Best country to live in in the entire world. NORWAY!
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Money and work a small part of it???Originally posted by CX:Well, I actually like it here... the $$$ problems and the stress is just a small part of it really...
Ultimately, its not just abt how much u make or how much tax dollars u're getting back in welfare. Its about what u have going on here...
My work's here, my family's here, my friends are here (well, those who haven't moved on anyway
), still, those who have moved on still come back once in awhile and say how much they miss the food and the vibes.
Why must we see ourselves as "indispensable"? who is anyway? in this day and age...
what's more important is to ensure that we are relevant! sure, u'll have indos and pinos and indians and chinamen working here... so? like it or not, immigration and emigration are facts of life... pple are moving now like never before.
Last i remembered, my grandfather was a chinaman with little to his name... he came and worked and eventually raised a family and here I am... it would be hypocritical of me to suggest that pple who migrated here do not belong and have no place here...
Our place in the universe is up to us to find... And like I said... I like it here.
An average person spends 1/3 of his life sleeping, out of the remaining 2/3 of his time he spends 39% of that time at work. To classify something that takes up to almost 40% of a person's productive awake time as being "a small part of it" is something else.
Maybe you are part of the elite, that's why work is inconsequential to you.
Money has the highest standing in Singapore, simple reason is, if you don't have money for your basic necessities (e.g. mortgage, food, clothing, transport, medical), no government body is going to give you money for your survival, as we are not a welfare state. I wish we could all survive on love, self-esteem and families, but the biological truth is that we can't.
If you belong to the elite class, then obviously it's not about how much you make, because you do not have to maintain a basic human existence. It's not about how much taxes you pay and welfare claims? If you don't have a job, you definitely won't get welfare from the government, you probably can't survive. Humans strive to survive even under extreme conditions, if you don't have food, clothing and medical, you can't survive at all. Maybe you should tell us what it's all about, if it's not about survival bread and butter issue. In Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs Theory, most human beings would satisfy their physiological needs at the base of the pyramid first before considering his other needs above that level. Maybe you are different from us.
If I were to leave Singapore, I guess the only thing I would miss is the food, nothing else.
It's correct, nobody is indispensable, the world still spins if the world population dies off. Then why are all our Ministers indispensable? They need to pay them high salaries because they can't do without them?
Your grandfather came here while Singapore was starting out, with nothing, I respect your grandfather for contributing to the economy of Singapore. But what have these new immigrants sacrificed? Other than their political freedom. I give you an analogy.
When Mr. Lee started his company (Singapore), the company was poor and without resources. He got a group of workers to labour for his company, the company was poor so he could not afford to pay them high salaries but gave them shares instead, these workers relented because they have faith in the vision of this CEO.
The workers strive and laboured through a few decades, finally the company was profitable and making money. But the CEO said, he can't distribute the profits in the form of dividends to the workers cum shareholders. Why? It's because he has to maintain reserves to cushion the impact of any adverse business cycle. So these workers cum shareholders end up working their lives away without any prospects of retiring with the dividends they had hoped to get.
Finally some of these workers cum shareholders died off, some are still working their butt off in their old age (washing toilets, "recycling" cans from rubbish bins). These workers transferred their shares of the company to their children, hoping that maybe the children will reap the rewards from the dividends.
BUT, now the CEO of the company wants to issue new shares to many foreign workers at zero cost (same as the first batch of workers). e.g. if the existing shares were 1,000 shares and the company has a total value of $1,000,000. The old workers are entitled to $1,000 per share. With the new share issue of another 1,000, the value of the share would be $500.
Is this company being fair to it's existing shareholders? -
Your reasons are so juvenile. Some of it is geograhical.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:I felt the need to let you digest one thing at a time.
Since you insist, try getting your head around the idea of 'cherishing what you have'. Exchange classmates, white friends and an author who liked it here had these to say:
- You don't have to fuss over suitable clothing for the weather or preparing for sudden cold spells;
- Everything is located within a convenient distance from home relative to larger countries;
- It's easy to take for granted that you won't be bombed or shot;
- You can cross the roads in relative safety;
- You don't yet have African and Middle-Eastern immigrants trying to impose their way of life on you;
- Public services don't grind to a halt due to union strikes;
- For all its flaws, you received a pretty sound education;
- You get sunshine all year 'round;
- You and your family can walk around in the dead of the night and sleep in near peace;
- There's plenty of good food to be had and cultures to be experienced;
And the list can go on. You don't need a fat wallet to enjoy those as a citizen. Fine if you value some things more than the above - accept that they may mean much more to someone else. Not every developed country enjoys all of them, and they have their own attractions too.
Heck, all some people need to be happy are the love and support of their family members and friends. There are people who don't earn much, and maybe have never stepped into a pub before, but they take pride in getting by on what they have. Some even do volunteer work themselves.
