Chee SJ not wrong in asking ex-PM GCT "Where is our monies?
-
There have been a number of issues that citizens are not happy about. However where is Chee Soon Juan ? Does he only need to protest when foreign journalists are in town ? Or is he busy counting the money he collected after the Burmese saga ?
-
What do u mean "no sign yet" ?Originally posted by robertteh:No sign yet of any bogey foreign power trying to use our opposition politicians to play as 5th column to subjugate our sovereignty. One would have thought that with the talents that they claim to possess our government should have discovered any such fifth columnists by now with evidence or our army and intelligence would have got hold of full evidence of such secret agents.
Let they do their jobs professionally.
As people, we have a duty to speak up as one to scrutinise any government who tries to abuse power and govern with hypocrisy and doing what it likes to serve its own interest.
There were signs. Thats why he's not trusted, not entertained and not tolerated by the PAP.
U consider using foreign funding to organise local political activities to be a transparent, aboveboard and democratic activity?
As much as I am not blind to the weaknesses and heavy handedness of this government, I am also not blind to some of the questionable practices of Dr Chee Soon Juan.
U are right that as citizens, we have a duty to question the government, to better understand the situation faced by the country and to receive some fair answers.
But like you said: It is the PEOPLE's responsibility. Not just the responsibility of the "one-man-army" Chee Soon Juan.
I find it a bit unfair of u to perceive the govt to be the worst of the worst while at the same time thinking that CSJ represents patriotism, altruism and is the embodiment of a responsible political activist.
I think they're all crooks to various extents and it is the responsibility of ALL Singaporeans to check ALL such figures.
The problem is apathy, not PAP. -
I am not CSJ party member or his supporter. I am not treating him as a patriot but am trying to be fair and objective.Originally posted by CX:What do u mean "no sign yet" ?
There were signs. Thats why he's not trusted, not entertained and not tolerated by the PAP.
U consider using foreign funding to organise local political activities to be a transparent, aboveboard and democratic activity?
As much as I am not blind to the weaknesses and heavy handedness of this government, I am also not blind to some of the questionable practices of Dr Chee Soon Juan.
U are right that as citizens, we have a duty to question the government, to better understand the situation faced by the country and to receive some fair answers.
But like you said: It is the PEOPLE's responsibility. Not just the responsibility of the "one-man-army" Chee Soon Juan.
I find it a bit unfair of u to perceive the govt to be the worst of the worst while at the same time thinking that CSJ represents patriotism, altruism and is the embodiment of a responsible political activist.
I think they're all crooks to various extents and it is the responsibility of ALL Singaporeans to check ALL such figures.
The problem is apathy, not PAP.
CSJ was not really guilty of anything terrible so far. He has raised major issues with the government and in doing so he has stepped on the toes of the powerful politicians.
In asking GCT "where is our monies" for which he was heavily criticized by some weak-minded fellow citizens he was doing all citizens a big favor. Look at how bold our government has become due to its assuming absolute power today to such an extent that today citizens' monies are being thrown at all the bail-outs of foreign institutions for their own names and connections sake when back home our own fellow citizens are facing much financial problems.
If CSJ is indeed a foreign agent, we have all the police and intelligence service to pin him down with full evidence. So far there is no evidence against him but only suspicions. All these suggest that there may be a lot of propagandas being built up against him to destroy him politically.
Should our fellow citizens fail prey to such propagandas to fix the oppositions.
For all the weird actions or behavior highlighted by propagandas, he is not guilty of any serious crimes or anti-people activities. So we the people should try to be objective and fair and not believe in propaganda and start joining the bullies to bully him.
Tang Liang Hong, Francis Seow along with JBJ were targeted for the same threat or perceived political threats.
So let us see the larger picture and not fall for propagandas against any more good potential opposition leaders we may find. -
I am also not blind to some of the questionable practices of Dr Chee Soon Juan.
Like what? -
Like taking money from foreign sources to plan political activities in SG.Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:Like what?
