Someone From Malaysia Told Me....
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Many years ago, I went to the Singapore Story exhibition.Originally posted by Bloop...:Interesting. Not taking any sides here and I genuinely want to know.
Every history book I've read and just about all magazines - asiaweek, newsweek, etc - news websites - china times, australian time even - states that Singapore was, to put it gently, asked to leave.
The only references I can find anywhere to Singapore chosing to leave are blogs and forums. Posters who speculate that "LKY was shrewed" and can't possibly have been kicked out... he must have planned it. Just speculations.
Where can I find posts for reliable (as reliable as can be after so many years have passed anyway) reports supporting the arguement that LKY orchestrated the seperation?
At the gift shop they sold the duplicated copies of historical documents in one large envelope. I bought one.
In it, were Tun Abdul Razak letter to Toh Chin Chye saying Singapore must go. Letters to LKY. And finally the proclamation letter saying Singapore will be independent.
So yeah, from there, can see Singapore was kicked out! -
Thanks. There are an abundance of supporting reports that we were asked to leave Malaysia. However, is there anything out there to give any semblance of credibility to the claim that we "chose" to leave?Originally posted by mhcampboy:Many years ago, I went to the Singapore Story exhibition.
At the gift shop they sold the duplicated copies of historical documents in one large envelope. I bought one.
In it, were Tun Abdul Razak letter to Toh Chin Chye saying Singapore must go. Letters to LKY. And finally the proclamation letter saying Singapore will be independent.
So yeah, from there, can see Singapore was kicked out! -
You have to make up one yourself. That as reliable as you can get.Originally posted by Bloop...:...
.............................Just speculations.
Where can I find posts for reliable (as reliable as can be after so many years have passed anyway) reports supporting the arguement that LKY orchestrated the seperation?
While you're at it, consider that the CIA could have subverted the merger. -
I read through this thread and the supporters of the theory that LKY wanted the speration at the very least, if not took actual steps to see it happen aren't exactly brain-dead.
I've read pretty credible posts from them in other threads. Just wondering where they got this idea from. <-- ok, I mean I know where they got the idea from, but their conviction. It has to come from somewhere?Originally posted by mancha:You have to make up one yourself. That as reliable as you can get.
While you're at it, consider that the CIA could have subverted the merger. -
Interesting questions from you Bloop.....Originally posted by Bloop...:I read through this thread and the supporters of the theory that LKY wanted the speration at the very least, if not took actual steps to see it happen aren't exactly brain-dead.
I've read pretty credible posts from them in other threads. Just wondering where they got this idea from. <-- ok, I mean I know where they got the idea from, but their conviction. It has to come from somewhere?
There can be no concrete evidence whatsoever, do you believe? To say LKY 'orchestrated' the seperation may perhaps be too strong a word. An opportunist, probably?
Even if a foreign historian were to do a write up that "LKY orchestrated the seperation", how far would that go towards debunking official history that has been in place all these years?
Remember Gavin Menzies who wrote 1421 and claimed it was Cheng Ho who discovered America first?
Think of the Arabs who claimed they were the first to sail round the world when it was historically known to be Magellan?
Anyway, if you were to ask any Malaysian, particularly the Malays, they will tell you that LKY made use of Tunku Abdul Rahman to secure independence. Almost everyone that I ask sing the same tune. Product of brainwash? Maybe.....and one can say the same about Singaporeans.
Even LKY's memoirs......they were meant to be a descriptive and pictorial history. However, what's the feel that one gets after reading it? Self glorification? Most likely.
Historians have always penned history books the way it was meant to be written. That will never change for perpetuity.
If you were in LKY's shoes, what would you have done?
A 44 by 32 km land with only less than 2 million people, no natural resources, no armed forces, no organised police force, gansterism rife etc etc.
Compare that with living under the Malays and having the ruling party jealous of your own PAP. Suffering under the Bumiputera policy where race matters more than merit. A dictator mentality at heart LKY would never have tolerated it.
Of the two evils, which one?
