Let's compare the worklife of Japan, Europe, and Singapore
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No,no,no,if u were to include housing n transport and other miscellaneous stuff,then Singapore would be even worse.Originally posted by eagle:I wouldn't compare it this way.
We can get a can drink for a dollar 30 centres at coffee shops, less than a dollar in supermarkets
we can get very full meals at < 5 dollars
we can get a large main course < 8 dollars too
If you really want to save, there are still <4 dollars for rather full meals at food courts. Cai Png at $2.50 for 1 meat 2 vege.
You can't compare food prices just like that. Most would include housing and transport and other miscellaneous stuff. -
And food is not cheap in Singapore as well.Take a look at the recently open shoppong complex,AMK hub.The food prices inside the food court are incredibly high.I eat roasted duck Mee near my place for just $3,but at there,it cost $5.
Yes,of coz,i can choose not to eat there.But what about going to the Cinema there.They wont allow us to bring outside food,n sometimes,we have to buy their tibits down there.And i tell u,their "tibits" is not cheap.Its expensive "Wh0re"!!! -
Regarding Cinema, I can assure you that in Germany, the student price once a week is 4 euros. However, there are "hidden" costs, which can make the cheapest student ticket around 6.50 euros in the end.Originally posted by drawer:And food is not cheap in Singapore as well.Take a look at the recently open shoppong complex,AMK hub.The food prices inside the food court are incredibly high.I eat roasted duck Mee near my place for just $3,but at there,it cost $5.
Yes,of coz,i can choose not to eat there.But what about going to the Cinema there.They wont allow us to bring outside food,n sometimes,we have to buy their tibits down there.And i tell u,their "tibits" is not cheap.Its expensive "Wh0re"!!! -
i think overall, sg is trying to make us very competitive by promoting to MNCs/other countries companies that if u hire singaporeans to work for you, we guarantee that they will be:
-very efficient (means we work harder than other countries)
-very cost effective (cheaper labour cost and more working days per yr)
-more equippied with knowledge and skills
-willing to work until old age and take pay-cut (the new scheme govt come out with)
-very digillent workers (no complaints, no strikes)
if you're the boss of MNC trying to set up a branch in SEA, and in a more developed country, of cos will choose sg over others cos of these factors. as long as i can remember, i was taught to shut up and do my work. i m not allowed to complain, relax just for a bit, or to copy other countries like India to express my unhappiness by very obvious means like strike. -
Is it not ironical that Singaporeans need to be encouraged to work till pass 70 years of age, while other First World Countries are assisting their Citizens with programs to retire at 50 ?
Retired by 50: What it really takes
It's possible to pinch pennies in your 30s so that you can give up the daily grind by 50. Just don't expect to spend the rest of your life on the golf course
By Liz Pulliam Weston.
Think it's impossible to retire in your 40s? I'd like you to meet some ordinary folks who have done it.
"Ordinary" may be a misnomer, because retiring after just 20 years or so in the workplace is an extraordinary act, and most took extraordinary measures to get where they are. But they're ordinary in the sense that they were working people with pretty regular jobs. They didn't strike it rich with stock options, inheritances or the lottery.
Most of them have kids. Most lived in high-cost areas -- Los Angeles, San Francisco, Washington, D.C., suburban New Jersey. Most didn't start really saving until their 30s (although the one who started at 28 wound up retiring at 35).
Their retirements look different from the retirements depicted on television. These folks don't live on the golf course or roam the country in 32-foot recreational vehicles. Most, in fact, are actually still working -- but usually part time and in their own businesses, doing things they feel strongly about. They've retired from the 9-to-5 world, but not from their passions.
In short, their retirements look a lot like the retirements many people have planned for themselves; about two-thirds of baby boomers plan to work in retirement, according to an AARP poll.
The folks I'm writing about are just two or three decades ahead of schedule.
People who retire so early often have several traits in common, said Jan Dahlin Geiger, a Certified Financial Planner and author of the book, "Get Your Assets in Gear! Smart Money Strategies."They're:
Allergic to debt."Debt is the opposite of savings," Geiger said, "and you don't get to be rich if you don't save."
Acutely aware of the power of time. Early retirees know that the sooner they put money to work for them, the more they'll eventually have. Even small amounts, if diligently saved and invested, can grow to whopping sums over time, thanks to the power of compound interest.
