PROTEST AGAINST COMPULSORY ANNUITY
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May be they want to start small, in future I believe they will extend to other places as well.Originally posted by caleb_chiang:I'll be working then... but I'll wear black...
I think it should be a whole island thingy...
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You fail to understand that it is precisely because a minority live beyond 87 that makes it possible to offer a decent annuity payout with a small investment. Insurance is about shared risks. Those who die at 60 subsidizes those who live beyond 87. If everyone lives beyond 87, we would have to drastically increase the initial investment (which the poor cannot afford) or drastically reduce the monthloy payout (which is insufficient to live on).Originally posted by eagle:As I have said earlier, take a look at the obiturary and count how many people died passed the age of 87, bearing in mind that most chinese increase their age of death by either 2 or 3 to make it an even number. -
so because of a few minority, you have to force the rest of the population to buy?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:You fail to understand that it is precisely because a minority live beyond 87 that makes it possible to offer a decent annuity payout with a small investment. Insurance is about shared risks. Those who die at 60 subsidizes those who live beyond 87. If everyone lives beyond 87, we would have to drastically increase the initial investment (which the poor cannot afford) or drastically reduce the monthloy payout (which is insufficient to live on).
Just exactly how many is the minority, that the increase in GST cannot help?
Open the newspaper and count everyday, if u wish.
Imagine this in school: Just because a few people score badly in class, the whole class have to stay for extra lessons?
"Those who die at 60 subsidizes those who live beyond 87"
So you are penalised by dying early? Penalised because you cannot continue to feed the coffers any further?
Finally, I don't know if you even passed your comprehension. If you understood what I have said, you would have seen that I referred purely to the reason given for buying annuity, which meant:
1) Singaporeans are living longer (longer than 87, how many)
2) You need CPF/annuity to survive (Singaporeans are stupid, need to be taught how to save)
I'm in no position to say how much benefits you can get or lose. -
lol..think of it as army..one for all, all for one.Originally posted by eagle:so because of a few minority, you have to force the rest of the population to buy?
Just exactly how many is the minority, that the increase in GST cannot help?
Open the newspaper and count everyday, if u wish.
Imagine this in school: Just because a few people score badly in class, the whole class have to stay for extra lessons?
"Those who die at 60 subsidizes those who live beyond 87"
So you are penalised by dying early? Penalised because you cannot continue to feed the coffers any further? -
Well, do you think in the army, the people at the top understand what the people at the bottom are living and what they are thinking?Originally posted by kramnave:lol..think of it as army..one for all, all for one. -
Communism ...Originally posted by kramnave:lol..think of it as army..one for all, all for one. -
They are quite clever.
Fancy putting on a nice table cloth to conceal the ants below it.
Poor ants getting bullied time and again.
How ...... -
Then its up to Singaporeans to think whether they want the government to set policies to aid the aged when they live past expected lifespan or everybody for themselves. There won't be an ideal policy to fit everybody in. We want pension but we do not want to pay tax...basically thats the divide.Originally posted by eagle:Well, do you think in the army, the people at the top understand what the people at the bottom are living and what they are thinking? -
I am not sure why new generation school children now are getting more bullied. in the genes?Originally posted by kawasaki2:They are quite clever.
Fancy putting on a nice table cloth to conceal the ants below it.
Poor ants getting bullied time and again.
How ......
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what you said is funny.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:What's there to protest about? It has to be compulsory for the scheme to work.
If it is not compulsory, the well-off who have plenty put aside in investments for old age may well opt out, leaving the poor who have very meagre savings in the system. And of course not everyone will live to be 85.......
The rich is only 10% or so.
As you said, the rich can opt out. But they so rich, why they would opt out ? They basically have no urgent need to tap on their CPF. Opt in or out for them is not an issue. So, they may save the trouble to opt out and accept opt in. Of course there is no opt out option now.
So, unlikely more than 1% of the rich will opt out.
As you also said, the majority poorer, may like annuity like you.
So, why you worry about them opting out?
Thus, Opt Out should be safely given as an option, by your logic. the logic of oxford mushroom. He is the one whose views allow me to support my logic of Opting Out. Gazelle, report to your farmer master, he sabo your clan.
feel free to be as angry as you want about my reply. -
Where I want my money to go is my prerogative. Even after I pass on, its of no business of the government. (personally I'd like it to go to my children, but thats just me) Leave it optional and open the option for citizens to chose to purchase an annuity from a pte insurance company on an individual basis.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:What's there to protest about? It has to be compulsory for the scheme to work.
If it is not compulsory, the well-off who have plenty put aside in investments for old age may well opt out, leaving the poor who have very meagre savings in the system. And of course not everyone will live to be 85. It is the richer contributor who dies at 60 and does not benefit a cent from the scheme who subsidizes the poor man with hardly a few hundred dollars in his CPF who lives on beyond 85.
