National Service for Malaysia
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Recently the Malaysian government have planned to implement NS in their country. What is the possible impact of such an action to the neighbouring countries in particular,Singapore? I can't help but wonder if they are copying our defence strategy,as we are the only country in ASEAN which had already implemented this.Comments is welcomed from both Singaporeans as well as Malysians. Last but not least, NO flaming please! Thanks.
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It is likely that they are doing this because they feel threatened by being caught between two regional military behemoths -- Thailand and Singapore. Also, I think they feel that they need to increase security manpower as a response to the terrorism that seems to be sweeping our region and to be prepared in case of possible disintegration of Indonesia.
It is also true that NS has had good effects on the national character in Singapore. It has helped countless boys turn into men (I wish it would turn whiny girls into women too, but that's a different discussion) It has also fostered national unity. Believe it or not, Malaysia is NOT a very united nation despite being more racially and religiously homogenous that Singapore. In particular the economic divide between East and West Malaysia has been growing wider. I believe that they feel that some form of NS might help to reunite the nation.
In addition, I feel that this indicates that Singapore's policy of military deterrence is starting to backfire. There is a difference between deterrence and aggression. When you grow too strong, you no longer deter, you THREATEN. There have already been a few incidents where we have pushed them back diplomatically with veiled threats of military force. I think that Singapore and Thailand have grown so strong militarily that it has sparked off an arms race in the region. This is not good. No real way to fix this or back out now, but I don't like the way things are heading. -
Frankly speaking, the M'sian chinese ain't going to seat back and allow that to happen. I suppose they will put up some opposition to that.
The upper class chinese especially so from Eastern M'sia might find a way around it to avoid being drafted into the armed force.
Militarily, the chinese are not as incline as their malay counterpart. -
No matter how the chinese protest about the topic ,if the malaysian govt is really onto it..it will no affect the govt's plan.
However if they are going to implement such ideas , significently they will face financial problems and ethnic problems which will take some time for them to settle.
Their plan for NS , i really see it as a challenge to singapore , after the water issues and many jealousy issues . With new MLRS, new MBT ,Scopene , SAMs .....then now NS.....wa piang they are really into it.
Wish them luck.......and hope they wont be funny with us. -
The implementation of NS into Malaysia poses serious complications to Singapore's defence strategy. First and foremost, one of our major strengths over the MAF is our quantitive superiority in men and armanent. The recent purchases by the Malaysians, as mentioned by dkhoo, was aimed at negating the effectivness of the latter, while NS is directed at leveling the playing field with us, in terms of personnel. With universal conscription, the MAF could potentially swell to hundreds of thousands during war.
In short, the SAF could be facing a larger, more well-equipped enemy if it tries to invade Malaysia.
I hope that the government sits up, takes notice of this, and introduces conscription for women.
Joking lah
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From reliable sources, malaysia version of NS is not like the drafted Singapore or Israel one. Their's would probably be a year or a half, their training will be less military prone, more like some kind of "boy scout" camp, singing songs and field camps, some basic weaponary (M16 rifles) training plus lots of drills to forge racial harmony and enforce self discipline which they really lack, more like civil defence cum para-milita type of forces where you find tons of them in Indonesian. After the training whacking their boys to become man, they will become civilians and say bye bye to regimental life forever. Unlike Singapore where you still have to serve 13 years of reserves, frequent in-camp trainings plus IPPT to ensure you are in shape.
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From the MALAYsian News Report, the PM was supposed to have said that National Service may not be for the military, but as a tool for the purpose of nation building and making social cohesion.
Then again, we can only speculate without any clear directions, as matters remain unclear since the MALAYsian PM is not sure where to deploy the NS manpower.
If our NSF "boys" have "very sian" attitude, even after we have NS since 1966, matters may turn out worse with MALAYsia starting this from scratch; and in a society that is racially divided.
Imagine a Malay RSM chewing the head off a Chinese or Indian recruit, calling him all the un-Islamic derogatory and insulting Army language, it will be more divisive then the intended objective of creating social cohesion and nation building.
Leave it to them to make grand plans, and screwing the dreams into plenty of bubbles. -
What? Their NS is nothing more than a bunch of glorified boy scouts?
And here I am, worried about NCC cadets overrunning Singapore. Pai seh ah.
