Two men detained for planning acts of terror
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we do treat them quite nicely compared to the Yanks.Originally posted by Fatum:these chaps are not terrorists ... they are terrorist wannabes .....
I think they got a pretty good deal .... they'll get interrogated, they'll have preachers from MUIS etc to come in and preach to them, and after a few quiet years they'll be quietly reintegrated into society again ....
unless people think we should wait till they blows themselves up, sets a few bombs off in the MRT or go ride a donkey in afghanistan first ....
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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Internal Security Act (ISA) of Singapore confers on the government the right to arrest and detain individuals without trial in certain defined circumstances. The legislation originated in the wake of World War II, when a number of countries around the world introduced legislation that severely curtailed the rights of known or suspected communists.
The role of the Gestapo was to investigate and combat “all tendencies dangerous to the state.It had the authority to investigate treason, espionage and sabotage cases, and cases of criminal attacks on Germany.
Laws passed in 1936 effectively gave the Gestapo carte blanche to operate without judicial oversight.
I be honest with you all but i am a little in the middle, basically confusion has started to settle in. Can the ISA be similarly compared to the SS Gestapo?
And am i wrong to post this all referring Singapore's ISA in reference to Germany's SS Gestapo which was during the Nazi years. -
let's be rational about this shall we ? .... in this case we're not talking about detaining opposition figures, or even political figures .... we're talking about terrorist (wannabes) .....Originally posted by SuperPippo:From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Internal Security Act (ISA) of Singapore confers on the government the right to arrest and detain individuals without trial in certain defined circumstances. The legislation originated in the wake of World War II, when a number of countries around the world introduced legislation that severely curtailed the rights of known or suspected communists.
The role of the Gestapo was to investigate and combat “all tendencies dangerous to the state.It had the authority to investigate treason, espionage and sabotage cases, and cases of criminal attacks on Germany.
Laws passed in 1936 effectively gave the Gestapo carte blanche to operate without judicial oversight.
I be honest with you all but i am a little in the middle, basically confusion has started to settle in. Can the ISA be similarly compared to the SS Gestapo?
And am i wrong to post this all referring Singapore's ISA in reference to Germany's SS Gestapo which was during the Nazi years.
and let's examine the issues of producing the evidence in court and bring these chaps to a trial shall we ? ... firstly, you think it's possible, or even desirable for say, our intelligence agencies to come forward and present evidence in a court of law .... like how " our informer penetrated the network and gathered these info ..... ? " .....
secondly ... what kind of strain would it put on the social fabric of our society ? ... would the malay community feel picked upon, thrust onto the spotlight again, would it deepen and reinforces prejudices and suspicions of other races, there are a lot of social ramifications to be considered too .... we are not dragging those chaps out to some prison courtyard to be shot .... they'll be, as with past detainees ... quietly rehabilitated and release back into the community .... bringing them to trial and jailing them with all the publicity of a public trial would only turn them into quasi martyrs in the eyes of some, especially foreign nutcases .... I think they got a pretty good deal for planning terrorist acts .... it's a better deal than, what, say, those racist bloggers got for what they've written, neh ? .... we'll gain nothing by bringing them to a very public trial as a society .... better to slap them on the wrist, let their religious leaders show them the errors of the ways, and maintain the harmony of our society, eh ...
of course ... some here would like to construct this, as with everything else, as a political issue, rather than a national security issue ..... -
the two guy Muslim right??
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i cnat click on the link.. aniway.. how did they get caught ? wan 2 learn from their mistakes
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Oh my Fatum,
The end justifies the means?
What a slippery road you tread. -
call me jaded perhaps ... but I've long since realized that blind idealism without reason and realism is pure foolishness ....Originally posted by phil30k:Oh my Fatum,
The end justifies the means?
What a slippery road you tread. -
Dear Fatum,Originally posted by Fatum:call me jaded perhaps ... but I've long since realized that blind idealism without reason and realism is pure foolishness ....
I think realism is the opposite of idealism. So you can't really have both at the same time.
"You got to have a dream. If you don't have a dream, how are you gonna make your dreams come true?" -
are ideals a means to an end for you, or an end in itself .... it is but a means to an end to me ... which is the good, prosperity and peace of Singapore ... many people tend to forget that this is the highest, if not the only ideal, no ? .... so what is blind idealism without a sense of the final purpose ? ....Originally posted by phil30k:Dear Fatum,
I think realism is the opposite of idealism. So you can't really have both at the same time.
