Security through liberalisation.
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Do you agree that Singapore's national security interest will one day require liberalisation to be it's sustaining power?
Let's look at it through both traditional and non-traditional notions of national security. -
can we really buy into that ? ..... what works for others may not be simply transplanted here you know ...
we have unique geo-political considerations that many other societies don't have ... that will never change as long as Singapore exists .... to ignore that and swallow wholesale certain abstract concepts of unrestrained liberty and freedom is plain foolishness ....
others have the size and homogenity and the geography to make certain societal choices ... choices which we will never be able to make, we'd have to live with that ... -
Perhaps I failed to mention the key degree of relevance we as a nation have in the context of the international arena.Originally posted by Fatum:can we really buy into that ? ..... what works for others may not be simply transplanted here you know ...
we have unique geo-political considerations that many other societies don't have ... that will never change as long as Singapore exists .... to ignore that and swallow wholesale certain abstract concepts of unrestrained liberty and freedom is plain foolishness ....
others have the size and homogenity and the geography to make certain societal choices ... choices which we will never be able to make, we'd have to live with that ...
Yes, we're very vulnerable. In fact, the only reason why we're still here and why many of us have enjoyed a fairly good life to be able to study and subsequently work abroad is because Singapore has a vital role to play in the international system.
In fact, we're still no.1 in the globalisation charts. However, a policy of surviving on comparative advantages vis-a-vis our competitors is not a sustainable form of governance.
Will our myopia on certain elements of ideology force us to become irrelevant one day?
Liberalisation does not come in one shape or size, it comes in multiple variations. Perhaps we can have a proper academic discussion in this thread. -
My underlying line of debate is , "Singapore's relevance in the international arena contributes greatly to her national security"
This being a theoretical discussion, let's keep this flame free and with an open mind. -
ermmm ... it's not for any term paper is it ? ...Originally posted by LazerLordz:Perhaps I failed to mention the key degree of relevance we as a nation have in the context of the international arena.
Yes, we're very vulnerable. In fact, the only reason why we're still here and why many of us have enjoyed a fairly good life to be able to study and subsequently work abroad is because Singapore has a role to play in the international system.
Will our myopia on certain elements of ideology force us to become irrelevant one day?
Liberalisation does not come in one shape or size, it comes in multiple variations. Perhaps we can have a proper academic discussion in this thread.
jk jk ...
well ... one of the handicaps of our political climate is that what would be discounted as the lunatic leftist liberal hippie vegetarian fringe elsewhere becomes new, novel, and inspiring in Singapore ... like CSJ for instance ....
and, let's not kid ourselves about realpolitiks eh, the only important factor for our continued relevance to the international community would be our continued economic relevance ... that's our eternal marathon ... -
Singapore made ourselves relevant on the world stage only insofar as our ability to provide a place of safety and tranquility - an oasisi - in this region of political, economic and ethnic instability.
When this region - especially with our immediate and main neighbors in Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam and Philippines - flourish and reach the same level of political, economic and ethnic calm and progress, Singapore will have to find a new niche to make ourselves relevant on a new chess game on a new chess board.
Singapore's unique advantage can easily be emulated when more reasonable and dynamic persons take over the helms of our neighboring countries, and with their citizens exposed to being educated in a global environment, it will not be too difficult to find qualified talents in the same vein as our own talents that consider themselves to be Elites.
If one look at the second tier of political and economic leadership in the governments of Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines and Vietnam - they are young and brilliantly educated individuals in their mid-40s and are the brains behind the many policies pronounced by their respective leaders at the Front facing the Citizens.
Give and take another 10 to 20 years, these countries will be infuenced by the push and pulls of the different countries in a ASEAN combined efforts to achieve the declared Regional Goals of economic and political progress from the present status quo.
Singapore has this window of opportunity to develop our political institutions that will make it independent from the influence of any SINGLE POLITICAL ENTITY - be it a Political Party or a Political Personality.
There must be an institutionalised process that is transparent and independent from political influences that give more advantage to any single party over the others.
