Saudi king 'pardons rape victim'
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What hatred?Originally posted by deathbait:And let's not spread more disinformation.
She got sentenced.
Media gets hold of story
She leverages media coverage to appeal an obviously open and shut case.
She gets a harsher sentence for applying pressure on courts with no justifications.
Seriously, READ THE FACTS.
You are so blind in your hatred you refuse to read the facts before critisising the courts. The fact that the woman was raped is not even relevant to the case. It's put in the headline to be sensationalistic.
What, islamic laws cannot be right, ever?
I am speaking about women's rights.
The facts are there. In a very heavily dominated male society , how could a woman possibly have a voice to leverage using the media? It was her lawyer , who is a well known human activist, who appealed her case ,as the newspaper reported. Her husband used the media to appeal her case. I don't see how she , being the lowly woman , could command a media presence in Saudi Arabia.
For him appealing her case and for her husband using the media, she got an increased number of lashes . Reassignment of blame to the victim again.
You are so blind to think that you are so right when you really do need to improve your comprehension.
Their archaic law makes it right . However as a woman , it is repugnant and absolutely disgusting . I don't have to accept this as a woman and I don't think you have any right to tell me not to criticise any form of discrimination against my own gender. -
Originally posted by Spartans:
It is their belief therefore their values. I was very careful about the words I choose - notice I didn't say imposition of religion.
I have read from another thread that we have often mistaken Arabic traditions and Sharia laws. Arabic traditions and Sharia laws are too closely interwined that non-Arab like us got confused.
Honour-killing is an Arabic tradition, not Sharia laws. If I am not wrong, [b]honour-killing is prohibited under the Sharia laws. Numerous Islamic imans and scholars have already voiced their opinions that houour-killing is illegal.[/b]
Those are examples especially the one about the Iman who is a religious leader.
The honor killing is not only inherent in the arabic culture , it is also done in Pakistan . Some of the hardliners actually believe that it is what Islam commands. Under the sharia law in most middle eastern countries , the person who honor kills , does not serve much of a sentence - maybe two to three months. So it just shows how prohibited it really is. -
The Saudi King got compassion and heart
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Believe it or not, I find the increased punishment for going to the media is ok...
I mean, we do have that here in Singapore... There is a "certain organization" that will punish their members if they decided to bring organization problem to the media. -
The issue is that the lawyer and the husband were the ones who brought attention to the woman's plight. So why should she get the flak of it all?Originally posted by MohamedF:Believe it or not, I find the increased punishment for going to the media is ok...
I mean, we do have that here in Singapore... There is a "certain organization" that will punish their members if they decided to bring organization problem to the media.
The lawyer had is licence revoked. But she got extra lashes. -
I'm a muslim, and sorry to say, i'm against that kind of punishment too.
I mean, I understand in history this was the common islamic law. Strict and straight. But the thing is, time change. And the sad thing is that people, man are trying to take advantage of this law against woman.
And for this i'm very sad about. I've read head of villagers raping daughters of some family because of reason such as causing disgrace to a certain family. This is something common. This is taking advantage of the rules of my beloved religion. The reason being that, the female victim will be very scared to approach the authorities because she will also be punished as seen like in this case.
I'm always heartbroken when I read something like this. I as a muslim man, will never want to treat someone unfairly. If this incident wasn't to get any media coverage, that punishment will have gone through.
Yet again, I think this itself is a debatable issue. Any muslim brothers/sisters care to shed light on this case. What is your view?
Perhaps we should at least show our views and share it with our fellow non-muslim friends in this forum.
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It has nothing to do with Islam... It has all to do with Arabic Justice system...Originally posted by silvernitrate:I'm a muslim, and sorry to say, i'm against that kind of punishment too.
I mean, I understand in history this was the common islamic law. Strict and straight. But the thing is, time change. And the sad thing is that people, man are trying to take advantage of this law against woman.
And for this i'm very sad about. I've read head of villagers raping daughters of some family because of reason such as causing disgrace to a certain family. This is something common. This is taking advantage of the rules of my beloved religion. The reason being that, the female victim will be very scared to approach the authorities because she will also be punished as seen like in this case.
