Saudi king 'pardons rape victim'
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Frankly if Sharia laws dictate the amputation of hands for stealing. The rapists should be castrated for raping because it is something taken by force with an offending appendage - somewhat like hands. That is if we want to stay within the logic of their religious law.Originally posted by extrinsic:yup, your rights, and i have no intentions nor any position to change that
Maybe you can help by highlighting that what is the "correct" sentence the rapist should get according to their law? Have they been under-punished?
Btw, vandalism in sg faces the cane. Stealing, cheating money is not though. i felt vandalism is the lesser of the latter evil. yet vandalism is punished more.
i bring up this point just to highlight that, in their context/law/religion..wadsoever, rape could be a lesser evil.
and yes, i do feel discrimation is involved in their country. i hated it as much as you, but law is law.
That is what I call true justice for all convicted rapists. Permanent castration without anaesthesia. I think the USA practice chemical castration for sex offenders in some states. -
yup, but does their current law states that rapist is to be castrated? If so, then they have under-punished the rapists. What i'm interested is, have they carried out the "correct" and fair punishments for the rapists?Originally posted by fymk:Frankly if Sharia laws dictate the cutting of hands for stealing. The rapists should be castrated for raping because it is something taken by force with an offending appendage - somewhat like hands.
That is what I call true justice for all convicted rapists. Permanent castration without anaesthesia.
btw, i agreed too with you on the castration part. In fact, i agreed so even for sg. castration for rape. death for cheating elderly's money.
make most illegal activites be punished by min. 20 yrs of jail+ canning.
It sounds v great to me. -
Nope. Their law places the blame of rape on the woman unless she can produce 4 male muslim witnesses. Who the heck will know they are getting raped.Originally posted by extrinsic:yup, but does their current law states that rapist is to be castrated? If so, then they have under-punished the rapists. What i'm interested is, have they carried out the "correct" and fair punishments for the rapists?
btw, i agreed too with you on the castration part. In fact, i agreed so even for sg. castration for rape. death for cheating elderly's money.
make most illegal activites be punished by min. 20 yrs of jail+ canning.
It sounds v great to me.
That is what makes me fed up - the apparent gender apartheid. -
huh? really? wow, interesting...Originally posted by fymk:Nope. Their law places the blame of rape on the woman unless she can produce 4 male muslim witnesses. Who the heck will know they are getting raped.
That is what makes me fed up - the apparent gender apartheid.
and that is the law?...
then guess, going by the law, the rapist are overly punished...*sigh* -
They got charged as adulterersOriginally posted by extrinsic:huh? really? wow, interesting...
and that is the law?...
then guess, going by the law, the rapist are overly punished...*sigh*
The thing is that girl got a certain number of lashes but it doubled up because it got to the media . Now that is not part of the Sharia law if it was truly based on the Quran because TVs and cameras did not exist in the time when the Quran was written. -
u know what bothers me. It continue to hold premise that women being the culprit by sexual orientation when they are born.
While customs and laws are written by man. Totally ignore the fact that woman gave birth to life. -
The law doesnt read this way. In Saudi they believe that the women shouldnt corrupt the mind of man by wearing sexy outfit and it is in the fault of the women to excite the man.Originally posted by fymk:Frankly if Sharia laws dictate the amputation of hands for stealing. The rapists should be castrated for raping because it is something taken by force with an offending appendage - somewhat like hands. That is if we want to stay within the logic of their religious law.
That is what I call true justice for all convicted rapists. Permanent castration without anaesthesia. I think the USA practice chemical castration for sex offenders in some states. -
laws if a country vs personal opinion.Originally posted by fymk:If you say that they have the right to discriminate against women , then what is there to stop others from discriminating against race? After that , what is there to say about killing in the name of religious superiority? There is no discernable difference between gender apartheid, religious and racial apartheids- they are discriminatory and wrong.
Hitler had his own beliefs that jews were filth and he set about wiping them out. Some hardcore muslims have the beliefs that Americans and the white world are the devils of the world and they did a 9/11 , london bombings, bali bombings etc.
There are cases of hardcore imans in western countries who are adamant that women are asking to get raped because they are "immodest" by the middle eastern standards. One iman recently created an uproar in Australia for stating that women exposing their flesh are akin to fresh meat asking to get raped. What does it tell you?
There are certain hardcore muslims are already imposing their own beliefs in other countries. Honor killings are not just boogeymen legends in European countries - they are a reality. Women have been raped by some of these black sheep who used the excuse of "religious culture" even though they are in another country.
These hardcore fundamentalists cast a bad light on the other muslims who want to coexist peacefully in a diverse society. Malaysia, Indonesia and Turkey are good examples of countries who can adapt to modernisation - if they can do it , why not the rest?
So for each hardcore muslim who criticises or even violate the rights of women in countries other than the middle east, there will be a few women criticising the laws of their land. I consider it a fair exchange.
I am a woman and I refuse to see how other women should be treated like property or lesser beings. It is not a liberal stance. It is about standing up for my own kind.
that's the comparison you draw between muslim law and genocide.