We could, in all fairness, say that such "donations" are innocent aid offered by foreign NGOs to aid the cause of spreading democracy in asia.
However, if that was the case, then the amount should be declared and it would be nice and aboveboard. BUT Dr Chee chose to ignore the law.
That raises the question in my mind: why hide if there is nothing to hide?
He is guilty of a similar lack of transparency in his modus operandi.
Now, another point: What's his income now? We know that Chiam See Tong and Low Thia Kiang are businessmen. They also draw an MP salary. Nobody can accuse them of taking money that is inappropriate here.
But Dr Chee? He can't very well eat air now can he? -
With due respect and no reference to the topic, there is also no sign of many things said by forumers that have happened but became internet urban legends.Originally posted by robertteh:No sign yet of any bogey foreign power trying to use our opposition politicians to play as 5th column to subjugate our sovereignty. One would have thought that with the talents that they claim to possess our government should have discovered any such fifth columnists by now with evidence or our army and intelligence would have got hold of full evidence of such secret agents.
Let they do their jobs professionally.
As people, we have a duty to speak up as one to scrutinise any government who tries to abuse power and govern with hypocrisy and doing what it likes to serve its own interest.
One such is CPF money. My parents, parents-in-law and relatives within 5-years range in age and withdrew their CPF monies without a cent missing. However, the "empty coffers" theory is a favourite jibe, if you'd recall. Some even asked that opposition MPs to take it up.
It is fine to ask for more transparency but when it is reflected in the Budget and you counter that it is not there, it is a different matter.
There are a lot of urban legends against not only the PAP government, but opposition parties - yes, even SDP too. It could be because there are people who wish to affirm the entity they support or disdain.
Regards -
I think Dr Chee did right too. No sane righteous man could say what he did was wrong.
Unfortunately, the 'media' helped to distort the message Dr Chee was trying to put across to the nation. Yeah, I could still remember the many men in white standing forth to condemn him for his 'bad manners'. You know, I really worry for a nation whose citizenry could have such misplaced priorities... Did they seriously think 'good manners' was more important than all the money in our Reserves?
I notice there are some members posting to this thread saying they agree with us in general, but feel that Dr Chee's method of questioning was wrong or whatever...
I find that most suspicious. If you are drawing attention to how 'rude' Dr Chee was when he questioned GCT about our monies, you are not acting like a normal person. Think about it. If someone owes you a huge sum of money, and your representative went after the errant debtor, the first thing on your mind shouldn't be how 'rude' your representative was to the debtor.
Unless you have a job to do, which is to detract the people from the important issues at stake.
Crew -
Melvin,Originally posted by Melvin Tan:With due respect and no reference to the topic, there is also no sign of many things said by forumers that have happened but became internet urban legends.
One such is CPF money. My parents, parents-in-law and relatives within 5-years range in age and withdrew their CPF monies without a cent missing. However, the "empty coffers" theory is a favourite jibe, if you'd recall. Some even asked that opposition MPs to take it up.
It is fine to ask for more transparency but when it is reflected in the Budget and you counter that it is not there, it is a different matter.
There are a lot of urban legends against not only the PAP government, but opposition parties - yes, even SDP too. It could be because there are people who wish to affirm the entity they support or disdain.
Regards
I can say your mild assignation of other causes to be looked at may precisely be due to years of indoctrination by government propaganda against credible oppositions by its controlled media which employed top government people to its editorial board and political writers to do such indoctrination.
The constant propaganda being churned out against Dr. Chee could be the result of deliberate discrediting of opposition e.g. playing up on the rudeness of Dr. Chee and his likely financing by some foreign powers is totally out of proportion to the real issue Dr. Chee was fighting for i.e. need for accountability and transparency in the way monies in our citizens' reserves are being lightly used to serve ruling government's own political objectives and agendas.
If our citizens do not have this ability to see through such media propaganda sad to say there will be no change and we will continue to have a government which will continue to behave arrogantly spewing propagandas against potential good leaders. -
It is indeed fortunate for that generation - which your parents, parents-in-law and relatives belong to - to be able to pick-up their CPF.Originally posted by Melvin Tan:With due respect and no reference to the topic, there is also no sign of many things said by forumers that have happened but became internet urban legends.