I do not deny the existence of people who are struggling to make ends meet - but not all of them rant incessantly like some people do, claiming to help the former this way.
I'm not advocating your idea of a good life, which seems to involve lots of hedonism and idle pursuits. It's not everyone's idea, which may encompass a happy existence in which one finds contentment and meaning. But if you think you'll find much more happiness in material gain and liberal democracy, all's well then - except that you, with your fragile little narrow mind that hears only what it wants to hear, aren't practising what you preach.
You can't or don't want to beat immigrants at their game, so you want to join them. But do you seriously think you'll be more welcome elsewhere just because it was harder for you to get work in the country?
Firstly though, you ought to get out of your wee bubble - do some charity work, visit foreign blogs and forums, read up, talk to people from all over the world and open your mind. After that, you can move away, set something in motion, accept what you do have or continue sitting on your arse moaning. The migrant workers actually got off their backsides to make better things happen for themselves - what about you?
Are you sure our education system is sound? How come we have so little local university graduates that we have to rely on foreign talents en masse?
Public services grinding to a halt due to protest and picketting is a way to ensure that workers in these sectors are not being marginalised. The unions in these countries ensure the basic sustenance of these workers. Where else in the world do you find unions being controlled by the government. The protest though it might cause some hindrance, it will only serve to make those inconvenience by it, cherish it more.
Since when did I suggest that hedonism and idle pursuits as the pillar of good life. I suggest you lay off the crack and booze, start reading and comprehending my statements instead of imagining things. Since when I said that materialism is the route to happiness? Maybe you can cite me, else don't shove words into my mouth. Please lay off the crack and booze, it's not doing you brain any good.
Beating immigrants at their game? I don't think that is possibility, they can squeeze 10 of these workers in a HDB room meant for one. They have lower standards for everything, that's why you find lots of recalls for products Made in China. Sometimes idiots who don't understand economics advocated that lowballing is the ONLY way to go, there are other alternatives. But I guess you are obtuse to any such ideas because you are economically theoretically inept.
What makes you think that I have not done charity or met others from another country? I converse to people from all walks of life, taxi drivers, housewifes, office workers, construction workers, Ivy League Grads who have decided to stay in US, grads from Oz who have decided to call Australia home, etc. The feedback I get from my friends overseas is, life is much better over there despite the higher taxes they are paying. I would like to quote things geographical (like you), but I realised that those points are invalid, if you hadn't damaged your brain by drinking and smoking crack, you would have realised it too. Like the person above who responded to your post. Alcohol consumption reduces the level of oxygen in your blood and brain.
You are so dead set about competition with China for low cost wages. Can I ask you a question. How long do you think it takes for China to increase the wages to Singapore's level? Considering that western industrialisation has only started to place place along the coastal cities. 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years or 50 years? China after close to one half decade of modern economic reform by Deng XiaoPing has only managed a GDP per capita of $1,500 (approx.). Do you have any idea how big is 1.5 billion?
Competing with China for low wage labour is like banging your head against the wall. Of course, if your education system was not built to nurture students cognitively to constructive ideas (to be researchers, entrepreneurs and inventors), what more can we do other than to compete with low wage labourers for low wage jobs. -
Originally posted by maurizio13:
Nope... Just an average wage earner who earns enough to take care of my family and get by and I like my work so I'm actually quite happy with my current situation.
Money and work a small part of it???
An average person spends 1/3 of his life sleeping, out of the remaining 2/3 of his time he spends 39% of that time at work. To classify something that takes up to almost 40% of a person's productive awake time as being "a small part of it" is something else.
Maybe you are part of the elite, that's why work is inconsequential to you.
I don't dispute your breakdown. But isn't that the norm for an average working adult in most developed countries?
U mean Norwegians do not need to work? We have established that they do work, do enjoy a reasonable level of productivity and are well rounded, happy pple.
So what's the problem here? A Norwegian work 8 hrs a day and feel happier than a Singaporean who works the same 8 hrs? Why? Because other things make him/her feel happy?
Happiness is a complex issue and work is just a small part of it.Money has the highest standing in Singapore, simple reason is, if you don't have money for your basic necessities (e.g. mortgage, food, clothing, transport, medical), no government body is going to give you money for your survival, as we are not a welfare state. I wish we could all survive on love, self-esteem and families, but the biological truth is that we can't.
