Singapore's Light tank.
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It MAY look something like this...
This is the ASCOD, light tank version. u can check it out at
www.army-technology.com -
Originally posted by Shotgun:
how do u know? MIGHT u have seen something like that rolling around LCK?
It [b]MAY look something like this...
This is the ASCOD, light tank version. u can check it out at
www.army-technology.com[/b]
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
Nvermind, at least it looks better than this:
It [b]MAY look something like this...
This is the ASCOD, light tank version. u can check it out at
www.army-technology.com[/b]
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yah...i agree that our new light tank will look like that... bcos the chassis is kinda similar to the bionix... st kinetics had already mentioned that the new light tank would be based on the bionix chassis..
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this new light tank should have the same specs as a normal mbt.. plus being amphibious... that will be really cool ! -
Looks can be deceiving.
Singapore first chose AMX-13 mainly due to its cost & availability
from India and Israel after conflicts in the 50s and 60s.
Also, due to lack of air-transport power, armoured units can only
be moved on land or sea in local soft muddy soil and rainy
conditions along with lack of open terrain in the region.
Hence MBT was, and may still not play a major role in SAF's
ORBAT. Consequently the AMX-13 SM1 Singapore is the largest
operator of this light tank in the world today with over 350 in the
inventory.
SAF probably had difficulty in finding a better design in current
market considering it is a fashion to own MBTs, regardless of
its effectiveness, due to well-known Abram M1A2's success in
the Gulf war. Hence tank was instead upgraded with a new water
cooled, turbocharged Detroit Diesel 6V-53T engine, fully
automotive transmission, electrical system and hydro-pneumatic
suspension system with more reliability with increased operational
range, speed, acceleration and cross-country mobility giving
it smoother ride and power that even beats the latest IFV, Bionix.
However, fast it maybe, the tank, which uses automatic loader with
two revolving, 6-round magazine in the main gun cannot fire on the
move ! Hence the tactics can be more of a shoot and run
than a full-frontal armour assault as commonly envisioned.
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Singapore military strategy and tactic dont really use Tanks as a frontal armour asssult.Such confined light battle tank couldnt take the impact from even an old-fashion anti-tank missile.Originally posted by Gun:Looks can be deceiving.
Singapore first chose AMX-13 mainly due to its cost & availability
from India and Israel after conflicts in the 50s and 60s.
Also, due to lack of air-transport power, armoured units can only
be moved on land or sea in local soft muddy soil and rainy
conditions along with lack of open terrain in the region.
Hence MBT was, and may still not play a major role in SAF's
ORBAT. Consequently the AMX-13 SM1 Singapore is the largest
operator of this light tank in the world today with over 350 in the
inventory.
SAF probably had difficulty in finding a better design in current
market considering it is a fashion to own MBTs, regardless of
its effectiveness, due to well-known Abram M1A2's success in
the Gulf war. Hence tank was instead upgraded with a new water
cooled, turbocharged Detroit Diesel 6V-53T engine, fully
automotive transmission, electrical system and hydro-pneumatic
suspension system with more reliability with increased operational
range, speed, acceleration and cross-country mobility giving
it smoother ride and power that even beats the latest IFV, Bionix.
However, fast it maybe, the tank, which uses automatic loader with
two revolving, 6-round magazine in the main gun cannot fire on the
move ! Hence the tactics can be more of a shoot and run
than a full-frontal armour assault as commonly envisioned.
They can be destroyed,i heck care but i pity those in it.During the national day parade SAF military arsenal drive pass i just dun feel like taking a second look at it.SO "or bit"
at least the bionix is worth a close look 
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IF we have leopard 2 or Merkava 4 he will be nice morale booster.
In the battle field looking at a "shit" Amx-13sm1 armour tank will only demoralise them.Its almost the same theory in the ocean an aircraft carrier will boost their sailors morale,naval personnal knew they have something to look up to and something that could probably ensure them a piece of mind and confidence in the armanda. -
Good points, Gun. Tanks have two basic roles in war:
1. Support the Infantry by breaching fortifications. A tank in this role must be able to:
a. go where the infantry go
b. charge over a trench
c. smash through concertina wire and other obstacles
d. demolish bunkers with direct fire
e. gun down enemy infantry
f. survive fire from Infantry weapons.
2. Anti-tank. A tank in this role must be able to:
a. outmaneuver enemy armor
b. effectively destroy enemy armor with its armament
c. survive fire from enemy armor
The problem is that these two roles conflict. The first role demands a small, light vehicle with numerous smaller weapons (MGs, AGLs, demolition guns), i.e. a light tank. The second demands a heavily armored behemoth with a few powerful weapons (high velocity gun, ATGMs), i.e. a MBT.
The AMX13SM1 is not that bad a tank in the Infantry support role. It is small and powerful enough to squeeze and bash through jungle terrain and be where the infantry are. Its gun is good enough to demolish most field fortifications. It can be fielded in enough numbers to lay down lethal anti-personnel fire with its MGs. Its front armor is thick enough to face enemy infantry. I wouldn't mind having one of these with my platoon in the middle of the jungle.