One such is CPF money. My parents, parents-in-law and relatives within 5-years range in age and withdrew their CPF monies without a cent missing. However, the "empty coffers" theory is a favourite jibe, if you'd recall. Some even asked that opposition MPs to take it up.
It is fine to ask for more transparency but when it is reflected in the Budget and you counter that it is not there, it is a different matter.
There are a lot of urban legends against not only the PAP government, but opposition parties - yes, even SDP too. It could be because there are people who wish to affirm the entity they support or disdain.
Regards
Apply the following not unrealistic sum on to an Excel spread sheet, and you figure if there is any cause for this Government to continuously tinker with the CPF withdrawal rules that will arbitrarily prevent Singaporeans from taking out the full sum of their CPF Savings for various reasons:
Monthly CPF Contribution : $200
x 12 months per year
x 25 years of working life
x Working Population of 1,000,000
Keeping the matter simple, the above total has not included the compounded annual interest.
Tell us if there is enough in the Singapore Reserves for the government to pay for this hypothetical small workforce of 1,000,000 Singaporeans saving for a period of 25 years - based on what we can only assume the Reserves can be.
Is there any reason for this government to ''frantically'' make the available money grow - by ''investing'' in properties, real estates, banks, big and small 'profitable' commercial enterprises across the globe ? -
I applaud your argument ....60 billion ...Originally posted by Atobe:It is indeed fortunate for that generation - which your parents, parents-in-law and relatives belong to - to be able to pick-up their CPF.
Apply the following not unrealistic sum on to an Excel spread sheet, and you figure if there is any cause for this Government to continuously tinker with the CPF withdrawal rules that will arbitrarily prevent Singaporeans from taking out the full sum of their CPF Savings for various reasons:
Monthly CPF Contribution : $200
x 12 months per year
x 25 years of working life
x Working Population of 1,000,000
Keeping the matter simple, the above total has not included the compounded annual interest.
Tell us if there is enough in the Singapore Reserves for the government to pay for this hypothetical small workforce of 1,000,000 Singaporeans saving for a period of 25 years - based on what we can only assume the Reserves can be.
Is there any reason for this government to ''frantically'' make the available money grow - by ''investing'' in properties, real estates, banks, big and small 'profitable' commercial enterprises across the globe ?
But then again i'm sure alot of SG out there are buying 99 year leases that expend their lifetime of CPF
so the govt is getting some $ back.
Meh the govt is doing their best Mr Atobe, land is limited and we have China & India to compete with, their labour costs are lower than us and we have alot of catching up to do if we are to match them in labour costs ..... and on top of everything most of us that are staying in HDB are renting stuff, don't own nthing..... our cars 10 years *poof*, HDB 99 years *poof*.
Singapore good hor? Vote PAP ..... i help you vote too
-
CSJ certainly was not wrong to question our ex-PM where our money had gone to. But it was the manner in which CSJ had done so which landed him in trouble with the law (defamation).
Had CSJ arranged a formal and proper forum to challenge our ex-PM and yet still get into trouble, I would have supported TS and his hero, CSJ..... But was this done? No.
TS damn bloody bo liao leh!
Time and again, he simply refuses to understand this and continues to insist that CSJ was penalised fot being rude la, uncouth la, blah blah.......
Well, I guess TS is exercising his freedom to continue making himself look stoo-pid. So cheers!
-
Your view is CSJ was rude and because he was rude no matter how right he was on the issue of use of people's monies to rescue foreign sovereign like Suharto, you are prepared to condemn him.Originally posted by :CSJ certainly was not wrong to question our ex-PM where our money had gone to. But it was the manner in which CSJ had done so which landed him in trouble with the law (defamation).
Had CSJ arranged a formal and proper forum to challenge our ex-PM and yet still get into trouble, I would have supported TS and his hero, CSJ..... But was this done? No.