I'm not suggesting that u eat air. And I have raised the issue of social safety nets in Singapore before. I think its sorely lacking and more should be done to help those who have fallen on hard times, esp those who are in that position through no fault of their own.If you belong to the elite class, then obviously it's not about how much you make, because you do not have to maintain a basic human existence. It's not about how much taxes you pay and welfare claims? If you don't have a job, you definitely won't get welfare from the government, you probably can't survive. Humans strive to survive even under extreme conditions, if you don't have food, clothing and medical, you can't survive at all. Maybe you should tell us what it's all about, if it's not about survival bread and butter issue. In Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs Theory, most human beings would satisfy their physiological needs at the base of the pyramid first before considering his other needs above that level. Maybe you are different from us.
Am I different from everyone else or am I just different from YOU?
By lumping everyone into the bottom rung of maslow's hierarchy of needs, u are simply abusing the theory to suit your overly simple arguments.
The fact of the matter is, very few Singaporeans are in the lowest rung. Most of us, including YOU, live lives that are quite comfortable.
We may not be at the level of "self-actualization" but be fair... Its not like we're too poor to have friends, too poor to have a self esteem, too poor to date and too poor to have sex.
Interesting that you brought up maslow's hierarchy of needs because it is the ideal model to illustrate that happiness is a complex state of mind and varies for different pple at different stages of their lives.If I were to leave Singapore, I guess the only thing I would miss is the food, nothing else.
You are quite right. I never said that they were indispensable. But it baffles me why they are returned to office every time... I'll honestly tell u that they're not my favourite pple...
It's correct, nobody is indispensable, the world still spins if the world population dies off. Then why are all our Ministers indispensable? They need to pay them high salaries because they can't do without them?
Now, that aside. If they are indeed dispensable, then do u think that opposition candidates who win a GE in the distant future deserves that kind of salary?
I certainly hope so and if they are, I will be happy to pay taxes and contribute to the best cabinet that money can buy.
Now, if they want to make a principled stand and work for less, then I applaud their altruism and patriotism. But I still wouldn't mind paying for a good cabinet minister.Your grandfather came here while Singapore was starting out, with nothing, I respect your grandfather for contributing to the economy of Singapore. But what have these new immigrants sacrificed? Other than their political freedom. I give you an analogy.
My grandfather came in the 1930s, when the Brits were still around. He lived through the Japs occupation and later, merger, separation and independence.
..................
BUT, now the CEO of the company wants to issue new shares to many foreign workers at zero cost (same as the first batch of workers). e.g. if the existing shares were 1,000 shares and the company has a total value of $1,000,000. The old workers are entitled to $1,000 per share. With the new share issue of another 1,000, the value of the share would be $500.
By the time the PAP was in power, he had already started a family and capably making a healthy living to feed his growing family.
Through the years, the family benefited from economic opportunities, education, security, good infrastructures and ultimately, national pride in being Singaporeans.
My grandfather, like most of his generation, is a Singaporean by error rather than by design. That was the time where China became communist and many overseas Chinese couldn't "return".
This country is not just about exclusive privileges. Its not a country club. Its about opportunities and meritocracy, for citizens as well as non-citizens who come to live, and through their direct or indirect ways, contribute.
And grow up. Our citizenship is not a share certificate. U can't use it to cash out your "share" of the cash. Your "share" of the economic pie is not based on your citizenship. Its based on your level of skill, productivity and relevance. -
Why should reasons based on geography be disqualified? And you're the one who can't stop talking about my friends earning big money and blowing it at the pub when you know sod-all about what they do. And I never mentioned competing with migrant workers on wages.
You're missing the point entirely in your argument. I'm saying that foreigners have more than just financial reasons for enjoying life here. Your friends move away from Singapore and enjoy life elsewhere for both financial and non-financial reasons as well. When you've seen the darker side of life in your own home, and the positive reasons mean nothing to you anymore, why wouldn't you? Try talking to some white people as well and get their side of the story.Originally posted by maurizio13:Your reasons are so juvenile. Some of it is geograhical.
Are you sure our education system is sound? How come we have so little local university graduates that we have to rely on foreign talents en masse?
Public services grinding to a halt due to protest and picketting is a way to ensure that workers in these sectors are not being marginalised. The unions in these countries ensure the basic sustenance of these workers. Where else in the world do you find unions being controlled by the government. The protest though it might cause some hindrance, it will only serve to make those inconvenience by it, cherish it more.
Since when did I suggest that hedonism and idle pursuits as the pillar of good life. I suggest you lay off the crack and booze, start reading and comprehending my statements instead of imagining things. Since when I said that materialism is the route to happiness? Maybe you can cite me, else don't shove words into my mouth. Please lay off the crack and booze, it's not doing you brain any good.
Beating immigrants at their game? I don't think that is possibility, they can squeeze 10 of these workers in a HDB room meant for one. They have lower standards for everything, that's why you find lots of recalls for products Made in China. Sometimes idiots who don't understand economics advocated that lowballing is the ONLY way to go, there are other alternatives. But I guess you are obtuse to any such ideas because you are economically theoretically inept.
