Saudi king 'pardons rape victim'
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I have not seen a war started over women's rights before. Women got their rights in the European countries by voicing out and the trend followed in modern countries.Originally posted by deathbait:if you cannot understand that we are not in a position to debate on another culture's laws, there is no ending this argument.
Wars have been started over self righteous views such as yours numerous times over the course of history.
Wars are not started because someone said something. Wars are started for the following three main reasons: Power, Money and Greed. And if we want to start talking about religious wars - they are primarily started for power - the power to convert.
Women's rights have neither the power, money nor greed to start a war. It is also not a religious reason to start a war. Women are just starting to stand up for themselves. If no woman speaks up , how the hell would men listen?
Likewise if nobody speaks up , then how would others know that they are unhappy. -
...just because something is culturally "correct" does not make it acceptable or logically and rationally correct...
...humans have a right to freedom in the pursuit of happiness as long as they do not step on other people's toes... and to prevent someone from doing something in case they harm you is atrocious...
...if they harm you, they deserve to be punished but you cannot stop them in case they harm you... unless you come from a tyrannical, barbaric societies... -
can you support your claims with facts? i dont think you even know what you just talked about. blurting out meaningless tripe isn't an indicator of "modern" personality.Originally posted by Spartans:U have to take note that the Arab women are insidiously fighting for their equal right and social standing. But you can be almost 100% sure non-Arab women have no intention of wearing stringent Arabic dress code. -
Originally posted by Spartans:
no matter whether the authors are nominally arab muslims or whoever else, they may have an axe or two to grind, they may have ulterior motives or despicable agendas hidden from public eye for all that we know. while they may not have such motives either.
[
From your post, we can easily see that you are just a chauvinistic male pig. I did mention some of the articles are written by non-Saudi-Arab Mulism scholars. Do not try to blindly brush away the evidence that Arab women want equal social standing by claiming BBC to be biased. NOw even Russia comes into the argument.
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however since they write for BBC a very biased anglo media outlet, they make their intentions clear. and to prove that bbc is pro anglo i drew the example of russia and bbc's constant antirusssian tripe once russia started asserting itself in world affairs lately thanks to vladimir putin.
and i dont want to stoop so low as to call you a pig but you should by now know what i think of you.
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... so if it makes the woman in question happy to spend time alone with a man in the car... that is her prerogative... and what right have the state to punish her? ... unless it is a tyrannical and barbaric state...
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Right , just because they are speaking against the practices, they must have an axe to grind now.Originally posted by protonhybrid:no matter whether the authors are nominally arab muslims or whoever else, they may have an axe or two to grind, they may have ulterior motives or despicable agendas hidden from public eye for all that we know. while they may not have such motives either.
however since they write for BBC a very biased anglo media outlet, they make their intentions clear. and to prove that bbc is pro anglo i drew the example of russia and bbc's constant antirusssian tripe once russia started asserting itself in world affairs lately thanks to vladimir putin.
and i dont want to stoop so low as to call you a pig but you should by now know what i think of you.
Russia is a western country near Asia. Why are you even bringing in as an anglo matter? It is in a political context - nothing more . Putin has a shady history of being linked to the KGB in the cold war years. It is not even about oppression. It is about mistrust. -
i think you'd better leave me to decide what i think and what i am rather than you calling me unpleasant names, same can be done to you fyi. this achieves nothing.Originally posted by fymk:Oh yes I am such a fanatical bigot who wants women rights . Your topless statement is worthless . Not many women want that type of right to be topless and walking around the streets. [b]Same rights pertain to something unrelated to anatomical differences such as the right to a job, the right to justice withou the singular need of 4 male witneses, the right to go wherever they want , the right to DRIVE.
Did I mention anything about colonising Saudi Arabia? Did I?[/quote]
first stop being emotional and try to be level headed and calm.
can you tell me why a woman can't go topless but a man can in public? and why is this 'unequal' treatment of genders NOT something you consider a concern for equality of sexes?
with the "bolded" part you made the most ridiculous comment (among other comments by you, not by others who think alike). since when does equal rights pertain to a select few sectors that YOU chose? equal rights = equal rights in everything. otherwise you need to qualify which field you're talking about.You are just a fanatical bigot who wants women subjugated to lesser beings. If you wish to have and treat a woman as your property, go to Saudi Arabia . There you can imprison your poor wife and do whatever you want to her while making sure that you have no MALE relatives around to watch.
also stop acting silly.
