How can locals replace FTs? your future at stake.
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Hi,
a few decades have passed since FTs came.
why the continued reliance on so many FTs?
a few rare talents i can understand may be needed as in any where. but do we need 1 million 'FT' in a land of such highly educated people?
Why not able to be self reliant like Japan or even south korea which I am sure does not have so high percentage of reliance?
Why ? Why Why Why ?
They come, they conquered and they went out.
Some converted saying, "I took it up because I was given it".
I know a new 'zen who took up the offer and you know what, 90% of his 5 years as a 'zen is working overseas. He has his passport to thank for. And the thing to note is, he said he does not like sgp lifestyle and people. He sent his son back home as he was just reaching 18. He renounced his son PR. And he told me firmly that he will be returning to his mudderlando once he satisfied and earned enough.
Its quick and easy way to just open the gates wide wide and let anyone with some kind of skill like an engineer or programmer or factory worker come here and apply PR or work long term. But what is done after that? Is it all just about business?
I am sure running a country is more than than economics. I think the word is "nation development". Nation means the people. Of course, I would say I think they are doing just that. U no believe of the me meh?
In a world of business, its all about bottomline 1st everything else is still bottomline. Do you think running a country should be like a business? Of course I am just asking. Of course you know that I think this country is running not just like a business. Its super stedi bombibi. like this safe or not? when people do business, it does not matter if its tobacco or oily foods bad for health. Its $ and cents. that is why business people do what they do. else they would nebber survive.
what is done to replace FTs by empowering systematically locals with the same skills?
how many locals are we talking about in the tiny dot?
is that so difficurt?
of course again, i am just asking, the reality may be something else. It may be that there is something in place but somehow, the unexplanable is the heavy reliance on FT and that is growing in my personal perspective. abt 1 , 0 0 0 , 0 0 0 . 0 0 jobs require FTs. I wonder why. I wonder what has all the deans dons have to say. at this point, I like all smart people to answer me, what is the definition of Talent? is someone who attended an engineering course from some kind of school a talent? A talent to me is someone like Bill Gates, inventors, scientists, olumpic champions, international athletes, those who worked in silicon valley, those who can come up with creative ideas and solutions.
shall i suggest a solution? i doont require million dollar salary leh. just throw me peanuts and I come up solutions for you that really effective. Its only if you want to serve or you dont wanna serve. Job satisfaction is not all about salary.
My question is how long more will we have to wait before sgp becomes self reliant to the extent like Japan and South Korea ? If the reliance is there, it will always be there and can grow unless something concrete is done about it.
I recommend the people responsible being sponsored a trip to japan and learn from them. But after spending all money on them, they must deliver. Else, like an INC, must be sacked immediately without remorse.
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I wonder how many foreigners out of the 900k employed are working here as maids, butlers, security guards, road sweepers, rubbish processing and construction workers (some might be considered under PR instead of foreigners).
How many are working as waiters and waitresses and hawkers?
How many are working as nurses, air stewardess, etc?
How many are working as uni professors, language teachers?
How many have opened their own shops and businesses to sell stuffs?
How many are posted here by their company as part of their overseas stint?There are many more occupations. These are occupations of the following nature:
1) Most Singaporeans would not want to do (these are occupations which the govt shud give Sgreans priority if they want to do it)
2) Shortages of manpower
3) Shops and Businesses are fair competition
4) Foreigners may most likely be better (language teachers)
5) Company posted them here.Of course, some are forced to work in Singapore due to bonds. Do you know PRC scholars, SIA Indian scholars, etc have a 6-year bond to work in Singapore? And do you know many scholars are brought in per year? Do you know the actual reason and some of the benefits why they are brought in here, assuming you are not in the era where you have had education together with these scholars? Some of these things are known better by current students.
I agree that FTs do give stiff competition in Singapore. But are you so sure you cannot win them? Or are you so lousy that you have to complain that FTs are taking away your rice bowl?
Even if FTs are not in Singapore taking away your jobs, do you think that by working at other places, they will not be snatching away your jobs too? Companies and industries have the freedom to move or transfer operations to countries where the most talent congregate, and when these companies and industries do so, your rice bowl is still being taken away. You mentioned those who worked in Silicon Valley. If you do not support FTs at all, why even mention Silicon Valley? Silicon Valley is a place where many foreign talents congregate. So why do more and more aspire to move there? To learn from the best? Or to better able employ the expertise of the foreign talents there? Think.
The importance of FTs cannot be underestimated or undermined. Take for example, US decimated Japan quickly in the 2nd world war because of the genius of a FT. Both Japan and Germany built up their economies quickly after the 2nd world war also with the help of FTs, becoming the 2nd and 3rd largest economies respectively.