The citizens of Singapore must be given the same recognition of responsibility and political ability as deserved as Citizens of a declared First World Country - as is the case of the Swiss Citizens, who enjoy political responsibility and respect from the Government.
The Swiss Government DO NOT assume that it has the Right to decide and determine what is good for the Swiss Citizens.
Anything that affects the Swiss Citizens immediate and future political, economic, or social conditions are referred to the Swiss Citizens for their decision in an open and transparent referendum.
The Swiss Citizens will never see a similar Annuitysituation being decided by the Swiss Government and have it forced down their throat as a 'fait accompli'.
Only a self-serving government will beleive that they have a right to decide all that is good and right for the Citizens that put them in office. -
Nah, it's not for a term paper.Originally posted by Fatum:ermmm ... it's not for any term paper is it ? ...
jk jk ...
well ... one of the handicaps of our political climate is that what would be discounted as the lunatic leftist liberal hippie vegetarian fringe elsewhere becomes new, novel, and inspiring in Singapore ... like CSJ for instance ....
and, let's not kid ourselves about realpolitiks eh, the only important factor for our continued relevance to the international community would be our continued economic relevance ... that's our eternal marathon ...
I would agree on economics as the main driving force, however, insofar as economics is paramount, it is only as vital as the fundamentals that underpin our economic attractiveness and the ability to build an atmosphere that is conducive to long-term economic sustainability, namely the growth of institutions that are flexible, proactive and able to work with the key players in the global economic scene.
Chevron's investments in Burma is under scrutiny this week in Congress, and this is one of many issues that plague the notion that money is the sole lubricant of state-corporate friction that may exist.
Values driven economic investment is probably going to rise in the coming decades and we certainly do not hold a monopoly in terms of attractive places to sink funds. For Singapore to rely on foreign investment in greater numbers might eventually be self-defeating if we do not build on our domestic capacity to drive growth.
A culture of greater openness and political liberalisation will help enhance the nature of the domestic industry when the state gets its hands out of all the pies that it has currently been having sticky fingers so far. Image and branding play key roles in our relevance and reputation abroad, and what we have been brought up to think is the right way, may seem to be biting us in our feet increasingly these days. -
okie ... so what about China then, for example ? ... is it a shining example of human liberty or democracy ? ... what of her economic clout then ? ... you're stretching the connection between economics and politics here ... I fail to see the connection between economics and politics ... okie, so what if chevron's investments is being scrutinized by the US congress ? ... so what if they pull out ? ... sinopec moves in then ... what about sudan, darfur ? sure, we get floods of sudanese refugees in canada, sure, the vegetarian leftist hippie fringe on campus organizes talks and slideshows on darfur, but hey, I just saw an ad on the local newspaper for drillers in sudan and the niger delta ... how does C$300k a year grabs you ? ... corporations are not driven by ethics or morales, nor the "political attractiveness" of a particular country, and, in this age of global competition, national laws handicapping corporations do nothing but shoot their own national companies in the foot ... it also doesn't fly, cos there are plenty of other countries that would gladly fill in the vaccuum ... and with the economic clout of the world shifting to asia, it doesn't matter anymore ... pragmatism overrides everything, take for example yahoo ... yahoo is a spent force in china, not because they were party to the arrest of some two bit dissident, but because the chinese people see them as being hamstrung by the US goverment ... google does the same thing, filtering searches and all that in china, (try falungong on google.cn) ... but they are winning, cos they have managed to posture themselves as apolitical ... (but of course, sohu and baidu are the biggest winners, cos you can search for copyrighted stuff easily ...Originally posted by LazerLordz:Nah, it's not for a term paper.
I would agree on economics as the main driving force, however, insofar as economics is paramount, it is only as vital as the fundamentals that underpin our economic attractiveness and the ability to build an atmosphere that is conducive to long-term economic sustainability, namely the growth of institutions that are flexible, proactive and able to work with the key players in the global economic scene.
Chevron's investments in Burma is under scrutiny this week in Congress, and this is one of many issues that plague the notion that money is the sole lubricant of state-corporate friction that may exist.