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Did I impose anything? Certainly not on Saudi Arabia . I voiced my opinion and I don't see how that IMPOSES on anyone except for men like you who think that a woman is a piece of property regardless of where they are in the world.
I hope that you will not have daughters because with a father like you , who needs family. [/b]you said you WILL impose your views IF you had the chance to do so on the whole world not just saudi arabia. that's probably worse than the worst colonialists be they britons french or dutch etc.
let's not get emotion or sidetrack from the original topic. be calm. -
Originally posted by fymk:
well romans may have ruled england and so this word of mouth may have reached other british colonies, but i certainly dont care much about romans (not disparaging them either).
Extrinsic asked me for my opinion.
Who asked for yours?
I am in Australia - do as the romans do .
In Singapore, I also do as the romans do . Singapore allows a certain degree of freedom on speeches made by WOMEN and MEN as long as it does not incite sedition or to the government's view , dissent .
Compare it to your precious Saudi Arabia - take women out of the picture, they don't have any right to anything - [b]no choice nothing .[/b] 
you're making more inane statements without foundation. you stated that singapore doesn't have freedom and it justifies it using certain reasons. and so does saudi arabia.
however you chose to castigate saudi as a country with "no choice nothing" while singapore in your eyes is still favourable as is australia which doesn't allow freedom of speech. only as much as it suits the government or majority anglo population. -
I am not emotional.Originally posted by protonhybrid:you said you WILL impose your views IF you had the chance to do so on the whole world not just saudi arabia. that's probably worse than the worst colonialists be they britons french or dutch etc.
let's not get emotion or sidetrack from the original topic. be calm.
I said I will impose equal women rights on the world if I could. Tell me what is so wrong and emotional about that?
As for your lousy argument of women not given the right to be topless, stop fulfilling your perverse fantasies.
How about talking about simple rights such as right to drive , right to a job, right to be whoever they want to with ?
I don't see how you can respect a woman who bears life to both genders by the views you have presented.
All you have done so far is to disguise women's rights as a western anglo thing to push a view that anyone speaking against the trial is encouraging some sort of colonialism when they maynot be . I am speaking up as a woman
It is about common sense - you don't mistreat another human being because of their gender or race or religion.
Like I said and I will say it again. Your mother must be so proud of you to profess such views on oppressing her own gender.
Great on your attempt at disguising me as some anglo oppressor , it just shows how men like you will attempt to drown out voices of women who are oppressed through another excuse, let alone women who are not oppressed. -
Maybe your understanding of English is poor .Originally posted by protonhybrid:well romans may have ruled england and so this word of mouth may have reached other british colonies, but i certainly dont care much about romans (not disparaging them either).
you're making more inane statements without foundation. you stated that singapore doesn't have freedom and it justifies it using certain reasons. and so does saudi arabia.
however you chose to castigate saudi as a country with "no choice nothing" while singapore in your eyes is still favourable as is australia which doesn't allow freedom of speech. only as much as it suits the government or majority anglo population.
The issue I am bringing up is the blatant discrimination of women in Saudi Arabia. Has nothing to do with anglos or your topless issue.
Women there are not treated like free human beings as the men there.
You could stop bringing in your garbagy view about this being an anglo issue. It is about women's rights . Those women are traded like a piece of property, guarded like one and what else they barely even have rights . period.