After all, Singapore could still count on its port. Foreign Direct Investment to quickly build the country wouldn't be too difficult an idea to moot, right? -
No, LKY did not orchestrate the separation of Singapore from Malaysia, as this was never in his scheme of things.Originally posted by Bloop...:Interesting. Not taking any sides here and I genuinely want to know.
Every history book I've read and just about all magazines - asiaweek, newsweek, etc - news websites - china times, australian time even - states that Singapore was, to put it gently, asked to leave.
The only references I can find anywhere to Singapore chosing to leave are blogs and forums. Posters who speculate that "LKY was shrewed" and can't possibly have been kicked out... he must have planned it. Just speculations.
Where can I find posts for reliable (as reliable as can be after so many years have passed anyway) reports supporting the arguement that LKY orchestrated the seperation?
He had been more then purposeful with his intention for Singapore to be in Malaysia, as in the very unusually worded choices objected by others during the 1962 Merger Referendum that pushed Singapore into Malaysia.
The fact that LKY had to battle Tunku Abdul Rahman and fight so hard for a 'Malaysia for ALL Malaysians' after Singapore was in it, showed that this matter was not clearly resolved BEFORE merger.
This also showed that the cautious voices calling for restraint and less haste - that LKY had arrogantly derided before merger - was proven correct by events that followed after merger.
This 'Malaysia for ALL Malaysians' stand was not unreasonable by all sane minds, but to the Malays they find that such a concept will put themselves further into a disadvantaged position in any competition with the other races for equal social or economic space.
Even the frustrations of Sabah and Sarawak politicians with the Malay Nationalist politicians from West Malaysia, resulted in a call for a joint withdrawal from Malaysia declaration and for a new Union of ''3-S'' states of Singapore, Sarawak and Sabah to be made - with LKY as the PM.
Unfortunately, LKY declined this proposal, as he reasoned that it was not possible for a union of 3-states like this, to be separated by a wide expanse of water that is owned by Indonesia and Malaysia.
LKY's eloquence and convincing logic made him a direct threat to the leadership of TAR and also that of the other Politically ambitious Malay Ultras, as LKY was seen by many ordinary Malaysians as the most capable alternative political personality after TAR - to move Malaysia forward.
According to several books written, TAR was surprised at LKY's eloquence in Spoken Bahasa during LKY's maiden speech at the Federal Parliament in Kuala Lumpur, which even won the admiration from Malay politicians for the simple political clarity and logical sense in the ideas that LKY espoused for a Malaysian Malaysia.
It was written that TAR's leadership and brilliance was threatened, as well as that of the self-interest of a small group of Malay nationalist - who felt that their community will be further marginalised if a Malaysian Malaysia provide equal opportunity to all.
LKY's lack of sensitivity towards this group resulted in open confrontation and vitrolic verbal exchanges in the local presses on both sides of the Causeway, which were no different to this day whenever the press become proxy mouth pieces to the respective sides.
After the racial riots of 1963 - which was found by recent researches to be instigated by Malay Ultras to seize political control from TAR - the Malay Ultras quietly headed by DPM Tun Abdul Razak took over all government powers and side-lined TAR.
Subsequent moves were soon followed to either arrest the entire Singapore Cabinet, or in the event of failure to do so, Singapore was to be evicted out of Malaysia.
The Royal Malay Regiment was mobilised to enter Singapore, but somehow word got to the Singapore State Government, who appealed to UK PM Harold Wilson for military assistance to block such a militant outcome that will surely result in bloodshed.
Parts of these events appear in snippets researched in different books, and the whole picture can be pieced together with some other oblique official statements published.
Almost thirty years later, a retired Harold Wilson was invited to attend Singapore's National Day and a Private UK Citizen was accorded State Recognition and a State Banquet, in which LKY clearly expressed his gratitude that without Harold Wilson's intervention and support at the gravest moment of Singapore's History, Singapore [and the cabinet] would not have existed.
Was LKY referring to Harold Wilson's ''undocumented response'' to the ''documented'' highly sensitive moves to send the Royal Malay Regiment into Singapore, or was LKY referreing to the documented accounts of Harold Wilson's support to delay the pull-out of British Troops and closure of the Naval Bases in Singapore ?