TS damn bloody bo liao leh!
Time and again, he simply refuses to understand this and continues to insist that CSJ was penalised fot being rude la, uncouth la, blah blah.......
Well, I guess TS is exercising his freedom to continue making himself look stoo-pid. So cheers!
Now is that the conduct of a rationale and objective citizen. Or will you not be encouraging the government to get bold and start taking more of citizens' monies and spend them for their own pride and other purposes. -
I agree with you 100% plus guaranteeOriginally posted by :CSJ certainly was not wrong to question our ex-PM where our money had gone to. But it was the manner in which CSJ had done so which landed him in trouble with the law (defamation).
But one has to wonder why this dumb dumb CSJ are doing these stuff.
Its so apparent to our forumners he is dumb in doing so ..... lets give CSJ a chance to defend himself....
I found this on another thread..... and im going to quote FEER's interview with him.
http://www.feer.com/articles1/2006/0607/free/p024.html
Want to know more? Click and go read ..... Anyways Im voting for your PAP so don't flame me.... see if i care anymore
Mr. Chee is not terribly concerned about election results.
It would be foolish, he suggests, for an opposition party in Singapore to pin its hopes on gaining one, or perhaps two, seats in parliament. He is aiming for a much bigger goal: bringing down the city-stateÂ’s one-party system of government. His weapon is a campaign of civil disobedience against laws designed to curtail democratic freedoms.
“You don’t vote out a dictatorship,” he says. “And basically that’s what Singapore is, albeit a very sophisticated one. It’s not possible for us to effect change just through the ballot box. They’ve got control of everything else around us.” Instead what’s needed is a coalition of civil society and political society coming together and demanding change—a color revolution for Singapore.
The need for transparency and accountability also means that Singapore will have to change. That is the source of Mr. Chee’s optimism in the face of all his setbacks: “I realize that Singapore is not at that level yet. But we’ve got to start somewhere. And I’m prepared to see this out, in the sense that in the next five, 10, 15 years, time is on our side. We need to continue to organize and educate and encourage. And it will come.” -
Originally posted by lionnoisy:
Selective reading?
1.Ask US citizens how come the great country so heave indebted??
It is no use u describe US govt as free democratic ...etc
The US $$ is falling like a rock for 40 Years..
Left 10% purchasing value in 55 yrs>>
Why ?u under pay US Presidents and so many officials!!
peanuts can feed monkeys only.
u need banana to feed elephants to work for u.
great sources of US info
#1 Core Problem: INCREASED GOVERNMENT-DOMINANCE OF OUR ECONOMY
...Government is not a 'free-lunch' - - citizens now work 3 times longer per year to pay all taxes, more than they pay for food, housing and clothing combined, which reduces their own freedom of choice. Government growth reduced the private sector from 7.3 times larger than the government sector when I was young to just a 1.5 ratio today, a huge drop... -
Dear Robert,Originally posted by robertteh:Melvin,
I can say your mild assignation of other causes to be looked at may precisely be due to years of indoctrination by government propaganda against credible oppositions by its controlled media which employed top government people to its editorial board and political writers to do such indoctrination.
The constant propaganda being churned out against Dr. Chee could be the result of deliberate discrediting of opposition e.g. playing up on the rudeness of Dr. Chee and his likely financing by some foreign powers is totally out of proportion to the real issue Dr. Chee was fighting for i.e. need for accountability and transparency in the way monies in our citizens' reserves are being lightly used to serve ruling government's own political objectives and agendas.
If our citizens do not have this ability to see through such media propaganda sad to say there will be no change and we will continue to have a government which will continue to behave arrogantly spewing propagandas against potential good leaders.
I believe I stated an example that derived from a real-life experience and gave nothing off on what was read in the local press.
In addition, there was nowhere that I mentioned Dr Chee and I did express that I shall not and refrained from laying judgement of anyone in public.
Finally, I have seen people who disavow the local press use it when the reports favour them.
