HDB's mistake but she's made to pay - 4 years later
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We go down a very dark path if we should follow in the footsteps of your stream of thought.Originally posted by HyperFocal:... I feel, whatever the views on this matter, the crux of it was that HDB admitted to the mistake, the mistake WAS made by HDB...
... the problem in this regard, is that the Law here, is very modifiable & largely protects the administration more than the people...
... besides, what's $18,000.00 lost to one individual compared to the many BILLIONS lost to screwed up investment abroad using people's money??
First of all, mistakes are made everyday. That's why we have contracts. They reduce the margin of error to near zero.
Secondly, the mistake was made on both sides. HDB made the mistake of paying 18k, and the lady made the mistake of taking the money.
The law here, like EVERYWHERE protects the contract. Stop twisting it around to make it sound so sinister. The contract is the only thing protected here. The woman was not entitled to 18k, and HDB is entitled to take it back. Doesn't get more clear cut than that.
Finally, the investments made by the national fund has no correlation to this case. You are just deliberately stringing them together to form a strawman. That is just pure malice. You are not just sinking to the level of the administration you claim to be corrupt, you are beneath it.
Whether the government's managed funds are making or losing money has no bearing on whether the woman needs to return the 18k. I would just love to see you accept your boss's explanation that because you made money in the markets this month, he need not bother paying you the wages you are due. -
... this is like saying; an adult tells a kid to steal, the kid made the mistake of taking the adult's instruction to steal.. hence the kid is guilty?Originally posted by deathbait:We go down a very dark path if we should follow in the footsteps of your stream of thought.
First of all, mistakes are made everyday. That's why we have contracts. They reduce the margin of error to near zero.
Secondly, the mistake was made on both sides. HDB made the mistake of paying 18k, and the lady made the mistake of taking the money.
The law here, like EVERYWHERE protects the contract. Stop twisting it around to make it sound so sinister. The contract is the only thing protected here. The woman was not entitled to 18k, and HDB is entitled to take it back. Doesn't get more clear cut than that.
Finally, the investments made by the national fund has no correlation to this case. You are just deliberately stringing them together to form a strawman. That is just pure malice. You are not just sinking to the level of the administration you claim to be corrupt, you are beneath it.
Whether the government's managed funds are making or losing money has no bearing on whether the woman needs to return the 18k. I would just love to see you accept your boss's explanation that because you made money in the markets this month, he need not bother paying you the wages you are due.
... oh, speaking of Dark Paths - aren't we all in the DARK all the time, anyways ?
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no it's nothing like that.Originally posted by HyperFocal:... this is like saying; an adult tells a kid to steal, the kid made the mistake of taking the adult's instruction to steal.. hence the kid is guilty?
... oh, speaking of Dark Paths - aren't we all in the DARK all the time, anyways ?
No idea how you found anything similar in your analogy.
As for dark paths and being in the dark....I have to pity how far you must have fallen to be as desperate as you seem to be to find anything to disparage the government.
Once again, this is no secretive evil plot. The woman owes money. She mistakenly took the money and HDB mistakenly gave it to her. Now it needs to be resolved the only way it can. She was not cheated. If anything, she should feel lucky she is not brought up to task for ignoring the HDB letters the last 4 years. -
... yah hor.. a woman her age should fully understand Law & thus be acutely aware of what she is signing, and the same goes for her daughter who urged her to take up such a kind offer...Originally posted by deathbait:no it's nothing like that.
No idea how you found anything similar in your analogy.
As for dark paths and being in the dark....I have to pity how far you must have fallen to be as desperate as you seem to be to find anything to disparage the government.