Janine Bolon
More interested in their goal than what the neighbors think.You may realize that you can't keep up with the Joneses and have any hope of retiring early (or even of retiring at all, depending on how far you take your consumerism). But you may not understand how very different your life might have to be from those around you to retire young.
The first two couples I'll introduce you to illustrate that point vividly. Let's meet them now.
The Bolons
Janine and Brad Bolon were 30-something "DINKs" -- dual income, no kids -- when a pregnancy and two books completely changed their lives.
Janine, a biochemist, wanted to be a stay-at-home mom, a decision that would cause their nearly six-figure income to drop by about half.
But the two books -- "Your Money or Your Life" by Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin, and "The Complete Tightwad Gazette" by Amy Dacyczyn -- convinced her that she could not only stay at home, but also save enough doing so that Brad could retire in 14 years.
She wrote up a plan and showed it to her husband.
"He was skeptical," Bolon remembers. "(But) he said, 'Knock yourself out.'"
She did. Her savings strategy, coupled with a boost in Brad's income and a cooperative real-estate market, helped them reach their goal a few years early, even with the arrival of three more kids and while living in one of the country's most expensive areas.
Keeping costs low
Shortly after their eldest daughter was born, Brad accepted a job that more than doubled his pay to $110,000 but that required a move from their home in New Jersey to Southern California.
Although Brad's co-workers were living in McMansions and gated communities, the Bolons bought a 1,500-square-foot townhouse in a less-affluent area of Thousand Oaks. The townhouse was literally across the street from Brad's office, which meant he could stroll to work and the family could get by with one car -- "a beat-up old pickup," Janine called it.
The family was also within walking distance of three grocery stores and a public library, which further reduced their fuel consumption. Janine home-schooled the kids, now ages 11, 8, 5 and 4, and made saving money her priority.
"We made a whole bunch of life decisions that put us in a good position," Janine said. "We lived on $33,000 to $36,000 a year. . . . The rest of our income we were stuffing into investments and Brad's 401(k)."
Their lifestyle was incomprehensible to many around them. Her middle-income neighbors would sometimes leave donations, such as clothes for the kids, on her porch.
"They were the nicest people," Janine said. "They assumed we must be pennies away from bankruptcy."
Snubbed but satisfied
The Bolons remember a distinctly chillier reception from some of Brad's co-workers who lived in vast homes, sent their kids to private schools and drove fancy cars. But Janine said she never let their snubs bother her.
"I would walk into (a work social event) in my $60 thrift-store gown and my $10 Payless shoes and I would feel like an actual millionaire, because I was and they weren't," Janine said. "I didn't have to drive a Mercedes to show people I'm wealthy."
In 2004, after eight years in California, the family pulled the plug. The Bolons sold their townhouse for a tidy profit and moved to a home in Cedar City, Utah, for which they paid cash.
The family could live solely on the income from investments, Janine said, but they prefer to leave the money alone to grow. Brad consults for a local community college. Janine is studying for a Ph.D. and has created a part-time business teaching others her money-saving techniques through books, a Web site and lectures.
Their passion now is philanthropy. The Bolons believe strongly that giving away at least 20% of the family's income is essential to their financial and spiritual success.
continue below -
continuation
Fred Ecks and Ann Haebig
Work always seemed a bit overrated to Fred Ecks, 41.
Ecks got his first full-time job at 21 after graduating from California Polytechnic State University with a degree in computer science. Eight months later, he headed back to school to get a master's degree.
"I missed the freedom," Ecks said, "and the opportunity to learn something new every day."
He lasted about a year at his next full-time job before returning to school for a doctorate. At one point, he tried to figure out how much he would need to save to live on the interest of his investments, given the 8% or so that short-term government bonds could earn back then. The sum -- $121,000 -- seemed impossibly huge at the time.
"We saved $35 a month by hanging the laundry instead of using the dryer," Janine said. "We didn't use our air conditioner more than six or seven days of the year," an accomplishment in sunny Southern California.
"We went to 'U pick it' farms. I'd go with the kids and we'd pick fruit . . . and can them and make preserves," Janine said. "And I used a price book. That saved us $3,000 to $5,000 every year."
(A price book, for frugality newbies, is a notebook where you track the prices of commonly purchased items at local stores over time so you can spot the true bargains and stock up.)
As Brad's income rose, the family resisted the urge to ratchet up its spending and instead focused on building its net worth.