What makes you think that I have not done charity or met others from another country? I converse to people from all walks of life, taxi drivers, housewifes, office workers, construction workers, Ivy League Grads who have decided to stay in US, grads from Oz who have decided to call Australia home, etc. The feedback I get from my friends overseas is, life is much better over there despite the higher taxes they are paying. I would like to quote things geographical (like you), but I realised that those points are invalid, if you hadn't damaged your brain by drinking and smoking crack, you would have realised it too. Like the person above who responded to your post. Alcohol consumption reduces the level of oxygen in your blood and brain.
You are so dead set about competition with China for low cost wages. Can I ask you a question. How long do you think it takes for China to increase the wages to Singapore's level? Considering that western industrialisation has only started to place place along the coastal cities. 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years or 50 years? China after close to one half decade of modern economic reform by Deng XiaoPing has only managed a GDP per capita of $1,500 (approx.). Do you have any idea how big is 1.5 billion?
Competing with China for low wage labour is like banging your head against the wall. Of course, if your education system was not built to nurture students cognitively to constructive ideas (to be researchers, entrepreneurs and inventors), what more can we do other than to compete with low wage labourers for low wage jobs. -
Originally posted by CX:Replies in Darkblue
Nope... Just an average wage earner who earns enough to take care of my family and get by and I like my work so I'm actually quite happy with my current situation.
I don't dispute your breakdown. But isn't that the norm for an average working adult in most developed countries?
U mean Norwegians do not need to work? We have established that they do work, do enjoy a reasonable level of productivity and are well rounded, happy pple.
So what's the problem here? A Norwegian work 8 hrs a day and feel happier than a Singaporean who works the same 8 hrs? Why? Because other things make him/her feel happy?
Happiness is a complex issue and work is just a small part of it.
If you don't dispute my breakdown, then maybe you should correct your initial statement of "Well, I actually like it here... the $$$ problems and the stress is just a small part of it really... " on 12 January 2008 · 02:38 AM. Money which is directly linked to work is a major part of life in Singapore, without work, there won't be any life. If you consider it a "small part", maybe you should stop work and see how you can manage your daily lifestyle. Fancy calling something that takes up close to 40% of your waking time "small".
It's the norm in developed countries, but the way you classify small and unimportant is horrendous. Try stop working for 1 year and tell me how small the change is to your lifestyle.
Who said Norwegians don't work? You or me? But you have to understand that the way income is distributed in the population of Norway and Singapore are totally worlds apart. In Norway, the income difference isn't as stark as Singapore because taxes are used as a measure to redistribute income back to the lower income earners, so as to help them to maintain a decent standard of living. In Singapore, if you are jobless and out of work, you are on your own. When job market in Singapore is tight, one has to contend that he/she will be out of job for a period of time. How does an unemployed survive? Have you ever been out of job? What about structural unemployment where the economy undergoes a drastic change to restructure? Definitely during such time, more will be out of job for a longer period of time. How does the government ensure the sustenance of these people? Do they provide some basic necessities during such period of needs? Or are they more engrossed in their motive of increasing their own salaries to benefit themselves?
Norwegians who worked 8 hours a day end up being more happy because at the end of the month when all the bills come, they know that they are abled to afford it. When they end up unemployed they know that the government will provide some assistance to them for them to pick themselves up. When they end up in hospital without any savings in the bank account, they can be sure that the goverment will take care of their welfare and provide some basic healthcare.
I won't engage you in a physiological disccusion of how serotonin and dopamine triggers off the receptors. But what you mentioned about being happy is subjective, maybe we should just stick to objective things and not veer off this path. One person could be happy going out to the beach to sun, while another could be happy staying indoors, these are all subjective issues, BUT both of these rational people would definitely be happy if they receive $1 million in lottery. Just stick to the objective view.
I'm not suggesting that u eat air. And I have raised the issue of social safety nets in Singapore before. I think its sorely lacking and more should be done to help those who have fallen on hard times, esp those who are in that position through no fault of their own.
I agree with you on this part, more should be done about social welfare. Some of these workers are unemployed not of their own volition, but as a result of market restructuring (manufacturing to service oriented industry). Just because one moron publicly announced to the world that we are not a welfare state and he does not want to admit to the mistake as he is NEVER WRONG, does not mean that we have to acquiesce his fallacious statement. He is NOT GOD you know. Humans are not infallible, we are not perfect and we do commit mistakes once in a while.
Am I different from everyone else or am I just different from YOU?
By lumping everyone into the bottom rung of maslow's hierarchy of needs, u are simply abusing the theory to suit your overly simple arguments.
The fact of the matter is, very few Singaporeans are in the lowest rung. Most of us, including YOU, live lives that are quite comfortable.
