Do we really need more lawyers, and accountants ?
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A most competitive country is not one which have the highest number of accountants or lawyers.
A most competitive country is one which has produced a great number of scientists and engineers motivated by leaders who are technologically knowledgeable and passionate to create many industries and technology start-ups and world-wide products like the Nokia or Samsung.
It is because when we have such a confluence of scientists or engineers plus strategic industrialists and technologists we can easily invest our surpluses and use our own talents to succeed in creating new technology start-ups and new products which create jobs.
Accountants, lawyers can solve certain problems of society and make the society more efficient especially in solving inter-personal problems but still no matter how important is their role in such areas they are seldom strategic enough like the scientists and engineers or skilled workers to create jobs and grow the economic pie.
So before the whole country get carried away by all the assumptions about how important are certain talents think in larger perspective again and not become brainwashed into inertia and inaction to grow the real competitiveness in areas we need most.
Place our priorities in greater perspective so that we can catch up with countries which produce world products like Finland or Denmark.
We need to catch up on lost grounds in growing new and value-adding industries and jobs.
May be because our leaders are mostly lawyers that is why they cannot think in larger scope beyond laws and controls or disputes.
Before we produce yet more lawyers and more accountants we ought to have many new businesses or jobs created or else there will be no jobs and consequently no need for accountants or lawyers. -
I think it's the way lawyers think and analyse information that make them better candidates to take up a political position. Not sure about accountants though. But yea those in the science and tech sector are key to growth in the economy.
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Next time is all computerize liao.
Scan one bar code and will record everything into the system. Not need to do all those ledgers etc. -
not everyone has the knowledge to do accounts, tax etc..Originally posted by Darkness_hacker99:Next time is all computerize liao.
Scan one bar code and will record everything into the system. Not need to do all those ledgers etc.
muz comply with the law/acts etc..
computers are also operated by humans, dun forget. -
the real problem is attracting people to become engineer and scientist ba... engineer have poor pay, technically hard, study hardest, no life, get all the blame, poor prospect, keep up with technology, least appreciated person in a company. And private sectors r the one emplying engineers which is beyond the gov control.
Lawyers just file some paper and get to earn a month of hard work for an engineer. Accountant do routine job and get higher pay as well. Doctors get high pay and routine job too. Fiancial side also get better pay and lesser work than engineers.
If I got a child, I will tell him never become an engineer -
u muz be an engineer right?Originally posted by stupidissmart:the real problem is attracting people to become engineer and scientist ba... engineer have poor pay, technically hard, study hardest, no life, get all the blame, poor prospect, keep up with technology, least appreciated person in a company. And private sectors r the one emplying engineers which is beyond the gov control.
Lawyers just file some paper and get to earn a month of hard work for an engineer. Accountant do routine job and get higher pay as well. Doctors get high pay and routine job too. Fiancial side also get better pay and lesser work than engineers.
If I got a child, I will tell him never become an engineer
so far i never met an engineer who tells me that engineers got poor pay, poor prospect etc.. -
actually u r not wrong
I am an engineer
compare with lawyers, doctors, fiancial side people, accountants, sales etc, engineer is the one tat has poor prospect -
Hu Jin Tao of China did a wonderful job as a leader because of his training as an engineer. Engineer can plan out all the industries to invest in which really make progress for a country.Originally posted by lpx88:I think it's the way lawyers think and analyse information that make them better candidates to take up a political position. Not sure about accountants though. But yea those in the science and tech sector are key to growth in the economy.
A lawyer leader will plan all laws to control people and will have to leave major decisions on creating industries and resource utilization etc to others who are acquainted with such matters.
That areas of works were achieved by people like Dr. Goh Keng Swee or Hon Sui Sen but the moment he lost such key ministers due to leadership problem or self-centredness he stopped functioning effectively and since then had not been able to achieve another similar uplift or upgrading our economic competitiveness to value-adding technology driven model. So he had to rely on uttering one policy after another and yet was unable to achieve much by way of creating whole new industries to better utilize our local talents or resources which we do have.
So he will have to keep playing with foreign investments and foreign talents being clueless to come up with another upgrading. -
The prospect will be good, if you stay in one company long enough.Originally posted by stupidissmart:actually u r not wrong I am an engineer
compare with lawyers, doctors, fiancial side people, accountants, sales etc, engineer is the one tat has poor prospect -
Actually, I'm an engineer from IT firm.Originally posted by browniebaobao:u muz be an engineer right?
so far i never met an engineer who tells me that engineers got poor pay, poor prospect etc..
