Question for Malaysians
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Originally posted by Arcane77:
thats not true... the talibans were former mujaheedins fighting against the USSR... as a result, they were funded, equiped and trained by many western countries. many of them are really quite well educated... thanks to western and mid-eastern scholarships.
thats the problem! the so called Taliban weren't even educated enough to understand their own holy book to see that the message of a holy war was completely taken into the wrong and literal context making it something it shouldnt have become!
education!!! not religious education is needed!! the muslim religion is really a dictatorship over peoples freedom to be civilized human beings.!!!!
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the traditional place of education for Muslim higher learning is Egypt. don't be surprised that many of them have degrees from there.
its not possible at this point to trace who went where and did what degree in which university, but its not an unknown fact that Ahmad Shah Masoud, the northern alliance leader that got blown to pieces by suicide bombers posing as reporters, had a degree from a French university and could speak several western languages fluently.
yes, he was northern alliance, not taliban. but if u ask me, its just the label. when they were fighting the USSR, they all did the same thing and they all rallied around the banner of Islam and national liberation. back then, u couldn't tell them apart anyway.
u can't be pig ignorant and still be able to wield effectively the powers which oppressive institutions give u.
narrow-minded, maybe... ignorant? no.
thats the whole danger of this thing: most of them are not uneducated, indoctrinated zealots. they are quite well educated, capable of logic and reason but their leanings have shifted their sense of logic and reason to standards which we find... inexplicable... but its perfectly reasonable to them. -
Fact: The Taliban never fought the Soviets, in any shape or form. The Taliban movement rose up from the madrasahs in Pakistan in the early 1990s from Afghan refugee students of these madrasahs as a form of an "anti-establishment" movement, gaining its power and support through a snowball effect from Afghans disenchanted by the inter-fighting between the warlords by painting itself as a national unity movement and more often than not, resorting to the age old Afghan tradition of buyouts of its rivals. This financial backing, and the location of its roots, led to suspcion that its main backer(since proven) was Pakistan's ISI.Originally posted by CX:thats not true... the talibans were former mujaheedins fighting against the USSR... as a result, they were funded, equiped and trained by many western countries. many of them are really quite well educated... thanks to western and mid-eastern scholarships.
the traditional place of education for Muslim higher learning is Egypt. don't be surprised that many of them have degrees from there.
its not possible at this point to trace who went where and did what degree in which university, but its not an unknown fact that Ahmad Shah Masoud, the northern alliance leader that got blown to pieces by suicide bombers posing as reporters, had a degree from a French university and could speak several western languages fluently.
yes, he was northern alliance, not taliban. but if u ask me, its just the label. when they were fighting the USSR, they all did the same thing and they all rallied around the banner of Islam and national liberation. back then, u couldn't tell them apart anyway.
u can't be pig ignorant and still be able to wield effectively the powers which oppressive institutions give u. narrow-minded, maybe... ignorant? no.
thats the whole danger of this thing: most of them are not uneducated, indoctrinated zealots. they are quite well educated, capable of logic and reason but their leanings have shifted their sense of logic and reason to standards which we find... inexplicable... but its perfectly reasonable to them.
Fact: The word Taliban is derived from the word Talib, which loosely translated, means 'student' or 'learner'
Fact: Mullah Omar, the Taliban's leader, has NEVER travelled beyond Pakistan.
Fact: Omar does not like to be known as Mullah('Teacher' or 'giver of knowledge'), instead preferring to be known also as a 'Talib'.
"u can't be pig ignorant and still be able to wield effectively the powers which oppressive institutions give u. narrow-minded, maybe... ignorant? no. "
Why not? When those you're ruling over are more pig-ignorant and uneducated than you, and when they're so tired of the status quo they'll accept anything else, and when you're backed financially and militarily by outside forces, factors which were rife in Afghanistan in the early 1990s when the Taliban swept to power, it is certainly possible. -
Double post deleted by Viper52
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Any war with My will ultimately lead to heavy casualties not only on Sg side, but on My side as well. If possible, we would like to avoid a war at all cost as well. Battling JI would be a more viable task at hand. About the point of indocutrination, I believe that Sg should be doing the same thing as well...think of it more as a reminder that we should do more for our country and have a nation before self thinking.Originally posted by Typhoon:Oh yah, Sudaimiki...