We may not be at the level of "self-actualization" but be fair... Its not like we're too poor to have friends, too poor to have a self esteem, too poor to date and too poor to have sex.
Interesting that you brought up maslow's hierarchy of needs because it is the ideal model to illustrate that happiness is a complex state of mind and varies for different pple at different stages of their lives.
How am I abusing the theory? Maybe you can elaborate? Why I chose to used Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs Theory (MHNT) is simple, because you kept emphasizing the importance of family and friends, which is the 3rd level in MHNT, we need to satisfy the 1st and 2nd level before we can even fathom the 3rd level. Thus money which is directly linked to our physiological needs is like food, housing, clothing and warmth is still the most fundamental needs. -
Originally posted by CX:Replies in Darkblue
You are quite right. I never said that they were indispensable. But it baffles me why they are returned to office every time... I'll honestly tell u that they're not my favourite pple...
Now, that aside. If they are indeed dispensable, then do u think that opposition candidates who win a GE in the distant future deserves that kind of salary?
I certainly hope so and if they are, I will be happy to pay taxes and contribute to the best cabinet that money can buy.
Now, if they want to make a principled stand and work for less, then I applaud their altruism and patriotism. But I still wouldn't mind paying for a good cabinet minister.
I do not agree with the current pay structure whether it be P4P Ministers or opposition Ministers. They should peg the ministerial salary to the lowest 10% of workers (e.g. say 50 times the lowest 10% low wage worker's salary), in that way, if the poor gets richer, the minister's salary also increases. That means that they are effective in narrowing the wage gap (Gini Coefficient) and maintaining a decent standard of living for ALL Singaporeans. Instead of the current method, increasing the income gap, making the rich wealthier increases the ministerial salary.
My grandfather came in the 1930s, when the Brits were still around. He lived through the Japs occupation and later, merger, separation and independence.
By the time the PAP was in power, he had already started a family and capably making a healthy living to feed his growing family.
Through the years, the family benefited from economic opportunities, education, security, good infrastructures and ultimately, national pride in being Singaporeans.
My grandfather, like most of his generation, is a Singaporean by error rather than by design. That was the time where China became communist and many overseas Chinese couldn't "return".
This country is not just about exclusive privileges. Its not a country club. Its about opportunities and meritocracy, for citizens as well as non-citizens who come to live, and through their direct or indirect ways, contribute.
And grow up. Our citizenship is not a share certificate. U can't use it to cash out your "share" of the cash. Your "share" of the economic pie is not based on your citizenship. Its based on your level of skill, productivity and relevance.
Meritocracy through cronyism and nepotism? I would hardly call putting your daughter in law, your sons and your close relatives in top positions as meritocratic. Meritocratic only to the lower and middle stuctures of the industry. Top GLCs and GICs are still dominated by family and friends. Singapore is one big happy family.
I was just using an analogy to explain something to you. Citizenship is not a share certificate where you can cash out. But you have to agree that there are certain advantages of living in a high GDP per capita country. Would any rational individual consider of migrating from a high GDP per capita country to a lower GDP per capita country? By bringing in more foreign talents to compete with locals only seeks to lower the wages of those low wage workers thereby affecting their standard of living. Our share of the "economic pie" is NOT only based on the current skill, productivity and relevance, BUT the importance of the current infrastructure which the past generation has built upon. Which is similar to my analogy about a startup company issuing shares to workers. Would anybody's skill level in Singapore, productivity and relevance be useful in a place like say maybe Nepal or Ethiopia, where there are no proper infrastructure. -
I will leave you to your devices on why geography is an invalid point.Originally posted by Kuali Baba:Why should reasons based on geography be disqualified? And you're the one who can't stop talking about my friends earning big money and blowing it at the pub when you know sod-all about what they do. And I never mentioned competing with migrant workers on wages.
You're missing the point entirely in your argument. I'm saying that foreigners have more than just financial reasons for enjoying life here. Your friends move away from Singapore and enjoy life elsewhere for both financial and non-financial reasons as well. When you've seen the darker side of life in your own home, and the positive reasons mean nothing to you anymore, why wouldn't you? Try talking to some white people as well and get their side of the story.
Yes Guru Kuali Baba, you and your posse in the pub with their bottles of booze should know everything there is to know about life. I know nothing about life. -
And you're still fixated on the pubbing just because I mentioned meeting a friend there once.Originally posted by maurizio13:I will leave you to your devices on why geography is an invalid point.
Yes Guru Kuali Baba, you and your posse in the pub with their bottles of booze should know everything there is to know about life. I know nothing about life.
I'll let other fair- and open-minded people judge for themselves.
