Let's compare the worklife of Japan, Europe, and Singapore
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I forgot to add this point above.Originally posted by soul_rage:Oh, in europe, taxis are more expensive because the fact is that many people drive cars. Therefore, taxis are less utilized, and this results in a higher profit per trip.
Coming back to petrol. 1.55 euros is ok what, here in Singapore, the price is 1.8+ or 1.9+. I heard it also hit $2 before. But yes, they probably travel further distances, so it will cost them more as they utilize more petrol.
Housing-wise, whether Germany has more land or not is secondary. The fact remains about the price.
In Singapore, HDB flat prices are artificially inflated by the HDB. Per unit cost can never be more than 50k I believe, but yet, they are charging at 100k+ to 300k+ or 400k+, depending on the size of the unit.
If I were to compare housing prices, I would compare Singapore to that of Hong Kong's, not Germany's. The supply of land is still a matter.
Petrol... hmmm... agree with your point...
But Parkplatz is still extremely expensive (damn, I should have gone and take a photo when I was there).
Actually I would think taxis are not utilised as much because their public transport system is much more extensive and more timely than in Singapore -
Actually I believe taxis may be utilized more by tourists, and therefore I agree with their idea that taxi costs should be more expensive (to tax the tourists).Originally posted by eagle:I forgot to add this point above.
If I were to compare housing prices, I would compare Singapore to that of Hong Kong's, not Germany's. The supply of land is still a matter.
Petrol... hmmm... agree with your point...
But Parkplatz is still extremely expensive (damn, I should have gone and take a photo when I was there).
Actually I would think taxis are not utilised as much because their public transport system is much more extensive and more timely than in Singapore
Ya, I know what you mean about Singapore and Hong Kong, but when one determines whether another place is a better or worse place, we should consider everything regardless right?
Its just like, in Singapore, its cheaper in terms of fuel costs because our country is much smaller and therefore it costs less to travel around, but you cannot say let's not compare this because of that difference, correct?
Its an advantage that Germany has over Singapore (more land) that housing is cheaper, but its also the same factor that is also a disadvantage that results in transport costs being more expensive. -
----> agreedOriginally posted by soul_rage:point agreed. Its tough to bring everything into the picture, but if you follow the information being posted up here, there are some more info on food, housing, transport, etc.
Maybe I can put an info on recent Germany trip summarized here:
1) Housing (Normal landed property): EURO > $100+k ----> depend on location, my colleague paid 380k euro for his hse.
2) Cars (Mercedes, Audi, etc): EURO > $20+k, Sports car > $30+k----> agreed, but u hv to pay 1% tax of the value every yrs
3) Train transport: 1 year 50% discounted ticket to travel unlimited (Eagle, correct me if I am wrong)----> agreed
4) Wine (Standard bottle): EURO $2 - $4 -----> agreed
5) Cocktails (1 litre pack): EURO < $1 to < $2-----> agreed
6) Fruit Juices (1 litre pack): EURO < $1 to < $2----> agreed
7) Sandwiches, Bread: EURO $2 to $4-----> agreed
Restaurant main course: EURO < $8-----> agreed
9) Clothing: EURO < $10+ to $50+ for mid-range----> agreed
10) Snacks: EURO < $ 1 to < $2 for potato chips, biscuits, etc, $2.90 for strawberries
but....dont forget!!! 1 euro = S$1.99
so if u making 2 to 3k euro in Germany, is still as gd as making 2 to 3k in sg. -
1% tax of value of car is nothing compared to our taxes imposed on the cars here.Originally posted by baby hunter:----> agreed
quote:Originally posted by soul_rage:
point agreed. Its tough to bring everything into the picture, but if you follow the information being posted up here, there are some more info on food, housing, transport, etc.
Maybe I can put an info on recent Germany trip summarized here:
1) Housing (Normal landed property): EURO > $100+k ----> depend on location, my colleague paid 380k euro for his hse.
