Does Sporean care about his citizen rights?
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1, 2, and 3 are easier said than done. If you possess the above, very likely you would not have much problem surviving in Singapore anyway.Originally posted by fymk:Hey the PAP can teach you valuable lessons - you just have to see it in a different perspective to understand it properly :
1. Skills shortages : get a skill that is in worldwide demand and have global mobility for yourself.
2. Foreign talents : be a foreign talent elsewhere and gleam the FT benefits in another country . If anyone calls you a "quiter" , just tell them to look at the "foreign quiters" in Singapore.
3. Globalisation and wages : other countries are willing to fish for people with experience and willing to pay competitive (higher, not lower) rates if you are willing to take a step towards globalising yourself.
That also goes for the "get out of your comfort zone" lesson. -
Not if you are a nurse in Singapore. The pay is low , the work is hard. The working days are 6 day weeks while in Australia - 5 day week.Originally posted by royston_ang:1, 2, and 3 are easier said than done. If you possess the above, very likely you would not have much problem surviving in Singapore anyway.
Do you want me to tell you how much Dubai pays their nurses, the US, the UK or Australia? I have friends who migrated out and some went to Dubai for 2-3 years to earn money to pay off their mortgages.
It is easier to earn 90k as a year 4 nurse, in Australia doing overtime shifts and extra casual work. Dubai gives tax free income of USD 60-75k plus accomodation. No ward nurse in Singapore will earn that much . I already earnt more than a senior registered nurse with 10 years experience in Singapore just being a year 3 nurse in Australia. That is after taxation.
That is how willing you must be to move out globally. Even me - I dared to move to Australia but just not to work in Dubai. -
Ok, maybe for the nurse (which happen to be in demand). Too bad I am not.
It's hard to predict what skill set will be in demand next. While you are investing your time in acquiring the next hottest skill (which may take years), it may have already lose it demand. -
To be fair, the irony of this whole notion is twofold and the two groups must be considered separately to have any sensible discussion (regardless of your stance on this issue). It surely is no rocket science that one realizes skilled labour and unskilled labour are two completely separate entities belonging to two different worlds.Originally posted by eagle:in addition, why would you want complain about foreigners if you cannot compete with them and win? This happens in many countries in the world. It is the basics: the best and the cheapest win.
Skilled labour that is widely coveted (ie. athletes, entertainers, senior management, professionals, executives) very often possess certain expertise and skills which you can't find in an average Joe. Fair enough, these people - who are incidentally also the greatest beneficiaries of globalization - should be commensurated competitively for the expertise they offer which is in short supply in a labour pool. In addition, it certainly makes sense to pay them wages befitting their skill sets. More importantly, it's certainly not this group of foreigners whom the worldwide hordes of anti-globalization protestors are aggrieved with.
Unskilled labour, on the other hand, very often provides a source of labour that is widely available that the plane Janes are well capable of undertaking. While even the most developed countries implement legislations and policies to facilitate the hiring of such workers, they are often limited to doing so after exhausting its local supply of unskilled labour (as a matter of fact, most of those from the former Eastern bloc working in the developed EU countries are hired on short-term basis). In addition, by enacting minimum wage legislations, such countries often seek to deter the extensive hiring of foreign unskilled labour to ensure that employers, even if given a choice, see no economic sense to do so at the expense of its local labourers. That, in essence, is the crux of the issue surrounding the whole notion of hiring foreign unskilled labour (it is worth noting unskilled here does not necessarily refer to illiterates; rather, it's more a matter of whether the local labour pool available is capable of performing the same task). Without sensible policies in place to protect the interests of the locals, why should any commercial entity - whose sole existence conforms with and adheres to economic principles - increase its labour expenses by hiring locals over their cheaper foreign counterparts? This issue is grossly compounded by this regime through its extensively generous legislations and policies that actually support (instead of limit) the hiring of such cheap unskilled labour.
There are actually some economic dissertations on such issues suggesting models like those adopted by this regime, while beneficial in the short term, is unsustainable in the long run. Obviously, the fact most residents and citizens of this regime (especially the unskilled labour force) are unaware and completely nonchalant about issues like minimum wage or the role of active trade unions with regard to safeguarding their interests would only serve to further advance the interests of this fascist regime.