Values driven economic investment is probably going to rise in the coming decades and we certainly do not hold a monopoly in terms of attractive places to sink funds. For Singapore to rely on foreign investment in greater numbers might eventually be self-defeating if we do not build on our domestic capacity to drive growth.
A culture of greater openness and political liberalisation will help enhance the nature of the domestic industry when the state gets its hands out of all the pies that it has currently been having sticky fingers so far. Image and branding play key roles in our relevance and reputation abroad, and what we have been brought up to think is the right way, may seem to be biting us in our feet increasingly these days.
)
and what do you know or think about our branding abroad ? .... what do you think our branding abroad is ? ... let me tell you ... a few articles by leftist militant liberal reporters is not representative of how singapore is viewed abroad, the kind of exposure we get through certain foreign reporters whenever we hang some wretched drug trafficker is not representative of how we are viewed abroad ... we are still new to this game of thoughts, yes, our press is not completely bias free, thus whenever we read foreign media pieces about our politics, we view it as new, refreshing, novel, inspiring, we read and learn about abstract notions of personal liberty and freedom much brandied about by certain sectors of the foreign press ... but no one really gives a flying fark over here, cos you see and read about such things everywhere everyday ... you read about liberals scandals, you read about conservative scandals, I gave up reading the local newspapers a year after I got here, I got jaded, as have most of the locals, information overload I call it ... people become apathetic, jaded, that's why I say people like CSJ can only survive in a climate like ours, which he has to thank for,cos anywhere else he'd belong to nowhere but the lunatic fringe, and become politically extinct ... we don't have to go far, you think he'll be a viable newsmaker in say, taiwan ? ... in anycase, you'd be surprised by how positive our international image is ... people do not form their opinions solely from what they read from the media alone ... they travel around the region on business, and singapore stands out like an oasis of peace and prosperity in a third world shit hole ... sure, we can't chew gum and we are forced to flush our toilets on the pain of a fine ... but are we run by a military junta ? do we have death squads dragging people away in the dark of the night ? ...
I'm sorry, but I think you'd have to support your statements with more substantial examples to show the links between economics and politics ... -
You seem to have this keen dislike for all things left of the center.
Not saying your points fail to have any validity, but they struck me instantly as quite rightist, not to mention advocating economic and mercantilist priniciples in all primacy..
Basically, I think there are flaws to be found in your premise that economics is the sole arbiter of growth and prosperity.
Sure, China's been developing. At what long-term cost? You have disparities in wages, development and capability gaps opening up with a serious lack of capacity building by the central adminstration across the board.
Any corporation can inject funds, but the main problem today is that too many corporations tend to think far too short than they should. It is not sustainable enough for a corporation to merely invest and ignore the role that it can play in bootstrapping development in more than just the directly linked economic areas of interest for a particular FDI dependant country.
W.r.t your point that the international press is by and large positive, it is only so in areas of economic perspectives and in areas where it suits them to paint a pretty picture. You can't afford to outsource into an area and afford to have bad press about that place splashed over the front page can you. Call me paranoid, or stretching things too far, but there's definitely something to do with spin and branding where we are concerned.
Think about influence on the privately owned press in the States.. they are beholden to do a bit of here there and everywhere now and then.
Staying still never brought about any improvements. In this age, to claim that a particular formula has brought success and that's all that's needed, will only lead to stagnation. -
yes, perhaps you are right ... I am right of center, because I tried out the leftist vegetarian hippie fringe before and found them wanting, more form than substance, ... they see what they wanted to see, and were just rebels trying to find a cause in something, most often they have no idea what they were talking about ... one of those pot heads once told me that he pitied me to have come from an undemocratic country ... I was curious ... and asked him if he knew where Singapore was ... he didn't, it slowly dawned on me that he was actually talking about China ... and no, he didn't know the current president of china either .... that's the kind of lunatic fringers that typified those people ... more form than substance ... but then perhaps it's just me, I was a science major ...Originally posted by LazerLordz:You seem to have this keen dislike for all things left of the center.
Not saying your points fail to have any validity, but they struck me instantly as quite rightist, not to mention advocating economic and mercantilist priniciples in all primacy..
