Saudi king 'pardons rape victim'
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that is pathetic a reply frankly as pathetic as it can get. if you dont recognize any law that's different from yours, i can say the same about european laws that pervade almost all colonized countries' laws and it is going by that law (and language, and tech, and customs, and education, and so on) that you hold the saudi LAW itself guilty of being 'wrong'!Originally posted by fymk:You irritate me with your apathy.
Laws can be wrong. Their court is reminiscent of the medieval inquistor courts where the inquisitors were given the power to burnt witches at the stake.
You don't approve yet you do nothing. Which translates into apathy. I won't recognise any law or culture who treats women as second class. That is my part .
Unless you are a woman, you can shut up and continue being apathetic as a man.
mind you england has no place in asia, nor do chinese have a place in south east asia/asean, then why not 'chinese' people who're obviously "chinese" as name suggests must move to china.
anything to contrary is wrong and going by your definition i shouldn't accept anything else that says the contrary.
I do agree chinese are chinese and belong to china. and maybe they do need to leave ASEAN to head for motherland-PRC. but that doesn't mean any law that doesn't agree with your own ideal view of a legal system, needs to change, or needs to be rejected by you as a proper one. -
i'm saying that we know that its wrong, because we live in a free-er world than them. from birth, we lived in security, we lived in peace, so we know that it is good.Originally posted by fymk:So women having the same rights of men as human beings is an imposition?
So if the culture of a country says that you are racially inferior - you are therefore deprived of certain rights because you do not belong to the "racially superior" and that is correct to you?
So in a way it is saying that Hitler did no wrong as long as the majority agrees with him?
So the Japanese attempt at ethnic cleansing of chinese in the WW2 was good and correct ?
What a load of crap.
but these people they never tasted it before, they have been living like this for generations after generations. suddenly just demolishing their old laws and "making things right" in your sights might not help them, in fact it might kill them and they will not be appreciative of it.
its like you keep a pet bird for years, then suddenly you release it into the wild to give it a free life. the bird will die because it doesn't know how to survive.
its like the iraq war. taking out saddam is good, logically,
the USA tried to impose what they felt was right, a democratic govt etc..
but the people aren't used to it, now they're confused and there's chaos. -
well again you contradict your ownself in last paragraph. if it's open to debate, there's no point hammering the same old conviction of yours home by repeating it ad infinitum. it wont reach your target audience, simply because it can't.Originally posted by Spartans:That is a serious accusation and I can tell you that I am not anti-Islam.
It is just that the Sharia laws are extremely discriminative to the women in today context. There is no such thing as fairness when it comes to man and woman.
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you're contradicting your ownself! if "there is no such thing as fairness when it comes to men and woman", how can Sharia law be discriminative to women (or men for that matter)?Indeed I do regonise the differences between different cultures and their laws and norms. However, as human beings, we have to decide whether a punishment meted out is humane or not.
that is an inane thought you've expressed in words. no such things exist as "humane" or nonhumane ways. certain european countries have banned death penalty but usa carries it out. seeing how usa is singaporean's most sought after destination and nation which sg looks up to most, can you tell me which is the "humane" stance/law?
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The term 'humane punishment' again is open to debate and one's personal interpration. And it will be hard for the whole world to agree on a fundamental set of humane regulations/laws which can be served as a basis/guidelines for all countries' laws.
your logic is faulty i'm afraid my friend. -
What the hell are you talking about now? Since when did China come into the picture? What's with the chinese belonging to China? My my - what bigotry you have shown.Originally posted by protonhybrid:that is pathetic a reply frankly as pathetic as it can get. if you dont recognize any law that's different from yours, i can say the same about european laws that pervade almost all colonized countries' laws and it is going by that law (and language, and tech, and customs, and education, and so on) that you hold the saudi LAW itself guilty of being 'wrong'!
mind you england has no place in asia, nor do chinese have a place in south east asia/asean, then why not 'chinese' people who're obviously "chinese" as name suggests must move to china.
anything to contrary is wrong and going by your definition i shouldn't accept anything else that says the contrary.
I do agree chinese are chinese and belong to china. and maybe they do need to leave ASEAN to head for motherland-PRC. but that doesn't mean any law that doesn't agree with your own ideal view of a legal system, needs to change, or needs to be rejected by you as a proper one.
I was citing the history of human rights in non anglo settings, because apparently human rights to you is an exclusive european influence.
Like I said , I say what I want to , I state my opinion and if you don't like it , it's your problem .No need to show such bigotry about the overseas chinese diaspora.