No, LKY did not engineer Singapore's exit from Malaysia, but he certainly did push Singapore into a rushed marriage with Malaysia, hoping to wear a shoe that surely is too big for him at that time.
Now it seems, he is too big for a small shoe that he has worn for too long. -
*nods nods*
-
My God what beautiful words. Where did you learn to write like this?
Originally posted by Atobe:
No, LKY did not orchestrate the separation of Singapore from Malaysia, as this was never in his scheme of things.
He had been more then purposeful with his intention for Singapore to be in Malaysia, as in the very [b]unusually worded choices objected by others during the 1962 Merger Referendum that pushed Singapore into Malaysia.
The fact that LKY had to battle Tunku Abdul Rahman and fight so hard for a 'Malaysia for ALL Malaysians' after Singapore was in it, showed that this matter was not clearly resolved BEFORE merger.
This also showed that the cautious voices calling for restraint and less haste - that LKY had arrogantly derided before merger - was proven correct by events that followed after merger.
This 'Malaysia for ALL Malaysians' stand was not unreasonable by all sane minds, but to the Malays they find that such a concept will put themselves further into a disadvantaged position in any competition with the other races for equal social or economic space.
Even the frustrations of Sabah and Sarawak politicians with the Malay Nationalist politicians from West Malaysia, resulted in a call for a joint withdrawal from Malaysia declaration and for a new Union of ''3-S'' states of Singapore, Sarawak and Sabah to be made - with LKY as the PM.
Unfortunately, LKY declined this proposal, as he reasoned that it was not possible for a union of 3-states like this, to be separated by a wide expanse of water that is owned by Indonesia and Malaysia.
LKY's eloquence and convincing logic made him a direct threat to the leadership of TAR and also that of the other Politically ambitious Malay Ultras, as LKY was seen by many ordinary Malaysians as the most capable alternative political personality after TAR - to move Malaysia forward.
According to several books written, TAR was surprised at LKY's eloquence in Spoken Bahasa during LKY's maiden speech at the Federal Parliament in Kuala Lumpur, which even won the admiration from Malay politicians for the simple political clarity and logical sense in the ideas that LKY espoused for a Malaysian Malaysia.
It was written that TAR's leadership and brilliance was threatened, as well as that of the self-interest of a small group of Malay nationalist - who felt that their community will be further marginalised if a Malaysian Malaysia provide equal opportunity to all.
LKY's lack of sensitivity towards this group resulted in open confrontation and vitrolic verbal exchanges in the local presses on both sides of the Causeway, which were no different to this day whenever the press become proxy mouth pieces to the respective sides.
After the racial riots of 1963 - which was found by recent researches to be instigated by Malay Ultras to seize political control from TAR - the Malay Ultras quietly headed by DPM Tun Abdul Razak took over all government powers and side-lined TAR.
Subsequent moves were soon followed to either arrest the entire Singapore Cabinet, or in the event of failure to do so, Singapore was to be evicted out of Malaysia.
The Royal Malay Regiment was mobilised to enter Singapore, but somehow word got to the Singapore State Government, who appealed to UK PM Harold Wilson for military assistance to block such a militant outcome that will surely result in bloodshed.
Parts of these events appear in snippets researched in different books, and the whole picture can be pieced together with some other oblique official statements published.
Almost thirty years later, a retired Harold Wilson was invited to attend Singapore's National Day and a Private UK Citizen was accorded State Recognition and a State Banquet, in which LKY clearly expressed his gratitude that without Harold Wilson's intervention and support at the gravest moment of Singapore's History, Singapore [and the cabinet] would not have existed.
Was LKY referring to Harold Wilson's ''undocumented response'' to the ''documented'' highly sensitive moves to send the Royal Malay Regiment into Singapore, or was LKY referreing to the documented accounts of Harold Wilson's support to delay the pull-out of British Troops and closure of the Naval Bases in Singapore ?
No, LKY did not engineer Singapore's exit from Malaysia, but he certainly did push Singapore into a rushed marriage with Malaysia, hoping to wear a shoe that surely is too big for him at that time.
Now it seems, he is too big for a small shoe that he has worn for too long.
[/b] -
Some history actually happened.
Some history are made.
Some history are written.