2) Cars (Mercedes, Audi, etc): EURO > $20+k, Sports car > $30+k----> agreed, but u hv to pay 1% tax of the value every yrs
3) Train transport: 1 year 50% discounted ticket to travel unlimited (Eagle, correct me if I am wrong)----> agreed
4) Wine (Standard bottle): EURO $2 - $4 -----> agreed
5) #$%@tails (1 litre pack): EURO < $1 to < $2-----> agreed
6) Fruit Juices (1 litre pack): EURO < $1 to < $2----> agreed
7) Sandwiches, Bread: EURO $2 to $4-----> agreed
Cool Restaurant main course: EURO < $8-----> agreed
9) Clothing: EURO < $10+ to $50+ for mid-range----> agreed
10) Snacks: EURO < $ 1 to < $2 for potato chips, biscuits, etc, $2.90 for strawberries
----> agreed
but....dont forget!!! 1 euro = S$1.99
so if u making 2 to 3k euro in Germany, is still as gd as making 2 to 3k in sg.
and 380k euros for a Singapore bungalow-equivalent I believe is a reasonable price.
So before anyone jumps to the conclusion that cost of living is higher in the West than here, please note the details of the comparison above, which is from real-life experiences in Germany.
I can say from my experience that they are not more expensive than us, given the overall costs of daily necessities, transport, and housing.
anyone knows about their health-care? That's another BIG factor in cost of living. (and I suspect ours is MUCH more expensive) -
I would still think that price of housing is due to supply and demand of land.
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So we are not just discussing about working life here but also comparing the standard of living and the quality of life as citizens right? I dont know much about Europe but here are a few pros/cons about Japan that you cant find in Singapore
1) When you drop or lose something etc,your expensive sunglasses or wallet there is a good chance you would somehow get it back
2)The government is obligated to help the handicapped with $$$ as soon as they reach adulthood at age 20 until death
3)Many CB mouths and heated conversation in public but to get into a fist fight would mean that the person is a low life and so you dont see much violence in the street (except when police get beaten up by thugs)
4)service industry is excellent and customers always right
5)Nationalistic but not necessasy patriotic
6)all non Japanese are outsiders.Offically called Aliens in their IC cards
7)You can afford to buy and drive a 10 year old Porche for only S$30,000 Most people just obey the government and follow whatever policies snd the people seems happy .children dont even know who the prime minister is
9)Peole here would take pains in helping a stranger with directions or any instruction (but in Japanese only)
10)Corrupted offcials get slap in the hand with no harsh punishment.
11)About S$4 for a pack of Malboro and S$10 for a pint of beer
These are just some I can think of at the moment -
No choice, I was talking about worklife, but all the rest are interested in cost of living and standards of living. So I guess have to put in the information for a better appreciation of actual realities outside of this small island.Originally posted by Short Ninja:So we are not just discussing about working life here but also comparing the standard of living and the quality of life as citizens right? I dont know much about Europe but here are a few pros/cons about Japan that you cant find in Singapore
1) When you drop or lose something etc,your expensive sunglasses or wallet there is a good chance you would somehow get it back
2)The government is obligated to help the handicapped with $$$ as soon as they reach adulthood at age 20 until death
3)Many CB mouths and heated conversation in public but to get into a fist fight would mean that the person is a low life and so you dont see much violence in the street (except when police get beaten up by thugs)
4)service industry is excellent and customers always right
5)Nationalistic but not necessasy patriotic
6)all non Japanese are outsiders.Offically called Aliens in their IC cards
7)You can afford to buy and drive a 10 year old Porche for only S$30,000 Most people just obey the government and follow whatever policies snd the people seems happy .children dont even know who the prime minister is
9)Peole here would take pains in helping a stranger with directions or any instruction (but in Japanese only)
10)Corrupted offcials get slap in the hand with no harsh punishment.
11)About S$4 for a pack of Malboro and S$10 for a pint of beer
These are just some I can think of at the moment
This small island by the way, also has a small newspaper company that only reports the good things about this small island. -
not reallyOriginally posted by eagle:I would still think that price of housing is due to supply and demand of land.
The pricing of HDB housing, is kept at an artificially high price.
It was not meant to be a profiteering kind of policy. HDB is still part of the govt, and thus it should not be used as an arm for profiteering from its citizens.
In Hong Kong, there are really govt-subsidized units, but of course they are really small and really meant for the poor. But these are REAL subsidies.