-
If you don't dispute my breakdown, then maybe you should correct your initial statement of "Well, I actually like it here... the $$$ problems and the stress is just a small part of it really... " on 12 January 2008 · 02:38 AM. Money which is directly linked to work is a major part of life in Singapore, without work, there won't be any life. If you consider it a "small part", maybe you should stop work and see how you can manage your daily lifestyle. Fancy calling something that takes up close to 40% of your waking time "small".
Work is really a small part of my life. It is true that we spend 8 hrs or more on it... But it is simply not true that just because u spend time on it, it is a big determinant of happiness.
It's the norm in developed countries, but the way you classify small and unimportant is horrendous. Try stop working for 1 year and tell me how small the change is to your lifestyle.
It is really a matter of perspective.
e.g. I spend 42 hrs a week in the office. Time crawls sometimes. I spend 8 hrs on a weekend engaging in my hobby. Time flies. I spent less time on my hobby than my work. Nevertheless, my hobby contributed to my happiness to a larger extent, even though it is my job that allows me to earn money to engage in my hobby.
What's wrong with that? I never said that work is "unimportant". But work alone doesn't make u happy. It is merely an enabler.
That's why I say, the work and the stress is really a small part of it because I like all the other things that I have here: my friends, my family, all the things I like to do.
If all I had was money and no family, no friends and no passion for any hobby, I'll be miserable.
In the same way, if i had no work and no money, I'll be similarly miserable.
But that's the whole point isn't it? Its never just about work and money.How am I abusing the theory? Maybe you can elaborate? Why I chose to used Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs Theory (MHNT) is simple, because you kept emphasizing the importance of family and friends, which is the 3rd level in MHNT, we need to satisfy the 1st and 2nd level before we can even fathom the 3rd level. Thus money which is directly linked to our physiological needs is like food, housing, clothing and warmth is still the most fundamental needs.
Because most of us are simply NOT stuck in the first level.
To use a biblical reference, "man does not live on bread alone."
Layer 1 to 4 are "deficiency needs". U always need them and u feel affected when u do not have them in sufficient quantities.
They exist in everyone in varying degrees of priorities and when such needs are not met, the individual re-prioritizes his resources to meet those needs. They do not permanently regress down the pyramid and other factors that are "classified" as being in the higher layers are still in focus. Re-prioritized perhaps, but STILL in focus.
e.g. You are hungry. You believe that it is wrong to steal. You do not want to borrow money cos u believe that it affects friendship. You don't want to beg for food cos its embarrassing. You have money to buy food.
So u go buy food! It doesn't mean that u forget about self-esteem, morality and friendship just because u're hungry.
Now, if we flip the situation around. All things remaining unchanged, You now have NO MONEY to buy food. The next best course would be to borrow money rather than to steal food, beg or go hungry.
Friendship has been re-prioritized, but u may still care about morality and self-esteem.
Nobody lends u money? Then u consider begging or stealing... But once u have food, u may not want to continue doing that... Its bad for your image, morality and self esteem. Also, u may get caught.
Its only the very base and very dire of the lot that gets stuck in layer 1 and it is human nature to care to varying degrees about other things other than subsistence.
And that pretty much sums of pple everywhere... not just in SG or Norway, but in most developed countries where the pple are educated and there are opportunities for socio-economic advancements.
So why does it bother u so much that I am able to find happiness within my limited means? -
it is how much you can bring home that is important. the tax rate snt.Originally posted by fishbuff:their income tax is 49% -
Good point.
I do not agree with the current pay structure whether it be P4P Ministers or opposition Ministers. They should peg the ministerial salary to the lowest 10% of workers (e.g. say 50 times the lowest 10% low wage worker's salary), in that way, if the poor gets richer, the minister's salary also increases. That means that they are effective in narrowing the wage gap (Gini Coefficient) and maintaining a decent standard of living for ALL Singaporeans. Instead of the current method, increasing the income gap, making the rich wealthier increases the ministerial salary.Meritocracy through cronyism and nepotism? I would hardly call putting your daughter in law, your sons and your close relatives in top positions as meritocratic. Meritocratic only to the lower and middle stuctures of the industry. Top GLCs and GICs are still dominated by family and friends. Singapore is one big happy family.
We can agree to disagree on your point about nepotism. It is a fact that they are there, though its not like every government dept is headed by "royalty" or "nobility".
I was just using an analogy to explain something to you. Citizenship is not a share certificate where you can cash out. But you have to agree that there are certain advantages of living in a high GDP per capita country. Would any rational individual consider of migrating from a high GDP per capita country to a lower GDP per capita country? By bringing in more foreign talents to compete with locals only seeks to lower the wages of those low wage workers thereby affecting their standard of living.
Another issue related to this would be whether "scholars" selected based on school grades are the best pple to run govt depts. But thats a subject for another day.