I'm always heartbroken when I read something like this. I as a muslim man, will never want to treat someone unfairly. If this incident wasn't to get any media coverage, that punishment will have gone through.
Yet again, I think this itself is a debatable issue. Any muslim brothers/sisters care to shed light on this case. What is your view?
Perhaps we should at least show our views and share it with our fellow non-muslim friends in this forum. -
What about the Pakistani Justice System or Bangladeshi Justice system or even Indonesian Justice system.....and the list go on and on.I feel it is time for reformasi for every religion then only can man evolve spiritually.Originally posted by MohamedF:It has nothing to do with Islam... It has all to do with Arabic Justice system... -
Originally posted by fymk:
let's not get ahead of ourselves here. i think you're the one who's misinformed in this case.
You are probably male and you probably think women are inferior to men.
Well , if the tables are turned and the law is discriminatory against men , no doubt you will be first in line to yell out discrimination.
they're [b]not punishing the victim for getting raped
they're punishing the victim for accompanying a stranger/ male adult (which is a crime in saudi arabia)
the rapists who're male are being punished. i dont think i'm yelling out discrimination the way you claim.
who's to decide which laws are right or not? by IMPOSING your opinion or thoughts on them, you'd be committing the crime of colonialism. NO YOU"RE NOT imposing them on saudis (i doubt you have any way of doing so) but IF you'had the power to do so, you talk as if you would have done that.
Laws are not always right. The whole Saudi system reeks of medieval laws with no checks or balances. Just like the medieval laws of the European courts where religion hold sway and that inquisitors could burn a woman alive at the stake for being a so called "witch". No appeal , judgement is final unless the pope or the king pardons. See a similarity there?
singapore has laws like death to drug traffickers. while netherlands has different laws. which one would you say is "right"? many other instances abound. different place, different time, different society, norms customs cultures etc = different law!
get used to it.
it's not about what can be manipulated or not. even in singapore rules can be manipulated. if you search under my username you'll find a thread on medical malpractice, and i have a similar concern about laws being manipulated to favour the party with better lawyer.
As far as I am concerned, Saudi Arabia doesn't even have a uniform code of conduct across the courts . For sexual misconduct, the court will be made up of 3 Wahabist clerics/ qadis .
On a good day , may be those 3 qadis may let the woman off . On a bad day, the 3 qadis could be those type of men who think women are lesser human beings just because they interpret the Quran as so, and therefore condemn a woman.
Even the bible can be manipulated so can the Torah and Quran to the benefits of men.
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i'm talking about an incident in singapore.
in fact, in anglophone countries of west, singapore/saudi arabia are synonyms of dictatorial/authoritarian countries with prosperous citizens.
while india/bangladesh are synonyms of democratic countries with impoverished citizens.
that was an example in an introductory econs textbook. goes to show singapore and saudi arabia are widely perceived to be in same bracket at least in anglophone countries. to have singaporeans raise a ruckus over issues in saudi arabia reeks of irony.
anyway thanks for a nice calm and well thought-out post. -
Originally posted by fymk:
well looks like you're quite dogmatic now! if it's a fact at least you can show me some proof.
He is not anti -islamic in the views.
Heck - the fanatiscism of Islamic clerics in the middle eastern countries have subjugated women to a lesser being . It is a fact. Don't need to argue it.
tell me though, in which part of the world are women not subjugated by men. they'd be in some parts of the world which are considered "remote" maybe in the deep jungles of certain countries/regions.
other than those forested regions i think pretty much everywhere women are subjugated in one or the other, whether you admit it or not, [b]whether you classify it as such or notIn Australia, we have been forced to listen to gang rapists claiming Islam as their defence , and an iman calling women fresh meat just because they don't follow their standards of modesty.
do you live in australia? just curious. anyway if i recall correctly, the imam likened indecently exposed women as uncovered meat, which actually makes sense to me. i guess human muscles are "meat" after all as are "meat"s nonvegetarians consume.