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Nursing is the only skill set I have seen so far that has a dire shortage everywhere in developed and developing countries. Even the africans are begging the developed nations to not "steal" their nurses. WHO had to actually make a formal request on their behalf to other countries.Originally posted by royston_ang:Ok, maybe for the nurse (which happen to be in demand). Too bad I am not.
It's hard to predict what skill set will be in demand next. While you are investing your time in acquiring the next hottest skill (which may take years), it may have already lose it demand.
Another one is actuarial science because it is hard for anyone to pass their exams.
The third is tradeskills - non university skills - simply because no one wants to do the dirty work.
The fourth are medical specialists - it is hard to train a doctor in a specialty and to retain doctors there because of the professional indemnity costs. -
With the greatest respect, your logic makes as much sense as the despots' justification for their wage demands.Originally posted by In_Between_Days:The problem is SG is a small country...there's only so much you can do...
SG has no natural resources...so it has to survive on FTs...and foreign investments...
Moreover coupled with the increasing population & limited land space i fear SG may end up being like HK or even worst...probably not now...but in future...
If SM Goh is already voicing concerns...i think it's time to start worrying...
Honestly i do not know where its all gonna end...
If you would look beyond the propaganda mouthpieces dished out by this regime and scrutinised the successes of the Nordic countries, Iceland, Luxembourg or even HK (these countries who are in one way or another face the same constraints as Singapore if not worse), you wouldn't be surprised this regime is hardly the success story others are striving to emulate. -
Basically Singapore's FT policy is just plugging one small hole without plugging the other big hole of local skill drainage and training. It does not value its skilled and experienced workers who can teach the next generation. It will have a flow on effect. Instead it tells older experienced workers to go work at macdonalds or be cleaners after they teach the foreigners how to do work.
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It's all fun and games till you realise the situation can be reversed, isn't it? You place the blame on foreigners for driving down local wage, then move over to another country to do exactly the same thing.Originally posted by fymk:Not if you are a nurse in Singapore. The pay is low , the work is hard. The working days are 6 day weeks while in Australia - 5 day week.
Do you want me to tell you how much Dubai pays their nurses, the US, the UK or Australia? I have friends who migrated out and some went to Dubai for 2-3 years to earn money to pay off their mortgages.
It is easier to earn 90k as a year 4 nurse, in Australia doing overtime shifts and extra casual work. Dubai gives tax free income of USD 60-75k plus accomodation. No ward nurse in Singapore will earn that much . I already earnt more than a senior registered nurse with 10 years experience in Singapore just being a year 3 nurse in Australia. That is after taxation.
That is how willing you must be to move out globally. Even me - I dared to move to Australia but just not to work in Dubai.
Not blaming you, but this foreign talent bashing has to stop. We claim to hate monopolies, but insist on retaining our labour cartel(all locals). Oh it's considered and achievement if you get a great paying job overseas, but it's at the same time disgusting how foreign workers here get our jobs?
Quit going on and on about how they're stealing your jobs. They sacrificed many things to get here. They deserve the jobs if they can do it better than you do. Before you complain, ask yourself if you're willing to do the same, forsaking friends and family and uprooting yourself to work in an unfamiliar environment. If you are, why are you still here? And if you tell me it's because you have no money, you need to be slapped. -
Originally posted by deathbait:It's all fun and games till you realise the situation can be reversed, isn't it? You place the blame on foreigners for driving down local wage, then move over to another country to do exactly the same thing.
HAHAHHA .
Have you not read Walesa's piece? I earn the same amount as the locals do. I do not undercut.
I have a skill and the experience - hey don't blame me if they are willing to pay more for it than Singapore.
Been overseas to work yet? Doubt you have been. The unions are strong in Australia. Go read what unions actually do.
Australia has a policy that states very clearly that unless they cannot find the labor in Australia - the employers are able to employ foreign workers. Those countries I stated are not gonna employ a foreigner at a local's expense.
Singaporean government policies on FT is different to the point of encouraging companies to employ a foreigner at a local's expense. Period.