My take, be an engineer only if you really enjoy what you are doing as an engineer. Its true, engineers will always lose out a little, in terms of prospects. People managers are the ones that come out tops. An Engineer will always answer to a people manager (Proj Mangrs, consultant, Director, CEO).
If an engineer does become a consultant, people management skills are still essential.
Edit: Its after all about delivering technology to be used by people. People skills are essential. -
To be fair, I wouldn't exactly say engineers have poor prospects - well, not on a global scale anyway and I'm trained as an engineer myself. As a matter of fact, the issue of prospects you discussed here is more an issue of interpersonal skills than technical expertise.Originally posted by Jontst78:Actually, I'm an engineer from IT firm.
My take, be an engineer only if you really enjoy what you are doing as an engineer. Its true, engineers will always lose out a little, in terms of prospects. People managers are the ones that come out tops. An Engineer will always answer to a people manager (Proj Mangrs, consultant, Director, CEO).
If an engineer does become a consultant, people management skills are still essential.
Edit: Its after all about delivering technology to be used by people. People skills are essential.
While much of what you say is true, an awful lot ultimately comes down to the individual's personal attributes and aptitude that determine how far he/she goes. If you need any motivation, folks like Rex Tillerson (ExxonMobil CEO), Arun Sarin (Vodafone CEO), Jeroen van der Veer(Shell CEO) and John Thain (Merrill Lynch CEO) are living testaments to trained engineers being able leaders and successful people managers.
From what I have observed about the particular group of people you mentioned, much of their less-than-impressive prospects stem from the career paths they pursue where they have an inclination to view assailing in the direction of technical management (instead of holistic and general management) as the viable career option to pursue. In that respect, it is certainly not their training as an engineer that has held them back. -
Let's just say I don't trust lawyers to be politicians and leaders of nations.
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Move out of SG lorOriginally posted by stupidissmart:actually u r not wrong I am an engineer
compare with lawyers, doctors, fiancial side people, accountants, sales etc, engineer is the one tat has poor prospect
Engineers are much better appreciated and much much higher pay overseas
It is considered a Profession there and not one who do sai kan -
Agreed.Originally posted by walesa:To be fair, I wouldn't exactly say engineers have poor prospects - well, not on a global scale anyway and I'm trained as an engineer myself. As a matter of fact, the issue of prospects you discussed here is more an issue of interpersonal skills than technical expertise.
While much of what you say is true, an awful lot ultimately comes down to the individual's personal attributes and aptitude that determine how far he/she goes. If you need any motivation, folks like Rex Tillerson (ExxonMobil CEO), Arun Sarin (Vodafone CEO), Jeroen van der Veer(Shell CEO) and John Thain (Merrill Lynch CEO) are living testaments to trained engineers being able leaders and successful people managers.
From what I have observed about the particular group of people you mentioned, much of their less-than-impressive prospects stem from the career paths they pursue where they have an inclination to view assailing in the direction of technical management (instead of holistic and general management) as the viable career option to pursue. In that respect, it is certainly not their training as an engineer that has held them back.
My point was, even trained as an engineer, career advancement in general (there are some exceptions e.g. R&D) requires the individual to have interpersonal skills to complement the engineering expertise.
I have seen engineers' careers stagnate due to their inability to relate to the layman with what they were doing. Some of them are happy that way, there are those who rather talk to machines than to another human being, at a professional level. -
A canadian IT NMC was setting up shop here in SG. I spoke to the HR agent doing their legwork. A comment from the hiring director was "Damn hard to find articulate and business minded engineers here in SG."Originally posted by elindra:Move out of SG lor
Engineers are much better appreciated and much much higher pay overseas
It is considered a Profession there and not one who do sai kan
As an engineer in the IT Industry, I took that has a hint as to which skills to brush up really, a couple of years back. -
That, unfortunately, is a societal issue as much as anything. Having worked with people from all walks of life and other parts of the world, a mindset they seem to have against Asians (people raised in Asia, rather than those who are of an Asian ethnicity) is that such people are often monotonous and have a tendency to "go by the book". While that invariably translates to Asians being fancied if a job required the monotonous reproduction of a given process (ie. Asians are more hardworking and efficient in that regard), they are often overlooked for roles where ingenuity and autonomy are required.Originally posted by Jontst78:Agreed.