Insurance companies are not charities. If you have a smaller base of contributors drawn mainly from the poor, the annuity payouts will be much smaller.
If everyone lives to be 89, then we can only expect to have much smaller payouts, which may not be sufficient for us to live on. If most people die at 60 and only a handful lives to be 89, those few octagenarians can be assured of a decent handout and a comfortable lifestyle. Of course those who die earlier lose out and those who live longer benefit more. But if you die at 60, you won't need the extra cash anyway.
If they want to make it compulsory, use the increased revenue from the 2% GST increase. No one else should dictate how my money is spent. -
I am really so scared if someone not intended to involve in the black shirt party appear there get arrested ?
Is this possible? or unfounded fear?
Is it that all who wear black will kanah?
So many leh. How they select?
I think if someone just appears in black and go shopping, nothing should happen to them. But then, would that signal to singapore that some can participate in the event and yet nothing can be done to them if they are so 'cunning' ? I could guess at least 1000 people may be wearing black even if they dun participate or are aware of the event.
I am so freakin scared siah !!!
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Your fears are understandable, as the idea of a public protest is still very young in Singapore, in fact, an alien concept to some as well.Originally posted by reddressman:I am really so scared if someone not intended to involve in the black shirt party appear there get arrested ?
Is this possible? or unfounded fear?
Is it that all who wear black will kanah?
So many leh. How they select?
I think if someone just appears in black and go shopping, nothing should happen to them. But then, would that signal to singapore that some can participate in the event and yet nothing can be done to them if they are so 'cunning' ? I could guess at least 1000 people may be wearing black even if they dun participate or are aware of the event.
I am so freakin scared siah !!!
The government, before taking action, will have balance control and credibility. If they do go around arresting shoppers dressed in black at random, what is it going to look like? I personally hope it does not happen, but if it happens, I hope it gets covered in the press, both foreign and local.
Just a reminder, read the post no. 17 in this thread where I quoted the guy that started this going. will paste it again here for your convenience :Hi everyone.
Please remember this event is to show our displeasure over the forced compulsory annuities that starts payouts at age 85 and forfeits our capital upon death before 85. It is not against the current annuities available.
Please also don't be foolish enough to get identified and marked for life. There are many people here who have many different agendas, please do not in a moment of anger against the government be used by them.
We have to remember why we are going to CentrePoint dressed in black on 8th September 2007.
8th September 2007 is a day we all go shopping in CentrePoint, but dressed in black. When you are there, please don't just stand there - you may get singled out - just go shopping within CentrePoint. There is no need to be fully black from head to toe, just either the top or bottom is black can liao.
I am strongly against any suggestions that will identify the participants. I disagree with wearing a black armband or a black ribbon or anything that will sets us apart, I think it is a very foolish idea as such items will identify us.
It will make it very much easier for the authorities to differentiate who are the real shoppers and who are those against the compulsory annuities scheme.
Being identified is not the name of the game. We don't intend to be martyrs - please make sure you don't become one.
It is a citizens' effort, we don't need people like CSJ because we are not making a political statement. We do it because we love - we want equitable policies for ourselves and our love ones. So, please don't be used by others for their own hidden agendas.
Shopping is not a crime. Shopping dressed in black is also not a crime. We just want to tell the government, please think of us when they come out with future policies. It is not our aim to bring down the government. We just want them to know that we have feelings, we have aspirations and we know how to think and in future, when they come up with policies, they should be equitable policies.
So, just go shopping with friends and relatives - no need for heroics. And for maximum impact, it will be good if all of us can be there from 4pm onwards. Can you just imagine an entire CentrePoint building of shoppers dressed in black? Shopping is a national pastime, so let's just go shopping on the 8th September 2007 dressed in black in CentrePoint for a good cause! -
Amongst many other problems, using GST to pay for the annuity means everybody gets it, even those without CPF. How is that then different from raising tax to provide welfare benefits ?Originally posted by Jontst78:Where I want my money to go is my prerogative. Even after I pass on, its of no business of the government. (personally I'd like it to go to my children, but thats just me) Leave it optional and open the option for citizens to chose to purchase an annuity from a pte insurance company on an individual basis.
If they want to make it compulsory, use the increased revenue from the 2% GST increase. No one else should dictate how my money is spent. -
I am all for Sensible , Peaceful, Smart way of communication.
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Anything can be possible --- PH -
Actually, personal PoV, I am ok with raising taxes to help the poor. Provided the poor are really receive the help. But then again, the GST is the wrong tax to raise IMO. Maybe raise the taxes of the higher income groups would be the way to go.Originally posted by kramnave:Amongst many other problems, using GST to pay for the annuity means everybody gets it, even those without CPF. How is that then different from raising tax to provide welfare benefits ?