In Europe , there were honor killings by muslim families from the middle east, sub saharan Africa or pakistani origins. And guess what the defence is again? Their religion.
as for the imam's appraisal of aussie women's dress sense, aren't you and other anglophones in oz, uk,usa showing double standards when they themselves call arabic women or other muslim women oppressed since they dont follow your sense of dress or fashion.
in singapore among other countries there were cases of executions of drug traffickers which also caused hue and cry in guess where? oz land! difference in opinion, values, cultures etc are to be tolerated not berated, denigrated or looked at in any negative way.
that's a nice theory you've produced, unfortunately it doesn't hold any water. when bali bombings happened or such events happen (like UMNO doing something contrary to chinese interest not chinese interests in my/sg, NOT all nonmuslim interests; or playboy being banned or sued in indonesia) i guess you or your cadre will join ranks to talk about rise in 'fundamentalism" as opposed to "moderate"ism (lol at my coinage of a new word)
I don't mind the moderate Islamic practices in SE asia. The muslims in SE asia are more tolerant than the ones who come from the Middle east. Why? Because the culture in some ethnic groups in SE asia had a matriachal system , i.e. Minangkabaus. The Islam which spread to SE asia was integrated into the culture. Islam of that time didn't seek to force itself on cultures - it seeked conversion and in order to integrate , it had to accomodate cultural norms of the time.
moderate/extremist/fundamentalists etc are arbitrary and human POLITICAL creations, they DONT EXIST in reality. had you not heard of such terms in usa/uk/oz media or media influenced by them, would you've used these terms or similar terms?
that is just the politically correct disclaimer!
Islam is a good religion which preaches the way of righteousness. However you have men , who in the name of religion, destroying the good religion themselves by their actions /words as well as IMPOSITION on other cultures, regardless of whether intentionally or unintentionally.
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no one is destroying ANY good religion by any action. all "good" religions are here to stay and probably will owing to their "goodness".
you talk about women being subjected to subjugation in those lands of arabia or middle east, what do you say about singaporean women
being underrepresented in higher academia, politics, armed forces, and so on (other sectors of society).
being expected to contribute nothing when they date (financial contribution)
being expected to wear skimpier clothes than men/show more skin than men in official attire.
being expected to be rebuked perhaps even arrested for going topless in public as opposed to men (which contrasts with the above case)
and so on.
you really think oz/uk/usa/anglophone countries or colonies like singapore or elsewhere women are equal to men? -
Originally posted by fymk:
you got me laughing into a hysteria friend. you call USA a model of democratic free and liberal nation.
LOL Democratic rights of a community?
Saudi Arabia is a kingdom. There is no democracy there for women. There is no democratic say who the minister should be. Democracy at best in Saudi Arabia is a farce. Any one who says anything against the Clerics are labelled as Heretics and KILLED. [b]Even IRAN looks extremely democratic in comparison to Saudi Arabia. Even Malaysia would be the Muslim world's version of USA - liberal and free, standing next to Saudi Arabia. Iran herself, even have women in government and it is a strict muslim country. They have the second largest population of jews in the middle eastern world. What does that tell you about Saudi?
If the Holy Inquisition was present in the modern times now ,and non-catholics get persecuted and killed as heretics and pagans or even witches- would you still agree with the said democratic rights of the community to do so?
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say no more friend you're too ignorant to argue about world/global politics friend, i'm afraid. you have to learn more about the middle east and world.
to call the USA a model of democracy, liberal and free ideas is a farce. i suggest you rectify that error immediately.
Iran is ACTUALLY not at all tyrannical, despite whatever anglo saxon media has been bombarding to its viewers/audiences regularly esp. after 2003 invasion of iraq by usa/uk/oz/etc incl. sg.