Like I said it so many times , their laws make it right in their land of women oppression but to a woman like me , it is wrong. Take it or leave it. -
Do you think I care about how you think of me. To me, you are nothing but a CMP. Your mum will be very sad to ever give birth to you. End of story.Originally posted by protonhybrid:no matter whether the authors are nominally arab muslims or whoever else, they may have an axe or two to grind, they may have ulterior motives or despicable agendas hidden from public eye for all that we know. while they may not have such motives either.
however since they write for BBC a very biased anglo media outlet, they make their intentions clear. and to prove that bbc is pro anglo i drew the example of russia and bbc's constant antirusssian tripe once russia started asserting itself in world affairs lately thanks to vladimir putin.
and i dont want to stoop so low as to call you a pig but you should by now know what i think of you. -
For certain, person of high standing in logical analysis does not refer you.Originally posted by protonhybrid:i'm afraid you've to try to be more civilized and diplomatic in your discourse for this type of awkward behaviour doesn't endear you to any person of high standing in logical analysis. -
Originally posted by fymk:
it's the modern time now for every moment in history (it's always the present my friend, no matter whether this is 2007 CE or 1007 CE or 3007 CE). the present is built on the past as is the future in case you didn't know. they aren't disparate, they're interlinked.
wow I must be lucky then since I am colored, a woman and employed in Australia.
I don't give a crap about their past . It's the modern times now. In case you don't know - there are Equal Employment Opportunities commissioners installed around Australia to ensure equity to all .
i do hear about racist riots against lebanese among others in ozland, what di you equality commissioners do? were they drowned by "lebbos" (as oz's disparagingly call lebanese youths in ozland) in the sea waves?
but it's from them that you not only obtain your entertainment but media and news and views. as do most anglophone countries and their colonies. hence it affects your perceptions views and "ideals"!
I don't really give a crap about USA , ain't my country . I don't like their foreign policies - they are absolute crap but even USA has something about it that is good like entertainment from hollywood etc.
I'd urge you to increase your knowledge. your current level is too low to carry out a pleasant knowledgable conversation.
[b]All I know , I enjoy the freedom of being a woman, having to right to walk about without my father guarding me from the other males as though they are ANIMALS, have a right to employment and career pathways, have a choice of having a family and being a career woman etc.
many saudi women also work and are employed but in their own way. without some sort of authority be it govt' local community police parents etc etc etc YOU TOO would feel threatened. pray tell if the situation you described about yourself also applies in usa. and would you say that your chance of being raped in usa being higher than in saudi arabia (and presumably ozland), will you cherish this "freedom"?I prefer to see women having choices over what they want to do . If they feel that it is necessary for them to be with a male relative at all times because of their religion - their choice. If they feel they like a guy and they want to know him better thru a date - their choice.
I think you're being too presumptuous to make a fair judgment. what makes you an ambassador for all women everywhere, of all times?
what makes you think you've right to decide about others' lack or otherwise of choice or freedom? what makes you think YOU are the one most fit to decide whether ALL women have choice. would you include deranged women in that list too? if not, doesn't it contradict your own initial assertions? if yes, do you see where such a society will head towards?
If a muslim girl wants to don her hijab , by all means . If a muslim girl doesn't want to don her hijab , by all means again. All she needs to worry is about her family but even they cannot force her with life and death threats, not some law that lashes her for not wearing an abaya. Even the muslims in Singapore have that freedom. I don't mind a woman wearing whatever she wants as long as she has a choice. I am not some anglophile who sees an abaya and yell oppression. Some women made a choice to don it , fine with me. The key thing for me is that " as long as the women have a choice" .
that's your opinion. unfortunately in singapore more so than other anglophone countries, women earn less, are less represented in top positions in all sectors of society, have almost no decision making powers or presence, are castigated for baring their chests in public (For instance) as opposed to men, while at the same time, encouraged to bare more body parts than men in public as official attires.
Say what you will about anglo countries, they may be all bad to you but women's rights is something they have good going for them amongst all the things they do. Singapore too.
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I'm afraid I am rather sick of your antics.Originally posted by protonhybrid:can you support your claims with facts? i dont think you even know what you just talked about. blurting out meaningless tripe isn't an indicator of "modern" personality.
By simply brushing everything away as angophone influence, you have determined that all western media are considered as unworthy. By your standard, all western media reports cannot be used as evidence to support this debate. I do agree, to a certain extent, western media do tuned their reports in such a way to support Western agenda. However, we must note not all reports are written in this way. Certainly not for reports of discrimination against women.
Do you think any Saudi media will report on the cases of women's right groups? And for your information, Saudi government has a stringent control over its media. -
stop bringing up my relatives into this discussion you *****.Originally posted by fymk:Protonhybrid cannot attack on discrimination against women, all he can do is plaster a label of colonialism on it and call it western oppression .