Then we really should bring back the Brits and reward them for their trouble.
Our share of the "economic pie" is NOT only based on the current skill, productivity and relevance, BUT the importance of the current infrastructure which the past generation has built upon. Which is similar to my analogy about a startup company issuing shares to workers.Would anybody's skill level in Singapore, productivity and relevance be useful in a place like say maybe Nepal or Ethiopia, where there are no proper infrastructure.
Actually, it would help. The recipient economy would benefit through technological transfer and brain gain. Not immediately and certainly not due to 1 worker, but with critical mass, Yes, it helps a lot.
With the right skills and the right resources, skilled pple can help to build infrastructures and transfer know-how.
Frankly, if all Singaporeans can do is to staff labour intensive factories and work like robots for a high wage, then we're truly screwed. -
orignally posted by Kualia Baba
2. they're not as crammed and lacking in 'breathing space' as singapore. incidentally almost all of world's most densely populated countries or jurisdictions are chinese/oriental.
You may disagree on how I differentiated between each of them - fine. Let me reply to your rebuttal:
2. Not in the suburbs and rural areas
3, 9. Some Brits also share the same sentiments
4. Pedestrian safety - drivers don't wait for you to cross the road everywhere in the world
5. Accuse me of racism if you will, but the hostile sentiment exists, and the events are actually happening. The migrants here aren't exactly clamouring as the others do for Sharia law and segregation yet.
6. Hope you don't begrudge the workers for the interruptions when you travel
7. There's the slant in social studies/history, the lack of innovation and the high workload and expectations but you got a good grounding in math and the science.
10. Who ever talked about fortes or this being unique? I meant that you get to partake in the festivities of 4 Asian ethnic groups and 4 or 5 different major religions.
1, 8, and everything above. We can split hairs all we want but that'd be missing the point - all these represent a change for the people who visit us, be it the climate, the relative efficiency or safety, and they haven't got the worst deal around. Since they're here they appreciate what was previously alien to them.
3,9. some brits? not enough mate. also take note of the other regions i mentioned. japan, nordic countries, gcc countries among others.
4 in most anglophone countries i think they do. the 'culture' may/may not be the same everywhere. and again there are exceptions in singapore too.
5. accuse me of racism if you will, but singapore itself is populated by a 'people' who dont' belong there. the majority in the neighbouring countries almost invariably resent them for their eating habits, lack of demeanour, money grubbing tactics, cut throat politics and policies, among others.
6. if you're talking about strikes amongst public sector transport workers then yes it can be a pain. but without such rights they may be cheated. it's a judgment call imo. whereas in singapore foreign workers are systematically categorically and without exception harassed treated badly and denigrated.
7. dire lack of those factors you mentioned. and good points. nonetheless those aren't the only ones.
10. mate the neighbouring country of singapore that it pits itself as a rival against, has greater diversity for one. among many others.
1,8 etc yes they're subjective and not worth discussing much in an already 'heated' environment. but i think pretty much everyone agrees, singapore has nothing unique of its own. it's only in its own propaganda that singapore is unique. -
I'm talking about what they like here, not what attracted them here. It's not worthwhile discussing the latter in this segment - how many people actually do research on the best place in the world to live and work in? A good number of them are here because of job openings or postings, or invitations from friends or relatives.Originally posted by protonhybrid:2. they're not as crammed and lacking in 'breathing space' as singapore. incidentally almost all of world's most densely populated countries or jurisdictions are chinese/oriental.
3,9. some brits? not enough mate. also take note of the other regions i mentioned. japan, nordic countries, gcc countries among others.
4 in most anglophone countries i think they do. the 'culture' may/may not be the same everywhere. and again there are exceptions in singapore too.
5. accuse me of racism if you will, but singapore itself is populated by a 'people' who dont' belong there. the majority in the neighbouring countries almost invariably resent them for their eating habits, lack of demeanour, money grubbing tactics, cut throat politics and policies, among others.
6. if you're talking about strikes amongst public sector transport workers then yes it can be a pain. but without such rights they may be cheated. it's a judgment call imo. whereas in singapore foreign workers are systematically categorically and without exception harassed treated badly and denigrated.
7. dire lack of those factors you mentioned. and good points. nonetheless those aren't the only ones.
10. mate the neighbouring country of singapore that it pits itself as a rival against, has greater diversity for one. among many others.
1,8 etc yes they're subjective and not worth discussing much in an already 'heated' environment. but i think pretty much everyone agrees, singapore has nothing unique of its own. it's only in its own propaganda that singapore is unique.
Obviously if you're going to compare point-for-point we won't appear unique. Look at the package, the combination instead. Bear that and the previous point in mind.