Once again, this is no secretive evil plot. The woman owes money. She mistakenly took the money and HDB mistakenly gave it to her. Now it needs to be resolved the only way it can. She was not cheated. If anything, she should feel lucky she is not brought up to task for ignoring the HDB letters the last 4 years. -
do you need to be lawyer to realise that 18,000 dollars have suddenly pop up mysteriously into your account?Originally posted by HyperFocal:... yah hor.. a woman her age should fully understand Law & thus be acutely aware of what she is signing, and the same goes for her daughter who urged her to take up such a kind offer...
i dont know if woman of her age understand law... but i can guarantee you... if the bank accidentally debit her account of even 10 dollar... she will scream all the way to the bank.... -
However HDB being an organisation with millions of dollars pouring into it, should be more compassionate to the lady . Yes she should pay it back but at least they should give her more payment options rather than to demand it back in 21 days- and then it is funnier when they demand it in 3-6 months instalment . It's ridiculous considering that she does not have a job at 75 years old- do they expect business for her to pop up suddenly and she gets 3k per month to pay it off?Originally posted by deathbait:you're twisting this around.
The old lady benefited from the mistake 4 years ago. There is no grey area here. She has to pay it back.
It's like if you accidentally put 18k in my account now, and then try to call me to get it back for 4 years. 4 years later, you finally corner me and demand the 18k back. Why should I be made to suffer for YOUR mistake, I ask you. Does this sound right?
Just because HDB is an organisation and not a person does not make the debt any less legit.
So if she declares bankruptcy , what then?
Out of curiosity , if she dies , does the debt pass on to her daughters if let's say her estate is zero?
Actually my granny went through the same thing in the 1980s . Telecoms back then forgot to bill her correctly for 5 years . They discovered their mistake and tried to reclaim back the money from her. She sat outside Telecoms office and made alot of noise . Every day faithfully, she will pack up her kopi and bread and sit out side there telling the world what telecoms tried to do to a poor old lady. They called the police , the policeman also don't want to go disturb an old lady .
In the end , they agreed to let her pay 2 dollars per week until her 600 dollar bill is paid up, just so they can stop her from sitting outside their office and going around telling people how cruel the govt and telecoms is to her. My dad offered to pay it off for her but she said it was telecom's fault so they have to deal with HER ....hahaha. Oh ya she did pay it off. -
sounds like your granny was a horrible woman who knew exactly what she was doing : exploiting the public's compassion for an apparently fragile old woman.
What happened to paying off your debts? What, she never noticed she didn't ever get a phone bill? Please. -
Who are you to say anything about her? She paid off her debt to telecoms at an installment at 2 dollars per week . She was just cheesed off that Telecoms wanted payment within 30 days. In those days , 600 dollars was alot of money.Originally posted by deathbait:sounds like your granny was a horrible woman who knew exactly what she was doing : exploiting the public's compassion for an apparently fragile old woman.
What happened to paying off your debts? What, she never noticed she didn't ever get a phone bill? Please.
She was an old woman who can't read english. Just proves to show how much of an arrogant high horse you are riding . In those days, people were not so educated as we are now.
Anything in a letter with a dollar sign - she asks my uncle or my mother to read for her. If they tell her it is a bill - she will go pay it . She manages her affairs like that since the colonial times - before her kids were literate - she asked the neighbours' son. -
really, i have no sympathy for ppl who manipulate public sentiment for their own personal gain.
She owed the money. She had the resources to pay for it(your dad). But she also knew the public would be on her side because she was old.
But then I shouldn't be surprised that you are supportive of such actions, based on your previous posts. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, does it? -
Look if you want to play high horse with me - get off the horse.Originally posted by deathbait:really, i have no sympathy for ppl who manipulate public sentiment for their own personal gain.
She owed the money. She had the resources to pay for it(your dad). But she also knew the public would be on her side because she was old.
But then I shouldn't be surprised that you are supportive of such actions, based on your previous posts. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, does it?
First of all , it was telecom's mistake. My grandma is not the type who get someone to clean up the mess after her. But with people like you , it is easy to see that you rather get someone to clean up your mess first than to try working out on your own. Is that how you survive? Ask daddy and mommy for money first to sort out your debts rather than to pursue another course of action?