Bring in Cyrus the Great of Persia- and he says that there is no improvement in UN documents.
Bring in a country like Singapore - he says we are colonial servants.
Everything about his argument is circular.
Basically this guy wants discrimination against women to stand. How he faces his mother , I have no idea. Bash his mom up if she wants freedom?
LOL
i didn't start bring any of your relatives into this discussion.
if you have no substantial arguments dont bring them here. if you do present them. -
Ho Ching is actually a woman and she actually controls temasek holdings in Singapore. Go dispute that.Originally posted by protonhybrid:that's your opinion. unfortunately in singapore more so than other anglophone countries, women earn less, are less represented in top positions in all sectors of society, have almost no decision making powers or presence, are castigated for baring their chests in public (For instance) as opposed to men, while at the same time, encouraged to bare more body parts than men in public as official attires.
Yes there are few women who can garner the earning power and position but at least they have a chance that they can do so. Some do not wish to because they made a choice to commit to a family. Fact remains : they have the choice.
Show me one Saudi Arabian woman who is in a top position in Saudi Arabia?
You claim that women are made to wear skimpy clothing. Are they? No one made them work in hooters . If they make a choice to work in a place that demands they wear a skimpy outfit , they have a choice to find another job.
Choice again.
As for women earning less and having no decision power , oh I think Ho Ching can make alot of decisions.
There are other women in top positions in Singapore with alot of decision making power , not just Ho Ching.
So try stating that there is discrimination against women in Saudi Arabia - that is a fact. -
yet with these admissions you can't admit that women and men are not equal, not same and expecting ANY society to implement such inane policies will be disastrous! somehow you do manage to admit that women are different from men in physique.Originally posted by fymk:I am talking about discrimination against women . I want women to be treated as men are treated. You are talking about a law that discriminates against women. So here I am. Like I said their law makes it right for them but it does not make it right in MY opinion AS a WOMAN.
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yet when i bring up topics on sports or armed forces where women are treated different from men in YOUR current/former countries you JUSTIFY them. do you see the contradiction?
same can be said about segregating men/women in public space and public jobs etc etc. not only contact sports. also why would women NOT want equality (like you, who is such a staunch supporter of equality of genders) in all arenas when they themselves want equality in all arenas?
hey if a woman wishes to compete against a guy in sports with the same rules, her choice but it also depends on the person who organises it.
There is a reason why they segregate certain sports out - no one wants to hear accusations of molestations in contact sports or physiological advantages. Less the trouble , better.
A BLATANT CONTRADICTION, mate!
[quote]
Physiologically ,women differ from men. The equality in your eyes can only be achieved by nature and nature have to make everyone andrygynous . Everyone capable of bearing children. Everyone capable of standing up to pee with the same appendage on everyone else.
however on a separate but related note, you did say racial discrimination is to be avoided. but different races differ in their "physiology" too. and why do you think then should there be equal participation of all races/free participation of all races in physical sports? as it happens in saudi, ozland, uk, usa, sg, british colonies and almost everywhere else.
different races DO differ "physiologically". -
Personally I dun think Ho Ching is a good example. She becomes the chairwoman of Temasek Holding simply because of her father-in-law.Originally posted by fymk:Ho Ching is actually a woman and she actually controls temasek holdings in Singapore. Go dispute that.
Yes there are few women who can garner the earning power and position but at least they have a chance that they can do so. Some do not wish to because they made a choice to commit to a family. Fact remains : they have the choice.
Show me one Saudi Arabian woman who is in a top position in Saudi Arabia?
You claim that women are made to wear skimpy clothing. Are they? No one made them work in hooters . If they make a choice to work in a place that demands they wear a skimpy outfit , they have a choice to find another job.
Choice again.
As for women earning less and having no decision power , oh I think Ho Ching can make alot of decisions.
There are other women in top positions in Singapore with alot of decision making power , not just Ho Ching.