"It would take me 10 years to save that much. I'd be 34," he remembered thinking. That seemed impossibly old, "so I gave up."
Ecks eventually settled in to full-time work, got married and bought a house in Boulder, Colo. He had a mortgage, credit card debt "and lots of toys," Ecks remembered. And he was getting "tired of being tired all of the time."
He was at a coffee shop when he heard a radio program about the book, "Your Money or Your Life" (the same book that helped transform the Bolons' lives). He went next door to a bookstore and bought the tome, which he "devoured" over the next weekend. He became "a man with a mission" to save enough money so that he could say goodbye forever to paid work.
That was in 1994, when he was 28. Seven years later, at age 35, he achieved his goal, although he said it's only recently that he's felt comfortable saying he's retired.
Living in a van
There were some bumps along the way. His wife didn't share his sense of mission, and they parted ways. He accepted a job at Sun Microsystems and moved back to California, living in his van in the company's parking lot for six months while he continued making payments on the Colorado house.
Eventually the home sold, and Ecks moved into the first of a series of shared apartments and rented rooms. In the notoriously high-cost Silicon Valley, he never paid more than $600 a month for shelter. When a friend totaled his van, he paid cash for a used Geo Metro to replace it. He ate out infrequently, cooked cheap meals at home and shopped for clothes and household goods at thrift stores.
The Sun Microsystems job paid well and had benefits, although Ecks never cracked the $100,000 annual pay mark. Still, he saved 50% of his gross income while still pursuing his passions, including learning to sail and traveling. He visited Mexico and Guatemala on a Green Tortoise bus and drove to Alaska, among other destinations.
He wanted more meaning in his work, though, so in 1999 he took a computer job with Greenpeace at the environmental organization's world headquarters in Amsterdam, Netherlands. Although his pay was less than one-third of what he'd been making at Sun, his cost of living was lower as well, and he still managed to save 25% of his income.
After a year or so, he was ready to come home. He convinced Greenpeace to let him work half time in San Francisco. He then bought the "world's smallest condo" -- a 307-square-foot space, about the size of a decent hotel room -- in downtown San Francisco shortly after Sept. 11, 2001. He paid the $127,250 purchase price with a check.
By the end of that year, he was ready to say goodbye to paid work. He told Greenpeace to stop paying him even though he continued working four hours a day as a volunteer. He now had the ability to take off when he wanted, which he soon did by sailing to Mexico with a friend.
He'd also met a woman who shared his passion for simple living and financial independence. Ann Haebig, now 38, said she's "always been frugal"
"Even in college I had in mind the idea of saving 'enough' and eventually quitting," said Haebig, who works as a database architect. "I didn't know how to make that goal real in any concrete way until I found 'Your Money or Your Life' in 1999 or 2000. I started charting my progress in earnest then."
Setting sail
Eventually, Ecks sold the condo for $235,000, and the couple rented a house for a while before buying an old houseboat for $3,100. They had it towed to a marina in south San Francisco where Ecks could also moor his 30-year-old, 27-foot sailboat. Berth rent and a live-aboard fee set the couple back $600 a month.
Ecks figures his total monthly expenses run about $1,500, which is actually less than his investments earn. Ann works half time at CompuMentor and expects to be retired entirely within seven years.
Interestingly, Ann's passion for her goal of early retirement isn't as strong since she stepped down from full-time work to part-time employment a few years ago.
"I used to be a dot-commer working too many hours at a job I just didn't care about. Now I'm working half-time at a nonprofit and still saving money, while spending my freed-up time on projects I really care about," Ann said. "If I have to keep working longer because my salary's decreased, that's OK with me. The journey's pleasant enough now that I'm not racing to save that magic number of dollars like I once was."
Ecks is concerned enough about the eroding power of inflation that he keeps half of his portfolio in stock-market investments (the other half is in Treasury bonds). But his experience, and that of many others who have embraced simple living, is that expenses actually go down over time as they get better at trimming costs.
In any case, Ecks said, the couple feels wealthy where it counts: in time and freedom.
"It's not what you have," he said. "It's how little you need."
In my next column, I'll introduce you to three more couples who have taken somewhat different paths to early retirement. In the meantime, here's what you can take away from these two stories:
What matters more than what you make is what you save (although a bigger income and rising home equity can get you to your goal sooner).