However, it really really really sucks in the anti-tank role. It is far too lightly armored and its gun is deperately inadequate. It is so bad that it is a joke.
The Infantry support role is more important for combat in our region, due to the terrain and the fact that potential opponents don't possess much armor. Also, the best anti-armor platform is the helicopter, rather than other tanks, even MBTs (and we have Apaches now). However, our choice of light tank should not be SO WEAK against enemy armor.
As long as the new light tank does not sacrifice too much in pursuit of the anti-tank role, it will be good. It needs to be just as powerful and small as AMX13SM1, so it can climb hills, cross streams and squeeze through jungle. It should still have multiple MGs and AGLs, not just a coaxial MG. Whether this can be accomplished while giving it heavier armor and a new 105mm gun is the question.
The Bionix chassis is pretty good for this. It is very compact, in particular very narrow. It's only 20cm (8%) wider than AMX13SM1, though it is 50% heavier! I think that skinny-ness was one of the main design criteria for the Bionix since it stands out so much. The Bionix currently has the same power/weight ratio as the AMX13SM1 but a tank gun will reduce it, so a beefier powerpack will be needed to keep it at 20 hp/ton. The armor protection is already sufficient for a light tank role.
On a completely different note, the best light tank in Vietnam IMHO was probably the M50 Ontos. It had six (!) 106mm RRs, four .50 cal spotting rifles and one 7.62 mm MG. It proved to be the tank that the VC/NVA feared the most. Look at http://ontos.homestead.com/ms3.html -
Which is why we have both the AMX-13 and the Centurion. One for infantry support and the other for taking out enemy armour.
Seriously though, the SAF's armour is really in desperate need of replacement. Both tanks are WWII designs (Centurion in 1944, AMX in1948.) -
Speaking of which, the Tempest isn't that good against enemy armour either. Here are the comparisons between the Centurion Mk13 and the PT-91:
http://www.nasog.net/datasheets/armour/tanks/Centurion_MK_13_MBT.htm
http://www.nasog.net/datasheets/armour/tanks/PT_91_MBT.htm -
Well, from what I know , the isrealis used centurions to destroy T-72s, a design which the PT-91 is based on.Originally posted by Typhoon:Speaking of which, the Tempest isn't that good against enemy armour either. Here are the comparisons between the Centurion Mk13 and the PT-91:
http://www.nasog.net/datasheets/armour/tanks/Centurion_MK_13_MBT.htm
http://www.nasog.net/datasheets/armour/tanks/PT_91_MBT.htm
But on the other hand, the PT-91 is extremely upgraded.
Personally though, the war is most likely going to be fought in the jungle.Do you think those PT-91 could bash throgh it or travel on the muddy ground?
BTW, Malaysia said that its armour could withstand hits from all NATO missiles (like real) -
BTW the Tempest would most likely look like this--the Isreli S'hot MBT
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This is a pic of the PT-91:
guess the apaches were bought just to counter this. -
No one has ever seen the Tempest b4... other than their crews...
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Wah lau.. the PT-91 si beh horrible...
Would scare the living daylights out of our troops...
I take it that those plates on it are reactive armour?
Modern MBTs are perfectly capable of knocking down trees... but an entire jungle I'm not so sure.
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Thats right.You will notice there is some on the Sho't tank too.
Since the tempest is upgraded by the isrealis ,I rekon it is similar to the Sho't. -
the PT-91 boasts laser detection system to counter low-flying AT helicopters so it could be quite dangerous to fly an apache up close to a bunch of PT-91.Originally posted by CenturionMBT:This is a pic of the PT-91:
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/Modern/PT91/PT91_1.jpg
guess the apaches were bought just to counter this.
but i wouldn't be too worried... worse come to worse, aim for its tracks with an 84mm. a stationary tank can't do as much damage as a moving one. -
bro.... u sure??? i can bet with u....although im not from SAR... but i just get to see two of it at 42SAR!! dont believe??? ... and i dont believe it as well... they DIDNT EVEN TRY TO COVER IT!!! just leave that two tanks beside the trainning shelter... i was there coz... recently... some thing jialat happen at ROC... ..... u can check with any of ur friends if they are from the 42SAR.... ask them.... and u will know....Originally posted by Typhoon:No one has ever seen the Tempest b4... other than their crews... -
.... opsss and the navy LST guyz also see that tanks b4 lah.... just check with those guyz (navy seaman and frogman) HOW MANY TIME THEY HAVE ESCORT those tanks to ROC!!! ..........Originally posted by Typhoon:No one has ever seen the Tempest b4... other than their crews... -
I guess we can all agree that
1. we need a new light tank to replace the SM1. The light tank has to at least have the following capabilities:
a. 105 mm low-recoil, high velocity main gun (with optional autoloader).
b. Thermal Imager, advance fire-control system
c. 2 axis stabalised for both the sights and the main gun.
d. (optional). Independent Commander Sight/TV (Thermal) incorporating a hunter-killer mode.
e. Defensive aid system including a laser warning device and probably IR warners.