Iran is a pretty advanced country in science, technology and in almost all fields of modern day living. it also has a long and unbroken tradition culture history dating back millennia to days of cyrus darius etc.
and despite whatever you may have been brainwashed into believing, democracy is no panacea or cure for all. singapore certainly isn't wasn't democratic and malaysia probably not. philippines otoh was and same with likes of indonesia or thailand (for some time in their histories). still on certain measures, most people whether democracies' citizens or authoritarian rules' citizens would prefer sg/my over philippines,thailand or indonesia among others.
democracy is a catch word used by politicians especially bush jr and others. it's certainly not what its' hyped up to be by anglophones, and certainly USA is NOT an example of that. -
Originally posted by protonhybrid:
Maybe you have a problem with comprehension the same way death bait did.
let's not get ahead of ourselves here. i think you're the one who's misinformed in this case.
they're not punishing the victim for getting raped
they're punishing the victim for accompanying a stranger/ male adult (which is a crime in saudi arabia)
the rapists who're male are being punished. i dont think i'm yelling out discrimination the way you claim.
They doubled her sentence because her case was brought into the media by her lawyer and husband since a woman in their country cannot command a media presence. I call that a reassignment of blame to the victim even under the Sharia Law.
Colonialism? I am not colonising them . I am criticising them as a woman. As a woman , I feel it is wrong to have gender apartheid. Any comments on that aspect or can you just not tolerate women power?
who's to decide which laws are right or not? by IMPOSING your opinion or thoughts on them, you'd be committing the crime of colonialism. NO YOU"RE NOT imposing them on saudis (i doubt you have any way of doing so) but IF you'had the power to do so, you talk as if you would have done that.
singapore has laws like death to drug traffickers. while netherlands has different laws. which one would you say is "right"? many other instances abound. different place, different time, different society, norms customs cultures etc = different law!
get used to it.
And if you bothered to read my reply, you came up with no case but a baseless generalisation. Don't compare what is a well known fact of Saudi Arabia being a gender apartheid country with your baseless statement of medical malpractice.
it's not about what can be manipulated or not. even in singapore rules can be manipulated. if you search under my username you'll find a thread on medical malpractice, and i have a similar concern about laws being manipulated to favour the party with better lawyer.
i'm talking about an incident in singapore.
in fact, in anglophone countries of west, singapore/saudi arabia are synonyms of dictatorial/authoritarian countries with prosperous citizens.
while india/bangladesh are synonyms of democratic countries with impoverished citizens.
that was an example in an introductory econs textbook. goes to show singapore and saudi arabia are widely perceived to be in same bracket at least in anglophone countries. to have singaporeans raise a ruckus over issues in saudi arabia reeks of irony.
anyway thanks for a nice calm and well thought-out post.
If you can find evidence that there is gross negligence on the part of the doctor , go to the Medical Board and I am pretty sure that they will take action. If the doctor has wronged you and you have evidence - go to the courts. Don't throw accusations that Singapore treats foreigners like crap. You give no evidence at all with no details whatsoever .
Even in Saudi Arabia , they have to get 4 male muslim witnesses to state a rape took place, deplorable as their gender apartheid is
As I said , their archaic law may make it right. But as a woman, I reserve the rght to speak up against gender discrimination. As a person , I find their laws sickeningly repugnant and degrading to my own gender. My feelings, my opinions , so buzz off.
Don't like countries who were former british colonies? Don't come then. Stay in where ever you came from since you appear to generalise them as the same across the board. -
wow an amazingly serene calm and thinking person amidst a flurry of different kinds of persons! hats off to you for thinking the most simple things and putting them into words! hats off to you for thinking logically.Originally posted by deathbait:calm down guys
It is their law.
Much like death sentence for drugs is ours.
Or caning for vandalism.
Outsiders may not agree, but it's ours/theirs.
Like i said, you may not agree with it, but it's not your law. So chill. -
IF you IMPOSE anything, any idea on them or anybody, that IS an IMPOSITION for crying out loud.Originally posted by fymk:So women having the same rights of men as human beings is an imposition?
So if the culture of a country says that you are racially inferior - you are therefore deprived of certain rights because you do not belong to the "racially superior" and that is correct to you?
So in a way it is saying that Hitler did no wrong as long as the majority agrees with him?
So the Japanese attempt at ethnic cleansing of chinese in the WW2 was good and correct ?