The decisions you make on the big expenses in your life -- where you live, what you drive, how much energy you burn -- have a profound impact on how much you can save.
That said, no expense is too small to review if your goal is to get out of work early. Trimming expenses not only allows you to save more, but means you can live on less in retirement, thus speeding you to your goal.
Columns by Liz Pulliam Weston, the Web's most-read personal-finance writer and winner of the 2007 Clarion Award for online journalism, appear every Monday and Thursday, exclusively on MSN Money. She also answers reader questions on the Your Money message board.
Published Sept. 13, 2007
Click here for Three more real Life Stories of couples retiring early. -
I was at Dusseldorf Germany for abt 3 mths last April. I'm agreed wif their average salary of 2-3k euro after tax for most of the middle income group. however, they hv no coffee shop, food court or snack bar as in sg. a simples meal in those very low end rest will oso cost u abt 10 euro. those bread from the bakery like our bread talk, cost ard 2-4 euro...Originally posted by soul_rage:As I mentioned, in Germany, after income tax, they still have 2k to 3k+ for the middle income group
And no, their cost of living isn't super high as well given their pay, coz I was there for a period of time.
a bottle of 1.5L mineral water cost 1.05euro
patrol at 1.4 euro per litter....
I cant imagine if i was to live there wif 2-3k S$
note : 1 euro = S$1.99 -
The area I was in (Stuttgart), I believe avg housing is about 100+k euros to about 300+k euros.Originally posted by drawer:No,no,no,if u were to include housing n transport and other miscellaneous stuff,then Singapore would be even worse.
You can buy a Mercedes, Audi, etc for about 20+k euros.
You can buy a sports car for about 30+k euros -
Its because you are not in their culture.Originally posted by baby hunter:I was at Dusseldorf Germany for abt 3 mths last April. I'm agreed wif their average salary of 2-3k euro after tax for most of the middle income group. however, they hv no coffee shop, food court or snack bar as in sg. a simples meal in those very low end rest will oso cost u abt 10 euro. those bread from the bakery like our bread talk, cost ard 2-4 euro...
a bottle of 1.5L mineral water cost 1.05euro
patrol at 1.4 euro per litter....
I cant imagine if i was to live there wif 2-3k S$
note : 1 euro = S$1.99
Most of them prepare their own food for lunch or eat in for dinner. That's how they save money.
And believe me, if you are in their culture, you wouldn't be eating out so frequently as well. Its a Singapore culture to eat out for breakfast, lunch, dinner.
Amid the rising prices of hawker food (these days, you normally have to spend S$3 to S$4 for a meal, so I don't see it any different from the costs over there), my wife said that one day, if the hawker food prices hit a trigger point, we will become like Europe too, cooking our own food and bringing it for lunch or dining at home. -
huhh...culture?Originally posted by soul_rage:Its because you are not in their culture.
Most of them prepare their own food for lunch or eat in for dinner. That's how they save money.
And believe me, if you are in their culture, you wouldn't be eating out so frequently as well. Its a Singapore culture to eat out for breakfast, lunch, dinner..
if you can afford to eat out who wants to prepare, cook and wash up for every meal?
if you can have variety of food in the hawker center or food court, why would you want to eat simple and similar food at home day in day out? These days how many dishes can young wives prepare, besides BBQ and steamboat, and of course instant noodle and fried eggs?
if you can have different types of fruit juice everyday, would you want to wash your juicer or blender everyday just for one cup of juice?
In Europe, you don't leave any restaurant without leaving behind 20 Euros after a simple meal! In Singapore, you still can get by with S$10 in a simple restaurant, S$6 for a plate of seafood hor fan, and S$2 for a drink, and the +++ add up to S$10. In hawker center, you definitely pay less, even a korean BBQ beef dish would cost you S$5,50, add S$1.5 for a drink, you get a good meal, where you find that in Europe?Originally posted by soul_rage:Amid the rising prices of hawker food (these days, you normally have to spend S$3 to S$4 for a meal, so I don't see it any different from the costs over there), my wife said that one day, if the hawker food prices hit a trigger point, we will become like Europe too, cooking our own food and bringing it for lunch or dining at home.