Please don't use strawman arguments. It irritates me. I don't approve of treating women as second class citizens either, but I recognise this is their culture/law and I am but an observer. -
furthermore, let's not confuse the crime brought against the woman with another seperate crime.
Despite what the sensationalist headlines like to say, this woman was not punished for being raped. She was having an illegal meeting with another man when she got kidnapped and raped, and because of this linked crime, her earlier indiscretion was revealed.
It was for this that she gets sentenced.
It's open and shut case. -
You irritate me with your apathy.Originally posted by deathbait:laws if a country vs personal opinion.
that's the comparison you draw between muslim law and genocide.
Please don't use strawman arguments. It irritates me. I don't approve of treating women as second class citizens either, but I recognise this is their culture/law and I am but an observer.
Laws can be wrong. Their court is reminiscent of the medieval inquistor courts where the inquisitors were given the power to burnt witches at the stake.
You don't approve yet you do nothing. Which translates into apathy. I won't recognise any law or culture who treats women as second class. That is my part .
Unless you are a woman, you can shut up and continue being apathetic as a man. -
She was dumb not to bring a male relative escort . They gave her a sentence - nobody noticed.Originally posted by deathbait:furthermore, let's not confuse the crime brought against the woman with another seperate crime.
Despite what the sensationalist headlines like to say, this woman was not punished for being raped. She was having an illegal meeting with another man when she got kidnapped and raped, and because of this linked crime, her earlier indiscretion was revealed.
It was for this that she gets sentenced.
It's open and shut case.
When it got into the media - the court decided to double up the sentence. In no where did I see in Sharia law that there is a need to double up the sentence.
It is human vindictiveness and gender apartheid that doubled the woman's sentence. -
i think its fair that she got a pardon.
the woman was guilty of an offence anyway by saudi law... a married woman who met another man in a car in a secluded spot.
the 200 lashes was not for being a rape victim (which of course every 'neutral' would love it to be) but for that earlier offence.
wonder how she and her husband feeling now. -
No, the 200 lashes is a double up for the media getting wind of her story. For her audacity, being a woman ,to appeal her sentence where men played judge and jury. Like I said it before - human vindictiveness and gender apartheid gave her 200 lashes.Originally posted by boredtulan:i think its fair that she got a pardon.
the woman was guilty of an offence anyway by saudi law... a married woman who met another man in a car in a secluded spot.
the 200 lashes was not for being a rape victim (which of course every 'neutral' would love it to be) but for that earlier offence.
wonder how she and her husband feeling now.
She got 90 lashes initially.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/21892325?__source=RSS*tag*&par=RSS
Strict rules
She was initially sentenced in November 2006 to several months in prison and 90 lashes for being alone in a car with a man with whom she was neither related nor married, a violation of the kingdom's strict segregation of the sexes.
The woman, who was 19 at the time of the rape, has said she met the man to retrieve a picture of herself from him because she had recently married.
The case sparked international outcry, especially after the court more than doubled the sentence last month to 200 lashes and six months prison in response to her appeal. -
Can go try and rape the king daughter lah. and see if the same rules applied.
think the guy maybe kanna public execution! -
That is a serious accusation and I can tell you that I am not anti-Islam.Originally posted by protonhybrid:spartans, you seem to be the major poster in this thread with your antiislamic rhetoric and dogma of discrimination against women in shariah laws.
you're also aware the cultural/regional/etc practices customs norms vary. do you think you make any sense then?
It is just that the Sharia laws are extremely discriminative to the women in today context. There is no such thing as fairness when it comes to man and woman.
Indeed I do regonise the differences between different cultures and their laws and norms. However, as human beings, we have to decide whether a punishment meted out is humane or not.
The term 'humane punishment' again is open to debate and one's personal interpration. And it will be hard for the whole world to agree on a fundamental set of humane regulations/laws which can be served as a basis/guidelines for all countries' laws. -
The Saudis can also say that the western liberal cultures that allow premarital sex has created many unwanted babies, suicide and abortion.Originally posted by Spartans:That is a serious accusation and I can tell you that I am not anti-Islam.
It is just that the Sharia laws are extremely discriminative to the women in today context. There is no such thing as fairness when it comes to man and woman.
Indeed I do regonise the differences between different cultures and their laws and norms. However, as human beings, we have to decide whether a punishment meted out is humane or not.
The term 'humane punishment' again is open to debate and one's personal interpration. And it will be hard for the whole world to agree on a fundamental set of humane regulations/laws which can be served as a basis/guidelines for all countries' laws. -
Actually, you should really try to imagine what you would think if they told you they think you should convert to their ways.Originally posted by fymk:You irritate me with your apathy.
Laws can be wrong. Their court is reminiscent of the medieval inquistor courts where the inquisitors were given the power to burnt witches at the stake.
You don't approve yet you do nothing. Which translates into apathy. I won't recognise any law or culture who treats women as second class. That is my part .
Unless you are a woman, you can shut up and continue being apathetic as a man.
Change is a two way street. Just because you feel it's wrong does not make it so. Chances are, they think we're wrong too. Different cultures, remember.
It's like history taught you nothing. -
And let's not spread more disinformation.Originally posted by fymk:She was dumb not to bring a male relative escort . They gave her a sentence - nobody noticed.