Not blaming you, but this foreign talent bashing has to stop. We claim to hate monopolies, but insist on retaining our labour cartel(all locals). Oh it's considered and achievement if you get a great paying job overseas, but it's at the same time disgusting how foreign workers here get our jobs?
It is not considered an achievement . It is considered brave to venture to new settings. How many have the guts to do that?
Hey tell me one thing - which would an intelligent person choose if they are not tied down? A better paying job with better career prospects OR a crap paying job with no prospect at all after you turn 40? I would be interested to know your view.
Quit going on and on about how they're stealing your jobs. They sacrificed many things to get here. They deserve the jobs if they can do it better than you do. Before you complain, ask yourself if you're willing to do the same, forsaking friends and family and uprooting yourself to work in an unfamiliar environment. If you are, why are you still here? And if you tell me it's because you have no money, you need to be slapped.
I already left.
Better? Doubt that - most have the jobs because they are cheaper and Singapore is a stepping stone to Australia/UK/Europe/USA .
The ones who get paid the million dollar handshake don't stay around for long. On occasion, some will venture from Europe , USA or Australia to come and stay in Asia for bragging rights - Singapore makes a nice temporary hotel for them.
If FTs are greater than Singaporeans , tell me how many olympic medals have Singapore's first class imports recently obtained while in Singapore since the FT policy ? 0. At least a Singaporean won it and did he get recognition ? yes.....a few decades later.
How many international scientific breakthrough did an FT made while in Singapore since the FT policy? 0.
How many international artistic contributions did an FT made while in Singapore since the FT policy? 0 AGAIN.
So now 0+0+0 = zilch ,zero , nada, nothing.
For the purposes of FT - we are not including permanent residents or Singapore citizens.
For the purposes of FT - we are not bringing foreign laborers , i.e. construction workers/maids ,who do menial work - However I do recognise their unrecognised contribution in building Singapore or making the lives of some Singaporeans better. -
Wow, want to slap people just cos people have no money!?Originally posted by deathbait:.... And if you tell me it's because you have no money, you need to be slapped.
About what those who are supposed to have gone to school but unable to understand simple English? Maybe their parents should ask for a refund of all those money spent on their education. -
Then we should outsource our govt?Originally posted by the Bear:well, that's happening everywhere in the world..
they will outsource to the cheapest possible vendor which can satisfy their specs...
and in order to get the contract, the vendor will squeeze his own people...
that's what you get in a free market... -
CEO of Singapore has a nice ring to it.Originally posted by pearlie27:Then we should outsource our govt?
All Singaporeans are shareholders and a majority vote from everyone determines if the CEO should be given the kick or take a pay cut when he does not perform or fail to pay out the dividends to Singaporeans. -
Can't agree any less but didn't the old man said that 80% of Singaporean can't afford to 'quit'?Originally posted by fymk:Hey the PAP can teach you valuable lessons - you just have to see it in a different perspective to understand it properly :
1. Skills shortages : get a skill that is in worldwide demand and have global mobility for yourself.
2. Foreign talents : be a foreign talent elsewhere and gleam the FT benefits in another country . If anyone calls you a "quiter" , just tell them to look at the "foreign quiters" in Singapore.
3. Globalisation and wages : other countries are willing to fish for people with experience and willing to pay competitive (higher, not lower) rates if you are willing to take a step towards globalising yourself.
That also goes for the "get out of your comfort zone" lesson. -
His government also said those Singaporeans who quit are going to be second class citizens.Originally posted by pearlie27:Can't agree any less but didn't the old man said that 80% of Singaporean can't afford to 'quit'?
Then the former PM Goh's wife also called the salary of Durai peanuts.
I wonder how many Singaporeans can afford Durai type of peanuts..... -
I just want to know where I can sign up to be classified a 'quitter'
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Before you quit the Corporation of Singapore, you have to sign up with another Corporation of your choice. The sign up fees will differ between corporations and due to a popular demand, some may have a long queue.Originally posted by Demonight:I just want to know where I can sign up to be classified a 'quitter'
These sign up fees will be your initial investment foray and anything you earn is commission minus obligatory tokens of appreciation. Some corporations may offer free medical, education and income protection benefits in exchange for those tokens.