What a load of crap.
your statements are a load of crap no doubt, which is funnily what you wrote at the end of your post too.
the diplomatic answer to your questions will be long winded . to cut it short, YES you or anybody else will be WRONG plain WRONG to impose what YOU think is right on them. -
Originally posted by protonhybrid:
I am independent and single . oh , You do happen to be aware that there are actually independent single women who have their own jobs with career prospects and their own properties without the need of a man in the world, right?
well looks like you're quite dogmatic now! if it's a fact at least you can show me some proof.
tell me though, in which part of the world are women not subjugated by men. they'd be in some parts of the world which are considered "remote" maybe in the deep jungles of certain countries/regions.
other than those forested regions i think pretty much everywhere women are subjugated in one or the other, whether you admit it or not, [b]whether you classify it as such or not
So explain to me which part of my independence as a woman have been subjugated ? I would love to hear that line of logic from you since I actually am not aware of being discriminated against because I am a woman.do you live in australia? just curious. anyway if i recall correctly, the imam likened indecently exposed women as uncovered meat, which actually makes sense to me. i guess human muscles are "meat" after all as are "meat"s nonvegetarians consume.
I live in Australia. Australians give out their opinions freely. Some supported the death sentence and some don't. Freedom of expression , in case you have no inkling of what it all means.
as for the imam's appraisal of aussie women's dress sense, aren't you and other anglophones in oz, uk,usa showing double standards when they themselves call arabic women or other muslim women oppressed since they dont follow your sense of dress or fashion.
in singapore among other countries there were cases of executions of drug traffickers which also caused hue and cry in guess where? oz land! difference in opinion, values, cultures etc are to be tolerated not berated, denigrated or looked at in any negative way.
If that iman wants to enter a country and live there, he follows the culture and NOT impose his VALUES on the SOCIETY. He can follow his own values as long as he does not make stupid remarks openly because those remarks can bite him in the back.
If he can't take what he terms as raw meat , I wonder why he didn't choose Saudi Arabia as a choice place of immigration. The women there are covered from head to toe.
Human muscles are hidden under skin - unless you have x - ray eyes - I don't think he meant it that way.
The History of Malaya says differently about my nice theory. Malaccan history as well . So are you saying History is a liar?
that's a nice theory you've produced, unfortunately it doesn't hold any water. when bali bombings happened or such events happen (like UMNO doing something contrary to chinese interest not chinese interests in my/sg, NOT all nonmuslim interests; or playboy being banned or sued in indonesia) i guess you or your cadre will join ranks to talk about rise in 'fundamentalism" as opposed to "moderate"ism (lol at my coinage of a new word)
moderate/extremist/fundamentalists etc are arbitrary and human POLITICAL creations, they DONT EXIST in reality. had you not heard of such terms in usa/uk/oz media or media influenced by them, would you've used these terms or similar terms?
Oh so how would you label those who did the bali bombings ? Heroes no doubt in your terms.
That is your generalisation of sg women .
you talk about women being subjected to subjugation in those lands of arabia or middle east, what do you say about singaporean women
being underrepresented in higher academia, politics, armed forces, and so on (other sectors of society).
being expected to contribute nothing when they date (financial contribution)
being expected to wear skimpier clothes than men/show more skin than men in official attire.
being expected to be rebuked perhaps even arrested for going topless in public as opposed to men (which contrasts with the above case)
and so on.
you really think oz/uk/usa/anglophone countries or colonies like singapore or elsewhere women are equal to men?
As I recall living and working in Singapore did not require me to wear skimpier clothing . Is that your view that women have to show more skin than men at the workplace in Singapore and elsewhere? That is rather moronic.
Most women have to balance work and family life . Politicians have to garner the wholesome image of being a family man or woman. It is a choice. Heard of house husbands? They do exists you know.
If a man goes naked waste down , he gets labelled a pervert and he gets charged . He might even get caning!
So explain to me how is it so unequal now?
House Husbands - rare but you got some going on
Education - women are being educated more and more. Last time a woman was expected to marry and be a wife and mother . Now a woman can aspire for so much more. So we have yet to see the effects there.