If it is just the two of you in your family, eating out would cost you S$12, how much you think you need to spend cooking at home, don't assume that gas, water...are free of charge. Even a bigger fridge will use up more electricity to keep your grocery. Where is the trigger point? how many days of instant noodle can you tahan? -
Originally posted by sgdiehard
huhh...culture?
if you can afford to eat out who wants to prepare, cook and wash up for every meal?
if you can have variety of food in the hawker center or food court, why would you want to eat simple and similar food at home day in day out? These days how many dishes can young wives prepare, besides BBQ and steamboat, and of course instant noodle and fried eggs?
if you can have different types of fruit juice everyday, would you want to wash your juicer or blender everyday just for one cup of juice?
In Europe, you don't leave any restaurant without leaving behind 20 Euros after a simple meal! In Singapore, you still can get by with S$10 in a simple restaurant, S$6 for a plate of seafood hor fan, and S$2 for a drink, and the +++ add up to S$10. In hawker center, you definitely pay less, even a korean BBQ beef dish would cost you S$5,50, add S$1.5 for a drink, you get a good meal, where you find that in Europe?
If it is just the two of you in your family, eating out would cost you S$12, how much you think you need to spend cooking at home, don't assume that gas, water...are free of charge. Even a bigger fridge will use up more electricity to keep your grocery. Where is the trigger point? how many days of instant noodle can you tahan?
Hi sgdiehard
have you tried the carrot cake I mentioned to you at Lor 1 Toa Payoh beside the Macs?
Anyway, pertaining to your question, again I would like to say that its not in our culture to prepare food at home. In Europe, its not about the pains of cooking. Its about the healthy idea of preparing your own food and whipping up a meal with the private time you have (which is sorely lacking in Singapore since we work like slaves anyway).
Besides, Europeans love salad and sandwiches in general. Preparation isn't difficult. I have done that before, gone into their way of life. Quite healthy I would say
coming back to your idea of a restaurant in europe where you need to spend 20 euros, can I ask where were you when you ate in the restaurant?
Coz the restaurant I had in Germany cost me no more than 10 euros most of the time, and the portions are huge.
Try their pasta at 5 to 7 euros, its easily 2 x the portion we have here.
Oh and by the way, red wine costs as cheap as < 2 euros to 4 euros in supermarkets, and c.ocktails cost only 0.99 euro for 1 litre. And red wine is good for health. -
erm what type of resturant did you eat at?Originally posted by sgdiehard:In Europe, you don't leave any restaurant without leaving behind 20 Euros after a simple meal! In Singapore, you still can get by with S$10 in a simple restaurant, S$6 for a plate of seafood hor fan, and S$2 for a drink, and the +++ add up to S$10. In hawker center, you definitely pay less, even a korean BBQ beef dish would cost you S$5,50, add S$1.5 for a drink, you get a good meal, where you find that in Europe?
If it is just the two of you in your family, eating out would cost you S$12, how much you think you need to spend cooking at home, don't assume that gas, water...are free of charge. Even a bigger fridge will use up more electricity to keep your grocery. Where is the trigger point? how many days of instant noodle can you tahan?
I went to berlin and didn't stinge on food. and i could goto a cafe/resturant and have a real full meal for like 8 euros or less . and its western food kind, ribs, etc with big servings. add a drink and its still just over 10.
You said it cost 2-4 euros for a "sandwich/pastry", it does and its enough for a meal. as filling as a hawker centre/foodcourt meal and its the same price.
theres more to cooking at home than instant noodles btw, although i guess its a cultural thing. -
there are asian take-overs, that include rice, meat and veg at about 3 euros. And no, its not like our hawkers, taking the meat and counting the pieces. There, the portions are bigger.Originally posted by hisoka:erm what type of resturant did you eat at?
I went to berlin and didn't stinge on food. and i could goto a cafe/resturant and have a real full meal for like 8 euros or less . and its western food kind, ribs, etc with big servings. add a drink and its still just over 10.
You said it cost 2-4 euros for a "sandwich/pastry", it does and its enough for a meal. as filling as a hawker centre/foodcourt meal and its the same price.
theres more to cooking at home than instant noodles btw, although i guess its a cultural thing.
Instant noodles is a culture for Singapore, coz most of us don't cook anymore. I can cook up steak, pan-fried salmon fillet, chicken wings, ommelettes, pasta, etc at home with minimal fuss.