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its their country and their youths... its been known that conscription is an effective means of political socialization IF utilized properly...
it can breed comraderie, but familiarity also breeds contempt... especially in a multi-ethnic enviornment.
M'sia, i wonder... the armed forces is overwhelmingly bumi in composition. can't exactly blame the chinese for not wanting to get involved u know... reasons are so obvious: chinese have never had a high opinion of armed services until very recent years. many still don't. the fact that it doesn't pay well certainly discourages them too.
so u get a mixed bunch, put a bumi in charge and show them discipline and miltary regimentation... net-result? men killing each other in their free time until they are united by their dislike for their bumi instructors...
don't even bring in the problem of having bumi recruits in the bunch... more problems...
what if they have a mixed group of instructors??? why don't u tell me if that's acually remotely possible
bringing different ethnicities together can actually be quite a messy issue especially if it is not properly organised and the organizers have not taken proper precautions of the sensibilities involved...
Sg faces problems like that once in awhile still... and the people are actually socialised from childhood here in ethnically mixed gov't schools.
its simplistic to think that bringing people together will simply allow them to get along better. the opposite is more true if u're not careful actually. -
When NS was first launched in SGP, the early complains about food were that "no pork" was served, everyday curry rubber chicken, or curry mutton, or stewed mutton, or stewed hard beef - but just no pork. Reason was that the Chief at the Cook House was more then not a Singaporean Regular Soldier who is a Muslim and a Malay.
It was only after much feedback that we got to see "char siew" for the large ethnic Chinese, and separate kitchen and wash up place for our Muslim brothers in the SAF.
Do you think that the MAF will ever accomodate the ethnic Chinese of MALAYsia, and do "char siew" for them ?
It will be the same problem, every day curry this or curry that, same as Singapore's experience back in the early NSF days.
When morale is low with food, the antagonism and negative feelings about all things NS will be looked at in a negatively low and very "sian" way.
Rubbed salt into open wounds, with the insults thrown by domineering "Malai" "Tan Chiak Peng" NCO's and Officers, the ethnic Chinese and Indians will be more upset and demoralized.
In the first place the ethnic Chinese and Indians will feel that they are forced into NS to be "trained" to fight for a country which they already experienced being treated as SECOND CLASS Citizens. -
When NS was first launched in SGP, the early complains about food were that "no pork" was served, everyday curry rubber chicken, or curry mutton, or stewed mutton, or stewed hard beef - but just no pork. Reason was that the Chief at the Cook House was more then not a Singaporean Regular Soldier who is a Muslim and a Malay.
It was only after much feedback that we got to see "char siew" for the large ethnic Chinese, and separate kitchen and wash up place for our Muslim brothers in the SAF.
Do you think that the MAF will ever accomodate the ethnic Chinese of MALAYsia, and do "char siew" for them ?
It will be the same problem, every day curry this or curry that, same as Singapore's experience back in the early NSF days.
When morale is low with food, the antagonism and negative feelings about all things NS will be looked at in a negatively low and very "sian" way.
Rubbed salt into open wounds, with the insults thrown by domineering "Malai" "Tan Chiak Peng" NCO's and Officers, the ethnic Chinese and Indians will be more upset and demoralized.
In the first place the ethnic Chinese and Indians will feel that they are forced into NS to be "trained" to fight for a country which they already experienced being treated as SECOND CLASS Citizens. -
When NS was first launched in SGP, the early complains about food were that "no pork" was served, everyday curry rubber chicken, or curry mutton, or stewed mutton, or stewed hard beef - but just no pork. Reason was that the Chief at the Cook House was more then not a Singaporean Regular Soldier who is a Muslim and a Malay.
It was only after much feedback that we got to see "char siew" for the large ethnic Chinese, and separate kitchen and wash up place for our Muslim brothers in the SAF.
Do you think that the MAF will ever accomodate the ethnic Chinese of MALAYsia, and do "char siew" for them ?
It will be the same problem, every day curry this or curry that, same as Singapore's experience back in the early NSF days.
When morale is low with food, the antagonism and negative feelings about all things NS will be looked at in a negatively low and very "sian" way.
Rubbed salt into open wounds, with the insults thrown by domineering "Malai" "Tan Chiak Peng" NCO's and Officers, the ethnic Chinese and Indians will be more upset and demoralized.