"You got to have a dream. If you don't have a dream, how are you gonna make your dreams come true?"
I find it really funny to see a gestapo comparison here .... but like I said ... many in this forum tend to construct everything as a political issue here .... even in this straightforward national security one .... -
An ideal can be what you picture as a perfect state. You can have an ideal but without ambition or passion, you won't work towards it.Originally posted by Fatum:are ideals a means to an end for you, or an end in itself .... it is but a means to an end to me ... which is the good, prosperity and peace of Singapore ... many people tend to forget that this is the highest, if not the only ideal, no ? .... so what is blind idealism without a sense of the final purpose ? ....
I find it really funny to see a gestapo comparison here .... but like I said ... many in this forum tend to construct everything as a political issue here .... even in this straightforward national security one ....
"good" is ambiguous.
"prosperity" still raises the question of how the wealth is shared.
"peace" may be purchased with fear.
The mention of gestapo is to show an example of how the process may be abused. -
don't worry it's the religion of peace...no sweat
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I don't quite understand where you stand, or what you're trying to say .... is this but an open ended philosophical discussion ? ....Originally posted by phil30k:An ideal can be what you picture as a perfect state. You can have an ideal but without ambition or passion, you won't work towards it.
"good" is ambiguous.
"prosperity" still raises the question of how the wealth is shared.
"peace" may be purchased with fear.
The mention of gestapo is to show an example of how the process may be abused.
of course, any process can be abused ... including, as I pointed out, the whole trial, conviction and jail thingy ...
so where exactly you're leading to ? .... perhaps you can point out why my considerations about the society and inter-racial pressures in this case is invalid or something ? .... -
I suppose it is open ended. I haven't decided myself what my ideals are so I have no views to impose on you in this respect.Originally posted by Fatum:I don't quite understand where you stand, or what you're trying to say .... is this but an open ended philosophical discussion ? ....
of course, any process can be abused ... including, as I pointed out, the whole trial, conviction and jail thingy ...
so where exactly you're leading to ? .... perhaps you can point out why my considerations about the society and inter-racial pressures in this case is invalid or something ? ....
I'm not saying your views are invalid either. Just that I don't think ISA is the ideal answer. At best it's a temporary measure and enshrining it in law lends it to abuse.
I'd prefer if the community was wise enough to deal with it without government involvement. Sometimes I wonder if our values may be part of the problem.
People and not just Singaporeans, seem to connect status with material possessions, success with how much money you make and happiness with consumerism. -
I'm sorry if I came across as a bit combative .... yes, the ISA is not ideal either .... but in this case, I'm darn glad we have the ISA so we can deal with situations like this in a lot more sensitive manner, instead of the harmful publicity of a trial ....Originally posted by phil30k:I suppose it is open ended. I haven't decided myself what my ideals are so I have no views to impose on you in this respect.
I'm not saying your views are invalid either. Just that I don't think ISA is the ideal answer. At best it's a temporary measure and enshrining it in law lends it to abuse.
I'd prefer if the community was wise enough to deal with it without government involvement. Sometimes I wonder if our values may be part of the problem.
People and not just Singaporeans, seem to connect status with material possessions, success with how much money you make and happiness with consumerism.
unfortunately, if our society as a whole is wise enough, such things wouldn't have happened in the first place .... this is the reality we have to face up to ... and guard against .... the ISA is not perfect, and yes, it is certainly prone to abuse, as we have more often seen across the causeway .... but under the circumstances, what alternatives do we really have ? ...
in anycase ... I don't want to talk further about this here in this thread ... this thread is acquiring a decidedly religious flavour, which is why I'm glad this is handled through the ISA in the first place ... imagine if this goes to a public trial ! ....
I'm out of here ... -
I am not religious. Agnostic but not religious.
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From Counterterrorism Blog..
Arrests and Releases in Singapore: Two Trends Worth Noting
By Zachary Abuza
Today the Singapore Government made two announcements regarding terrorism in the Southeast Asian economic hub.
The first is that three more individuals, described as “home grown” militants, were taken into custody in December 2007 under the Internal Security Act, which allows detention without trial. Two, Muhammad Zamri Abdullah and Maksham Mohd Shah, both 26, were placed under Orders of Deternion, while a third, Mohammad Taufik bin Andjah Asmara, whom authorities described as knowledgeable about the plot but less involved was placed under Restrictive Orders that limit his movement. Zamri and Maksham were described as “self-radicalised through radical propaganda in publications, videos and the internet.” Zamry was committed to join "mujahidin network", “so that he could wage armed jihad overseas and die a martyr.” Maksham taught himself about IEDs and had traveled to Malaysia to procure components.