I guess if I cook regularly, I get better and better at minimizing cleaning up. -
actually i prefered the bread, though not as fillingOriginally posted by soul_rage:there are asian take-overs, that include rice, meat and veg at about 3 euros. And no, its not like our hawkers, taking the meat and counting the pieces. There, the portions are bigger.
Instant noodles is a culture for Singapore, coz most of us don't cook anymore. I just whipped up steak, pan-fried salmon fillet, chicken wings, ommelettes, pasta, etc at home with minimal fuss.
I guess if I cook regularly, I get better and better at minimizing cleaning up.
nice bread there, and its a change
-
Originally posted by soul_rage:
I was in Paris, Cologne, Dusseldorf, on an average, I spent 20 euros in restaurant. Sandwick, lasagna take away from mobile stalls no counted. I don't dispute the figures you quoted, and it is a fact that wine is cheaper than water, rarely find freshly squeezed fruit juice. Drinking wine is a culture, but not cooking at home. remember how often your grandparents, or your parents eat out when your dad were young? Today it is the younger ones who are busy and not eating at home with parents, not the other way round, a change in culture? probably, for the better, no.
Hi sgdiehard
have you tried the carrot cake I mentioned to you at Lor 1 Toa Payoh beside the Macs?
Anyway, pertaining to your question, again I would like to say that its not in our culture to prepare food at home. In Europe, its not about the pains of cooking. Its about the healthy idea of preparing your own food and whipping up a meal with the private time you have (which is sorely lacking in Singapore since we work like slaves anyway).
Besides, Europeans love salad and sandwiches in general. Preparation isn't difficult. I have done that before, gone into their way of life. Quite healthy I would say
coming back to your idea of a restaurant in europe where you need to spend 20 euros, can I ask where were you when you ate in the restaurant?
Coz the restaurant I had in Germany cost me no more than 10 euros most of the time, and the portions are huge.
Try their pasta at 5 to 7 euros, its easily 2 x the portion we have here.
Oh and by the way, red wine costs as cheap as < 2 euros to 4 euros in supermarkets, and c.ocktails cost only 0.99 euro for 1 litre. And red wine is good for health.[/b]
Fast food is made for easy cooking, not for easy eating. you cook salad? boil the pasta and add Prego souce in bottle ready made, the little junior chefs in hotels serving international breakfast can serve may be a hundred ommelettes, fried eggs, sunyside up, in just over 3 hours. These are fast food western style, and it is one dish for all, add a bowl of Cambell soup if you like.
But to the european, fast food is not their culture, it is american. To them a proper meal would include, starter, appetizer, main dish, and dessert. If you get invited to their home, no housewife would serve you anything similar to any fast food you buy outside. If your parents were to prepare dinner for all your siblings together, it will always be rice or noodle, with fish, vegie, chicken pork,... no? You can have just noodle with a few pieces of vegie, and slices of pork, or 20 dumplings as a full meal, you can also enjoy a full 9 course dinner first before you are served rice, noodle or dumplings, in case you are not full.
A good european meal, like the French cuisine, would take at least 3 hours. That is their culture, class, and pride. They, especially the French, don't like their culture to be confused with foreigner, especially the american, because too many people take the american culture as french, like "french fry", or french toast", these have absolutely nothing to do with the French. You can choose a simple life, or you can also enjoy better thing in life, better food. It is not the portion that counts, it is the quality, that is what the French would tell you.
In Singapore, we have a lot more choice, at much more affordable prices, than many other countries, definitely in major cities in europe. Of course there are other exception like in Prague. -
both my ex-companies, local private companies, have more than 21 days, and off-in-lieu.Originally posted by eagle:So to claim a maximum of only 18 days of leave for Singapore is rather unfair.
soul_rage, think u can't compare the worklife just based on these information. -
What I am trying to ask is whether it is meaningful to compare pays if you do not also compare the cost of living. It was a major point of comparison in your post and I feel that you should have pursued it to flesh out your contentions. I have never been to a country in Europe or North America where I found that the higher pay was enough to offset the higher prices as compared to Singapore.Originally posted by soul_rage:I am just showing worklife. Basically, bringing too many things into the picture only makes it too complicated. You can choose to live on the streets or to take a loan and buy a house. Its a person's choice.