So try stating that there is discrimination against women in Saudi Arabia - that is a fact. -
Personally I think this is one of those 'khaki pants' arguments. Uniforms change. Times change. Laws must change as well and Sharia laws have been as rigid as they were when 1st enacted
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Originally posted by protonhybrid:it's the modern time now for every moment in history (it's always the present my friend, no matter whether this is 2007 CE or 1007 CE or 3007 CE). the present is built on the past as is the future in case you didn't know. they aren't disparate, they're interlinked.
i do hear about racist riots against lebanese among others in ozland, what di you equality commissioners do? were they drowned by "lebbos" (as oz's disparagingly call lebanese youths in ozland) in the sea waves? [/quote]
A response on lebanese youths harassing their women. You don't know all the facts. Lebanese gangs terrorise certain parts of Sydney. You can't go down walking in certain areas without middle eastern looking boys yelling slurs at you . That is from my experience walking to a friends place with my female companions.
The racial riots started over sexual harassment of women in the beaches by middle eastern gangs. The turkish owner of one restaurant known to the locals was untouched if I recalled.
And how about the retaliation of the "lebbos" as they call themselves on Marouba Beach residents who had nothing to do with the riots? You want to use a sword but you forgot that it is a double edged sword.
Racism goes both ways. And as for those lebbo's - wait til you hear about the Ashfield rapes transcript . Some lebanese errant youths are happy to call themselves lebbos.
It is also from them , I know how the media sensationalises things. My ideals came from my family upbringing , TV was not my mother. My parents taught me that I am as good as any boy and better if I want to be.
but it's from them that you not only obtain your entertainment but media and news and views. as do most anglophone countries and their colonies. hence it affects your perceptions views and "ideals"!
As for your relatives, I don't see any self respecting guy who loves his mother for bringing him up , professing your type of view.
Low office positions no doubt or else there will be an uproar. Did you happen to mention that law and engineering is off limits to women?
I'd urge you to increase your knowledge. your current level is too low to carry out a pleasant knowledgable conversation.
many saudi women also work and are employed but in their own way. without some sort of authority be it govt' local community police parents etc etc etc YOU TOO would feel threatened. pray tell if the situation you described about yourself also applies in usa. and would you say that your chance of being raped in usa being higher than in saudi arabia (and presumably ozland), will you cherish this "freedom"?
You keep talking about rape . My chances of being raped in Saudi Arabia is zero because I won't be entering that sort of country.
And what makes you think you are? Are you a woman?
I think you're being too presumptuous to make a fair judgment. what makes you an ambassador for all women everywhere, of all times?
Any one with reasonable intelligence will know what I am talking about.
what makes you think you've right to decide about others' lack or otherwise of choice or freedom? what makes you think YOU are the one most fit to decide whether ALL women have choice. would you include deranged women in that list too? if not, doesn't it contradict your own initial assertions? if yes, do you see where such a society will head towards?
Judging by your choice of words, one can only assume that you have a prejudice with women talking against you.
Women with mental illnesses have rights too. If they do anything to harm others or themselves , the laws do protect their actions as well as add restrictions to prevent them from injuring others and themselves.
In Saudi Arabia, if a woman is mad and she kills a man , will she be killed or spared? Killed is most likely the answer. -
you're chinese presumably. some people may say it's an absolute atrocity for chinese people to live anywhere other than in china, which is great in its own way.Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:.. what other countries did or did not do in the past or the present.... it is an atrocity to sentence a woman to 6 months jail and 200 strokes for spending time with a guy in a car... crapz... big time....
however not all people agree. i think this should be the lesson to your reply. -
Love the way you twisted my argument.Originally posted by protonhybrid:yet with these admissions you can't admit that women and men are not equal, not same and expecting ANY society to implement such inane policies will be disastrous! somehow you do manage to admit that women are different from men in physique.
however on a separate but related note, you did say racial discrimination is to be avoided. but different races differ in their "physiology" too. and why do you think then should there be equal participation of all races/free participation of all races in physical sports? as it happens in saudi, ozland, uk, usa, sg, british colonies and almost everywhere else.
different races DO differ "physiologically".
How physiologically do races differ? I would think we have the same number of organs , same color of blood, need oxygen to survive - all human races is made up of males and females . Just different looks to adapt to the climate of our ancestors but it is slight difference. When a surgeon operates on a person - he doesn't bother about reading a book on physiology of a chinese or african or arab or caucasian.