What is your problem with USA? You seem to be quite anti american from what I can see or rather you seem to be anti western as well as anti former british colony from the disdain you have shown for Singapore and UK . -
Yes you've made your point. Please go and rape a woman then tell the copsOriginally posted by protonhybrid:well again you contradict your ownself in last paragraph. if it's open to debate, there's no point hammering the same old conviction of yours home by repeating it ad infinitum. it wont reach your target audience, simply because it can't.
your logic is faulty i'm afraid my friend. -
meh quite a circular argument friend you've got there.Originally posted by LatecomerX:It is the right of every human to define what is right and what is wrong. But isn't it blatantly wrong for the Arab guys to impose their definitions onto others and set laws that forbids women from meeting a male stranger, thereby denying the women's rights to act in a way which the women themselves do not define as wrong?
This, of course, is wrong if and only if my first statement is defied. If so, what gives them the right to set those laws in the first place?
for you to say arab guys are wrong to set laws for their own nation, doesn't it also imply that all nations are wrong in setting laws for their own selves? do you know what you're saying?
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bleah.. very double standard
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Originally posted by fymk:
yes, continue to blindly argue.
What hatred?
I am speaking about women's rights.
The facts are there. In a very heavily dominated male society , how could a woman possibly have a voice to leverage using the media? It was her lawyer , who is a well known human activist, who appealed her case ,as the newspaper reported. Her husband used the media to appeal her case. I don't see how she , being the lowly woman , could command a media presence in Saudi Arabia.
For him appealing her case and for her husband using the media, she got an increased number of lashes . Reassignment of blame to the victim again.
You are so blind to think that you are so right when you really do need to improve your comprehension.
[b] Their archaic law makes it right . However as a woman , it is repugnant and absolutely disgusting . I don't have to accept this as a woman and I don't think you have any right to tell me not to criticise any form of discrimination against my own gender.
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Consider yourself lucky you may never see the day the tables are turned and world pressure is upon singapore to conform to a male dominated society. It isn't wrong. It's just different. And because it's different from YOUR view, you treat it wrong. -
Protonhybrid - you are actually quite hypocritical in the sense that everything related to human rights ,that opposes your view is an anglo thing and should not be thrown into the whole discussion.
You criticise me for "imposing" on another country's culture just because I voice my opinions. What about you? What's with the anti Singaporean legal system view thread on aunt agony about medical practice?
You already came in with the set view that anything that is remotely connected to the west is called imposition and therefore wrong.
Then when you cannot win when examples of how women are treated in non anglo cultures, you imply that overseas Chinese diaspora should return to China since you know Singapore's majority is Chinese.
Where do you come from since you claim to know foreigners treated unfairly in Singapore?
or Are you just another one of those anti american fellas . Hey not all of us like America , so give us a break. -
bbc is indeed biased being an anglophone website. it promotes pro uk pro usa agenda as shown by their anti russian drivel among others recently. so it's not just pro western, it's only pro anglo.Originally posted by Spartans:The main difference is that our ladies appreciated the fact that our society prides itself on gender equality.[/quote]
hahaha is that a joke? no gender equality exists in any part of world that more than 2 mln people live in one community.Do you know that there are many women's groups in Saudi Arabia, made up of Arab women, fighting for the rights of Arab women?
what is this supposed to mean? men and women are not same how can they be equal? do you have an all men/women's team in most physical sports or mixed teams? weightlifting, boxing, wrestling, athletics, swimming, football, basketball, volleyball, cricket, hockey, sumo, karate, etc etc etc?
And majority of the Arab women want to have more right and freedom? Equal social standing as their male counterparts?
why are they segregated if they're equal?
you know there are many women's rights groups who want equal social standing as their male counterparts.
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Moreover, significant number of ordinary Arab men do support that women deserved more rights and freedom, eg driving cars.
Sources: BBC news websites. Some of the articles are written by Arab writers. Once again you can also argue that BBC, being a Western media, is biased. Up to one's own interpration. -
whats the email for?
scan and email the photo lah...see....now kena raped and almost got lashed.
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You guys do know that if you argue for Saudi (or Sharia) law you're basically advocating the legality of rape? Your mothers must be so proud
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Well in my view as a woman, it is wrong. Their laws but I don't have to agree with them - I can say what I think of it- repugnantly disgusting . Nothing wrong there right? My thoughts my opinions , all mine.Originally posted by deathbait:yes, continue to blindly argue.
Consider yourself lucky you may never see the day the tables are turned and world pressure is upon singapore to conform to a male dominated society. It isn't wrong. It's just different. And because it's different from YOUR view, you treat it wrong.
I don't see why my gender should be treated otherwise. Now tell me what so wrong with it?
Oh yeah blindly argue what? You already made a mistake with your comprehension of the situation which makes me laugh. -
geraldine, do you think premarital sex and abortion is acceptable?
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Maybe one day they will be anally violated and then be punished for being so. We can only hopeOriginally posted by fymk:Well in my view as a woman, it is wrong. Their laws but I don't have to agree with them - I can say what I think of it- repugnantly disgusting . Nothing wrong there right? My thoughts my opinions , all mine.