With our current tax curve, our higher income earners do benefit alot more than the rich of other developed nations. -
My friends and me would like to go shopping on that Saturday but only from 6pm onwards.
Can shift to 6pm or not ? will there be 'shoppers' by 6pm or not?
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How to go shopping at Orchard like that?
Black T shirt cannot, brown T shirt cannot, white elephant Tshirt also cannot. -
Nothing will happen lah. Just go there and not stay in a big group.Originally posted by charlize:How to go shopping at Orchard like that?
Black T shirt cannot, brown T shirt cannot, white elephant Tshirt also cannot. -
True, raising personal income tax would be the most logical way. However the tax received from higher income groups would not be enough to cover the lower income group. Therefore, raising income tax across the board other than on the lowest of income would be more feasible. That is if the ageing Singaporean population conceive more or manage to attract more foreigners to come in and contribute to tax. Then we might get a problem of that is my money again. However it is unlikely that the government would do such a thing.Originally posted by Jontst78:Actually, personal PoV, I am ok with raising taxes to help the poor. Provided the poor are really receive the help. But then again, the GST is the wrong tax to raise IMO. Maybe raise the taxes of the higher income groups would be the way to go.
With our current tax curve, our higher income earners do benefit alot more than the rich of other developed nations. -
Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual. -Thomas JeffersonOriginally posted by hloc:Nothing will happen lah. Just go there and not stay in a big group.
Assembly law is just when the law is just, assembly law is unjust when the law is unjust. When assembly law become unjust, it is just for people to gather and make the unjust law just again. Isn't it? -
Every saturday, I and friends go there shopping. So, Is there a law saying on Saturdays, near Ctrpoint, no one is legally allowed to wear anything Black?
Must hair also not be black?
As long as no CSJ stewpidity, I think shoppers can still go to CtrPoint right ? For shopping.
But I am concerned they will think wrongly like misinterprete I go there in support of the call. I am going there to shop only. To support economy. And If on that day, my shirt that is available is black, what can i do?
Hope they dun harrass me and friends lor. Sercarly angmor / china / india tourists dunno and proud proud wear black how?
i so scared leh. I must not say I support or not the wear black campaign. Animals will report to their leaders. I scared , very the scared. -
Only 40% of working Singaporeans pay income tax as it is. The top income earners are already shouldering a disproportionate amount of the financial burden for the nation. Raising personal income tax will hit the middle class only. The very wealthy and those with skills that are highly sought after can easily uproot and move to Hong Kong, where the income tax is lower.Originally posted by kramnave:True, raising personal income tax would be the most logical way. However the tax received from higher income groups would not be enough to cover the lower income group. Therefore, raising income tax across the board other than on the lowest of income would be more feasible. That is if the ageing Singaporean population conceive more or manage to attract more foreigners to come in and contribute to tax. Then we might get a problem of that is my money again. However it is unlikely that the government would do such a thing.
Compulsory annuity is absolutely necessary to ensure that those who live into the eighties and have little savings will continue to have a decent lifestyle. The nation's interest is more important than personal rights. If people don't like it here, they are free to go elsewhere.
Go to Norway and they will slap on you up to 60% income tax...and you still think it's your money? -
Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Compulsory annuity is absolutely necessary to ensure that those who live into the eighties and have little savings will continue to have a decent lifestyle. The nation's interest is more important than personal rights. If people don't like it here, they are free to go elsewhere.
The reason that "compulsory annuity is absolutely necessary to ensure that those who live into the eighties and have little savings will continue to have a decent lifestyle" just gives the impression of what I have posted before.Originally posted by eagle:1) Singaporeans are living longer (longer than 87, how many)
2) You need CPF/annuity to survive (Singaporeans are stupid, need to be taught how to save)
With the increase in the CPF withdrawal age, it wouldn't be for those who live into the eighties, but rather, for those who are going to live into their nineties. Just how many of these people are there? -
You must understand in welfare state such as Norway and Sweden, the reason why they have high income tax is because they bring benefits to its citizens, in the form of sickness and disability benefits, minimum guaranteed pensions (minimum 65% of your last drawn pay), free universal health care, unemployment insurance, free education all the way to even university level.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Only 40% of working Singaporeans pay income tax as it is. The top income earners are already shouldering a disproportionate amount of the financial burden for the nation. Raising personal income tax will hit the middle class only. The very wealthy and those with skills that are highly sought after can easily uproot and move to Hong Kong, where the income tax is lower.
Compulsory annuity is absolutely necessary to ensure that those who live into the eighties and have little savings will continue to have a decent lifestyle. The nation's interest is more important than personal rights. If people don't like it here, they are free to go elsewhere.
Go to Norway and they will slap on you up to 60% income tax...and you still think it's your money?