Some history are re-written. -
There are declassified documents at the British Foreign Office relating to this era. You can make a search and file a request if needed too.
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i am msia chinese, i know how it feel, most probably far better than ur so called undergrad frens. with or w/o the policy, you still need to fight for what you want to achieve. the policy has been ard for decades. yes, it benefited the malays, it made wealth for the malays, it also brought peace to the whole country. look at Indonesia, the anti-chinese in 1997, what was the root of the problem?Originally posted by Spartans:Hello they are NUS undergrad leh. what cannot make it? dun make baseless accusation. U have to be a Malaysian Chinese to experience how they feel.
My guess is those Malaysian Malays who hold the bumi policy dearly are those who cannot make it. Poor grade, nvm still can go uni. No job? go government agency la.
Look at Proton. A good example how much it has declined as a company when it has to employ 80% of its workforce Malays. Are we sure all of them get the job due to merit or race?
for an educated person (esp for those got into uni with poor grade), would you pick up the parang and go chop the chinese while u can actually do ur shopping with your decent salary or even underpaid salary?
take sg for example, if the malays was poor like those in indo, can you guarantee they wont pick up the parang and chop you?
I am happy to see the malays have made their life better, meaning it will be more peaceful. i dont support the policy as well, but i did not deny the "some benefit" it brought to the country.
the problem now is the ppl that making tons of $$ from the policy, they do not want changes. Changes mean loses to them, who dont want to take the millions that put right infront of you. that's y malays are against their onw ppl.
ask ur undergrad frens what differences they can make w/o the policy? would they still come to nus to study w/o the policy.
chinese has strong will of survival, that's y we are still far better than the malays even w/o the help of the government. because of that, your frens can come to nus to study, don't they? -
I agreed as a Chinese Indonesian, I found out in the past 32 years of Suharto rule, Chinese Indonesian were banned from celebrating CNY, learntOriginally posted by WildWildWet:i am msia chinese, i know how it feel, most probably far better than ur so called undergrad frens. with or w/o the policy, you still need to fight for what you want to achieve. the policy has been ard for decades. yes, it benefited the malays, it made wealth for the malays, it also brought peace to the whole country. look at Indonesia, the anti-chinese in 1997, what was the root of the problem?
for an educated person (esp for those got into uni with poor grade), would you pick up the parang and go chop the chinese while u can actually do ur shopping with your decent salary or even underpaid salary?
take sg for example, if the malays was poor like those in indo, can you guarantee they wont pick up the parang and chop you?
I am happy to see the malays have made their life better, meaning it will be more peaceful. i dont support the policy as well, but i did not deny the "some benefit" it brought to the country.
the problem now is the ppl that making tons of $$ from the policy, they do not want changes. Changes mean loses to them, who dont want to take the millions that put right infront of you. that's y malays are against their onw ppl.
ask ur undergrad frens what differences they can make w/o the policy? would they still come to nus to study w/o the policy.
chinese has strong will of survival, that's y we are still far better than the malays even w/o the help of the government. because of that, your frens can come to nus to study, don't they?
Chinese language, displaying Chinese character in their shop n playing
lion dance. If u look at Indonesia, the income gap between the Chinese n
majority is very high. This resulted in the May 1998 racial riot. -
I get your point. The bumpi policy is something like a sweetener for the Malays in exchange for racial harmony. It is like a peace treaty, albeit a fragile one.Originally posted by WildWildWet:i am msia chinese, i know how it feel, most probably far better than ur so called undergrad frens. with or w/o the policy, you still need to fight for what you want to achieve. the policy has been ard for decades. yes, it benefited the malays, it made wealth for the malays, it also brought peace to the whole country. look at Indonesia, the anti-chinese in 1997, what was the root of the problem?
for an educated person (esp for those got into uni with poor grade), would you pick up the parang and go chop the chinese while u can actually do ur shopping with your decent salary or even underpaid salary?
take sg for example, if the malays was poor like those in indo, can you guarantee they wont pick up the parang and chop you?
