"It is every soldier's God-given right to bitch."
Well Prince38, I think you were just unlucky to end up with WOSE's that are not that good. Bo pian lah.