Prior to them confirming your offer, you have to undergo a background and medical check as well as a thorough financial assessment. The medical check is to ensure that you are able to work to the benefit of your new corporation. To facilitate an efficient fast tracking of your check in the Corporation that you are leaving, you would be well advised to tick anything non offensive.
Acceptance is slow due to popular demand. Sometimes you will have to deal with the Human resource department of the corporation. I strongly encourage a polite tone as some egos may make life difficult for the intake approval. -
Noted. I shall endeavour to eat humble pie, improve my standing and say only sweet nothings to my prospective employers.Originally posted by fymk:Before you quit the Corporation of Singapore, you have to sign up with another Corporation of your choice. The sign up fees will differ between corporations and due to a popular demand, some may have a long queue.
These sign up fees will be your initial investment foray and anything you earn is commission minus obligatory tokens of appreciation. Some corporations may offer free medical, education and income protection benefits in exchange for those tokens.
Prior to them confirming your offer, you have to undergo a background and medical check as well as a thorough financial assessment. The medical check is to ensure that you are able to work to the benefit of your new corporation. To facilitate an efficient fast tracking of your check in the Corporation that you are leaving, you would be well advised to tick anything non offensive.
Acceptance is slow due to popular demand. Sometimes you will have to deal with the Human resource department of the corporation. I strongly encourage a polite tone as some egos may make life difficult for the intake approval. -
First of all, pls quote better. I had a hard time reading that chunk of rubbish you just wrote.Originally posted by fymk:
quote:Originally posted by deathbait:
It's all fun and games till you realise the situation can be reversed, isn't it? You place the blame on foreigners for driving down local wage, then move over to another country to do exactly the same thing.
HAHAHHA .
Have you not read Walesa's piece? I earn the same amount as the locals do. I do not undercut.
I have a skill and the experience - hey don't blame me if they are willing to pay more for it than Singapore.
Been overseas to work yet? Doubt you have been. The unions are strong in Australia. Go read what unions actually do.
Australia has a policy that states very clearly that unless they cannot find the labor in Australia - the employers are able to employ foreign workers. Those countries I stated are not gonna employ a foreigner at a local's expense.
Singaporean government policies on FT is different to the point of encouraging companies to employ a foreigner at a local's expense. Period.
Not blaming you, but this foreign talent bashing has to stop. We claim to hate monopolies, but insist on retaining our labour cartel(all locals). Oh it's considered and achievement if you get a great paying job overseas, but it's at the same time disgusting how foreign workers here get our jobs?
It is not considered an achievement . It is considered brave to venture to new settings. How many have the guts to do that?
Hey tell me one thing - which would an intelligent person choose if they are not tied down? A better paying job with better career prospects OR a crap paying job with no prospect at all after you turn 40? I would be interested to know your view.
Quit going on and on about how they're stealing your jobs. They sacrificed many things to get here. They deserve the jobs if they can do it better than you do. Before you complain, ask yourself if you're willing to do the same, forsaking friends and family and uprooting yourself to work in an unfamiliar environment. If you are, why are you still here? And if you tell me it's because you have no money, you need to be slapped.
I already left.
Better? Doubt that - most have the jobs because they are cheaper and Singapore is a stepping stone to Australia/UK/Europe/USA .
The ones who get paid the million dollar handshake don't stay around for long. On occasion, some will venture from Europe , USA or Australia to come and stay in Asia for bragging rights - Singapore makes a nice temporary hotel for them.
If FTs are greater than Singaporeans , tell me how many olympic medals have Singapore's first class imports recently obtained while in Singapore since the FT policy ? 0. At least a Singaporean won it and did he get recognition ? yes.....a few decades later.
How many international scientific breakthrough did an FT made while in Singapore since the FT policy? 0.
How many international artistic contributions did an FT made while in Singapore since the FT policy? 0 AGAIN.
So now 0+0+0 = zilch ,zero , nada, nothing.
For the purposes of FT - we are not including permanent residents or Singapore citizens.
For the purposes of FT - we are not bringing foreign laborers , i.e. construction workers/maids ,who do menial work - However I do recognise their unrecognised contribution in building Singapore or making the lives of some Singaporeans better.
