More protest marches break out in Burma
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I hope that the CIA is not involved in the current events in Myanmar.
See "The revolution will not be televised", a film about the 2002 coup against Hugo Chavez which was backed by the CIA:
The revolution will not be televised
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144
See also:
http://www.doublestandards.org/ciahits.html
http://www.mltoday.com/Pages/Imperialism/Blum-USWars.html
http://www.doublestandards.org/usmurder.html
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4068.htm -
As far as this incident is concerned, the junta is not sadistic. Neither are the soldiers or police who obeyed the orders to fire. Heck lah, I'm not sure they followed ROE or not.Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:Sadistic? I think desperate is the word to use. Sadistic should be used on the military junta, not the innocent people. Get your terms right.
If you say the people are desperate, I can argue so is the junta. Driven to a corner with no way out, anyone will be desperate. You think the soldiers are not human beings?
The so-called innocent people are the real sadists. Read this:Archbishop of Yangon tear-gassed (Extra)
The junta don't want escalation of violence. Neither do they take pride in fragging people, the more the merrier. The police or soliders who are enforcing order now won't want escalation of violence either.
By DPA
Sep 27, 2007, 13:33 GMT
Yangon - The Catholic archbishop of Yangon was tear-gassed Thursday as Myanmar troops dispersed a mob of people outraged at the regime's mistreatment of Buddhist monks.
Archbishop Charles Bo, his eyes streaming, was forced to flee from Sule Pagoda in downtown Yangon when troops guarding the access road to the temple fired tear gas on the crowds in an attempt to disperse them.
'I fear a bloodbath,' Bo told Deustche Presse-Agentur dpa at his nearby home.
'But the people welcome an escalation of the violence so the situation will turn into something similar to East Timor, when the United Nations had to intervene,' the archbishop said.
So tell me, who is welcoming violence now?
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I did not say their government are doing things correctly or they are a good government. However let's not be too quick to judge them.Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:Indeed I would wish to continue playing this game. I would love to dwell deeper into what you are actually thinking.
Firstly, you mentioned that it is fundamental human nature to defend what is theirs, but does it make it right fundamentally itself? Do I have the right to kill another just because they encroach upon my property? What you are saying is that use of extreme violence is acceptable. So are you saying cases of domestic violence should be accepted since men are fundamentally more violent and brutal since the stoneage times? This is the primal instinct within us am I not wrong?
Is it human nature to kill without qualms? I hope thousands of years of civilisation has not taught us that human lives are to be taken lightly.
You have a warped sense of justice, seeking address for the perpetrators of injustice. Do you know about the acts of abuses against human rights within the country itself? Should you be actually residing amongst such horrors, amidst such repression, it is not right to want to right things?
That said, I hope the protest was not started because of impulsiveness. I read the news, it seems that the majority of the protestors are monks and students, not the peasants who should be most affected by the fuel prices. Hmm .. -
and you think Junta are not wrong in the first place?? Junta doesn;t want an escalation of violence becuz it had already attracted the attention of the world and any adverse action they take not only harms them but the Asean region as a whole.Originally posted by Icemoon:The junta don't want escalation of violence. Neither do they take pride in fragging people, the more the merrier. The police or soliders who are enforcing order now won't want escalation of violence either.
So tell me, who is welcoming violence now?
Dun you even realise why is there a rebellion in the first place?? have you really being following what went wrong in Burma all along? if peace was what they intended or the prosperity..they never would have put Ms Suu under house arrest, and did you actually think the Junta would even think about killing Ms Suu? no they will not do that becuz that would be taking a really big risk.. a risk that might even have them expelled from the Asean Forum and even intervention from the UN or US... -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
I did not say their government are doing things correctly or they are a good government. However let's not be too quick to judge them.
you really must be living on the moon.. -
Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:
Soldiers are never traitors if they obey the constitution and the president? Wahah .. sorry this is our vow in Singapore, not sure for them.
Good example. Only that you have used it in the wrong context. Could you not view the traitors as the soldiers, killing the [b]hopes and dreams of millions of men, women and children in Myanmar? Who is the traitor now in this context?[/b]
Furthermore, I think they have not reached Nuremberg .. yet? Where obeying orders and all the military-correct talk are no excuse for their crimes.
I'm not sure if it is still a peaceful protest now. You know, at the ground, even with no weapons, some of your actions might be construed as having the intent to harm the soldiers.
At least in Tiananmen, they still restrict themselves at Tiananmen. Now, monks and students are marching all around the city. -
In that case, perhaps there is still hope in working with the junta? The US has started freezing their assets to "wake up their bloody idea"?Originally posted by 4getmenot:and you think Junta are not wrong in the first place?? Junta doesn;t want an escalation of violence becuz it had already attracted the attention of the world and any adverse action they take not only harms them but the Asean region as a whole.
