SDP disappointed with WP's IBA comments
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It is unfortunate that the Workers' Party Chairman Sylvia Lim feels that Singapore can deal with rule of law issues without support from the international community.
If that were the case, then why did Mr Chia Thye Poh remain detained without trial for 32 long years?
Ms Lim says that: "We Singaporeans are quite capable of deciding what kind of country we want."
By logical extension, did Singaporeans want Mr Chia Thye Poh's three-decade detention? Did Singaporeans want the media to be completely under the thumb of the PAP? Did the people support the manipulation of the electoral process?
The truth is that Singaporeans, while wanting to decide what kind of country we want for ourselves, have been unable to do so because our rights, including our right to free and fair elections have been crushed by the PAP.
It is therefore disappointing that as an opposition leader, Ms Lim feels that the election system is acceptable and that the outcome must be respected. We may not be able to do anything to change the election outcome but we do not have to respect it.
We need to fight to win back these rights and we need to change our political system. In short, we need reform.
To be very sure, only Singaporeans can effect that change. But let us not fantasize. We also need support from the democratic world as Taiwan, Indonesia, the Philippines, South Africa, Poland, Serbia, Chile, etc. needed it. And as Burma now desperately needs it.
On this matter, isn't it a trifle hypocritical for us to condemn the regime in Burma and call for democratic change there while in the next breath call on others to stop interfering in our own affairs?
It is true that the PAP says it doesn't want foreign interference. It is also a lie. What do you call the National Wages Council having American, German and Japanese business representatives sitting on its board deciding the wage levels of Singaporean workers?
If we shun foreign interference, why did the Singapore Government invite the IBA here. Shouldn't the Government have taken the IBA president to task for saying that Singapore has an "outstanding legal profession and judiciary?"
The truth is not that the PAP does not want foreigners interfering in our domestic affairs. Comments from foreigners, be they compliments or criticisms, are consider interference. While the PAP welcomes the former, it rejects the latter.
In a similar vein, Ms Lim accepts the accolades of the legal/judicial system of business groups. What is troubling is that she ignores studied criticisms of legal watchdog organizations such as Lawyers Rights Watch Canada, New York City Bar Association and the International Commission Jurists.
Does she consider these researched but critical reports "foreign interference" while welcoming the complimentary surveys of organisations cited by Mr Lee Kuan Yew?
In order for Singaporeans to decide what we really want for our country, we need an election system that is free and fair, a media that is not controlled by the ruling party, and the freedom of speech and peaceful assembly.
None of these institutions exist in Singapore. Without them the wishes and wants of Singaporeans can be, and are being, manipulated by the PAP to serve its own interests.
Help for Singaporeans so that they can be empowered to speak up against the suffocating grip of the PAP is not interference. Interference is when a foreign government supports one party over another as the British did with Mr Lee Kuan Yew and his wing in the PAP.
For the record, the SDP welcomes support for efforts to democratise Singapore. Beyond that we reject attempts to influence the policies of any political party by outsiders.
It is disappointing that the Chairman of the Workers' Party cannot see this distinction but instead parrots what the PAP so disingenuously advocates.
Appeasing the PAP so that we can be an acceptable opposition is not to "draw a balance" as Ms Lim claims. It is rather an unfortunate tactic that will be conveniently exploited by the PAP.
The SDP said it before and we say it again: Singapore's Opposition cannot stand up for the people on bended knees. -
I think he should reflect on why WP and SDA has seats in parliament while he sits outside.
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IN A 1995 PARLIAMENTARY debate, Chiam See Tong, founder of the Singapore Democratic Party (SDP), chided the group for not defending Singapore's judiciary against criticisms emanating from the U.S. In response, Chiam's colleagues asked he resign from the party and run as a candidate of the ruling People's Action Party (PAP) instead. Did they defame Chiam by suggesting that he was acting dishonorably? Yes, says a Singapore court. In a Dec. 26 judgment, it ordered SDP secretary-general Chee Soon Juan and 11 other party stalwarts to pay $85,700 in damages to Chiam, who resigned from the SDP last month. In the campaigning for the Jan. 2 general election, the ruling is an embarrassment for the SDP.
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This is so true. They are willing to stand up for Singaporeans at great cost to themselves. Kudos to them. Without them, Singaporeans would be treated even worse and have even more of their money siphoned away to pay people relentlessly taking public money to put into their own pockets.Originally posted by kramnave:The SDP said it before and we say it again: Singapore's Opposition cannot stand up for the people on bended knees. -
The principle of the Rule of law is intended to be a safeguard against arbitrary governance, whether by a totalitarian leader or by mob rule. Since Singapore is a pseudo-democracy with no proper respect for human rights, thereÂ’s no rule of law in Singapore.