HDB is a 'market' subsidy (meaning its NOT a real subsidy at all)
Private properties is another matter. Private companies have to bid for the land, and due to actual land prices (in which govt profits from them), the costs of such housing is definitely due to the supply and demand of land. -
yes, europeans' income tax ranges from 39% to 59% which is kinda gay cuz most of them are welfare statesOriginally posted by Short Ninja:Is that for Europeans? -
why are these all so cheap? THEY ARE PRODUCED IN THE EU. It's the same thing as oil being cheaper in OPEC countries, these agricultural foodstuff are of cuz cheaper in their producing countries!Originally posted by soul_rage:point agreed. Its tough to bring everything into the picture, but if you follow the information being posted up here, there are some more info on food, housing, transport, etc.
Maybe I can put an info on recent Germany trip summarized here:
1) Housing (Normal landed property): EURO > $100+k
2) Cars (Mercedes, Audi, etc): EURO > $20+k, Sports car > $30+k
3) Train transport: 1 year 50% discounted ticket to travel unlimited (Eagle, correct me if I am wrong)
4) Wine (Standard bottle): EURO $2 - $4
5) Cocktails (1 litre pack): EURO < $1 to < $2
6) Fruit Juices (1 litre pack): EURO < $1 to < $2
7) Sandwiches, Bread: EURO $2 to $4 Restaurant main course: EURO < $8
9) Clothing: EURO < $10+ to $50+ for mid-range
10) Snacks: EURO < $ 1 to < $2 for potato chips, biscuits, etc, $2.90 for strawberries -
2 years ago, i went for a damn long holiday in Europe(paris and london) and the USA(roswell,GA(suburb),atlanta,GA, Orlando,FL)
what i gathered from my parents were, though we spent considerable more time in the US(4 wks US to 2 wks in EU), the money that we spent was conparable. In the US, you can get a damned big meal for 13-15 USD(Excluding tips). In the EU, don't even think about it. Macs was 7 Euros, when in the US it was 7 USD, singapore SGD6.95 or whatever.
oil in the us, needless to say, was much cheaper in the USA.
Hotels: we stayed in holiday inn , double suite for 200-300USD a night i think
in paris, we stayed in holiday inn 2 stars 85 Euro a night. and the damned paris room is extremely small. so small, that 2 people had to sleep on the floor.
k. anyway. worklife in the EU is of cuz, much more slack. 35 hr weeks?????!!!!WTF?????
and i heard from my dad, in northern Europe, since income tax is 59%, people work till the cap where there is no/low income tax, then just stop working. so they have 20+ to 30+ work weeks. -
but its impt to know that after tax, their middle income is still EURO 2k to 3k+, which is not far off from our middle income group in Singapore, which is SGD1.5k to 4k.Originally posted by unclebutcher:yes, europeans' income tax ranges from 39% to 59% which is kinda gay cuz most of them are welfare states
My research supervisor, who is not a professor but just a masters, and coming from Sweden, had about EURO 3k+ after taxes.
On top of that, they are welfare states -
I was in SIngapore last month and this was my observation
!) When the radio said 'Traffic Jam' it means you get to your destination 10 minutes later.(Good)
2) Taxis like to act blurr take me on a longer ride expect to keep the change when they take my money and say 'thank you' at the same time.(no difference to me)
3)Food prices went up very little but the food I get on my plate was a lot lesser and so have to order more (LPPL)
4)New Paper is still crap paper unless you are an EPL fanatic or you like to check out the massage and health centers.
5)China town looks ugly cuz it doesnt look old or new.The streets of Little India is very authentic....dirty!!!
6)Less people play 4-D or is it more 4-D outlets that I dont see many people
7)Price of moon cake is indeed astonomical compared to JB (a place where people are said to be robbed in broad daylight)Shopping and eating still national past time but girls looking slimmer
9)Best National day parade ever but hard to explain why some houses did hang their flags upside down.
10) Going to Jurong Bird Park is expensive and not worth the trip,the place of attraction for me there was the penguins...cuz I was attracted to the air condition room too. -
haha, your observations are pretty accurateOriginally posted by Short Ninja:I was in SIngapore last month and this was my observation
!) When the radio said 'Traffic Jam' it means you get to your destination 10 minutes later.(Good)
2) Taxis like to act blurr take me on a longer ride expect to keep the change when they take my money and say 'thank you' at the same time.(no difference to me)
3)Food prices went up very little but the food I get on my plate was a lot lesser and so have to order more (LPPL)
4)New Paper is still crap paper unless you are an EPL fanatic or you like to check out the massage and health centers.