Dun you even realise why is there a rebellion in the first place?? have you really being following what went wrong in Burma all along? if peace was what they intended or the prosperity..they never would have put Ms Suu under house arrest, and did you actually think the Junta would even think about killing Ms Suu? no they will not do that becuz that would be taking a really big risk.. a risk that might even have them expelled from the Asean Forum and even intervention from the UN or US...
House arrest only mah. Our own government also used that.
If you compare with what happened in Russia, Iraq or Cambodia where purging is common, who is worse? -
-.- who start all this shIt? the people? so u mean its ok to live in poverty. of cos u say it this way since u r not a citizen of myammar.Originally posted by Icemoon:The junta don't want escalation of violence. Neither do they take pride in fragging people, the more the merrier. The police or soliders who are enforcing order now won't want escalation of violence either.
So tell me, who is welcoming violence now? -
Well, I'm not sure what is the correct thing to do.Originally posted by RaTtY8l:-.- who start all this shIt? the people? so u mean its ok to live in poverty. of cos u say it this way since u r not a citizen of myammar.
Is it worse to live in poverty or .. start protesting but end up dead?
Furthermore, in reality the protest now is nothing but a rebellion. Contrast with Tiananmen where the goal is to help reform the government. -
are you blind or stupid or BOTH?? in the first place, the junta goverment wasn't even suppose to exists after the free elections.. so how can you call it a rebellion if the actual junta gahmen had no right to be there in the first place??Originally posted by Icemoon:Well, I'm not sure what is the correct thing to do.
Is it worse to live in poverty or .. start protesting but end up dead?
Furthermore, in reality the protest now is nothing but a rebellion. Contrast with Tiananmen where the goal is to help reform the government.
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Go for the pragmatic definition lah. Whatever is up there, is the government.Originally posted by 4getmenot:are you blind or stupid or BOTH?? in the first place, the junta goverment wasn't even suppose to exists after the free elections.. so how can you call it a rebellion if the actual junta gahmen had no right to be there in the first place??
After all, it is not like after taking over, they transferred all the treasury money into their bank accounts then close all the ministries right? That one got government as good as no government. -
You don't like rebellion then use uprising lor.Originally posted by 4getmenot:so how can you call it a rebellion if the actual junta gahmen had no right to be there in the first place?? -
What the hell are you talking about?Originally posted by TheGoodEarth:Military regimes rule by force not by legitimacy. Therefore, it is more fearful of internal threats than external threats. Also, no country will mess with another country run by generals who are ever ready to c-o-c-k their rifles.
For Myanmar, the only countries that could reign in the military regime are India, China and Thailand.
Thailand ??? It is also a military regime.
China ??? It is a blind panda.
India ??? Too democratic to bother.
I was on about the impartiality of the military in rogue regimes, not military juntas running governments. -
Are you sure you even know what you're talking about (what's new here?)? What's the whole garb about the western model of human rights and civil liberty got to do here?Originally posted by Arapahoe:sign...too busy to do a long reply but sanction? ....do u want to know how poor they are? sanction at this economic level doesn't have any impact. Pressure from who? PRC? or Asean? western countries sure tourist.
Moral authority by means of western democracy, human right? what make u so sure that is the final evolved? remember they were like us hand down from the Brit. with a very established civil administration.
If you haven't a clue what moral authority can do to increase the respect and pressure an alliance can have on one (potential) member state, just take a look at the EU. In recent years, just consider how many countries from the former Eastern-bloc have actually had their membership application turned away/delayed because of their failure to meet certain provisions/safeguards (anything from susceptible human rights records to streamlining their constitution to meet the requirements of EU membership) that need to be fulfilled for an EU-membership.
Now, try comparing ASEAN (which is nothing more than a loose association of rogue and/or corrupt regimes that are basically inefficient in terms of exerting any sort of an influence on others) to the EU. Is it any wonder why the international community disregards the role of ASEAN at large and instead regard the UN to be a more viable outlet to resolve the crisis? -
Unfortunately, you've got too many drones here possessing the wisdom fed by a press ranked 154th for press freedom who try playing the game on the premise the world views matters through the prism shaped by the despots running this regime. What a simple world we live in it seems...Originally posted by Icemoon:If you want to play the game, then make sure you know what you are playing.
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not at all! the monks could not bear their pple r suffering becos of the government trying to impose more road tax from the pple, making livelihood extremely difficult to live.Originally posted by Icemoon:I just find it weird monks and nuns have to participate in this. Shouldn't they keep themselves out of worldly affairs?
And they are just adding to the list of problems. Imagine if the junta don't want to give in. Since it is still considered a peaceful protest, the junta can just ignore them. But the junta will be distracted. Like one famous person said, if the junta have to think of ways to fix the opposition, when will they have time to improve on the management of the country?
And imagine the unimaginable happens. The junta guns them down. Then the monks are forcing bad karma on the junta. -
I've heard this to death.Originally posted by 798:not at all! the monks could not bear their pple r suffering becos of the government trying to impose more road tax from the pple, making livelihood extremely difficult to live.