Nevermind what Sylvia said. A responsible political party will urge the public to turn their enthusiasm and energy toward deepening education in the rule of law and strengthening the system. If the Workers party does not promote democracy and respect human rights, itÂ’s not democractic party.
Once democracy and human rights are achieved, bills can always be introduced in parliament to have unfair and unjust laws reversed or changed.
Enough of one party rule. -
i'm disappointed with SDP thinking that everything must go to 'international' whatever...
frankly, it just shows SDP's inability to think at all, and their sheer impotence that everything must 'meet international' whatever..
here, Sylvia Lim was right to put down SDP..
btw, the 'international community' probably doesn't give a flying rat's ass about anything other than their own country's interest... so what do you think they would say if SDP went crying to them apart from take advantage of the situation and try to forward their own country's agenda?
is it possible that the 'brilliant' CSJ can't even see this?
the question becomes, is he THAT dumb? or is he a puppet of someone foreign?
either way, it's a blight on the party he backstabbed into his hands, and worse, he's a disgrace to Singapore... -
WP is not really fighting for human rights or freedom of speech, they just concentrate in Hougang doing town council job, they shold be more active in the national level
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ultimately, what is the job of the MP?
to serve the people?
or to 'fight for human rights' and all that?
and.. basically, what kind of 'human rights' do singaporeans really lack?Originally posted by t_a_s:WP is not really fighting for human rights or freedom of speech, they just concentrate in Hougang doing town council job, they shold be more active in the national level -
If they try to do that, they would be dishonorably persecuted. Not everyone is as noble as Dr Chee and SDP.Originally posted by t_a_s:WP is not really fighting for human rights or freedom of speech, they just concentrate in Hougang doing town council job, they shold be more active in the national level
Knowing that Singaporeans are blinded by the propaganda, they continue to soldier on for what is right. This is the true mark of righteous people.
Christians use to be like that because Jesus told them that they would be persecuted for doing good, but unfortunately the Christians in Singapore as evidenced by the mega churches, are only interested in making as much money as fast as possible. -
noble
ahahahahahahahaha!
nevermind.. but.. ahahahahahaha!
damn.. you're funny
i guess you have been the one blinded by CSJ.. nevermind.. you have the right to your opinion... but damn, you're funnyOriginally posted by AndrewPKYap:If they try to do that, they would be dishonorably persecuted. Not everyone is as noble as Dr Chee and SDP.
Knowing that Singaporeans are blinded by the propaganda, they continue to soldier on for what is right. This is the true mark of righteous people.
Christians use to be like that because Jesus told them that they would be persecuted for doing good, but unfortunately the Christians in Singapore as evidenced by the mega churches, are only interested in making as much money as fast as possible. -
gone a little mad resulting from the personal hatred of one man? -
we lack freedom of speech, we cant criticise government, whatever laws they pass we have no say, we cant comment, like the recent annuity case, they bulldozed through during parliement session, PM said it is compulsory, means it is compulsory, all MPs are yes man,their hands are tighted, they cant represent the ppl. In the meet the ppl session recently in Thomson, Raymond Lim could not even answer properly, The Kranji farm issue, and many more, seem like the Bear does not catch up with the current affair. So if u are contented with what the current situation in Singapore then I dont blame you, you can lead a happy life, government said what, you just obey, there are many ppl like this, why bother so much, we have a roof over our head. Ok talk about the job of MP, how can they serve us? you mean when our corridor is dirty, they will clean for us, we complain the neighbour keep big dog, he will take action, we say we dont have a garden, he will build for us, these minor issues can be solved by the town councilers not MPs, I think we can do away MPs because they cant help and fight for us, it is a waste of money taking $13k a month, malay says 'gaji buta'Originally posted by the Bear:ultimately, what is the job of the MP?
to serve the people?
or to 'fight for human rights' and all that?
and.. basically, what kind of 'human rights' do singaporeans really lack? -
nope..
i see your silly hero-worship of a charlatan...
poor you.. hoodwinked by someone whom most singaporeans KNOW is not worth their time
we know a person by their actions.. and also their intent..
all the intentions of his actions? are all publicity stunts..
his standing for elections all the time means he's seeking public office..
what is the reason for seeking public office? there must be only one - to serve the public..
so far, he hasn't served the public at all.. even his own party now doubts him..
in fact, all he has done is to destroy the credibility of the opposition.. something slowly and hard won by other opposition members who served the people directly.. people like the one whose back has his knife, and people like WP's LTK...
by his publicity stunts which any semi-intelligent person can see is self-serving, he has squandered the pool of public sympathy and made the people even more apathetic as they equate him with the hard-working opposition people who actually serve the people...
frankly, if he was a mole of the MIW, he could not have done better...
all he's done is to set up the guillable like you for a bad fall, and disgrace the opposition.. he has serve the MIW well..
damn it..
