Is it legal for government to approve their own salaries?
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We all know that parliament is supreme in that it has the power to pass laws to govern the country.
However when it comes to paying Ministers; and MPs' own salaries, bonuses and life long pension from the public funds do they have the same right to put up any such motions or benchmarking for approval by their own members.
In the case of NKF's Durai using his power to pay himself and his subordinates peanut salaries even with the unfailing support and sanction by government patron Mrs. Goh Chok Tong the court obviously has censored the board and Durai for such self-reward as conflict and improper conduct.
Our leaders are trustees of public funds. They have apparently even without voting given themselves self-rewards beyond their originally contracted salaries and payments which were essentially tied to the salary structures of the public service.
The ministers have therefore committed a serious error by introducing such motions and have their own members to approve such rewards.
Even if there is voting the votes may be declared null and void by the court.
Citizens have the right to check on such wrong doings They are not being jealous as our politicians have been calling the people. What is immoral and not right cannot be made right by propagandas.
Even PM Lee felt so embarrassed lately with people's strong objections to such self-writing of ministers' own pay cheques that in order to retain a sense of propriety and morality to govern he had decided to donate his own increments to charity.
If such salaries and bonuses and life pensions were taken in this manner sooner or later they will have to be adjudged by the court and the monies so taken may have to be returned to the people.
The proper thing for our leaders to do is to put forward such self-rewards as manifestos of the party in the election and specifically have the votes taken based on such public sanction.
Two wrongs do not make a right so the fact that when a mistake has been made it will not be right to allege that just because the ministers and MPs have won the election they could write their own pay cheques or approve their own bonuses or life pension as they like. -
As long as WP cannot attract more good people like Sylvia,
I am confident of status quo. -
For other democractic nations, it is illegal. For Singapore, it is legal. Lee's decision is final. End of story.
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Better ask the French and the Irish..they just increased their pay alsoOriginally posted by Spartans:For other democractic nations, it is illegal. For Singapore, it is legal. Lee's decision is final. End of story.
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Robert Teh,
Seriously speaking, since you have so much issues and have so much ideals why don't you consider joining an opposition party, if you haven't already. Of course i'm not asking to to kamikaze and join SDP though. -
Let us see their Hansard or Gazette will you.Originally posted by kramnave:Better ask the French and the Irish..they just increased their pay also -
If you can find the hansard then good for you lah...i'm just stating a fact that they did, it was reported in the news and internet also can find those reports.Originally posted by robertteh:Let us see their Hansard or Gazette will you. -
Must anyone be asked to join a party just because of speaking up on wrong doings or wrong policies? I thought the ministers have been lamenting a lot about people and youths having no view or being apathetic. So which is the problem now - having an apathetic people like Li Ao is saying about Singaporeans or denying problems in this manner.Originally posted by kramnave:Robert Teh,
Seriously speaking, since you have so much issues and have so much ideals why don't you consider joining an opposition party, if you haven't already. Of course i'm not asking to to kamikaze and join SDP though.
The proper thing to do is for ministers to change mindset first before advising people to do the same. Ministers should serve the people with honesty and integrity and not demand to be paid any amount of salaries out of jealously of any CEOs in the private sector and approve their own salaries like winning a public lottery without going through draw of luck. -
I'm not saying that you must...i'm just suggesting since they truly need people and since you seriously have ideals and concerns. If people who have serious concerns and ideals don't join then who join ? Those that want power and money ?Originally posted by robertteh:Must anyone be asked to join a party just because of speaking up on wrong doings or wrong policies? I thought the ministers have been lamenting a lot about people and youths having no view or being apathetic. So which is the problem now - having an apathetic people like Li Ao is saying about Singaporeans or denying problems in this manner.
The proper thing to do is for ministers to change mindset first before advising people to do the same. Ministers should serve the people with honesty and integrity and not demand to be paid any amount of salaries out of jealously of any CEOs in the private sector and approve their own salaries like winning a public lottery without going through draw of luck. -
I hate to think what would happen if everybody that has issues and ideals join an opposition party.Originally posted by kramnave:Robert Teh,
Seriously speaking, since you have so much issues and have so much ideals why don't you consider joining an opposition party, if you haven't already. Of course i'm not asking to to kamikaze and join SDP though.
We will be up to our necks with politicians, some just voice out concerns in Speaker's Corner to enlighten the less enlightened Singaporeans.
I suppose since you defend the ruling P4P party so much, you must be a politician. -
It take much more than ideals and concerns to join opposition party. It take a lot of courage and sacrifice to do so, knowing that the ruling party will do whatever possible to crush you.