5)China town looks ugly cuz it doesnt look old or new.The streets of Little India is very authentic....dirty!!!
6)Less people play 4-D or is it more 4-D outlets that I dont see many people
7)Price of moon cake is indeed astonomical compared to JB (a place where people are said to be robbed in broad daylight)Shopping and eating still national past time but girls looking slimmer
9)Best National day parade ever but hard to explain why some houses did hang their flags upside down.
10) Going to Jurong Bird Park is expensive and not worth the trip,the place of attraction for me there was the penguins...cuz I was attracted to the air condition room too.
The only thing this place can boast of is being safe. But safe comes with a price, and the price to pay may not be exactly worth it.
That said, this system has made us all more risk-adverse, and many don't dare to take the leap to new places and new countries, despite the complaints and anger.
And until the day I finally muster the courage to take the leap, I am also the same. NATO (No action talk only).
the only thing I am glad I did was to jump from Singapore firm to US firm, and I have not looked back (not regretted) since. -
Many people get their break in one lifetime as its only a matter of when to pass and when to score.I meet many Singaporean Americans or should I call them American Singaporeans on my flight back,dont think it is a bad choice either cuz if things go wrong you could always come back as a 'foreign talent' and dont worry they cant make you serve NS twice......now how does that sound to you?Originally posted by soul_rage:haha, your observations are pretty accurate
The only thing this place can boast of is being safe. But safe comes with a price, and the price to pay may not be exactly worth it.
That said, this system has made us all more risk-adverse, and many don't dare to take the leap to new places and new countries, despite the complaints and anger.
And until the day I finally muster the courage to take the leap, I am also the same. NATO (No action talk only).
the only thing I am glad I did was to jump from Singapore firm to US firm, and I have not looked back (not regretted) since. -
Well, I think I am now at a US company and in a good position to target working overseas. Have been to Germany for a stint, next in Shanghai, then I hope to go to US for a few years.Originally posted by Short Ninja:Many people get their break in one lifetime as its only a matter of when to pass and when to score.I meet many Singaporean Americans or should I call them American Singaporeans on my flight back,dont think it is a bad choice either cuz if things go wrong you could always come back as a 'foreign talent' and dont worry they cant make you serve NS twice......now how does that sound to you?
Anyway, you are right, its not a bad choice -
the US is a much better choice of destination to settle down, imoOriginally posted by soul_rage:Well, I think I am now at a US company and in a good position to target working overseas. Have been to Germany for a stint, next in Shanghai, then I hope to go to US for a few years.
Anyway, you are right, its not a bad choice -
what company u at ah? If don't want say here can pm me de. But if not engineering firm then nvm.Originally posted by soul_rage:Well, I think I am now at a US company and in a good position to target working overseas. Have been to Germany for a stint, next in Shanghai, then I hope to go to US for a few years.
Anyway, you are right, its not a bad choice -
Is this the best that a PhD qualified person can throw up in a supposedly critical piece ?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:[Quote]Originally posted by Atobe:
Is it not ironical that Singaporeans need to be encouraged to work till pass 70 years of age, while other First World Countries are assisting their Citizens with programs to retire at 50 ?
[Quote]
Once again the myopic Atobe is trying to pull wool over our eyes. All of Europe is facing the pension crisis on account of an aging population and every government is trying to raise the retirement age. People like Atobe would rather drive Singapore from the first world to the third with his idiotic, ill-conceived ideas.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6937301.stm
For one who is arrogantly self-opinionated, you have again displayed your characteristic and purposeful blindness to decent honesty with your usual condescending remarks.
Can we expect anything more positively substantial or constructive from one who is obviously a 'carpet beggar' to the MIW ?
If a less qualified person remarks is seen as idiotic, how should one see the self-opinionated remarks of a PhD - when the callous remarks are no more then a characteristic ''Pig-headed Donkey'' fitted with blinkers and stupidly move towards the carrot hung ahead of its eyes ?
