Concerning Emigration
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I've been reading several posts about how "bad" Singapore is and many would opt for emigration if they have a chance to.
Personally, I think the policies (political, economic or social) in Singapore do not have that many "push" factors in them. There are pros and cons everywhere. If we are optimistic, the GST in Singapore is comparatively low and so is the income tax. We have decent medical benefits and basic necessities available at reasonable cost. By reasonable, I mean that 90% of the population can afford transport, medical, food and housing.
If you think that the same goes to the citizens of the other developed countries, I'll say it isn't completely true. For instance, most citizens in Europe actually do not own their own homes unless they have inheritance from their parents or enough savings for it. What many average Europeans do is that they pay rental for their houses/apartments, and if they do not get enough inheritance or save enough to buy their own property, they actually have to pay rental all their lives. I mean...can you imagine still having to pay 400 - 800 Euro rent per month at the age of 75? The government does not "help" the citizens to plan in life.
Now even if an average working household in Europe is far-sighted enough to invest in their own homes at a young age, the state's employment (in)stability is also a factor that may discourage them from taking the risk. When you lose your job and aren't able to pay back your bank loan, your bank will automatically sell your house for you at a highly devalued price. The difference will be added to your debts.
Of course there are many negative aspects in Singapore. Although medical is affordable, I still prefer a national health insurance scheme where it forces citizens to pay for their health insurance on a monthly basis. So when they meet an accident or fall seriously ill, they get the necessary medical treatment almost for free. In that way, they needn't worry about their finances when they fall ill. I mean, sickness is something everyone will choose NOT to have, regardless of the cost. So I think every sick patient's medical cost should be subsidized through a health insurance scheme. To avoid misuse of the scheme, some European countries make the citizens bear an extremely small part of the cost whenever they seek medical help. Rationally, people would choose not to pay for completely unnecessary reason
Although basic necessities are within reach to the majority of Singapore citizens, luxuries are many times harder to achieve in Singapore than in the western countries. I'm not even talking about luxuries like houses and automobiles here. The price-for-quality ridge (gradient) for many products in Singapore is extremely steep. You may find really cheap products in Singapore but to buy a product that is of a decent quality (and style), you pay a lot more in Singapore than you would have to pay in Europe or in the States. And due to our relatively lower pay and lower exchange rates, we have a very much lower purchasing power as compared to the other developed countries. Besides, International companies (I'm not even talking about designer brands) price their products pretty evenly worldwide. To put it simply, if a zara trench costs 120Euro in Europe (other than Spain heh), it'll most probably cost 240SGD in Singapore. However, while an engineer earns 4500SGD in Singapore, he'll most probably be earning 4500Euro in Europe. (The exchange rate is about 1Euro to 2.1SGD). Get what I mean? =/
Now, I feel that there are stronger push factors in Singapore aren't really the social, economic or political reasons. I find it justified when individuals emigrate to join their family overseas, for their career, or simply for a change in lifestyle.
Some married abroad or have families abroad. Some careers don't have a market in Singapore, or are simply just not encouraged here. And some people may also find the lifestyle in Singapore unsuitable for them. They also might not be able to excel in a typical Singaporean workplace/university but they are able to do much better when working with people of a different mentality and mindset or studying in a different environment.
Basically, migration is about what you want in life, and which country can provide the most suitable environment for you. -
Dear Birkin,
(sorry if this is disjointed, I didn't edit it)
I thought your post was very intelligent and asked the right questions. I'd like to add my point of view to this thread.
I agree that there are many "push factors" that contribute to emigration.
Once we've listed them, the next question would be their effect. Then how much of this can be managed and in what ways. Then we ask how much of this can or should be managed by the Government.
This is where we come to the crux of the matter.
People view relationships in many ways, as form of contracts or guided by morality or mandated by human nature, mandated by God etc. These views are fundamentally different however in Singapore we find one mindset dominates.
That is a person who volunteerily gives up his rights and freedoms to another does so in exchage for certain things, be it a standard of living etc. And that imposes a responsibility on the other party to fulfil this and a right for the person to demand these.