About your country's NS. While I agree that it is intended for nation building purposes, it still poses a danger to Sg, reason being that My is providing training for your people (even women) and indoctrinating them to give their lives for Malaysia. Thus, although My is not exactly training them to be line troops, what they are doing is to create large numbers of trained, motivated guerilla fighters. Since our country relies on conscripts and reservists, a long guerilla war with My will eventually lead to heavy casualties for Sg. So I believe you can understand our concerns.
I believe that Sg faced similar resistance towards soldiering during 1967 but gradually, people come to realise it as a part of life. I believe it would be the same for My. The point on islamic extremists is not that viable...if so Singapore with their more rigourous trainning of troops would provide a even more fertile area for such impressionable minds. The onus to educate these minds lies with the proper religious authorities, that is to impart to them proper islamic values. Otherwise, if one wants to follow the extremist code, he could easily get recruited by JI and they would give him or her trainning that is far more suited to their purpose.Originally posted by Typhoon:On the other hand, there may be some problems for you, too. There will be the traditional resistance to soldiering, especiallyfrom the chinese. Also, have you ever considered the possibility of NS benefiting islamic extremists by providing trained, impressionable recruits?
This is another anser to your point on indoctriation. By doing so, in the long run, races will gell together and would crease to view each other with suspicion if they are working towards a common good. -
Originally posted by Sudaimiki:
yes... in the long run, it might help ethnic integration. but only if managed properly.
This is another anser to your point on indoctriation. By doing so, in the long run, races will gell together and would crease to view each other with suspicion if they are working towards a common good.
it is difficult to erase years of misunderstandings, prejudices and attitudes in 6 months.
i have a bold point to make: ethnic integration is NOT going to happen unless the bumiputra policy goes.
its obvious! there isn't equal opportunities for all ethnicities. you are not going to be able to convince anybody that "we are all equal and m'sians".
even if it was well executed in the 6 months, u expect them to stay indoctrinated throughout their life expectancy?
and what if it was ill-conceived, badly planned and poorly executed? it'll widen the ethnic schism because now, everyone can see their misunderstandongs, prejudices and pre-conceived notions come true and up close.
in Sg, NSmen talk about their NS experience for years after their 2.5 years. both the good AND the bad experiences.
thats why i'm skeptical that its going to amount to anything. its still the same rotten, discriminatory superstructure underneath. -
Originally posted by Viper52:Fact: The Taliban never fought the Soviets, in any shape or form. The Taliban movement rose up from the madrasahs in Pakistan in the early 1990s from Afghan refugee students of these madrasahs as a form of an "anti-establishment" movement, gaining its power and support through a snowball effect from Afghans disenchanted by the inter-fighting between the warlords by painting itself as a national unity movement and more often than not, resorting to the age old Afghan tradition of buyouts of its rivals. This financial backing, and the location of its roots, led to suspcion that its main backer(since proven) was Pakistan's ISI.
Fact: The word Taliban is derived from the word Talib, which loosely translated, means 'student' or 'learner'
Fact: Mullah Omar, the Taliban's leader, has NEVER travelled beyond Pakistan.
Fact: Omar does not like to be known as Mullah('Teacher' or 'giver of knowledge'), instead preferring to be known also as a 'Talib'.
"u can't be pig ignorant and still be able to wield effectively the powers which oppressive institutions give u. narrow-minded, maybe... ignorant? no. "
Why not? When those you're ruling over are more pig-ignorant and uneducated than you, and when they're so tired of the status quo they'll accept anything else, and when you're backed financially and militarily by outside forces, factors which were rife in Afghanistan in the early 1990s when the Taliban swept to power, it is certainly possible.
ok... my mistake... failed to verify... -
sfd