I don't see why my gender should be treated otherwise. Now tell me what so wrong with it?
Oh yeah blindly argue what? You already made a mistake with your comprehension of the situation which makes me laugh. -
Originally posted by Spartans:
how sad that the article posted by pymk concerns a kurdish family and their kurdish lovers. not arabs.
I have read from another thread that we have often mistaken Arabic traditions and Sharia laws. Arabic traditions and Sharia laws are too closely interwined that non-Arab like us got confused.
Honour-killing is an Arabic tradition, not Sharia laws. If I am not wrong, [b]honour-killing is prohibited under the Sharia laws. Numerous Islamic imans and scholars have already voiced their opinions that houour-killing is illegal.[/b]
second nowhere in the article is islam mentioned apart from the "human rights activits" own imaginative comments.
third i dont see why it should bother anybody in here. did you know how many rapes take place in anglophone usa for instance? does it even attract a criticism or a snide remark in this place. well somebody cited USA as an example of liberal, democratic and free country. -
It is as good as asking why there is a special olympics and why is there is normal olympics.Originally posted by protonhybrid:what is this supposed to mean? men and women are not same how can they be equal? do you have an all men/women's team in most physical sports or mixed teams? weightlifting, boxing, wrestling, athletics, swimming, football, basketball, volleyball, cricket, hockey, sumo, karate, etc etc etc?
why are they segregated if they're equal?
you know there are many women's rights groups who want equal social standing as their male counterparts.
Answer to that : Anatomical-physiological function of different categories of people.
But of course there are always women competing against men in areas where there is no physiological advantage. As in ...JOBS. -
Originally posted by fymk:
very heavily male dominated society? my friend kindly elaborate.
What hatred?
I am speaking about women's rights.
The facts are there. In a very heavily dominated male society , how could a woman possibly have a voice to leverage using the media? It was her lawyer , who is a well known human activist, who appealed her case ,as the newspaper reported. Her husband used the media to appeal her case. I don't see how she , being the lowly woman , could command a media presence in Saudi Arabia.
you're being facetious now. what do you expect? IF her husband/lawyer's appeal were successful, do you expect her husband/lawyer to be compensated or the victim herself? BY SAME REASONING, IF her husband/lawyer's appear were not successful, do you expect her husband/lawyer to be punished or her ownself?
For him appealing her case and for her husband using the media, she got an increased number of lashes . Reassignment of blame to the victim again.
You are so blind to think that you are so right when you really do need to improve your comprehension.
my friend dont act emotionally.
it's not fair to refer to their laws as archaic when singapore's own is derived from british one which is derived from roman ones. which is not recent.
[b] Their archaic law makes it right . However as a woman , it is repugnant and absolutely disgusting . I don't have to accept this as a woman and I don't think you have any right to tell me not to criticise any form of discrimination against my own gender.
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do you feel equally disgusted and repugnant about women not being able to go topless like men in public in anglophone countries or their colonies (like singapore eg)?
does that sound like discrimination against your own gender since men can go topless? -
Just shows how much time you spend comprehending simple things. You even spelt my name wrong.Originally posted by protonhybrid:how sad that the article posted by pymk concerns a kurdish family and their kurdish lovers. not arabs.
second nowhere in the article is islam mentioned apart from the "human rights activits" own imaginative comments.
third i dont see why it should bother anybody in here. did you know how many rapes take place in anglophone usa for instance? does it even attract a criticism or a snide remark in this place. well somebody cited USA as an example of liberal, democratic and free country.
I was replying sarcastically to OM . If you don't understand what sarcasm means, check the dictionary.
Rapes in USA and other western countries - they need evidence such as DNA etc. Not the mandatory 4 male muslim witnesses. So vast difference.
You want honor killing mentions in the Arab world ? Google Zahra Ezzo aka Zahra Al-Azza from Syria. Google Palestine honor killings or the Abu Ghanem case. I am pretty sure that it is not isolated to the kurds only. -
i dont see why/how honour killing is a 'problem'. it's certainly relevant only to certain cultures, but no matter what it's that particular culture's choice. no other culture need to impose any values on that culture.Originally posted by fymk:It is their belief therefore their values. I was very careful about the words I choose - notice I didn't say imposition of religion.
Those are examples especially the one about the Iman who is a religious leader.
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ok. what does it mean?