I think voicing your opinion in forum is a good start. As least it let more people know about the political situation in SG apart from the local media. -
If everybody that has issues and ideals join the opposition party, then they have more manpower and can contest more seats...but don't lose the depositOriginally posted by maurizio13:I hate to think what would happen if everybody that has issues and ideals join an opposition party.
We will be up to our necks with politicians, some just voice out concerns in Speaker's Corner to enlighten the less enlightened Singaporeans.
I suppose since you defend the ruling P4P party so much, you must be a politician.
.
Sometimes people say things that are untrue and i believe so, why shouldn't offer my views ? Further, i may ask questions that may seem like a defence but isn't it good to evaluate both sides of the argument before coming to a conclusion ? What good is a discussion if its purely one-sided ? Its as good as grouping together and wallowing in self-pity.
I have been called derogatory terms like "ass-sniffer", "pap dog" etc for offering some defence and asking some questions. Does it mean that everything PAP does is wrong ? Cannot be right ?
Whats wrong with offering some balance to a heavily biased forum ? Doesn't mean that i'm a die hard PAP fan..i can side with WP too.. -
Originally posted by maurizio13:I hate to think what would happen if everybody that has issues and ideals join an opposition party.
We will be up to our necks with politicians, some just voice out concerns in Speaker's Corner to enlighten the less enlightened Singaporeans.
I suppose since you defend the ruling P4P party so much, you must be a politician. -
False, WP is doing fine.Originally posted by royston_ang:It take much more than ideals and concerns to join opposition party. It take a lot of courage and sacrifice to do so, knowing that the ruling party will do whatever possible to crush you.
I think voicing your opinion in forum is a good start. As least it let more people know about the political situation in SG apart from the local media. -
WP is doing fine cause even the WP chief don't dare to challenge PAP directly.Originally posted by kramnave:False, WP is doing fine.
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False. They have raised issues in parliament. What they don't do is mount accusations that can't be substantiated.Originally posted by royston_ang:WP is doing fine cause even the WP chief don't dare to challenge PAP directly. -
When we questioned the policy of ministers' approving their own pays and bonuses as wrong we have actually substantiated what we said with logics and arguments and facts. Clearly such self-rewards by the ministers involve a conflict of interest in the exercise of power and can be set aside as null and void in any court of law.Originally posted by kramnave:False, WP is doing fine.
Have you done so with similar substantiation of your views claimed to be necessary to counter bias to reach better conclusion. All I am seeing so far is just your one-line denial without any facts or substantiation. -
I haven't really explored on whether its right or wrong thats why i refrained from directly answering your question. I was just responding to spartan who said it is illegal in other democratic countries. I was just offering the example of France and Ireland.Originally posted by robertteh:When we questioned the policy of ministers' approving their own pays and bonuses as wrong we have actually substantiated what we said with logics and arguments and facts. Clearly such self-rewards by the ministers involve a conflict of interest in the exercise of power and can be set aside as null and void in any court of law.
Have you done so with similar substantiation of your views claimed to be necessary to counter bias to reach better conclusion. All I am seeing so far is just your one-line denial without any facts or substantiation. -
If you make a claim that you are here to counter views of people so as to balance them to reach better conclusion then be prepared to be shown where you have failed to justify such countering with facts and substance. Be honest in your views and opinions if you want to take a higher custodian role to correct people's views.Originally posted by kramnave:I haven't really explored on whether its right or wrong thats why i refrained from directly answering your question. I was just responding to spartan who said it is illegal in other democratic countries. I was just offering the example of France and Ireland. -
What evidence you want ? If you read the Straits Times or even bothered with news on the internet then you would have known that.Originally posted by robertteh:If you make a claim that you are here to counter views of people so as to balance them to reach better conclusion then be prepared to be shown where you have failed to justify such countering with facts and substance. Be honest in your views and opinions if you want to take a higher custodian role to correct people's views.
Canadian Pay Hike
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=ea318a9c-4e24-4556-847e-2c162a7f1d36
Irish Pay Hike
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1026/1193348363404.html
Sarkozy Pay Hike
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22681188-2703,00.html -
Report on Canada Parliament's approval of their PM's, Ministers' and MPs' salaries and other perks.
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Raise boosts MPs' base salary to $150,800
Extra earnings on top; critics blast increase as too secretive
Tim Naumetz, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Wednesday, April 18, 2007
MPs have quietly pocketed a $3,100 pay hike, which takes their annual base salary to $150,800.
The automatic April 1 increase, based on private-sector settlements, also applies to separate salaries for extra duties -- jobs ranging from committee vice-chairman up to prime minister.