I am happy to see the malays have made their life better, meaning it will be more peaceful. i dont support the policy as well, but i did not deny the "some benefit" it brought to the country.
the problem now is the ppl that making tons of $$ from the policy, they do not want changes. Changes mean loses to them, who dont want to take the millions that put right infront of you. that's y malays are against their onw ppl.
ask ur undergrad frens what differences they can make w/o the policy? would they still come to nus to study w/o the policy.
chinese has strong will of survival, that's y we are still far better than the malays even w/o the help of the government. because of that, your frens can come to nus to study, don't they?
I support equalities and born in Singapore. Hence I din see the impact of Chinese as a minority in other nation. -
i want equality tooOriginally posted by Spartans:I get your point. The bumpi policy is something like a sweetener for the Malays in exchange for racial harmony. It is like a peace treaty, albeit a fragile one.
I support equalities and born in Singapore. Hence I din see the impact of Chinese as a minority in other nation.
but the fact is inequality happens everywhere, this is the reality, just see in wat aspect and how bad it affects the ppl.
in sg, ppl are talking about double standards btw the poor and the rich
in india, same ppl with diff skin color but the white claims they r the high standard
in US, the black is still treated "not really" equally
...
many to list lor.. and everyday in our life, many shouted "this is not fair." hahaha -
If LKY made use of TAR, in the same way he also made use of the Plen.Originally posted by Rock^Star:Interesting questions from you Bloop.....
There can be no concrete evidence whatsoever, do you believe? To say LKY 'orchestrated' the seperation may perhaps be too strong a word. An opportunist, probably?
Even if a foreign historian were to do a write up that "LKY orchestrated the seperation", how far would that go towards debunking official history that has been in place all these years?
Remember Gavin Menzies who wrote 1421 and claimed it was Cheng Ho who discovered America first?
Think of the Arabs who claimed they were the first to sail round the world when it was historically known to be Magellan?
Anyway, if you were to ask any Malaysian, particularly the Malays, they will tell you that LKY made use of Tunku Abdul Rahman to secure independence. Almost everyone that I ask sing the same tune. Product of brainwash? Maybe.....and one can say the same about Singaporeans.
Even LKY's memoirs......they were meant to be a descriptive and pictorial history. However, what's the feel that one gets after reading it? Self glorification? Most likely.
Historians have always penned history books the way it was meant to be written. That will never change for perpetuity.
If you were in LKY's shoes, what would you have done?
A 44 by 32 km land with only less than 2 million people, no natural resources, no armed forces, no organised police force, gansterism rife etc etc.
Compare that with living under the Malays and having the ruling party jealous of your own PAP. Suffering under the Bumiputera policy where race matters more than merit. A dictator mentality at heart LKY would never have tolerated it.
Of the two evils, which one?
After all, Singapore could still count on its port. Foreign Direct Investment to quickly build the country wouldn't be too difficult an idea to moot, right? -
Originally posted by iveco:
With the green experience that LKY had when first stepping into Political Power in 1957, could LKY have any capacity use the PLEN ?
If LKY made use of TAR, in the same way he also made use of the Plen.
The PLEN was known to be the leader of the Malayan Communist Party, and accusations were made that the MCP was inflitrating the Singapore Tradue Unions so as to have some control over the political affairs of Singapore.
Unfortunately, those who were active unionists during the 1950s were accused as being under the influence of Leftist ideology, when they were no different to the present day dedicated union workers
Yet, when LKY entered politics, no one will support a political party formed by a local born China-man who cannot speak a word of Chinese or dialect, and only can speak the Queen's English.
LKY took a short cut to political power by joining forces with those whom he had accused of being Communists - due to the fact that these folks were more successful in gaining rapport with the Worker Class through their well organised Workers' Union movement.
His involvement with the supposed Communist led Trade Unions was likened to 'riding on the back of the Tiger, and others were watching if he will be consumed by the Tiger when he dismount from its back'
LKY even introduced Lim Chin Siong as the future Prime Minister of Singapore - to then Chief Minister David Marshall - due to his immense oratory talent and ability to gain the support of the common people.
Yet, within a few short years of this amiable relationship, LKY had Lim Chin Siong arrested, and made Lim into a ghost of his former highly charismatic self.