If it was so wrong , why did they not arrest her and throw her into jail? She didn't try to skim off not paying - she tried to get them to be reasonable (they said no to her installment when she asked nicely) and she didn't see a need for my father to pay for it.
In the end , both parties got what they wanted - Telecoms got the bill paid up with her own choice of instalment. -
... you must be a GM ...Originally posted by deathbait:really, i have no sympathy for ppl who manipulate public sentiment for their own personal gain.
She owed the money. She had the resources to pay for it(your dad). But she also knew the public would be on her side because she was old.
But then I shouldn't be surprised that you are supportive of such actions, based on your previous posts. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, does it?
.. Government Mouthpiece... -
In the first place, the telecom personnel responsible for ther screw up should be penalized.Originally posted by deathbait:sounds like your granny was a horrible woman who knew exactly what she was doing : exploiting the public's compassion for an apparently fragile old woman.
What happened to paying off your debts? What, she never noticed she didn't ever get a phone bill? Please. -
And deathbait, from I remember , my grandma didn't gain personally from it.
She walked faithfully to their office every week to pay her 2 dollars on top of her bill. Not once did telecoms have to hound her for payment after that.
So if you want to hammer my grandmother for being proud, poor and refusing my father's help, you have no right. You can sit on your ivory seat and play judge on people who didn't stand to gain anything at all. -
Those days , everything manual not so computerised. So screw ups are bound to happen ...but hey to deathbait ......it was 1980s with pentium M processors while for the rest of us , it was DOS for the well to do and typewriters for the rest.Originally posted by will4:In the first place, the telecom personnel responsible for ther screw up should be penalized. -
lol oh please
paying by interest free installment is a big difference from paying in lump sum.
You just try getting an interest free installment on anything...there's a reason why it's not often offered.
Just because her opponent was a government entity does not automatically make her right. Ditto for being old. Or for being illiterate.
The rules for playing in the society is simple. You follow the rules and pay your dues. Rules are only effective when everyone follows them. Everytime someone chips off a small advantage from the system for private gain like in your grandmother's case, the system fails a little more. Worse still, everytime someone gains, someone else loses.
And what happens when the old rules no longer prevent petty theft from the system? More rules are needed. It is no coincidence that Singapore has so many minor laws to prevent seemingly useless things. Singaporeans are UGLY. We are. No amount of patroitism will change that fact. WE ARE UGLY.
And so, yes I look down with disdain at people like your grandmother who goes out of her way to gain that small bit of advantage from the system. Or the driver who thinks it's harmless to run a red light just because there is no traffic in the middle of the night.
It's these little things that contribute to the society you ppl seem to dislike so much. To the governance that seems to rule with an iron fist. I'm sorry to burst your bubble all. But the government is usually trying to save us from ourselves.
Ask yourself if you don't steal from the commons every single day. Running red lights. Jaywalking. Littering. The list goes on. -
.. hmmm... seems to have gone OT somewhere... -
Also, I like how you automatically assume I'm younger than you. Unfortunately for you, I actually have recollections of the 1980s. The pentium M processors didn't come out till the mid 1990s.Originally posted by fymk:Those days , everything manual not so computerised. So screw ups are bound to happen ...but hey to deathbait ......it was 1980s with pentium M processors while for the rest of us , it was DOS for the well to do and typewriters for the rest. -
How do u expect an old lady to pay in one big lump? Obviously telecom realized their mistake and gave her the chance to pay by installment.Originally posted by deathbait:lol oh please
paying by interest free installment is a big difference from paying in lump sum.
You just try getting an interest free installment on anything...there's a reason why it's not often offered.
Just because her opponent was a government entity does not automatically make her right. Ditto for being old. Or for being illiterate.
The rules for playing in the society is simple. You follow the rules and pay your dues. Rules are only effective when everyone follows them. Everytime someone chips off a small advantage from the system for private gain like in your grandmother's case, the system fails a little more. Worse still, everytime someone gains, someone else loses.