In the first place the ethnic Chinese and Indians will feel that they are forced into NS to be "trained" to fight for a country which they already experienced being treated as SECOND CLASS Citizens. -
When NS was first launched in SGP, the early complains about food were that "no pork" was served, everyday curry rubber chicken, or curry mutton, or stewed mutton, or stewed hard beef - but just no pork. Reason was that the Chief at the Cook House was more then not a Singaporean Regular Soldier who is a Muslim and a Malay.
It was only after much feedback that we got to see "char siew" for the large ethnic Chinese, and separate kitchen and wash up place for our Muslim brothers in the SAF.
Do you think that the MAF will ever accomodate the ethnic Chinese of MALAYsia, and do "char siew" for them ?
It will be the same problem, every day curry this or curry that, same as Singapore's experience back in the early NSF days.
When morale is low with food, the antagonism and negative feelings about all things NS will be looked at in a negatively low and very "sian" way.
Rubbed salt into open wounds, with the insults thrown by domineering "Malai" "Tan Chiak Peng" NCO's and Officers, the ethnic Chinese and Indians will be more upset and demoralized.
In the first place the ethnic Chinese and Indians will feel that they are forced into NS to be "trained" to fight for a country which they already experienced being treated as SECOND CLASS Citizens. -
When NS was first launched in SGP, the early complains about food were that "no pork" was served, everyday curry rubber chicken, or curry mutton, or stewed mutton, or stewed hard beef - but just no pork. Reason was that the Chief at the Cook House was more then not a Singaporean Regular Soldier who is a Muslim and a Malay.
It was only after much feedback that we got to see "char siew" for the large ethnic Chinese, and separate kitchen and wash up place for our Muslim brothers in the SAF.
Do you think that the MAF will ever accomodate the ethnic Chinese of MALAYsia, and do "char siew" for them ?
It will be the same problem, every day curry this or curry that, same as Singapore's experience back in the early NSF days.
When morale is low with food, the antagonism and negative feelings about all things NS will be looked at in a negatively low and very "sian" way.
Rubbed salt into open wounds, with the insults thrown by domineering "Malai" "Tan Chiak Peng" NCO's and Officers, the ethnic Chinese and Indians will be more upset and demoralized.
In the first place the ethnic Chinese and Indians will feel that they are forced into NS to be "trained" to fight for a country which they already experienced being treated as SECOND CLASS Citizens. -
Apologies for the multiple posting - server must have hung while my post was being submitted, as my PC was in suspended animation. -
do u think any country in this region dare to wage war on others?
obviously none, why the hell behave so aggresive.
PEACE man, we want PEACE!!!!! -
Typhoon, I take that as an insult to the NCC, hah, When you come home I'll make sure that you'll never get to see NCC Cadets running around S'pore or anything else! Anyway, the like all of the above reasons, another factor would be economic growth, where the hell do you think Malaysia is fill up all the places of men who are going to NS, it might cripple their economy. Also, in the modern battelfield, it is not how many men you've got but how many NUKES you've got
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What can I say abt their NSF's? Well... More kills for each of us.
Interesting scenario if M'sia decides to put only bumis in charge of such militia units. All a Singaporean force needs to do is selectively blow away the officers and specialists, and the unit will surrender wholesale. -
the only viable use for a bunch of semi-trained, lightly equipped militiamen would be local defence and internal security... to guard towns and protect it from looters and crooks, freeing up regular troops for front line engagements.Originally posted by LeFire:What can I say abt their NSF's? Well... More kills for each of us.
Interesting scenario if M'sia decides to put only bumis in charge of such militia units. All a Singaporean force needs to do is selectively blow away the officers and specialists, and the unit will surrender wholesale.
aka: protecting m'sia from itself
but then again, would they arm people they don't trust completely to protect their civillians, women and children? -
I think they have to consider a few implications:Originally posted by CX:the only viable use for a bunch of semi-trained, lightly equipped militiamen would be local defence and internal security... to guard towns and protect it from looters and crooks, freeing up regular troops for front line engagements.
aka: protecting m'sia from itself
but then again, would they arm people they don't trust completely to protect their civillians, women and children?
1. Muslim extremists will get "free" military training.
2. It is also a good breeding ground for muslim extremists to recruit semi-trained NS men.
3. Give some states the incentive to break away from the federation (in extreme cases). You got your population with some basic military training and maybe weapons to go with... dangerous proposition.