I am just putting up work-related information, its up to you guys to discuss whatever you want to discuss. -
point agreed. Its tough to bring everything into the picture, but if you follow the information being posted up here, there are some more info on food, housing, transport, etc.Originally posted by sngyze:What I am trying to ask is whether it is meaningful to compare pays if you do not also compare the cost of living. It was a major point of comparison in your post and I feel that you should have pursued it to flesh out your contentions. I have never been to a country in Europe or North America where I found that the higher pay was enough to offset the higher prices as compared to Singapore.
Maybe I can put an info on recent Germany trip summarized here:
1) Housing (Normal landed property): EURO > $100+k
2) Cars (Mercedes, Audi, etc): EURO > $20+k, Sports car > $30+k
3) Train transport: 1 year 50% discounted ticket to travel unlimited (Eagle, correct me if I am wrong)
4) Wine (Standard bottle): EURO $2 - $4
5) Cocktails (1 litre pack): EURO < $1 to < $2
6) Fruit Juices (1 litre pack): EURO < $1 to < $2
7) Sandwiches, Bread: EURO $2 to $4
Restaurant main course: EURO < $8
9) Clothing: EURO < $10+ to $50+ for mid-range
10) Snacks: EURO < $ 1 to < $2 for potato chips, biscuits, etc, $2.90 for strawberries -
well, I will have to agree but is 21 days the norm or its getting rarer?Originally posted by airgrinder:both my ex-companies, local private companies, have more than 21 days, and off-in-lieu.
soul_rage, think u can't compare the worklife just based on these information.
how's ur current company? -
from what i see at least for not-senior/new staff, gettign 18 days is already on the high side though.Originally posted by airgrinder:both my ex-companies, local private companies, have more than 21 days, and off-in-lieu.
soul_rage, think u can't compare the worklife just based on these information.
not sure about senior management or positions, but since we are talking about normal/middle income pple....... -
Addition: They have Factory Outlets (which are very chic shopping buildings) there, and HUGO BOSS shirts costs $30+ to $50+ for working shirts, < $100 for handbags, shoes etc.Originally posted by soul_rage:point agreed. Its tough to bring everything into the picture, but if you follow the information being posted up here, there are some more info on food, housing, transport, etc.
Maybe I can put an info on recent Germany trip summarized here:
1) Housing (Normal landed property): EURO > $100+k
2) Cars (Mercedes, Audi, etc): EURO > $20+k, Sports car > $30+k
3) Train transport: 1 year 50% discounted ticket to travel unlimited (Eagle, correct me if I am wrong)
4) Wine (Standard bottle): EURO $2 - $4
5) Cocktails (1 litre pack): EURO < $1 to < $2
6) Fruit Juices (1 litre pack): EURO < $1 to < $2
7) Sandwiches, Bread: EURO $2 to $4
8 ) Restaurant main course: EURO < $8
9) Clothing: EURO < $10+ to $50+ for mid-range
10) Snacks: EURO < $ 1 to < $2 for potato chips, biscuits, etc, $2.90 for strawberries -
[quote]Originally posted by Atobe:
[b]Is it not ironical that Singaporeans need to be encouraged to work till pass 70 years of age, while other First World Countries are assisting their Citizens with programs to retire at 50 ?
[quote]
Once again the myopic Atobe is trying to pull wool over our eyes. All of Europe is facing the pension crisis on account of an aging population and every government is trying to raise the retirement age. People like Atobe would rather drive Singapore from the first world to the third with his idiotic, ill-conceived ideas.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6937301.stm -
Just some facts:Originally posted by soul_rage:point agreed. Its tough to bring everything into the picture, but if you follow the information being posted up here, there are some more info on food, housing, transport, etc.
Maybe I can put an info on recent Germany trip summarized here:
1) Housing (Normal landed property): EURO > $100+k
2) Cars (Mercedes, Audi, etc): EURO > $20+k, Sports car > $30+k
3) Train transport: 1 year 50% discounted ticket to travel unlimited (Eagle, correct me if I am wrong)
4) Wine (Standard bottle): EURO $2 - $4
5) Cocktails (1 litre pack): EURO < $1 to < $2
6) Fruit Juices (1 litre pack): EURO < $1 to < $2
7) Sandwiches, Bread: EURO $2 to $4 Restaurant main course: EURO < $8
9) Clothing: EURO < $10+ to $50+ for mid-range
10) Snacks: EURO < $ 1 to < $2 for potato chips, biscuits, etc, $2.90 for strawberries
Food wise, it depends on the country of production, the number of competitors, and the culture. You can't compare it like this.