And what happens when the old rules no longer prevent petty theft from the system? More rules are needed. It is no coincidence that Singapore has so many minor laws to prevent seemingly useless things. Singaporeans are UGLY. We are. No amount of patroitism will change that fact. WE ARE UGLY.
And so, yes I look down with disdain at people like your grandmother who goes out of her way to gain that small bit of advantage from the system. Or the driver who thinks it's harmless to run a red light just because there is no traffic in the middle of the night.
It's these little things that contribute to the society you ppl seem to dislike so much. To the governance that seems to rule with an iron fist. I'm sorry to burst your bubble all. But the government is usually trying to save us from ourselves.
Ask yourself if you don't steal from the commons every single day. Running red lights. Jaywalking. Littering. The list goes on.
Speaking about taking advantages, seen many bad cases in which local serving NS decided to AWOL to other countries when on leave or act crazy to get an easier vocation. -
I tot what GM, tot you got some inside information.Originally posted by HyperFocal:... you must be a GM ...
.. Government Mouthpiece... -
Slightly, but not totally. This kinda applies to the original topic as well. The "small, weak individual" bullied by the "cold, big organisation" myth is one of my pet peeves.Originally posted by HyperFocal:.. hmmm... seems to have gone OT somewhere...
I hate it when ppl take advantage of other's compassion for personal gain. It's downright immoral. -
Originally posted by maurizio13:I tot what GM, tot you got some inside information.
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If you recall, her son offered to pay for her.Originally posted by will4:How do u expect an old lady to pay in one big lump? Obviously telecom realized their mistake and gave her the chance to pay by installment.
Speaking about taking advantages, seen many bad cases in which local serving NS decided to AWOL to other countries when on leave or act crazy to get an easier vocation.
If pride is the point here, any old fashioned chinese would tell you it is better to be in debt to your son than to outsiders.
Yes, NS is full of examples of this kind of behavior. Report sick before guard duty comes to mind. -
Son-in-law.Originally posted by deathbait:If you recall, her son offered to pay for her.
If pride is the point here, any old fashioned chinese would tell you it is better to be in debt to your son than to outsiders.
Yes, NS is full of examples of this kind of behavior. Report sick before guard duty comes to mind.
Not son.
get it right. -
You platoon mates tua (shoot) you do guard duty?Originally posted by deathbait:If you recall, her son offered to pay for her.
If pride is the point here, any old fashioned chinese would tell you it is better to be in debt to your son than to outsiders.
Yes, NS is full of examples of this kind of behavior. Report sick before guard duty comes to mind. -
It seems you do not wish to admit tat the mistake was madeOriginally posted by deathbait:lol oh please
paying by interest free installment is a big difference from paying in lump sum.
You just try getting an interest free installment on anything...there's a reason why it's not often offered.
Just because her opponent was a government entity does not automatically make her right. Ditto for being old. Or for being illiterate.
The rules for playing in the society is simple. You follow the rules and pay your dues. Rules are only effective when everyone follows them. Everytime someone chips off a small advantage from the system for private gain like in your grandmother's case, the system fails a little more. Worse still, everytime someone gains, someone else loses.
And what happens when the old rules no longer prevent petty theft from the system? More rules are needed. It is no coincidence that Singapore has so many minor laws to prevent seemingly useless things. Singaporeans are UGLY. We are. No amount of patroitism will change that fact. WE ARE UGLY.
And so, yes I look down with disdain at people like your grandmother who goes out of her way to gain that small bit of advantage from the system. Or the driver who thinks it's harmless to run a red light just because there is no traffic in the middle of the night.
It's these little things that contribute to the society you ppl seem to dislike so much. To the governance that seems to rule with an iron fist. I'm sorry to burst your bubble all. But the government is usually trying to save us from ourselves.
Ask yourself if you don't steal from the commons every single day. Running red lights. Jaywalking. Littering. The list goes on.
being thick skin would backfire