Do you even know the difference between the Pension Scheme that is practised in UK and Europe that has created their present problems, compared to the Provident Fund Scheme preferred by the Singapore Government ?
The problems faced by the Governments in Europe and UK that operate Pension Funds are a result of their non-interference in the manner that the respective Pension Funds are managed and invested for the stake-holders.
Is it not obvious that these Pension Funds are exposed to the high risks of public and private investments, which have been subjected to global financial turmoils influenced by political and economic events ?
Under such circumstances, will it not be the same motivating factors for some of these Governments to urge their aged citizens to continue working - especially when their budget is tight due to a shrinking population in some European countries ?
Yet, the same scenario is not uniform throughout Europe as you have preferred to make a generalised sweeping statement without any critical differentiation.
The following European Countries such as Portugal, Spain, Switzerland, Benelux countries, Holland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland are not facing the same Pension crisis as in Germany, France and UK - and even in each of these three countries, the pension problems are based on different primary and secondary factors.
Again, do you know enough about the differences between the Pension Fund schemes preferred and practised by the Europeans to pass your self-opinionated snide remarks ?
For your education and the information of other participants here, try reading the following articles from parties that are outside of Europe and Singapore - which surely will be more neutral in their preferred position :
1. Fundamental Investments - the difference between Pension and Provident Fund Schemes
2. Personal Finace - Pros and Cons of defined providents
Generally, Pension Funds are placed with approved private investment managers, that will provide higher rates of return, but at the same time will exposed the participants to higher risks that can shrink the Fund in the event of mismanagement or political and-or economic risk factors.
Provident Funds are subjected to less risks, which earn far less returns on this long term saving plan for final disbursement at time of retirement.
In essence, a Pension Fund is almost similar to an 'Annuity Scheme' - in which a retiree is looked after for till his last breath through a 'Fixed Annuity'.
While a Provident Fund is supposed to pay out a lump-sum to the stake-holder on his retirement - based on the type of Provident Fund that is set up.
What will our Singapore CPF model morphed into after 40 odd years ?
It started fine as a Provident Fund - with many who retired up to the mid-1980s receiving a whole lump sum of their CPF; while those who retired during the mid-1990s had received partial portion of their CPF in a lump sum - with the remaining amount paid out by instalment, and some parts being deducted for all kinds of medical and hospitalisation insurance plans.
As we approach the end of 2007, plans are currently developed to prevent any lump sum from being paid, and with more amount being held back for later payment by instalments in some Annuity Scheme to be developed with Cash Inputs from our Provident Fund.
Unlike other Pension Scheme, and Annuity Plans, it is now proposed that Singaporeans shall pay for our own pension through an Annuity Scheme.
If we will critically look at the original CPF format, it is more like a Provident Fund similar to a ''Pay-as-you-go'' - where the outgoings to pay pensions to ''today's pensioners'' are paid for by the contributions of ''today's workers and employers''.
The CPF system was ''based on a philosphy of 'intergenerational solidarity' - where today's workers support older workers''.
The CPF is a '' national pension scheme and is essentially an 'unfunded pension scheme' - it accepts responsibility to provide retirement benefits to stakeholders, but do not set aside moneys today to meet future obligations''.
The Singapore Government do not 'pump' any funds into the CPF despite making profits from the utilisation of the cheap CPF money, and only return a miserable 2% interest to our CPF account for the better part of one's working life contributing into the CPF.
Is this not similar to the infamous ''Pyramid Scheme'' except that there are no products involved, and with more legitimacy as it is annointed by the Government ?
To be successful, a ''Pyramid Scheme'' require a large base to support the narrow apex.
Similarly, the CPF scheme based on its original plans require a continuous and ever growing number of stake holders to support the few retiring at the top, who will withdraw a larger accumulated lump sum paid out with a compounded interest of 2% per year.
With a declining population being a known factor since the mid-1980s, changes were already afoot with the Howe Yoon Chong Committee coming out to amend the CPF pay-out rules, and this tinkering with the CPF Pay-out has continued over the last 20 years till this day.
If only a mushroom with a big head has more substance beneath the skin.
Unfortunately, as we all know that when a mushrom is cut open - there is nothing different from its external texture to its core.
It is one vegetative material.