SAF also need to replace or upgrade the Centurions. My personal opinions are that the the SAF should consider the following options:
1. Replace with CV90-120T
2. Upgrade the Centurions with a new CTG 120mm gun, a new turret, upgraded fire-control system, new engine and automotive systems such as suspensions, automatic gears, etc to a standard somewhat like the South African Olifant 2B.
3. Replace with the M60-2000 (M60 chassis with M1 turret with 120mm main gun).
4. French Leclerc (diet version - to drop it down to just over 40 tons). -
I've seem the centurion too during my bmt days, I was on a bus somewhere in lim chu kang area and I happen to saw a mbt on a trailer. I knew its not a amx at 1st look. I thought tat perhaps the saf was evaulating a new tank replacement. I ask a fren who was in armour and he dare not tell me anything at tat time. An officer from armour came for recruitment talk and he mentioned tat saf got other tanks he can't speak openly. Later the bionix was introduced and I tot he was talking about it. However I deduced tat wat I saw was not a bionix due to the turrent design. I forgot about the incident until a year after the incident when I was in mph and I happened to browse a JANES armour book. I remember the tracks of the mbt I saw and so I slowly flip thru page by page till I found the centurion. And it happens to list singapore as its operator. I found my answer! recently I spoke to my fren about the centurion and he was more willing to tell me about it.
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My fren told me that there were two types of centurion in s'pore. One was from india and older model. another was from sweden or israel. The latter model is newer with better features. He told me that NSF/Men are not allowed to know that such tanks exists in S'pore an only Regulars are allowed to train in them. During an exercise at ROC during his NS days, he managed to find a centurion sitting around with the driver hatch unlock. He and his frens climbed inside and they found that it was spacious compare to the AMX-13. He called it a luxury. They were almost caught in the act and were lucky to escape.
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What do you mean that the the SM1 gun is inadequate? You mean it doesn't penetrate well even with the Sabot rounds or it is not stabalised for fire on the move?Originally posted by dkhoo:Good points, Gun. Tanks have two basic roles in war:
[snip]
The AMX13SM1 is not that bad a tank in the Infantry support role. It is small and powerful enough to squeeze and bash through jungle terrain and be where the infantry are. Its gun is good enough to demolish most field fortifications. It can be fielded in enough numbers to lay down lethal anti-personnel fire with its MGs. Its front armor is thick enough to face enemy infantry. I wouldn't mind having one of these with my platoon in the middle of the jungle.
However, it really really really sucks in the anti-tank role. It is far too lightly armored and its gun is deperately inadequate. It is so bad that it is a joke.
[snip]
Well, I am wondering why ST Kinetic and SAF can't come up with a quick interim solution to upgrade some with a 105mm stablised gun. Oh I know some of you guys might say that the recoil is too great... but nowadays there are a couple of low recoil L7 guns out there....
BTW, check out the Austrian SK-105 Kurassier series especially A3 version, which uses the AMX-13 FL-11/FL-13 turret, armed with a 105mm gun, and its gross weight is in the 17 to 18 ton region - the same as AMX-13. Apparent the SK-105 sold quite to Brazil, Argentina to name a few...
References:
http://www.pmulcahy.com/austrian_light_combat_vehicles.html
http://www.nasog.net/datasheets/armour/tanks/Steyr_SK_105_Light_Tank.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/sk-105.htm
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Laser Detection system to counter apache? Eh, trust me, the apache's won't be in much danger due to that. U know that a laser designator is pin pointed on ur tank, what can u do? Out run the missile? Out turn the missile? Decoy the missile?
When something like that happens, pray for cover, big rocks, or "ANOTHER" tank. Either that, turn head on and pray ur frontal armor is as capable as the manufacturer's boast.
Armor hasn't really evolved much since world war 2. As in the strategem. Some think of it as a land battleship, meant to engage enemy tanks. Others use it to make quick daring attacks at the enemy's weak points. Either way, Singapore's arsenal for both these roles really need an upgrade.
If ASCOD can design a version of their mult-use chassis, so can ST with the bionix. Just have to wait n see. -
Actually, the local defence industry had put money into development and production of advanced ATGM system.Originally posted by Shotgun:Laser Detection system to counter apache? ... Either way, Singapore's arsenal for both these roles really need an upgrade.
If ASCOD can design a version of their mult-use chassis, so can ST with the bionix. Just have to wait n see.
One publicised e.g is the Spike which is a joint developement between Israel and Singapore.
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"The Spike family includes the Gill and the Spike missiles and is currently in production and in service with the Israeli Defence Force and with the Singapore Armed Forces" Source,
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/gill/
The Spike can be fully fire-&-forget guided by passive IIR or
by fibre optic link. It is armed with tandem warhead to defeat
reactive armours. Notice how compact it is for such system and
can be fire from inside an HDB room without injuring the operators.
Pic below is a British unit undergoing evaluation trial on the missile,
which will be decided by end of 2002.
As the the Apache's Hellfire, SAF is acquiring the LongBow version,
which uses millimeter-wavelength radar guidance rather than laser
designation alone. So spoofing or detecting can be a very difficult
job for any tank, not even the latest PT-91.