I find a lot of debate revolves on what we can realistically expect the Government to be responsible for in exchange for those rights and freedoms we have given up and whether these responsibilities have been fulfilled and how this social contract should be managed. -
This is by far, the most detailed summary about emigration. For those who think life will always be better or easier in developed countries like japan, europe or usa, think again. Eventually is what u want in life that determine whether u really need to relocate, cos when u r eventually there u might not even like it.
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You know something, one will never know whether he likes it over there better or here. The only way to know is to try it out over there as permanent resident and decide for themselves. My friend who did a pharmaceutical degree in Australia, worked there for a 3 years and decided to call Australia home. She met her husband (Malaysian) there.Originally posted by SpeedStar:This is by far, the most detailed summary about emigration. For those who think life will always be better or easier in developed countries like japan, europe or usa, think again. Eventually is what u want in life that determine whether u really need to relocate, cos when u r eventually there u might not even like it.
You will never know if something is suitable for you unless you try for yourself. Ignore what others tell you about how bad it is there and try it for yourself, only you can judge for yourself. -
You have considered the issue of high tax rate without considering the issue of higher pay for those countries. It's like comparing a country with high tax rates with Singaporean pay, which is an error. Western countries who have similar GDP per capita as Singapore, their wages for their workers are 3 to 5 times (in their own local currency) that of Singapore.Originally posted by Birkin_H:I've been reading several posts about how "bad" Singapore is and many would opt for emigration if they have a chance to.
Personally, I think the policies (political, economic or social) in Singapore do not have that many "push" factors in them. There are pros and cons everywhere. If we are optimistic, the GST in Singapore is comparatively low and so is the income tax. We have decent medical benefits and basic necessities available at reasonable cost. By reasonable, I mean that 90% of the population can afford transport, medical, food and housing.
If you think that the same goes to the citizens of the other developed countries, I'll say it isn't completely true. For instance, most citizens in Europe actually do not own their own homes unless they have inheritance from their parents or enough savings for it. What many average Europeans do is that they pay rental for their houses/apartments, and if they do not get enough inheritance or save enough to buy their own property, they actually have to pay rental all their lives. I mean...can you imagine still having to pay 400 - 800 Euro rent per month at the age of 75? The government does not "help" the citizens to plan in life.
Now even if an average working household in Europe is far-sighted enough to invest in their own homes at a young age, the state's employment (in)stability is also a factor that may discourage them from taking the risk. When you lose your job and aren't able to pay back your bank loan, your bank will automatically sell your house for you at a highly devalued price. The difference will be added to your debts.
Of course there are many negative aspects in Singapore. Although medical is affordable, I still prefer a national health insurance scheme where it forces citizens to pay for their health insurance on a monthly basis. So when they meet an accident or fall seriously ill, they get the necessary medical treatment almost for free. In that way, they needn't worry about their finances when they fall ill. I mean, sickness is something everyone will choose NOT to have, regardless of the cost. So I think every sick patient's medical cost should be subsidized through a health insurance scheme. To avoid misuse of the scheme, some European countries make the citizens bear an extremely small part of the cost whenever they seek medical help. Rationally, people would choose not to pay for completely unnecessary reason
Although basic necessities are within reach to the majority of Singapore citizens, luxuries are many times harder to achieve in Singapore than in the western countries. I'm not even talking about luxuries like houses and automobiles here. The price-for-quality ridge (gradient) for many products in Singapore is extremely steep. You may find really cheap products in Singapore but to buy a product that is of a decent quality (and style), you pay a lot more in Singapore than you would have to pay in Europe or in the States. And due to our relatively lower pay and lower exchange rates, we have a very much lower purchasing power as compared to the other developed countries. Besides, International companies (I'm not even talking about designer brands) price their products pretty evenly worldwide. To put it simply, if a zara trench costs 120Euro in Europe (other than Spain heh), it'll most probably cost 240SGD in Singapore. However, while an engineer earns 4500SGD in Singapore, he'll most probably be earning 4500Euro in Europe. (The exchange rate is about 1Euro to 2.1SGD). Get what I mean? =/
Now, I feel that there are stronger push factors in Singapore aren't really the social, economic or political reasons. I find it justified when individuals emigrate to join their family overseas, for their career, or simply for a change in lifestyle.