In February 2007, Singapore arrested two other “home grown” militants, Abdul Basheer and Muhamad Yassin Khan bin Muhamad Yunos. The government gave no indication that the two groups of self-radicalized individuals had any connection. While Singaporean authorities deserve credit for dismantling JI and MILF-connected cells since December 2001, they are clearly alarmed by the fact that the number of home grown militant cells in Southeast Asia, inspired by Mustafa Al-Suri's doctrine of nizam la tanzim (system, not organization), is expected to grow as JI is further weakened.
But the other announcement is perhaps much more important. Five detained members of JI were released from prison, though issued with Restriction Orders that limit their movement and require continued monitoring and counseling. Five other JI and MILF members who had been placed on RO on 10 January 2004, were released without condition as they have been “co-operative in investigations and rehabilitation.”
Singapore has one of the most successful jihadist rehabilitation programs and deserves both credit and attention. Since December 2001, Singapore has detained 73 individuals for their involvement in militant activities. Of those 73, 44 (60 percent) have been freed from prison, though still under some sort of restriction and monitoring. Seven individuals have been freed unconditionally. This is an impressive rate of success especially in the case of dealing with hardline and heavily indoctrinated jihadis, and considering the security consciousness of the city state.
Since April 2003, counseling for the detainees and their families has been conducted by the Religious Rehabilitation Group, comprised of roughly 21 religious teachers who volunteer their time. In the past year the RRG has broadened its mandate to engage in a broader de-radicalization amongst Muslim youth, conducting trainings in mosques and madrasas.
http://counterterrorismblog.org/2008/01/arrests_and_releases_in_singap.php -
why are some of them being released ?Originally posted by LazerLordz:From Counterterrorism Blog..
Arrests and Releases in Singapore: Two Trends Worth Noting
By Zachary Abuza
Today the Singapore Government made two announcements regarding terrorism in the Southeast Asian economic hub.
The first is that three more individuals, described as “home grown” militants, were taken into custody in December 2007 under the Internal Security Act, which allows detention without trial. Two, Muhammad Zamri Abdullah and Maksham Mohd Shah, both 26, were placed under Orders of Deternion, while a third, Mohammad Taufik bin Andjah Asmara, whom authorities described as knowledgeable about the plot but less involved was placed under Restrictive Orders that limit his movement. Zamri and Maksham were described as “self-radicalised through radical propaganda in publications, videos and the internet.” Zamry was committed to join "mujahidin network", “so that he could wage armed jihad overseas and die a martyr.” Maksham taught himself about IEDs and had traveled to Malaysia to procure components.
In February 2007, Singapore arrested two other “home grown” militants, Abdul Basheer and Muhamad Yassin Khan bin Muhamad Yunos. The government gave no indication that the two groups of self-radicalized individuals had any connection. While Singaporean authorities deserve credit for dismantling JI and MILF-connected cells since December 2001, they are clearly alarmed by the fact that the number of home grown militant cells in Southeast Asia, inspired by Mustafa Al-Suri's doctrine of nizam la tanzim (system, not organization), is expected to grow as JI is further weakened.
But the other announcement is perhaps much more important. Five detained members of JI were released from prison, though issued with Restriction Orders that limit their movement and require continued monitoring and counseling. Five other JI and MILF members who had been placed on RO on 10 January 2004, were released without condition as they have been “co-operative in investigations and rehabilitation.”
Singapore has one of the most successful jihadist rehabilitation programs and deserves both credit and attention. Since December 2001, Singapore has detained 73 individuals for their involvement in militant activities. Of those 73, 44 (60 percent) have been freed from prison, though still under some sort of restriction and monitoring. Seven individuals have been freed unconditionally. This is an impressive rate of success especially in the case of dealing with hardline and heavily indoctrinated jihadis, and considering the security consciousness of the city state.
Since April 2003, counseling for the detainees and their families has been conducted by the Religious Rehabilitation Group, comprised of roughly 21 religious teachers who volunteer their time. In the past year the RRG has broadened its mandate to engage in a broader de-radicalization amongst Muslim youth, conducting trainings in mosques and madrasas.
http://counterterrorismblog.org/2008/01/arrests_and_releases_in_singap.php
i think they should be life sentenced ..