Housing wise, Germany has so much free land that they cannot finish yet. Thus, landed property is cheaper.
Cars wise, most of the cars you mentioned are produced there! I would think that Japanese cars are rather more expensive in comparison over there. However, although cars may be cheaper, petrol is definitely more expensive. I forgot to take a photo of a petrol kiosk in Germany (feeling wasted), but I took one from Paris. The price for 98% (dunno for what) petrol is 1.55 euros per litre (price from june). Parking fees in the city areas of Germany is also extremely expensive as compared to here.
Train transport, I think is 200 euros for a 1 year Bahncard 50. Ya, I think it's for unlimited rides for that year. You can also get monthly passes for travel between cities (subjected to 50% discount if you hv the card). For Darmstadt to Frankfurt, the monthly ticket was > 140 euros (think around there). Even with the 50% discount, it is still more expensive than here. Of course, the distance travelled is much further, but that is the problem with big countries; you travel more.
Strawberries wise, Germany produces them, thus we can accept it to be cheaper. It is just like bananas or Yeo's Soya milk are more expensive over there in Germany compared to Singapore.
Lastly, just want to mention that a short 15-20 mins taxi trip costs about more than 40 euros. In Singapore, it doesn't even cost more than 20 sgd. The difference is extreme even when we do not take into account whether it is in euros or in sgd. -
well its understandable with their pension system and ageing population , even japan is having issues with that (but lets not forget their population SIZE compared to the size in singapore), lets not compare that wif singapore, BECUZ IN SINGAPORE, YOU DUN HAVE THAT PENSION SYSTEM ..YOUR CPF IS NOT A PENSION NOR IS YOUR MEDISAVE...Originally posted by oxford mushroom:[quote]Originally posted by Atobe:
[b]Is it not ironical that Singaporeans need to be encouraged to work till pass 70 years of age, while other First World Countries are assisting their Citizens with programs to retire at 50 ?
[quote]
Once again the myopic Atobe is trying to pull wool over our eyes. All of Europe is facing the pension crisis on account of an aging population and every government is trying to raise the retirement age. People like Atobe would rather drive Singapore from the first world to the third with his idiotic, ill-conceived ideas.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6937301.stm -
Oh, in europe, taxis are more expensive because the fact is that many people drive cars. Therefore, taxis are less utilized, and this results in a higher profit per trip.Originally posted by eagle:Just some facts:
Food wise, it depends on the country of production, the number of competitors, and the culture. You can't compare it like this.
Housing wise, Germany has so much free land that they cannot finish yet. Thus, landed property is cheaper.
Cars wise, most of the cars you mentioned are produced there! I would think that Japanese cars are rather more expensive in comparison over there. However, although cars may be cheaper, petrol is definitely more expensive. I forgot to take a photo of a petrol kiosk in Germany (feeling wasted), but I took one from Paris. The price for 98% (dunno for what) petrol is 1.55 euros per litre (price from june). Parking fees in the city areas of Germany is also extremely expensive as compared to here.
Train transport, I think is 200 euros for a 1 year Bahncard 50. Ya, I think it's for unlimited rides for that year. You can also get monthly passes for travel between cities (subjected to 50% discount if you hv the card). For Darmstadt to Frankfurt, the monthly ticket was > 140 euros (think around there). Even with the 50% discount, it is still more expensive than here. Of course, the distance travelled is much further, but that is the problem with big countries; you travel more.
Strawberries wise, Germany produces them, thus we can accept it to be cheaper. It is just like bananas or Yeo's Soya milk are more expensive over there in Germany compared to Singapore.
Lastly, just want to mention that a short 15-20 mins taxi trip costs about more than 40 euros. In Singapore, it doesn't even cost more than 20 sgd. The difference is extreme even when we do not take into account whether it is in euros or in sgd.
Coming back to petrol. 1.55 euros is ok what, here in Singapore, the price is 1.8+ or 1.9+. I heard it also hit $2 before. But yes, they probably travel further distances, so it will cost them more as they utilize more petrol.
Housing-wise, whether Germany has more land or not is secondary. The fact remains about the price.
In Singapore, HDB flat prices are artificially inflated by the HDB. Per unit cost can never be more than 50k I believe, but yet, they are charging at 100k+ to 300k+ or 400k+, depending on the size of the unit.