Skimpy clothing - it is a woman's choice if she wishes to don them on or not. -
Excuse me , did I say anything negative about Iran? I don't think I did. Why so defensive? I objected to how hollywood portrayed Xerxes in the movie 300.Originally posted by protonhybrid:you got me laughing into a hysteria friend. you call USA a model of democratic free and liberal nation.
say no more friend you're too ignorant to argue about world/global politics friend, i'm afraid. you have to learn more about the middle east and world.
to call the USA a model of democracy, liberal and free ideas is a farce. i suggest you rectify that error immediately.
Iran is ACTUALLY not at all tyrannical, despite whatever anglo saxon media has been bombarding to its viewers/audiences regularly esp. after 2003 invasion of iraq by usa/uk/oz/etc incl. sg.
Iran is a pretty advanced country in science, technology and in almost all fields of modern day living. it also has a long and unbroken tradition culture history dating back millennia to days of cyrus darius etc.
and despite whatever you may have been brainwashed into believing, democracy is no panacea or cure for all. singapore certainly isn't wasn't democratic and malaysia probably not. philippines otoh was and same with likes of indonesia or thailand (for some time in their histories). still on certain measures, most people whether democracies' citizens or authoritarian rules' citizens would prefer sg/my over philippines,thailand or indonesia among others.
democracy is a catch word used by politicians especially bush jr and others. it's certainly not what its' hyped up to be by anglophones, and certainly USA is NOT an example of that.
I know of the persian history. They were Zoroastarians during the time when Persia was an empire. The first human rights documents were written by the Persians and had a very tolerant culture - a culture which respected religions.
Even now though Islam has taken over as the primary religion , they do still respect the persian Jews as the "People of the Book" ( a statement by the Great Ayatollah Khomeni himself) and should be protected. One can say safely that Islamic Iran is not as tolerant as its past entity , the Persian Empire under Cyrus the Great. However it is more tolerant compared to its arab brethen.
And if we do look at the past of Persia and their human rights documents , it is the almost similar to the UN charter of Universal Human Rights in terms of right to religious beliefs , right to liberty , no slavery, and the ancient persians also respected women- women could have property, earn wages etc . So there is not too difference between the Universal human rights declaration and the document of the first human rights documentation decreed by Cyrus.
And if you notice - it is actually a sarcastic reply to OM about him implying Saudi Arabia as some democracy. -
Originally posted by fymk:
then what is there to stop discriminating on the basis of nationality, language etc. guess what in your oh so prim and proper singapore, that's a reality and PERFECTLY LEGAL! then what about height, what about looks, what about weight, what about right/left handedness, what about social status, what about wealth, what about disabilities etc etc etc and the list goes on and on and on....where do you stop? what about animals? what about other living organisms? what about harmful or deadly viruses or microbes that can kill humans? what about them?
If you say that they have the right to discriminate against women , then what is there to stop others from discriminating against race? After that , what is there to say about killing in the name of religious superiority? There is no discernable difference between gender apartheid, religious and racial apartheids- they are discriminatory and [b]wrong.
get out of your shell and realize your perception of "wrong" doesn't make it so.Hitler had his own beliefs that jews were filth and he set about wiping them out. Some hardcore muslims have the beliefs that Americans and the white world are the devils of the world and they did a 9/11 , london bombings, bali bombings etc.
dont bring irrelevant things into this discussion. and anyway get your facts right. many muslim majority nations are by anglophone definitions "white". how can they be against "white world". and no even the most hardcore muslims even in their worst days wouldn't say a certain ethnic group or race is devilish or such. it's ONLY in your imagination!There are cases of hardcore imans in western countries who are adamant that women are asking to get raped because they are "immodest" by the middle eastern standards. One iman recently created an uproar in Australia for stating that women exposing their flesh are akin to fresh meat asking to get raped. What does it tell you?