Basically, I think there are flaws to be found in your premise that economics is the sole arbiter of growth and prosperity.
Sure, China's been developing. At what long-term cost? You have disparities in wages, development and capability gaps opening up with a serious lack of capacity building by the central adminstration across the board.
Any corporation can inject funds, but the main problem today is that too many corporations tend to think far too short than they should. It is not sustainable enough for a corporation to merely invest and ignore the role that it can play in bootstrapping development in more than just the directly linked economic areas of interest for a particular FDI dependant country.
W.r.t your point that the international press is by and large positive, it is only so in areas of economic perspectives and in areas where it suits them to paint a pretty picture. You can't afford to outsource into an area and afford to have bad press about that place splashed over the front page can you. Call me paranoid, or stretching things too far, but there's definitely something to do with spin and branding where we are concerned.
Think about influence on the privately owned press in the States.. they are beholden to do a bit of here there and everywhere now and then.
Staying still never brought about any improvements. In this age, to claim that a particular formula has brought success and that's all that's needed, will only lead to stagnation.
I believe in pragmatism, in the good of the people being the highest law ... I also have this deeply oriental desire for peace and stability, and the harmony of the society. That is why I have emphasized time and again the dangers of swallowing wholesale certain liberal abstract notions of personal freedoms etc etc ... simply because people have to be taught about the responsibility that comes with certain things, if ever ... take holland for example, remember van Gogh's stabbing ? or the prophet cartoons ? ... imagine this happening in singapore ...
China ? sure, china's development isn't smooth going, but I see wages disparity, corruption and all that as economic and social problems, not political, I wonder if you have ever talked to any educated chinese before, the country has political subtleties and nuances that are often invisible to the rest of the world (read: biased, occidental minds) ... have you ever surfed chinese forums before ? ... taken a look at their political discussions ? ... it can be more virulent than anything sammyboy's can dish out ... but nothing is done to them, the servers are even hosted in country ! ... I was curious about this, and some PRC enlightened me to some of the subtleties involved; it's alright to complain and whine, infact when the calls get strident enough, the central goverment do take notice, quite a few grafters were caught that way ... but when you organize ... when you bring your complaints abroad ... airing the dirty linen internationally .... things change .... which to me is perfectly acceptable, and a very asian way of doing things ... certain things belongs only to the domain of the "family" and the "family" alone ...
outsourcing eh ? ... okie, so what are the whole world outsourcing low level production to china ? ... ... enough about that, as for the power of the press goes, like I said, very often, because our exposure to the media circus that masquerades as the international press is new, we tend to view what appear in certain columns or articles as representative of another society, don't you suppose, that if the ST is in no way representative of what the singaporean ground feels, it would also be the same for foreign media ? even more so, we have to reconcile our minds to the fact that the foreign media is also in no way representative of the views and the stance of their respective national goverments ... that is what an independent press means, ironically, no ? ... otherwise, doesn't it imply that the press in other countries are somehow "controlled" ? .... go chew on that ...
I wonder if people remember the australian press' coverage of the nyugen druggie hanging ... I followed that avidly, and it left a bad taste in my mouth more than anything else, most of the stuff was sensational tabloid folder, interspersed with commentary from leftists reporters and people with agendas like our very own CSJ, I shall always remember the piece about the chap being hung by the neck until shit flows and his eyes and tongue bulges out ... or how they cornered and entrapped the hang man that was supposed to perform the execution, of how the chap's body being carried in the open to a waiting van by this undertaker's service company got constructed as singapore goverment not giving his body due dignity even after the execution ... what would a thinking man make of all this ? ... or do people just see what they would like to see ? .... or, after reading the varied comments on news.au's forums ... can we continue to see their media's bias as representative of the australian public ? ....
it doesn't matter really ... because the only consequence in this age of boundaryless media ... is that the "truth" gets buried underneath a mountain of opinions and biased drivel ... the internet age did not make the media more powerful ... it only made the whole enterprise loose it's credibility ... you watch ... people like CSJ will become politically extinct once our press and society opens up further ....