MPs also get a $22,000 yearly expense allowance, primarily for living costs in Ottawa, and 64 free return airline tickets each year to share with their partners and dependants.
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NDP MP Peter Stoffer said it is ironic that MPs were cashing their bigger paycheques while Parliament was set to legislate striking CN employees back to work.
"It's a bit hypocritical," said Mr. Stoffer.
The increase brings Prime Minister Stephen Harper's annual pay to $301,600.
His salary is low compared to the remuneration for bank presidents and senior executive officers in the private sector, but as Mr. Harper has joked, he lives in the best public housing in the country at rent-free 24 Sussex Drive.
Liberal MP Rodger Cuzner said he believes most MPs earn their wages and are busy with work in Ottawa as well as their ridings.
He defended the CN back-to-work legislation, saying he supports it because rail transportation is "an essential service."
The Canadian Taxpayers' Federation said it supports the level of salaries MPs earn, but believes Parliament should be more transparent about pay rates and perks.
No news releases are issued announcing the increases.
"Nobody would argue we should be paying them peanuts," said the federation's national research director, Adam Taylor. "We're more critical about the lack of openness displaying this stuff."
Commons Speaker Peter Milliken yesterday appeared at the Commons procedure and House affairs committee to explain details of a $10-million increase in the House budget to $410.5 million for the 2007-08 fiscal year.
Ontario Premier David McGuinty has a salary of $196,620. Ontario MPPs now earn $110,775 after controversial raises that took effect this year.
U.S. President George W. Bush, by comparison, is paid $400,000 annually, but also has a bigger government house than Mr. Harper. Members of Congress in Washington are paid $165,000 a year.
The U.S. congressional calendars, however, suggest senators and representatives are in session longer each year than Canadian MPs, who have almost five months of break during the year.
What An MP Can Earn on Top of Their Salary
Prime minister: $150,800
Minister: $72,200
Minister of state: $72,200
Commons Speaker: $72,200
Leader of the Opposition: $72,200
Leaders of other parties: $51,400
Whip: $27,200
Committee chair: $10,700
Committee vice-chair: $5,500
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Very good Mr. Kramnave for the source. (as reproduced above) This is a good piece of evidence which confirms once and for all beyond all doubts that our PM at S$2,500,000.00 pa is grossly overpaid.
From this report it is clear that there is a lot of unhappiness (not necessarily because Canadian politicians lack the political daring and courage to face the ministers' pay issue squarely as put it by MM Lee) by their countrymen and parliamentarians with the ministers' and MPs' pay increases calling it hypocrisy and lack of openness in increasing their own ministers and MPs; salaries while denying their own countrymen of due wage increases.
There is no notes provided to show how their motion was introduced and whether the Canadian constitution contains a provision for such self-approval of their own salaries.
We are more than convinced now by such evidence that for a small country like the little red dot it is much easier to govern and therefore our PM should be paid at most up to say 2/3 of Canada PM's gross pay of C$301,600.00 pa) assuming our PM is extremely talented and competent.
On top of our PM's salary of S$2,500,000.00 pa he would be paid a few months bonuses and at least S$1,500,000.00 pa in life pension so his total gross salary at the end of the day would be very much higher than S$4,500,000.00 pa.
Let our PM and Ministers be more accountable and not engage in such conflict of interest in exercise of their power and refer their additional pay packages and other packages over the contracted figures based on public service structure originally adopted back in 1970s including all the bonuses and life pension to the people in the party manifesto in the next election for sanction or referendum by the citizens.
In the same report reference has been made to US President's salary which was only US$400,000.00 for running a more onerous superpower of very much larger population and size. So it is not true that our PM and MPs are doing a more responsible or more talented job and have to be paid much higher than equivalents or counterparts in US or Canada. -
I do not have an answer to the topic you have posted but i have countered Spartan's argument that it is illegal in other democratic countries..thats all i wanted to do..so please people.stop attacking me in future
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We are only the citizens and not the government who could attack you with anything. If you leave well alone and let people express their true feeling and views there will be nothing to worry about.Originally posted by kramnave:I do not have an answer to the topic you have posted but i have countered Spartan's argument that it is illegal in other democratic countries..thats all i wanted to do..so please people.stop attacking me in future -
I'm only a citizen and not the government, I'm not even a moderator. Thus i can't stop people from expressing their true feelings.Originally posted by robertteh:We are only the citizens and not the government who could attack you with anything. If you leave well alone and let people express their true feeling and views there will be nothing to worry about. -
Is it legal? You can thank those morons who disregard the fundamental democratic processes enshrined in the Constitution as being peripheral for empowering the despots to do as they deem fit.