YOU are the one who's shortsighted. WHY, oh WHY, do you limit your cases to western countries only? why are the western countries only so important to you? it tells us two things. first your own views are shaped by them. two you hold them above all others.
on this issue, i've tackled it before. the imam is right to say whatever he wants in australia, isn't austrlaia an anglophone country that speaks about freedom of speech. where did that "value" of freedom blah blah blah go now?There are certain hardcore muslims are already imposing their own beliefs in other countries. Honor killings are not just boogeymen legends in European countries - they are a reality. Women have been raped by some of these black sheep who used the excuse of "religious culture" even though they are in another country.
again europe? what about rest of the world? note my paragraphs above.These hardcore fundamentalists cast a bad light on the other muslims who want to coexist peacefully in a diverse society. Malaysia, Indonesia and Turkey are good examples of countries who can adapt to modernisation - if they can do it , why not the rest?
kindly tell me what is modernization. and why are turkey malaysia or indonesia fine examples of these. i think you're just going with mainstream anglophone media propaganda, which in reality holds no water.So for each hardcore muslim who criticises or even violate the rights of women in countries other than the middle east, there will be a few women criticising the laws of their land. I consider it a fair exchange.
first you're implying muslims are/have the right to ONLY be in middle east. b**locks! second BY YOUR DEFINITION they did nothing to singapore afaik, hence you're not being fair either.
but quibbling aside, tell me how many muslim countries in middle east ACTUALLY killed millions, enslaved hundreds of millions, for hundreds of years, shaped their colonies' customs, cultures, laws, education, dress, entertainment, VALUES (like in your case, it's english values that dominate), fashion, science, religion etc.
now compare that with europe. yet it's europe which you use as measuring stick. high time you do some soul searching friend.
it is certainly not a liberal but a very fanatic stance. what do you know of, let alone do or can do to help, the billions of women out there in the world right now? and what crimes they are being subjected to.
I am a woman and I refuse to see how other women should be treated like property or lesser beings. It is not a liberal stance. It is about standing up for my own kind.
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let me ask you, singapore alongside many other countries also dont like women going topless in public, but men i dont think faces a problem.
is this gender discrimination against women in your book?
IF IT is NOT, by YOUR Definition, then we'll see how shortsighted and narrowminded you're.
IF YES, start criticizing anglophone countries first. -
mr muslim man, do you just jump in without reading and apologise for something you apparently do not know the full facts to?Originally posted by silvernitrate:I'm a muslim, and sorry to say, i'm against that kind of punishment too.
I mean, I understand in history this was the common islamic law. Strict and straight. But the thing is, time change. And the sad thing is that people, man are trying to take advantage of this law against woman.
And for this i'm very sad about. I've read head of villagers raping daughters of some family because of reason such as causing disgrace to a certain family. This is something common. This is taking advantage of the rules of my beloved religion. The reason being that, the female victim will be very scared to approach the authorities because she will also be punished as seen like in this case. -
my friend you're as bigoted as bigots can get.Originally posted by fymk:I reserve the right to criticise them on their gender apartheid until they amend their laws.
That is my right as a woman.
As far as I am concerned , the girl was dumb not to bring male relatives but to get a sentence worse than the rapists - it is ridiculous.
you dont reserve any more right than i reserve the right to do whatever i wish. i simply can't say whatever i wish in this forum for instance or i'll be banned. for this reason, trolling or swearing is not tolerated here.
likewise you being in singapore dont have any right to criticize saudi any more than saudis have any right to criticizing singaporeans.
have you even lived there? are you living there right now? how does this affect you?
it's ridiculous that you try to state what is to be judged correct, ridiculous, sane, prim and proper and so on. that shows if you had your way, you'd colonize the whole world and impose your values on them all, all of the world. -
Protonhybrid , you keep yapping about anglophone countries.
I am fortunate to be born in Singapore , not Saudi Arabia. I have my freedom to be a woman , to choose whoever I wish to marry , to see whoever I want to see. I am fortunate to live in Australia , where I still have my freedoms and the bonus of research opportunities there .
You keep talking about Anglophone countries.
Look at what I have written about the first human rights document decreed by Cyrus the Great of Persia. If women rights are as you think some form of an anglophone issue , I think not. Women had to fight for their right to vote even in the history of the Europe. Even in ancient Persia during Cyrus's reign, the Zoroastarians treated women with respect . There was no form of slavery - he banned it all. People were free to worship whoever they want.