What, you don't cut wages due to your presence? Why do you think there are unions? To protect against a fluctuation of demand and supply of labour. Just because the labours are there to regulate it doesn't mean you don't have an effect.
name me the policy that encourages singapore companies to employ foreign workers of equal talent over locals. Nonsense.
Please reverse your view to the FT in our country for your question. That was what my whole post was about. It appears you missed the point.
And it seems now, that your defination of FT is defined as visitors from other countries who have no intention of staying here long term. How is that a threat again?? -
I am sorry - I did not realise that you are color blind. Since you want to be pedantic with me - correct your spelling - it's definition , not defination.Originally posted by deathbait:First of all, pls quote better. I had a hard time reading that chunk of rubbish you just wrote.
What, you don't cut wages due to your presence? Why do you think there are unions? To protect against a fluctuation of demand and supply of labour. Just because the labours are there to regulate it doesn't mean you don't have an effect.
name me the policy that encourages singapore companies to employ foreign workers of equal talent over locals. Nonsense.
Please reverse your view to the FT in our country for your question. That was what my whole post was about. It appears you missed the point.
And it seems now, that your defination of FT is defined as visitors from other countries who have no intention of staying here long term. How is that a threat again??
I think that you are missing my point over FTs.
I won't reverse my view. I was there when they started formulating the FT policy . I was in the forums discussing with an MP determined to run around the bush for the FT policy. Where were you?
As for Singaporean companies favoring foreign talents - lol look at DBS -CEO is a foreigner Jackson Tai who is , I think , is saying bye bye after a million dollar handshake. You don't need a policy on it - you just need to look around and see who is on top of who.
With all the so called top scholars going overseas under prestigious government scholarships , how come Singapore has to go and look for a foreigner to run DBS or Sentosa?
With a FT who is the CEO of Sentosa, the best they can come up with to revive a themepark is a casino resort? Wahahahaha.
If they recruited such great sport talents from China to become Singaporean citizens, how come no olympic win yet?
The only reason why American scientists are going to Singapore is because of embryonic research where they can use a day old embryos (whose embryos?) for experimentation. Once another developed country opens up to the idea , you will see them leaving for the next destination.
Hey if they are supposedly talented and great foreign talents - why don't I see a nobel science prize winner yet?
While other countries taken in talents that are of international standing , I have not seen any of international FT research or nobel science prize FT winners come out of Singapore yet .
I can name you one Singaporean who went on and make it big internationally - Sim Wong Hoo and Creative Technologies . Local grown company who turned into an international brand. Have any of the Singaporean FTs produce anything like it?Still zero. 0+0=0 , 0x0 =0 ....no matter how you argue , it's zero.
At least Australia takes in some and they turn out to be very successful like their own locals. USA takes in some and they turn out to be very successful like some of their own citizens. I have yet to see any good come out of FTs but alot of complaints from educated Singaporeans about their jobs.
As for NTUC trade union .... you mean you actually call that a union? Hello, ever seen how overseas trade unions work? Guess not. Go and have a look then tell me . -
Fallacious argument. You obviously don't know what trade unions are other than the one you have in Singapore which is not a true trade union.Originally posted by deathbait:What, you don't cut wages due to your presence? Why do you think there are unions? To protect against a fluctuation of demand and supply of labour. Just because the labours are there to regulate it doesn't mean you don't have an effect.
A trade union exists to protect the rights and benefits of the workers. Period. Not regulate it.
And I think your first question is incoherent at best.
I do not accept lower wages. I am covered by what we call in Australia, a certified agreement, as other local workers - that is also why I never enter a foreign country to work unless I have permanent residency status.
Those certified agreements are negotiated between the employing organisation and the trade union who represents the workers. So one side negotiates for the employer's benefits and the other negotiates for the workers' benefits.
Basically I came to the conclusion that either you know nothing and very naive ,or you are a high school kid on internet access paid for by his/her parents .
You cannot be a foreign talent because you have no freaking idea of what a trade union is. Right ... trade unions protect against supply and demand and regulate it....Hahahhaha