Incidentally, chum, only 3 of the 10 most densely populated regions are in East/S.E. Asia. Take a proper look at the list, aye? And while you're at it trying running into some yobs as well as gits telling you to convert your practices to Middle-Eastern ones (not ignoring some of the Christian types). -
If they do that, I guess you have a chance to be Minister, or do you fall even lower than the bottom 10% of workers?Originally posted by maurizio13:I do not agree with the current pay structure whether it be P4P Ministers or opposition Ministers. They should peg the ministerial salary to the lowest 10% of workers (e.g. say 50 times the lowest 10% low wage worker's salary), in that way, if the poor gets richer, the minister's salary also increases. That means that they are effective in narrowing the wage gap (Gini Coefficient) and maintaining a decent standard of living for ALL Singaporeans. Instead of the current method, increasing the income gap, making the rich wealthier increases the ministerial salary.
People are not equally talented or able. Those who can contribute more or possess a skill that is more highly desired deserve more. It's a question of whether Singaporeans prefer to be ruled by the best elites or the worst losers. And there is always maurizio when you run out of losers -
So much information. So much intelligence. So much reason. So much passion. So much restraint. So many valid points of view.
I have my own opinion but it pales in comparison to the depth of this thread.
I give this thread 10/10. -
Norway?
High taxes with generous benefits.
But, how many of you know that Norway is extremely rich because of oil?
Are you even aware of this fact:
"Almost a quarter -- around 44 billion USD -- of Norway's GDP comes oil revenue taken from the North Sea. Every day, 3.1 million barrels of oil are produced at the Norwegian Continental Shelf - and most of it is exported. This maked Norway the fifth largest exporter and the third largest producer of oil in the world. "
If I were Norweigian, I would be asking my Govt., with so much revenue from oil, why are taxes still so high?
See the following:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/1023276.stm
http://www.norway.org/News/archive/2003/200304statoil.htm -
Perhaps they have Singaporean Ministers there?Originally posted by onlooker123:Norway?
High taxes with generous benefits.
But, how many of you know that Norway is extremely rich because of oil?
Are you even aware of this fact:
"Almost a quarter -- around 44 billion USD -- of Norway's GDP comes oil revenue taken from the North Sea. Every day, 3.1 million barrels of oil are produced at the Norwegian Continental Shelf - and most of it is exported. This maked Norway the fifth largest exporter and the third largest producer of oil in the world. "
If I were Norweigian, I would be asking my Govt., with so much revenue from oil, why are taxes still so high?
See the following:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/1023276.stm
http://www.norway.org/News/archive/2003/200304statoil.htm -
Originally posted by Kuali Baba:
what expats to singapore like abt singapore doesn't/shudn't matter 2 singaporeans. should it?
I'm talking about what they like here, not what attracted them here. It's not worthwhile discussing the latter in this segment - how many people actually do research on the best place in the world to live and work in? A good number of them are here because of job openings or postings, or invitations from friends or relatives.
thank you for agreeing with me - singapore has nothing unique about it! if you're talking about the package, can you name me one city, one neighbourhood, one district, one state, one territory, one province, and one country that is not unique?
Obviously if you're going to compare point-for-point we won't appear unique. Look at the package, the combination instead. Bear that and the previous point in mind.
come again! what is this bold part supposed to mean?
Incidentally, chum, only 3 of the 10 most densely populated regions are in East/S.E. Asia. Take a proper look at the list, aye? And while you're at it trying running into some yobs as well as gits telling you to convert your practices to Middle-Eastern ones (not ignoring some of the Christian types).
and hong kong macau, taiwan, korea, japan, singapore all are very densely populated countries afaik. so is pearl river delta, eastern china in fact. so yeah pretty much all orientals live 'dense', even indonesia, i think sumatra or java or some other island houses around 50% of population. very dense indeed are the orientals. -
It helps you remember what you've got, and you must be some non- or sub-human entity if nothing matters to you.Originally posted by protonhybrid:what expats to singapore like abt singapore doesn't/shudn't matter 2 singaporeans. should it?
thank you for agreeing with me - singapore has nothing unique about it! if you're talking about the package, can you name me one city, one neighbourhood, one district, one state, one territory, one province, and one country that is not unique?
come again! what is this bold part supposed to mean?
and hong kong macau, taiwan, korea, japan, singapore all are very densely populated countries afaik. so is pearl river delta, eastern china in fact. so yeah pretty much all orientals live 'dense', even indonesia, i think sumatra or java or some other island houses around 50% of population. very dense indeed are the orientals.
Stupid questions like the second one don't deserve a proper answer.
The list is even on Wikipedia, go look it up yourself. I saw the one that goes by countries, but if you want to talk about cities and administrative regions, fine, we're not even on that. That list is also on Wiki.
I shall save you a last ounce of dignity by letting you figure out the bold bit by yourself.