It was during LKY's involvement with the labor movement that he understood the necessity to control the Workers' Union movement.
The first efforts he made on getting into Political Office was to dis-enfranchise the labor movement by legislating all existing unions to be under the umbrella of a National Trade Union Congress.
Did LKY stopped at using those he claimed to be Communists, and the Trade Unions that they controlled ?
According to the PLEN, LKY used TAR and the idea of merging with Malaysia to deal with the Communists in Singapore.
Merger was LKY's key to dismount from the Tiger that he used in the ride to political power.
Did he stopped at using those he claimed to be Communists, and using TAR to get rid of these Communists dominated politics in Singapore ?
If one were to look at the issue of Party Renewal Policy - it looks as if the entire Old Guard had served its purpose, used and persuaded to leave the political stage so as to allow for new blood and renewal of the Political Party.
While this RENEWABLE PROCESS seems to be a reasonable and laudable proposition, everyone in the Old Guard seems to have been dispensable except for LKY.
Should we be surprised at the resentment of some towards this issue that allowed LKY to continue to influence the making of Singapore, and re-write history that allow him alone to bask in all his own glory ?
It is a pity that the retired Old Guards cannot tell their own factual account and interpretation of past events, as they have all been silenced by the Oath of Office taken thirty to fifty years ago.
LKY certainly know how to use talent, most of all his own. -
Great stuff you got there Atobe.
As quoted from 'the PLEN' link:
"......But at the time, I felt, firstly, that some moves by Lee Kuan Yew, especially his raising of the merger issue in haste, were mainly aimed at making use of the strength of Malaysia to suppress the leftist forces to consolidate his power. If the leftists had staged a rebellion unilaterally and carried it almost to the point of a mass uprising, suppression was likely."
This lends credence to the history taught in Malaysia that LKY used TAR to gain ultimate independence for Singapore. -
It is always amazing to read the unique ability of some of these Malaysian commentators giving themselves more credit than they deserve for events that transpired.
Unfortunately for them, the documented statements of many ordinary people - on both sides of the Straits of Johor - have never felt being apart from Malaya; especially the Singapore Politicians and leading personalities in the various local ethnic communities.
From David Marshall to Dr Lee Siew Choh, and even to the PLEN of the Malayan Communist Party and - of course - LKY and his contemporaries - all had the same opinion that Singapore and the Peninsular Malaya are one.
This feeling of being a common people was also enhanced by the same British Colonial Government administering the common territory of Malaya and the three Straits Settlement, this feeling of 'One-ness' was only natural - with travels across the Causeway not requiring and travel documents such as passports.
On top of this political status of the time, many families - from all ethnic groups - have family members on both sides of the Causeway, it was only natural to have feeling of a unified border.
It was this common generational attitude during the 1950s that resulted in the LKY believing himself to be totally correct to push for Singapore to be merged with Malaysia at all cost.
This resulted in his miscalculation and under-estimation of the resentment of the Malay Ultras towards the entry of Singapore and its politicians - to the extent that a clause was placed to bar Singapore Politicians from Peninsular Politics for at least ten years.
At the time of the formation of Malaysia, it was the Malay Politicians that had apprehensions of Singapore being merged as part of Malaysia - as these Malay Politicians were in a position to know that with Singapore entry, it will change the demographics that will dilute their political strength.
While the ordinary Malay communities in the kampongs, small towns, and cities were left unconcerned with the political events, it was these Malay Politician identified by LKY as Ultras, who were determined to create incidents that will result in the Singapore State Government being placed in a corner, or have its political space trimmed, or if not - have LKY or the entire Singapore State Cabinet incarcerated under the ISA.
Obviously, the Malay Ultras during that time was more concerned that LKY will step into Peninsular Politics - as much as they were concerned with LKY pull Singapore out, as these Malay Ultras could not remove their lecherous eyes from the fantasised post of as a Mentri Besar of a wealthy Singapore.
If LKY had desired to gain independence for Singapore by temporarily being merged with Malaysia, he certainly had to pay a high price at being made to eat a very big humble pie to play second fiddle to TAR, made to swallow alot of crap that the Malay Ultras poured onto LKY and the State Cabinet.