4. lead to false sense of military strength. The sayings go... a little knowledge is dangerous... more so with military training.... may give trouble to neighouring countries.
5. Deem to fail if the objective is to promote "patrioism". It is better to learn from Singapore, China or the US. Sing more "Count on me Malaysia" songs and maybe you will get your next generation to be better patriots.
These are just some of my personal opinions... -
Read up an interesting book recently. In it was a part about the 726th German Grenadier Regiment back during the invasion of Normandy. Major Lehman of the 2nd Battalion lead his men in a determined stand against the allied force despite being overrun by the Canadians. The stubbornness of the individual German rifleman together with a leader, they mounted various attacks along the rear of the Canucks. On one occasion, the Canadians had to recall their armor to take position. The last messaged recieved from the Major was, "Hand to hand fighting inside command post." And finally the Major's battalion was smashed.
Will any of the Singaporean NSF or even regulars make such a determined defence despite circumstances, and fight to the end? Or is the war over for them the moment they run out of ammunition? Will the Malaysians defend themselves like ferocious cornered rats if they have to? -
you're missing the point: its not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.Originally posted by Shotgun:Read up an interesting book recently. In it was a part about the 726th German Grenadier Regiment back during the invasion of Normandy. Major Lehman of the 2nd Battalion lead his men in a determined stand against the allied force despite being overrun by the Canadians. The stubbornness of the individual German rifleman together with a leader, they mounted various attacks along the rear of the Canucks. On one occasion, the Canadians had to recall their armor to take position. The last messaged recieved from the Major was, "Hand to hand fighting inside command post." And finally the Major's battalion was smashed.
Will any of the Singaporean NSF or even regulars make such a determined defence despite circumstances, and fight to the end? Or is the war over for them the moment they run out of ammunition? Will the Malaysians defend themselves like ferocious cornered rats if they have to?
i believe most people are motivated not by patriotism but by self-centered survival instincts. u got no place to run, no place to hide, u'll certainly be tortured if u surrender, what else can u do???
the last thing any desperate commander should do is to gather his last remaining strength and charge the enemy and try to die gloriously
u make the job of finishing u off SO much easier! the russians lost 100 000 dead trying to take berlin.
the americans were so glad when japanese garrissons in the pacific gave up and charged at machine guns shouting "banzai!" ... it finishes in 5 mins something that might have otherwise taken 5 weeks
the japanese looks patriotic this way, but the net gain is not worth the sacrifice! a thinking soldier knows better. -
hee hee... that is SO true...Originally posted by Joe Black:4. lead to false sense of military strength. The sayings go... a little knowledge is dangerous... more so with military training.... may give trouble to neighouring countries.
These are just some of my personal opinions... -
Originally posted by CX:
The purpose of SGP having an NS Force is to make ourselves a "poisonous pawn" in the event any big fish try to swallow us.
you're missing the point: its not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.
i believe most people are motivated not by patriotism but by self-centered survival instincts. u got no place to run, no place to hide, u'll certainly be tortured if u surrender, what else can u do???
[b]the last thing any desperate commander should do is to gather his last remaining strength and charge the enemy and try to die gloriously
u make the job of finishing u off SO much easier! the russians lost 100 000 dead trying to take berlin.
the americans were so glad when japanese garrissons in the pacific gave up and charged at machine guns shouting "banzai!" ... it finishes in 5 mins something that might have otherwise taken 5 weeks
the japanese looks patriotic this way, but the net gain is not worth the sacrifice! a thinking soldier knows better.[/b]
We will make them pay a hefty price for any adventurous spirit.
As for ourselves being members of an NS Force, our job is to survive each day to kill more enemy who dare to challenge our right to exist.
We have to survive each day of battle with our wits and cunning, and not just with brute force and fire power.
Each NSF trooper has to fight smart, with animal instinct and cunning to overwhelm the enemy's resistance, and to ensure the survival of ourselves and our comrades. -
U missed the point also. The point is, are our men willing to fight to the end SHOULD the circumstances arise.
The Major did not charge foolishly to die like the stupid japs. He gathered remaining forces, and skillfully struck at the rear of the Canadian forces. Ultimately taking the command tent. His under-strengthed unit had already lasted longer than normal. His actions bought ther Germans the crucial time needed to form a crude defensive line. By charging the command tent, he had halted an armored rush deep into France.
If called for, are we even brave enough to fight so tenaciously?