I just hope they know what they are doing. From another perspective, they are just landing their country into another turmoil.
Their strategy is simply this - walk around, threaten the government, get shot, get publicised. Hopefully there will be direct intervention to force the junta to step down.
Sounds sadistic to me, i.e. until the death toll rises, their plan will not succeed. Better if a US reporter die ah, so the US will be more dulan with them. -
Constitution?! What constitution?! You think a Junta gives a damn about constitution?! Someone who did not recognise the results of an open election you think they give a damn about constitution?! You are getting more and more absurb Icemoon. Your ignorance and often selfish thoughts are making me look at you in disgust.Originally posted by Icemoon:Soldiers are never traitors if they obey the constitution and the president? Wahah .. sorry this is our vow in Singapore, not sure for them.
Furthermore, I think they have not reached Nuremberg .. yet? Where obeying orders and all the military-correct talk are no excuse for their crimes.
I'm not sure if it is still a peaceful protest now. You know, at the ground, even with no weapons, some of your actions might be construed as having the intent to harm the soldiers.
At least in Tiananmen, they still restrict themselves at Tiananmen. Now, monks and students are marching all around the city.
Do you know what kind of soldiers do they have? Some of these soldiers are orphans, living in insolated camps. These soldiers' families have their living and housing expenses fully paid. These soldiers are mecenaries. Trained to obey and brainwashed to believe.
So did you read my links to what the military has done to the common people? If you have not done so I STRONGLY suggest that you do. Fancy you accusing the people of inciting violence! How much more ignorant can you get Icemoon?! -
Read this again Icemoon and say it to my face that the military are innocent people.Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:Icemoon, perhaps you might find some solace and some joy in these acts by the military junta. Perhaps you will understand the joy and widespread love for the military junta...
http://www.unpo.org/article.php?id=5706
http://www.gfbv.it/3dossier/asia/burma/burma-shan-en.html
These are but some of the articles. It sickens me to read them, and it sickens me to know that someone actually endorses them... due to fundamental human nature. Sick. -
You really have a warped view Icemoon. You can continue living in your self imagined ''non-violent world'' which is in reality upheld by brutality and violence.
You can continue cheering the murderers and jeering the innocent. You have left me speechless and flabbergasted in regards to your skewed logics and often incomprehensible reasonings. -
Probably this is why the world is abundant, pardon the pun, with murderers, dictators and rapistsOriginally posted by bigmouthjoe:You really have a warped view Icemoon. You can continue living in your self imagined ''non-violent world'' which is in reality upheld by brutality and violence.
You can continue cheering the murderers and jeering the innocent. You have left me speechless and dumbfounded in regards to your skewed logics and often incomprehensible reasonings. -
Myanmar's ailing prime minister remains under treatment at a Singapore hospital....
http://kadaung.blogspot.com/
I hope he die of heart attack tonite.
http://mtmblog.blogspot.com/ American pastor who is in Yangon now
http://niknayman.blogspot.com/ -
Singapore as the ASEAN Chairman should do something such as expelling Burma and cut ties with the government. But I think Singapore has a lot of trading with Burma, so it is useless
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But soldiers are criminals according to Military Law if they open fire at unarmed civilians.Originally posted by Icemoon:Soldiers are never traitors if they obey the constitution and the president? Wahah .. sorry this is our vow in Singapore, not sure for them.
Furthermore, I think they have not reached Nuremberg .. yet? Where obeying orders and all the military-correct talk are no excuse for their crimes.
I'm not sure if it is still a peaceful protest now. You know, at the ground, even with no weapons, some of your actions might be construed as having the intent to harm the soldiers.
At least in Tiananmen, they still restrict themselves at Tiananmen. Now, monks and students are marching all around the city.
ROE is that unless you think you are threatened, you cannot open fire at innocent civilians.
Obeying the president or constitution may or may not protect them. -
So said that? The Archbishop.Originally posted by bigmouthjoe:[b]So did you read my links to what the military has done to the common people? If you have not done so I STRONGLY suggest that you do. Fancy you accusing the people of inciting violence! How much more ignorant can you get Icemoon?![/b][/quote]
Then have you read the link LL posted?
[quote]Archbishop of Yangon tear-gassed (Extra)
By DPA
Sep 27, 2007, 13:33 GMT
Yangon - The Catholic archbishop of Yangon was tear-gassed Thursday as Myanmar troops dispersed a mob of people outraged at the regime's mistreatment of Buddhist monks.
Archbishop Charles Bo, his eyes streaming, was forced to flee from Sule Pagoda in downtown Yangon when troops guarding the access road to the temple fired tear gas on the crowds in an attempt to disperse them.
'I fear a bloodbath,' Bo told Deustche Presse-Agentur dpa at his nearby home.
'But the people welcome an escalation of the violence so the situation will turn into something similar to East Timor, when the United Nations had to intervene,' the archbishop said.
Who is the Archbishop? A representative of the people (in a sense).