When it got into the media - the court decided to double up the sentence. In no where did I see in Sharia law that there is a need to double up the sentence.
It is human vindictiveness and gender apartheid that doubled the woman's sentence.
She got sentenced.
Media gets hold of story
She leverages media coverage to appeal an obviously open and shut case.
She gets a harsher sentence for applying pressure on courts with no justifications.
Seriously, READ THE FACTS.
You are so blind in your hatred you refuse to read the facts before critisising the courts. The fact that the woman was raped is not even relevant to the case. It's put in the headline to be sensationalistic.
What, islamic laws cannot be right, ever? -
She says two other men then entered the car and took them to a secluded area where others were waiting, and both she and her male companion were raped.
Both she and her male companion were raped? Does they mean, they rape the female and also the male? -
Yes, Middle Eastern arabs do rape man too (more often than most other places)Originally posted by zheshi:She says two other men then entered the car and took them to a secluded area where others were waiting, and both she and her male companion were raped.
Both she and her male companion were raped? Does they mean, they rape the female and also the male? -
It is the right of every human to define what is right and what is wrong. But isn't it blatantly wrong for the Arab guys to impose their definitions onto others and set laws that forbids women from meeting a male stranger, thereby denying the women's rights to act in a way which the women themselves do not define as wrong?Originally posted by deathbait:And let's not spread more disinformation.
She got sentenced.
Media gets hold of story
She leverages media coverage to appeal an obviously open and shut case.
She gets a harsher sentence for applying pressure on courts with no justifications.
Seriously, READ THE FACTS.
You are so blind in your hatred you refuse to read the facts before critisising the courts. The fact that the woman was raped is not even relevant to the case. It's put in the headline to be sensationalistic.
What, islamic laws cannot be right, ever?
This, of course, is wrong if and only if my first statement is defied. If so, what gives them the right to set those laws in the first place? -
Erm. They have the right to set the laws of their own community, much as we have the right to set laws for ourselves. It's how the social structure works. Just because it's alien to us does not make it wrong. They aren't the ones who are imposing their definations of right and wrong on others. You are.Originally posted by LatecomerX:It is the right of every human to define what is right and what is wrong. But isn't it blatantly wrong for the Arab guys to impose their definitions onto others and set laws that forbids women from meeting a male stranger, thereby denying the women's rights to act in a way which the women themselves do not define as wrong?
This, of course, is wrong if and only if my first statement is defied. If so, what gives them the right to set those laws in the first place?
Arab women are part of the arab society. That society has it's own rules. Insisting that they treat women wrongly is EXACTLY the same as them insisting we treat our womenfolk wrongly. There is no right or wrong here. Their community work in one way, and ours another. One thing's for sure though, they aren't the ones screaming and complaining when our women get equal rights. They at least are wise enough to know about respecting different cultures. -
You're just like one of those fence-sitters. The world doesn't wait for your balanced viewpoints, it moves on.Originally posted by deathbait:Erm. They have the right to set the laws of their own community, much as we have the right to set laws for ourselves. It's how the social structure works. Just because it's alien to us does not make it wrong. They aren't the ones who are imposing their definations of right and wrong on others. You are.
Arab women are part of the arab society. That society has it's own rules. Insisting that they treat women wrongly is EXACTLY the same as them insisting we treat our womenfolk wrongly. There is no right or wrong here. Their community work in one way, and ours another. One thing's for sure though, they aren't the ones screaming and complaining when our women get equal rights. They at least are wise enough to know about respecting different cultures. -
The main difference is that our ladies appreciated the fact that our society prides itself on gender equality.Originally posted by deathbait:Erm. They have the right to set the laws of their own community, much as we have the right to set laws for ourselves. It's how the social structure works. Just because it's alien to us does not make it wrong. They aren't the ones who are imposing their definations of right and wrong on others. You are.
Arab women are part of the arab society. That society has it's own rules. Insisting that they treat women wrongly is EXACTLY the same as them insisting we treat our womenfolk wrongly. There is no right or wrong here. Their community work in one way, and ours another. One thing's for sure though, they aren't the ones screaming and complaining when our women get equal rights. They at least are wise enough to know about respecting different cultures.
Do you know that there are many women's groups in Saudi Arabia, made up of Arab women, fighting for the rights of Arab women?
And majority of the Arab women want to have more right and freedom? Equal social standing as their male counterparts?
Moreover, significant number of ordinary Arab men do support that women deserved more rights and freedom, eg driving cars.
Sources: BBC news websites. Some of the articles are written by Arab writers. Once again you can also argue that BBC, being a Western media, is biased. Up to one's own interpration. -
I have read from another thread that we have often mistaken Arabic traditions and Sharia laws. Arabic traditions and Sharia laws are too closely interwined that non-Arab like us got confused.Originally posted by fymk:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19176808/
A perfect example of imposition of the hardcore minority on another country . Imposing their values on a society that cannot accept their ways.
Honour-killing is an Arabic tradition, not Sharia laws. If I am not wrong, honour-killing is prohibited under the Sharia laws. Numerous Islamic imans and scholars have already voiced their opinions that houour-killing is illegal.