So really now ...is Persia an anglophone for that aspect? Even in China's ancient history , in the peak of the Tang Dynasty , women were allowed more freedoms than their European counterparts of that time and FAR MORE than the Saudi Arabian women.
So in the context of Cyrus the Great ( since you are so adamant that the current human rights are a USA thing and therefore wrong) and China's past , women were given more rights than Saudi Arabian Women of today.
And now for my opinion, there is no way my opinion is wrong to me - it is mine. Any form of discrimination , be it racial , religious or gender based, IS WRONG. -
Your comprehension is shocking. I already said I am in Australia.Originally posted by protonhybrid:my friend you're as bigoted as bigots can get.
you dont reserve any more right than i reserve the right to do whatever i wish. i simply can't say whatever i wish in this forum for instance or i'll be banned. for this reason, trolling or swearing is not tolerated here.
likewise you being in singapore dont have any right to criticize saudi any more than saudis have any right to criticizing singaporeans.
have you even lived there? are you living there right now? how does this affect you?
it's ridiculous that you try to state what is to be judged correct, ridiculous, sane, prim and proper and so on. that shows if you had your way, you'd colonize the whole world and impose your values on them all, all of the world.
I have a right to criticise anything I wish. Freedom of speech , equality of women and all.
I may not be living there but that doesn't mean that I should tolerate what is going on with the women folk there.
So how I think Cyrus the Great will flip in his grave about your tune of imposition. The first great human rights document states contrary to what you say. Persian Empire FTW.
If I had my way to IMPOSE my VALUES on the WORLD - all women in the world have equal rights - I don't see anything wrong with that - Do you? After women are the ones who gave birth to men - I don't see how women should be imprisoned in their own homes, married off like some piece of property exchange, guarded by their fathers/husbands/sons and if they were not lucky -having virtually nothing to escape a loveless abusive marriage OR even to get justice for themselves.
Calling me a bigot for wanting women to be on equal terms with men and have the same rights? I find that you are an equal , if not worse, bigot for being unable to take my opinions as a woman. -
What do you mean?Originally posted by boredtulan:mr muslim man, do you just jump in without reading and apologise for something you apparently do not know the full facts to?
I read the first post, and my post was my own views about the news article.
Is there something wrong? I said something wrong? I apologize in advance. -
i think you're going overboard mate. if it's found that the offender used his brains to deceive/lure somebody into making mistakes and lose all the victim's property would you chop off his brains.Originally posted by fymk:Frankly if Sharia laws dictate the amputation of hands for stealing. The rapists should be castrated for raping because it is something taken by force with an offending appendage - somewhat like hands. That is if we want to stay within the logic of their religious law.
That is what I call true justice for all convicted rapists. Permanent castration without anaesthesia. I think the USA practice chemical castration for sex offenders in some states.
anyway that's what you suggest. usa has no role in this discussion. it didn't happen in usa, nor is this a usa based forum. -
Someone asked for my opinion. I gave it . If you cannot accept it , it's your problem. My opinion , as I repeated so many times, cannot be wrong because it is MY opinion and MINE alone. I don't see it as an imposition of anything as what you like to scream out about anglo countries.Originally posted by protonhybrid:i think you're going overboard mate. if it's found that the offender used his brains to deceive/lure somebody into making mistakes and lose all the victim's property would you chop off his brains.
anyway that's what you suggest. usa has no role in this discussion. it didn't happen in usa, nor is this a usa based forum.
If I think Saudi Arabia's laws towards women are wrong, I say it out. It becomes your problem if you are unable to digest MY thoughts. -
Geraldine, in your opinion do you think premarital sex acceptable?Originally posted by fymk:Someone asked for my opinion. I gave it . If you cannot accept it , it's your problem. My opinion , as I repeated so many times, cannot be wrong because it is MY opinion and MINE alone. I don't see it as an imposition of anything as what you like to scream out about anglo countries.
If I think Saudi Arabia's laws towards women are wrong, I say it out. It becomes your problem if you are unable to digest MY thoughts.