My point was, even trained as an engineer, career advancement in general (there are some exceptions e.g. R&D) requires the individual to have interpersonal skills to complement the engineering expertise.
I have seen engineers' careers stagnate due to their inability to relate to the layman with what they were doing. Some of them are happy that way, there are those who rather talk to machines than to another human being, at a professional level.
Just take a look at the culture in general - the next time you deal with a waiter, a bureaucrat or a senior management staff in Singapore, try making requests that are not predicted/expected and see how many is actually capable of exercising the common sense and flexibility to make decisions, instead of pursuing a course of action dictated "by the book" or having need to consult their superiors (which is just a further sign of bureaucracy and red tape at work). If you have worked in the Americas (I don't just mean the US, but also parts of North and South America), Europe or Australia, you'll experience a completely different culture. -
tell u all a joke told by one of my engine lecturer. pardon for my englandlish.
long ago there were 3 men going to be executed by dropping a large blade when they laid their neck on the machine. they were doctor, lawyer n engineer.
the 1st one was the doctor, he laid his neck on the execution device but the blade did not come down.
"God know i must be saving life by healing people's illness.
", said the doctor. the doctor was freed.
the 2nd person was the lawyer n the blade did not come down either.
"I have been saving alot of pple from going to jail n God know about it!", said the lawyer n he was freed too.
the last man to be executed was the engineer, before he was put to death, he claimed,
"Wait a min, i can see the problem of dat executing device. the chain that hold the blade is rusty, maybe i can help to fix it."
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... it's tough being an engineer. -
If you have worked in the Americas (I don't just mean the US, but also parts of North and South America), Europe or Australia, you'll experience a completely different culture.
I think the problem lies with what sort of regime that is ruling the people.
Autocratic rule or more relaxed rule.
High level of State intervention in people's lives vs non state intervention.
That is the root of the problem. -
Well, you've got to understand some things are not that easily understood by a vast majority of those subjected to excessive propaganda inundation by a press ranked 141st for press freedom.Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:I think the problem lies with what sort of regime that is ruling the people.
Autocratic rule or more relaxed rule.
High level of State intervention in people's lives vs non state intervention.
That is the root of the problem.
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Well, you've got to understand some things are not that easily understood by a vast majority of those subjected to excessive propaganda inundation by a press ranked 141st for press freedom
That is why I stay far far away from the Singapore mainstream propaganda media.
This mainstream media is a brain numbing destructive force in my view. -
Actually I acredit the mindsets to the education system in the 70s and 80s, even to the early 90s.Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:That is why I stay far far away from the Singapore mainstream propaganda media.
This mainstream media is a brain numbing destructive force in my view.
At that time, during the industrialization, along with the booming shipyard industry (apart from the recession in the 80s). Engineers were in high demand. Hence, if you notice, the education system at that time (even evident today) had a very strong grounding in Maths and Science. Even in the Uni at that time, Arts and social sciences were seen as dumping grounds during the 80s. Art students in secondary schools at the time, were stereotyped to be less academically inclined. Conformity was the aim at that time, which resulted in less creativity. The workforce today, is made of students of that era. Just my take. -
the prospect will depend on many factors. don think everything so pink and rosy, next time you stay 30yrs in a company and still considered a nobody then you say...Originally posted by Darkness_hacker99:The prospect will be good, if you stay in one company long enough. -
ah.. the time has come for the other professions to feel the pinch.. great.
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Singapore, to increase the number of engineers, make engineering school a dumping ground tat accept the worse students compared with other profession. In a way it did force the number of engineers to increase. However it make the engineer become abundant and therefore less treasured. There r sure engineers tat become the CEO of companies but the fact is prospect of an engineer r stagnant and mnay become engineer for life with little pay increment. Just look at the many engineers in your company... 10 years later where do u think they will become if they stay in tat company ? Wat will their pay be like ? Now look at the many doctor and accountant or banker around. 10 years later doctor open their own clinic or become head of department, accountant become top accountant with much higher pay than engineer, banker rise very high because there r many layers of promotion. Engineer ? Become senior engineer or even manager at most.
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What do sons and daughters of MPs study? Yeo Choo? Tong's daughter? Lee Hsien Loong's son/ children?
What do MPs know that commoners don't?
Don't parents want the best for their children?
Do engineers mix with people of lower status (workers)? Can network with powerful people? Feathers of the same type flock together? What type of environment engineers work in as compare to other professionals? Which jobs obsolent fast?