How physiologically do genders differ? The built , men cannot bear children but women can . Men cannot breast feed their children while women can.
Go read up on physiology . You need to actually understand what physiology means before you embark on an argument with me. -
No link. what a lame reply. If you are lacking of intelligent reply, dun bother to post.Originally posted by protonhybrid:you're chinese presumably. some people may say it's an absolute atrocity for chinese people to live anywhere other than in china, which is great in its own way.
however not all people agree. i think this should be the lesson to your reply.
You are not only guilty of gender discrimination, you are also guilty of racial discrimination by your above reply.
Always link Chinese have to be in China? what sort of logic is it? Not relevant to the topic discussed at all -
This guy has been insinuating racial replies like that while attacking women rights.Originally posted by Spartans:No link. what a lame reply. If you are lacking of intelligent reply, dun bother to post.
You are not only guilty of gender discrimination, you are also guilty of racial discrimination by your above reply.
Always link Chinese have to be in China? what sort of logic is it? Not relevant to the topic discussed at all
So really push him into the right direction and he may show up as the worst racist and sexist person we ever had on the forums. -
Originally posted by fymk:
those were examples of gender discrimination. what does it matter which particular case you bring up, if it exists so it does. no point trying to measure up the relatively less "evil" discrimination. and if it pleases you
Low wages - why would you compare low wages to rape? No one in their right minds will do that . I earn the same as the guy ranked in the same position in Australia . So what low wages? Oh I actually won a job interview in Australia and the other person competing against me was a male. So what can you say about that?
foreign maids in singapore are often subject to rapes and other abuses, and the abusers often get away scot free. many a singaporean men also go to batam, bintan elsewhere for such "pleasures" as do many ppl to thailand's pattaya etc.
well in this case why the preference for men in NS? isn't this gender discrimination? why dont' you cry foul now?
Oh Singapore? They give more to the men who served NS = that is the right of NS men - I am not about to argue against that - those guys gave 2.5 years of their lives serving the country. They deserve every penny of it and more for their years of service.
well what's your point. then that sort of equalizes things all around the world.
Even rape statistics everywhere is underreported due to the victim feeling that she is to be blamed , shamed and facing her attacker again triggers horrible memories. Rape is about taking a person's control away.Saudi Arabia - the only way to justice is to procure 4 male muslim witnesses who WITNESS the rape. If a woman reports it , she is not only subjected to humiliation and shaming her family for being "dishonoured", she is also akin to getting charged with adultery if she cannot produce 4 male muslim witnesses who saw the act take place. The woman is expected to fight til death to "protect " her honor.
well what about singapore? what happens to foreign maids who get raped duped abused and not paid for months in singapore? and also i did mention the case of medical malpractice, the law, the doctors, the hospitals, the media/govt (IF they get involved, not likely) ALL favour the doctors and disfavours the FOREIGNER (of nonchinese, nonanglo background) victim. why is that? what can the victim do to PROVE that he's being wronged and to acquire compensation for it?
Modernised Countries - the victim can seek justice by going to the police . Getting a rape kit test done, crime scene investigation if any ,and then going to trial.Rape tends to be specially heinous because it is totally tears a woman inside out emotionally. Be it a Saudi Arabian woman or a caucasian woman or a chinese woman
well what happened in this case. were the rapists punished? a resounding yes. can't you see that?
"i read somewhere" isn't a good source or reliable one. you need to be assured that your source is reliable. when you do, bring this argument forward.
[b]I read somewhere that in the Arab world, they have to jail those poor women who have been raped so that their families don't get to them. Even if the family wants them out ,they sign an assurance that they will not kill the rape victim. Even if they do sign the assurance , they still kill her anyway for shaming them. And what does that get them? 2-3 months in prison for the killer and maybe a huge celebration in the village.
did this woman's husband kill this woman? or was he behind the victim throughout? i think you're too blinded by your own fanatic ideas to see the trees for the forest.
Why they kill the rape victim in the Arab world? Because if she shamed the family, her relatives will be octracised - her brothers ridiculed. So her blood cleanses all.
Take it on the other side , if a woman kills a man in the Arab world even defending herself, she dies anyways. [/b]