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap: gone a little mad resulting from the personal hatred of one man? -
btw, i have the same disdain for JBJ...
he has no policies.. he has airy fairy things which are of no use... and was dictated by the hatred of LKY...
and most of all, i have no love for the MIW either.. but give credit where it is due, just as you give vilification.. -
But if compare JBJ and CSJ, JBJ has more votes 40 over %, so he is actually like by the ppl thogh he has no clear policyOriginally posted by the Bear:btw, i have the same disdain for JBJ...
he has no policies.. he has airy fairy things which are of no use... and was dictated by the hatred of LKY...
and most of all, i have no love for the MIW either.. but give credit where it is due, just as you give vilification.. -
A shrewd move by Slyvia to distant her party from Chee's.
In marketing, this is known as "differentiation". You can consider it as a a form of "branding" too.
Haha, WP is certainly in good hands. I'm glad for Singaporeans. -
Your constant hang-up with CSJ backstabbing efforts must surely spring from your own experience.Originally posted by the Bear:i'm disappointed with SDP thinking that everything must go to 'international' whatever...
frankly, it just shows SDP's inability to think at all, and their sheer impotence that everything must 'meet international' whatever..
here, Sylvia Lim was right to put down SDP..
btw, the 'international community' probably doesn't give a flying rat's ass about anything other than their own country's interest... so what do you think they would say if SDP went crying to them apart from take advantage of the situation and try to forward their own country's agenda?
is it possible that the 'brilliant' CSJ can't even see this?
the question becomes, is he THAT dumb? or is he a puppet of someone foreign?
either way, it's a blight on the party he backstabbed into his hands, and worse, he's a disgrace to Singapore...
Surely, after the detailed exposure of your silly 'backstabbing efforts' - you must be more then DUMB to believe in this fantasy, or are you a puppet of someone to continue to propagate this line of thought ?
Is it even possible for one who has posted 'brilliant' material to even adopt this line of corrupting facts into fantasy ?
Was there any social contract made between CSJ and Singaporeans ?
What has CSJ done to you or any Singaporeans - when at best he was a sheer disappointment at a time when everyone had high hopes for him - as the first highly educated person to stand on the Alternative Platform ?
Why should you be '' disappointed with SDP thinking that everything must go to 'international' whatever...'' - when even LKY and his MIW clones believe in going Global, and expecting Singaporeans to match up to Global Competition in education, healthcare, science and industry ?
Are you left with any objectivity whenever you deal with the subject involving CSJ or the SDP ?
Your attitude towards CSJ is remarkable for the vicious venom that you spit at CSJ; and is all the more disturbing considering the dark personal attitude revealed from your inner depths that are reflected in your unsubstantiated views towards CSJ.
Is there any objectivity or credibility left with your views on CSJ, when you start from a premise in distorting the events that transpired, into a backstabbing fantasy ? -
double-post -
1. If you bother to read this thread in its entirety:Originally posted by the Bear:nope..
i see your silly hero-worship of a charlatan...
Dr Chee Soon Juan is brilliant [page: 1, 2, 3,... 10, 11, 12]
You would have seen from the arguments many people made that he was no charlatan but a maligned figure by people elected to serve but instead use their resources to protect their self interests; the self interests of dishonorable despots through their propaganda.
I do not consider it as "hero-worship" when the admiration of the man is backed up by the brilliant arguments in the said thread by many.
I also said many times to you but you purposely ignore it, and that is, Dr Chee is fighting a righteous cause and I support his cause. In order to support the cause, you have to support the man.
So all in all, I still think that you:Originally posted by AndrewPKYap: gone a little mad resulting from the personal hatred of one man? -
I sift the ST and compare with her full speech in the WP website to see how credible ST reporting is.
I don't think that Jaya and Sylvia are in agreement on the country's rule of law issue, especially the criminal laws. The ST is using word choice and tone to influence readers.