Some married abroad or have families abroad. Some careers don't have a market in Singapore, or are simply just not encouraged here. And some people may also find the lifestyle in Singapore unsuitable for them. They also might not be able to excel in a typical Singaporean workplace/university but they are able to do much better when working with people of a different mentality and mindset or studying in a different environment.
Basically, migration is about what you want in life, and which country can provide the most suitable environment for you.
If a worker here gets SGD 943, a worker in a comparative country (say Finland) would get EUR 1,700 (SGD 3,570 @ EUR 1 = SGD 2.10).
Singapore:
44 hour work week @ 8.8 hours a day, say minimum wage of $5.00 (Macdonald's staff get less than that).
188.57 hours X SGD 5.00 X 12 months= SGD 11,316
After tax income (no income taxes) = SGD 943
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New Zealand:
Same 44 hour week @ 8.8 hours a day, minimum wage for cafe workers is NZD 14.42.
188.57 hours X NZD 14.42 X 12 months = NZD 32,628
If the NZD 2,719 converted to SGD 2,963 (NZD 1 = SGD 1.09)
Tax rate = 19.5%
After tax income = NZD 26,265
http://www.emigratenz.org/Work.html
http://www.ird.govt.nz/how-to/taxrates-codes/itaxsalaryandwage-incometaxrates.html
Higher taxes does not necessarily mean disadvantages, because New Zealand has a higher salary base for it's citizens. Especially when they have better social service programs compared to here. -
Yap, I agree with u on thisOriginally posted by maurizio13:You know something, one will never know whether he likes it over there better or here. The only way to know is to try it out over there as permanent resident and decide for themselves. My friend who did a pharmaceutical degree in Australia, worked there for a 3 years and decided to call Australia home. She met her husband (Malaysian) there.
You will never know if something is suitable for you unless you try for yourself. Ignore what others tell you about how bad it is there and try it for yourself, only you can judge for yourself. -
If can adapt it's a higher quality of life for you and your family, if can't adapt the worse is come back to Singapore to compete with the foreign talents from India and China.Originally posted by SpeedStar:Yap, I agree with u on this -
They are everywhere man, not only SGOriginally posted by maurizio13:If can adapt it's a higher quality of life for you and your family, if can't adapt the worse is come back to Singapore to compete with the foreign talents from India and China. -
Maybe I should revert the same question asked of non gov supporters.Originally posted by kramnave:They are everywhere man, not only SG
I am not disputing your claim, BUT........
Do you have proof that they are EVERYWHERE?
Maybe you can show me starting with Norway, Finland, Denmark, Sweden, Ireland & Switzerland.
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I recall a year or two back, there was this report in the papers reporting that even secondary school kids had contemplated leaving the country next time when they grew up.
Now that's really sad.
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It also included those JC or poly students.Originally posted by charlize:I recall a year or two back, there was this report in the papers reporting that even secondary school kids had contemplated leaving the country next time when they grew up.
Now that's really sad. -
Never been to Scandinavia so i can't tell. Perhaps i used the wrong word. Perhaps i shouldn't use the word "Everywhere" since childish elements exists in erm everywhere. Ok, more often than not, they are where Singaporeans tend to migrate to (U.S, Britain, Australia, Canada, etc). One can call FTs here names but overseas you are a "chinese boy" or "Farking Asian" as well.Originally posted by maurizio13:Maybe I should revert the same question asked of non gov supporters.
I am not disputing your claim, BUT........
Do you have proof that they are EVERYWHERE?
Maybe you can show me starting with Norway, Finland, Denmark, Sweden, Ireland & Switzerland. -
U should also take note that the locals migratted to other countries are talent. I have a colleuge in full time NS n he got an economics degree from'Originally posted by kramnave:Never been to Scandinavia so i can't tell. Perhaps i used the wrong word. Perhaps i shouldn't use the word "Everywhere" since childish elements exists in erm everywhere. Ok, more often than not, they are where Singaporeans tend to migrate to (U.S, Britain, Australia, Canada, etc). One can call FTs here names but overseas you are a "chinese boy" or "Farking Asian" as well.