Regards -
Thank you for that post and the efforts to put up a credible piece. I will address it later but firstly, my post was a response to Robert who did not feel that anyone could judge opposition leaders without proof.Originally posted by Atobe:It is indeed fortunate for that generation - which your parents, parents-in-law and relatives belong to - to be able to pick-up their CPF.
Apply the following not unrealistic sum on to an Excel spread sheet, and you figure if there is any cause for this Government to continuously tinker with the CPF withdrawal rules that will arbitrarily prevent Singaporeans from taking out the full sum of their CPF Savings for various reasons:
Monthly CPF Contribution : $200
x 12 months per year
x 25 years of working life
x Working Population of 1,000,000
Keeping the matter simple, the above total has not included the compounded annual interest.
Tell us if there is enough in the Singapore Reserves for the government to pay for this hypothetical small workforce of 1,000,000 Singaporeans saving for a period of 25 years - based on what we can only assume the Reserves can be.
Is there any reason for this government to ''frantically'' make the available money grow - by ''investing'' in properties, real estates, banks, big and small 'profitable' commercial enterprises across the globe ?
While I am not with the PAP, I think to be fair, anyone can judge and express their views. Robert has also previously judged the opposition MPs for "not doing a good job" and it's his right because they are also accountable.
Your tabulation makes sense - however, I believe there is an omission, among other points. Most CPF money of Singaporeans have gone to their flats and they will not be getting their full sum back, or rather, got in back in what they are living in presently.
Herein lies another problem - 200 x 12 x 25 = $60,000. A flat costs at least $200,000.
Saying that, I do very much agree that transparency is utmost. I wish to see a CPF breakdown of the number of Singaporeans with how many % of their CPF monies tied in flats, % of the population drawing out their CPF for each year in the next 10 years and how much they will get.
Regards -
Originally posted by Melvin Tan:Your tabulation makes sense - however, I believe there is an omission, among other points. Most CPF money of Singaporeans have gone to their flats and they will not be getting their full sum back, or rather, got in back in what they are living in presently.
Herein lies another problem - 200 x 12 x 25 = $60,000. A flat costs at least $200,000.
An awesome idea I must say .... we pay all our CPF towards the 99 year lease...... so in effect we are paying rent to the governmentOriginally posted by Genie99But then again i'm sure alot of SG out there are buying 99 year leases that expend their lifetime of CPF so the govt is getting some $ back.
What does it add up to again ..... 60 billion?
Whats your take on this Melvin?
*and i'm not flaming nor saying yer with/against the idea.... just your pt of view
[/b] -
Originally posted by genie99:
You don't earn money from paying rent for a roof over your head.
An awesome idea I must say .... we pay all our CPF towards the 99 year lease...... so in effect we are paying rent to the government
What does it add up to again ..... 60 billion?
Whats your take on this Melvin?
*and i'm not flaming nor saying yer with/against the idea.... just your pt of view
[/b] -
Originally posted by genie99:
In a large way, I agree with you.
An awesome idea I must say .... we pay all our CPF towards the 99 year lease...... so in effect we are paying rent to the government
What does it add up to again ..... 60 billion?
Whats your take on this Melvin?
*and i'm not flaming nor saying yer with/against the idea.... just your pt of view
[/b]
Regards -
I would really like the Government to clarify the amount of all the monies put to secret projects and security information network.Originally posted by phil30k:Thank you for allowing me to clarify.
I'm not excusing or giving the Government a reason, I don't know if there is one.
I'm not an economist or polictician but I'll share what little I know. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
At lower levels, you invest in blue chip.
At higher levels you have diversified portfolios.
At domestic levels you build subsidized housing, build transport systems and finance or grant loans to the building of infrastructures.
At foreign levels you may invest in neighbors so they develop faster and become allies. You can prop up neighbouring economies. You can loan them money.
Some of these transactions are easily quantified. Some of these returns cannot be quantified easily (as with HDB where government can set prices effectively changing the value of existing stock). Some may have intangible benefits. Some of these transactions may be kept secret for security reasons.