Will have to wait for the speech to be uploaded in youtube to remove that doubt.
ExcerptsFrom her full speech:
At this point I should say that conferences such as these are very useful for us to benchmark ourselves against international practices, but finally we Singaporeans can decide for ourselves what kind of country we want.
From ST free story (Â… notice the word choice and tone) :
We don't need outside interference, says Sylvia Lim (did she actually said these words)
By Lee Siew Hua
And while the IBA and other global conferences are useful for Singapore to measure itself against international benchmarks on issues like rule of law, no external help is needed, she indicated, saying:
'We Singaporeans are quite capable of deciding what kind of country we want...I don't think we need anyone outside to canvass our agenda for us.' (did she actually said these words) From the SDP article:
I say: “Do not be so arrogant to dismiss the need of support from the international community so soon.”
Ms Lim says that: "We Singaporeans are quite capable of deciding what kind of country we want." -
Originally posted by googoomuck:
[b]I sift the ST and compare with her full speech in the WP website to see how credible ST reporting is.
I don't think that Jaya and Sylvia are in agreement on the country's rule of law issue, especially the criminal laws. The ST is using word choice and tone to influence readers.
Will have to wait for the speech to be uploaded in youtube to remove that doubt.Excerpts From her full speech:
At this point I should say that conferences such as these are very useful for us to benchmark ourselves against international practices, but finally we Singaporeans can decide for ourselves what kind of country we want.From ST free story
Brilliant analysis!!!!! *clap clap clap*
(Â… notice the word choice and tone) :
We don't need outside interference, says Sylvia Lim (did she actually said these words)
Silvia should sue ST.... they used the words: "says Sylvia Lim" some more
Any WP people here? Please make this suggestion to her. If she needs money to conduct the suit, ask her to raise funds and I for one, will be happy to contribute to the fund.
Raise enough to cover her own legal costs and to cover the contingency if she loses.
Knowing Singaporeans, if she dares to say that those that contribute, will be paid a share of the award (if she wins)... many will support the cause...
Another clear cut case of propaganda at work... trying to show that WP is against Dr Chee Soon Juan in his effort to involve the international community in condemning the despotic regime.
A regime so steep in self interest, party interests and the interests of one despotic family need to be told off by the international community. -
Winning a General Election is the only way to gauge the sentiments of the people, and ensure that u have their support.
Trying to win International support, and gaining power as a result of it merely makes you a puppet for these international agendas. -
SDP was at the IBA conference...and to read their continued criticisms, visit:Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:Brilliant analysis!!!!! *clap clap clap*
Silvia should sue ST.... they used the words: "says Sylvia Lim" some more
Any WP people here? Please make this suggestion to her. If she needs money to conduct the suit, ask her to raise funds and I for one, will be happy to contribute to the fund.
Raise enough to cover her own legal costs and to cover the contingency if she loses.
Knowing Singaporeans, if she dares to say that those that contribute, will be paid a share of the award (if she wins)... many will support the cause...
Another clear cut case of propaganda at work... trying to show that WP is against Dr Chee Soon Juan in his effort to involve the international community in condemning the despotic regime.
A regime so steep in self interest, party interests and the interests of one despotic family need to be told off by the international community.
http://www.singaporedemocrat.org/articleiba21.html -
It is unfortunate that the Workers' Party Chairman Sylvia Lim feels that Singapore can deal with rule of law issues without support from the international community.
I will say that this is a good political move by WP.
The majority of Singaporeans feel the same way as well about foreign interference.
It is best to play to the tune of public opinion in politics.
What WP needs now is to establish itself as an alternative party to the PAP ruling clique.
Don't make rash moves.
Gain more recruits, grow the strength of the party, get more money to fight the next general elections.
WP will fight from above while SDP will fight from below.
Both have their roles to play.
No good to see SDP quarrel with WP.
This will only delight the PAP ruling clique.
Remember, SDP spread propaganda against the PAP, WP gather votes.
WP will fight from above while SDP will fight from below. -
I applaud Sylvia's comments and stance. IMHO, no amount of foreign support / interference will help if the majority of the citizens are not convinced.
It'll be like a slap on the face of the 66.6%, since they were the ones who voted the ruling party in. I believe alot of them don't need foreigners to tell them what to do.. And since they are the majority, it's up to the alternative parties to convince and convert them, instead of embarrassing them further.
Burma is a good reference for it's recent blatant human rights violation, and the only foreign intervention it got are more sanctions... making life of its people harder... I certainly don't look forward to that happening to Singapore.