Cornell university n came back to serve NS. After his BMT, he kena marked by our superior n he applied leave n never came back. The punishment he got is he is quite outspoken considering the fact that many Sporean studied in US are quite outspoken n smarter than those who studied here. -
Strange? You were the one who used EVERYWHERE. You have to be correct with your language, else who would understand you. US, Britain, Australia and Canada is not equivalent to EVERYWHERE.Originally posted by kramnave:Never been to Scandinavia so i can't tell. Perhaps i used the wrong word. Perhaps i shouldn't use the word "Everywhere" since childish elements exists in erm everywhere. Ok, more often than not, they are where Singaporeans tend to migrate to (U.S, Britain, Australia, Canada, etc). One can call FTs here names but overseas you are a "chinese boy" or "Farking Asian" as well.
Maybe you can show us a comparison of these countries?
Population vs immigrant ratio?
What is the percentage? -
Your point being ? M13 was saying if cannot adapt overseas come back and compete with the indians and the chinese. What i'm saying is that these indians and chinese are "everywhere" or to put it better, are in the countries one might like to migrate to. Another point is, you view people with disdain for competing/"snatching jobs" and others might have the same view of you overseas. That is all to it.Originally posted by will4:U should also take note that the locals migratted to other countries are talent. I have a colleuge in full time NS n he got an economics degree from'
Cornell university n came back to serve NS. After his BMT, he kena marked by our superior n he applied leave n never came back. The punishment he got is he is quite outspoken considering the fact that many Sporean studied in US are quite outspoken n smarter than those who studied here. -
Refer what i posted to will, have no time to find such stats, if you have go find else take a holiday or stay there for a few yrs.Originally posted by maurizio13:Strange? You were the one who used EVERYWHERE. You have to be correct with your language, else who would understand you. US, Britain, Australia and Canada is not equivalent to EVERYWHERE.
Maybe you can show us a comparison of these countries?
Population vs immigrant ratio?
What is the percentage? -
The thing is, there is not as many PRC & Indians there as compared to here. There is a difference between competing with 10 PRCs and 1,000 PRCs.Originally posted by kramnave:Your point being ? M13 was saying if cannot adapt overseas come back and compete with the indians and the chinese. What i'm saying is that these indians and chinese are "everywhere" or to put it better, are in the countries one might like to migrate to. Another point is, you view people with disdain for competing/"snatching jobs" and others might have the same view of you overseas. That is all to it.
I can't deny that there will be discrimination when we take away another country citizen's job. But a small minority immigrant population would not cause as much displeasure amongst the population as compared to 50% immigrant population. It should be fun when our population reaches 6 million, it's when immigrants + non local born citizens and local born citizens balance out, given our citizens now stand at around 3 million.
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i have crossed that stage so it is no point for me to talk about it. what i need to focus on now is to build up my work here in australia.
just yesterday i met up with another sg friend in the shopping centre, together with him are his sisters, of 1 has settled here for the past 12 years and another 3 that are making plans to move to australia.
the local banking lady ask us why there is a sudden surge in singaporeans migrating to australia, which in 10 years ago, is virtually unheard of. Singaporeans are leaving in droves but the media and govt chose to be quiet about it. i guess we are all exploitable and expendable.
good luck to you all staying back in sg. -
fishbuff, what do you like about Australia that Singapore does not have?
What attracted you to Australia and when did you get disillusioned about Singapore? -
I would suspect they have a lot of PRCs, Chinese etc and a whole group of other asians (Japanese, Koreans, Malaysians, Vietnamese, Pakistanis, hispanics etc). No specific racial targeting but Asians in general. Anyway, i was passing Geylang the other day and we really have a lot of FTs.....FLs actually...Originally posted by maurizio13:The thing is, there is not as many PRC & Indians there as compared to here. There is a difference between competing with 10 PRCs and 1,000 PRCs.