I hope the Government can find some way of satisfactorily reassuring citizens that the reserves have been put to good use. -
While I don't favour the present treatment of opposition members because PAP calls it "expectation" and I think the expectation is a largely-tilted one, I would argue against being good for becoming a target of lawsuits and weaker ones being allowed to exist.
People who put forth this stand have apparently forgotten Ho Juan Thai, Seow Khee Leng and the late Harbans Singh.
One might remember Harbans Singh. And could anyone tell me if he was a "threat".
If one can't remember Ho Juan Thai or Seow Khee Leng, then it proves my point.
Regards -
I would say at this point of our evolution as a little red dot, we should ask ourselves this question: Having come so far after 40 plus years of top-down autocracy, tight-fisted control of personal and political freedoms for the sake of nation building, are we on the right track.Originally posted by Melvin Tan:Dear Robert,
I believe I stated an example that derived from a real-life experience and gave nothing off on what was read in the local press.
In addition, there was nowhere that I mentioned Dr Chee and I did express that I shall not and refrained from laying judgement of anyone in public.
Finally, I have seen people who disavow the local press use it when the reports favour them.
Regards
Will it serve us well to continue to slam Jeyaratnam for his fiery spirits or CSJ for his political antics, or for non-stop taxing and profiteering against the citizens even as government is making lots of profits by the HDB like selling the latest public housing at $700,000.00 for a 5-room flat etc.
Will the government please tell us when are our building of such huge profits and surpluses going to benefit us the ordinary citizens or the majority? Will the surpluses eventually go to benefit the durais or their connections, the elites or the rich in a grand hallucination of some sorts?
If the answer is doubtful full of hypocrisy and denials of responsibility as we are still seeing then I would rather we call it bluff and stop all the false pretences and start to change for a more proactive pro-people, pro-competition and pro-growth system based on recognition of roles of citizens with better utilisation of all the human and other resources that we all have. -
Precious said:
"CSJ certainly was not wrong to question our ex-PM where our money had gone to. But it was the manner in which CSJ had done so which landed him in trouble with the law (defamation).
Had CSJ arranged a formal and proper forum to challenge our ex-PM and yet still get into trouble, I would have supported TS and his hero, CSJ..... But was this done? No"
Well, Precious, what you said doesn't make sense.
You said he was not wrong to question our ex-PM about the money, but you took issue with the way he asked those questions. Like I said earlier, you are not behaving like a normal person. To use another example to further drive in my point, this would be like when you get robbed, and the police officer chased after and shouted at the thief to stop. Would you berate the police officer for 'shouting at the thief'? Or even suggest a more 'PR' way to handle the situation?
No one I know would react like that. Unless they have an agenda, which is to detract the people from the real issues at stake.
Arrange a formal and proper forum? LOL
That's a good one. Yeah, like the then Prime Minister would go to such a forum to be questioned! Do you want me to list the number of 'no shows' performed by the PAP?
For example, when the Australian SBS station released the story about Singapore's links to the Burmese drug lords, the Singapore government was invited to refute those allegations. They turned down the invitation.
Is the Singapore Courts formal enough? Well, I refer to the defamation suits that went on between Chee Soon Juan and the Lees. I think Mr Lee Junior said he was willing to be cross-examined, but did we see anything like that? Did the Lees submit themselves to cross-examination? NO!
Look. The reason why they do not want an outspoken person like Chee Soon Juan in Parliament was because they (the PAP) do not like to be 'cross-examined' in public. You think Mr Goh would go to any such forums organised by Chee Soon Juan?
Crew -
The PAP regime, despite their hegemonic status, is very insecure about their rule.
They don't like people to criticise them or ask questions.
They like to feed people propaganda and keep the population at a low level of political knowledge and awareness.
This is quite pathetic in my view. -
Random musing.....
When government lose money, they are losing taxpayers money. When they earn money, they are profiteering at the citizens expense. Sometimes its just difficult to satisfy everybody.