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The honor killing is not only inherent in the arabic culture , it is also done in Pakistan . Some of the hardliners actually believe that it is what Islam commands. Under the sharia law in most middle eastern countries , the person who honor kills , does not serve much of a sentence - maybe two to three months. So it just shows how prohibited it really is.
for example, if you were to 'betray' singapore (assuming you're singaporean) you'll be called a traitor and be murdered or executed. that's fanaticism if you ask me, but that doesn't get the flak in western press, so colonies also dont criticize this practice rather encourage it and defend it fiercely.
this doesn't mean that's a 'right' thing to do as you're killing humans for 'betrayal' which can equate to pi*sing on singapore's flag in public for instance. -
Originally posted by protonhybrid:
Either you are dumb or you are trying to twist something around. Saudi Arabia is heavily dominated by males - male judges, male clerics, male ruler etc. Show me a woman in power in Saudi Arabia.
very heavily male dominated society? my friend kindly elaborate.
So she is to be blamed for their actions even though she may have no part in it? Her husband and lawyer were speaking up about how unfair it was. So she gets the blame because they have spoken up?
you're being facetious now. what do you expect? IF her husband/lawyer's appeal were successful, do you expect her husband/lawyer to be compensated or the victim herself? BY SAME REASONING, IF her husband/lawyer's appear were not successful, do you expect her husband/lawyer to be punished or her ownself?
And you sir, have to quit being such a bigot especially with the remarks you made about Chinese .
my friend dont act emotionally.
Ah but the law has underwent changes to reflect the present. We don't see thieves being exiled to another country now , do we?
it's not fair to refer to their laws as archaic when singapore's own is derived from british one which is derived from roman ones. which is not recent.
I live in Australia. There are nude beaches. If a woman wishes to be topless , she can make her own choice and go to a nude beach ( an appointed venue) . The point being that she has a choice she can make on her own - she can be topless sunbathing without affecting others who are conservative.
do you feel equally disgusted and repugnant about women not being able to go topless like men in public in anglophone countries or their colonies (like singapore eg)?
does that sound like discrimination against your own gender since men can go topless?
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How is that in any way discriminating when you consider the other people in the environment?
I prefer being decently clothed what I feel comfortable in. It is the same choice I make as the woman who wants to sunbath topless. If a woman don't wish to see naked bodies or expose herself , she have the right not to go into a nude beach.
It ain't discrimination , it is choices one make in consideration of others. Same goes for Singapore.
So pick another discrimination topic . -
instead of writing a longwinded piece it'd have been better if you'd read the article instead. rape victim was punished for breaking a law of saudi arabia, that of being accompanied by a stranger/adult male! she's punished for that, not for being raped.Originally posted by silvernitrate:I'm a muslim, and sorry to say, i'm against that kind of punishment too.
I mean, I understand in history this was the common islamic law. Strict and straight. But the thing is, time change. And the sad thing is that people, man are trying to take advantage of this law against woman.
And for this i'm very sad about. I've read head of villagers raping daughters of some family because of reason such as causing disgrace to a certain family. This is something common. This is taking advantage of the rules of my beloved religion. The reason being that, the female victim will be very scared to approach the authorities because she will also be punished as seen like in this case.
I'm always heartbroken when I read something like this. I as a muslim man, will never want to treat someone unfairly. If this incident wasn't to get any media coverage, that punishment will have gone through.
Yet again, I think this itself is a debatable issue. Any muslim brothers/sisters care to shed light on this case. What is your view?
Perhaps we should at least show our views and share it with our fellow non-muslim friends in this forum.
if you being a muslim can't answer these topics well enough, it MAY SEEM in vain to hope for nonmuslims to know muslim issues well. -
So basically honor killing in the UK is alright in your books? Because it is part of the culture so the perpetrators have a right to go off scot free even though the UK is pretty specific about women rights? That is quite a sickening thought.Originally posted by protonhybrid:i dont see why/how honour killing is a 'problem'. it's certainly relevant only to certain cultures, but no matter what it's that particular culture's choice. no other culture need to impose any values on that culture.
for example, if you were to 'betray' singapore (assuming you're singaporean) you'll be called a traitor and be murdered or executed. that's fanaticism if you ask me, but that doesn't get the flak in western press, so colonies also dont criticize this practice rather encourage it and defend it fiercely.
this doesn't mean that's a 'right' thing to do as you're killing humans for 'betrayal' which can equate to pi*sing on singapore's flag in public for instance.
And reality speaking:
There was a pack rape case of a caucasian girl in Sydney by muslim brothers - the K brothers. They shielded themselves saying it was their culture and the girl was "tempting" them by her dressing. The court transcript was sickening.
So because they claim defence of their "culture"and "religious" upbringing, should they be let off the hook when they imposed themselves on another human being from ANOTHER CULTURE , who was unaware of their " culture".
Tell me who is in the wrong here? -
do you actually know what you're talking about or just replying for the heck of it?Originally posted by Short Ninja:What about the Pakistani Justice System or Bangladeshi Justice system or even Indonesian Justice system.....and the list go on and on.I feel it is time for reformasi for every religion then only can man evolve spiritually. -
Geraldine, do you think premarital sex and abortion is acceptable?