I can't deny that there will be discrimination when we take away another country citizen's job. But if the job competition is only with a small segment of new immigrants with diverse origins, there won't be much racial targetting. But let's face it, when our population reaches 6 million from it's current -
u have to come here to experience it.Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:fishbuff, what do you like about Australia that Singapore does not have?
What attracted you to Australia and when did you get disillusioned about Singapore?
but personally, it is the push factor that compel me to move on. be it canada, australia, uk or us. bascially,
- i was poor, young and adult
- not smart
- ass luck in employment
- ass luck in getting tertiary education
- pass over for jobs in banks by indian FT interviewers.
- forced army conscription and reservist.
- forced organ donation
- craps from the mainstream media
- craps from the PAP telling how pathetic and lousy sporeans are. (testtube washer, remember?)
- ageism. never seen a 40+ years old engineer
- IT profession. totally gone case in SG.
- son is under immense stress in SG schools.
- always have issue with obedience to PAP.
- cant see a future when i hit 40-50 in my career.
- saw my friends in their 50s relinquishing to their fate as if they live from day to day.
- cant stay put.
- farking stressed out....
Chinese saying; "building of other's prosperity on top of my misery". im making sure that PAP and FTs will get no such benefits from me.. -
This farking asian is doing well overseas. If people cannot handle abit of namecalling overseas from the low class trash bins there , they should run back home to mommy. Really.Originally posted by kramnave:Never been to Scandinavia so i can't tell. Perhaps i used the wrong word. Perhaps i shouldn't use the word "Everywhere" since childish elements exists in erm everywhere. Ok, more often than not, they are where Singaporeans tend to migrate to (U.S, Britain, Australia, Canada, etc). One can call FTs here names but overseas you are a "chinese boy" or "Farking Asian" as well.
Are you going to be so worried by the few throwing racial slurs at you? Or you just ignore it and get on with your life? Small picture vs Big picture. The most important lesson I learnt is that money cures color blindness. -
Yes the mainland chinese and indians are all over the world now. So what? Protectionism for the win. If they are capable , they get permanent residency like I did and hide under the shelter of protectionism for the sake of our pay wallets. If they are dumb , they are literally asking to be exploited in a foreign country.Originally posted by kramnave:They are everywhere man, not only SG
I competed against a few indians and chinese in Australia - I have to say those are really first class to get to where they are.
The ones you have back in Singapore are the ones who cannot make it to Australia, UK, USA or Europe. They are able to come to Singapore because they undercut the locals and get experience - then jump overseas for more money.
Singapore is just at the receiving end of second-class and below type of FTs at the expense of Singaporeans. To this extent , I think that Singapore might as well get an cheaper FT to be a minister to run the country and be better off than paying millions . -
I don't disagree with you and neither am I adverse to relocating permanently to another country. I'm just trying to highlight that before we call foreigners in Singapore names or complain about them, we would do well to understand and be prepared for such reactions when we become foreigners ourselves. I believe Pauline Hanson's call for a white Australia was not motivated by race issues but primarily one of competition. People started to eat Asian food rather than fish and chips if you get what i mean.Originally posted by fymk:This farking asian is doing well overseas. If people cannot handle abit of namecalling overseas from the low class trash bins there , they should run back home to mommy. Really.
Are you going to be so worried by the few doing racial slurs at you? Or you just ignore it and get on with your life? Small picture vs Big picture. The most important lesson I learnt is that money cures color blindness.
As such, dreaming of moving abroad for a better life while calling foreigners in Singapore names just doesn't seem right to me. -
That is what i meant, I was just trying to get the point across that competition is everywhere.Originally posted by fymk:Yes the mainland chinese and indians are all over the world now. So what? Protectionism for the win. If they are capable , they get permanent residency like I did and hide under the shelter of protectionism for the sake of our pay wallets. If they are dumb , they are literally asking to be exploited in a foreign country.
I competed against a few indians and chinese - I have to say those are really first class to get to where they are.
The ones you have back in Singapore are the ones who cannot make it to Australia, UK, USA or Europe. They are able to come to Singapore because they undercut the locals and get experience - then jump overseas for more money.