And I'm still wondering how Japan can be considered self-reliant. Obviously, the points I've pointed out in the other thread has not been read.
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Dear Reddress,
The issue is a complex one and I'm not sure if you're asking for an education, a point of view or if you're venting.
Edited: Odd, I thought I was the second poster in this thread, but eagle got inserted above me....?
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if u cant change the circumstances in SG, then just become a FT to some other countries.
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Originally posted by phil30k:
Dear Reddress,
The issue is a complex one and I'm not sure if you're asking for an education, a point of view or if you're venting.
Ain't that the truth......Out of the thousands of so called FT in S'pore, are all of them holding TOP POST
Can't be right..... 
Like eagle said, alot of them are really doing jobs that S'poreans themselves doesn't want to do..... Look at the Shipping indus..... Govt is having such a hard time getting S'poreans into the marine, ship building/repair, oil rig, cargo shipping.... etc. Most of such jobs are dirty & dangerous.... and would take you far from home (working onboard cargo ships).... and this are well paying jobs some more.
But S'poreans only like 5 days work from 9 to 5.... Aircon is a must have.
A good 75% of all bus drivers in S'pore (SBS, SMRT... etc) are from Malaysia..... Why
Because S'porean no longer willing to work long hours for a lower pay..... and having to work in the weekends and holidays. And we wonder why we import so many FT......Anyone not happy here could always follows fishbuff example..... Migrate ASAP. Became FT in another country.
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It’s true that not many Singaporeans like to work in the maritime sector. It’s also true that these are not high paying jobs and the work is dangerous. Foreign workers in this sector also bemoan that their lives just revolved in the shipyards. The hours are so long that they hardly get sufficient rest and have a normal life. They just work for as long as they can and just wait for something better to come up.
No doubt the better educated foreigners can earn between 3K and 6K a month but why become a struggling middle-class Singapore citizen when the salaries they earn here can let them afford a luxurious life back home?
How many jobs were created in the unpopular maritime and public transportation sectors that the Singapore govt need to import foreigners to fill them? Certainly not more than one million vacancies.
If Singaporeans shun the dirty, dangerous and low paying jobs, why is it that the jobs that are favoured by the Singaporeans are not 100% filled by the Singaporeans themselves?
It’s stupid to have policies to drive the disenchanted Singaporeans to leave the country because no country can rely upon foreigners for national security.
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one simple question about these jobs that u mentioned which singaporeans are shunning from; "if it is given to you, will you work in it?"
we lament how singaporeans are choosy, picky blah blah blah... but whatabout the condition of these jobs? majority of these blue collar employers dont provide a worker friendly place, dont expect an average decent singaporean to accept it. would anyone in their right mind to accept a 60 hours work week, 1 day off in 2 weeks for $800/mth? that is not decent work employment, it is slavery!
why singapore allows employers to underquote salaries, neglect working conditions in these labour intensive environments; marine, construction, because of finance bottomline. SG society have been conditioned to perform and suppressed rewards in the light of benefits of few at the top.
i stand with the underdogs. not for the top guys.
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Originally posted by fishbuff:
one simple question about these jobs that u mentioned which singaporeans are shunning from; "if it is given to you, will you work in it?"
fishbuff, I think the more appropriate question is, if you dont have a choice, will you take it?
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
It’s true that not many Singaporeans like to work in the maritime sector. It’s also true that these are not high paying jobs and the work is dangerous. Foreign workers in this sector also bemoan that their lives just revolved in the shipyards. The hours are so long that they hardly get sufficient rest and have a normal life. They just work for as long as they can and just wait for something better to come up.
No doubt the better educated foreigners can earn between 3K and 6K a month but why become a struggling middle-class Singapore citizen when the salaries they earn here can let them afford a luxurious life back home?
How many jobs were created in the unpopular maritime and public transportation sectors that the Singapore govt need to import foreigners to fill them? Certainly not more than one million vacancies.
If Singaporeans shun the dirty, dangerous and low paying jobs, why is it that the jobs that are favoured by the Singaporeans are not 100% filled by the Singaporeans themselves?
It’s stupid to have policies to drive the disenchanted Singaporeans to leave the country because no country can rely upon foreigners for national security.
1) It is not only in the maritime and public transportation sectors that employs so many foreigners. There are many more occupations and circumstances, some of which I have listed above.
2) If there are 2.6million job vacancies with only 1 million plus Singaporean workers, how would you expect the jobs to be 100% filled by Singaporeans? Not to mention that the government is the largest employer in Singapore, and the largest employer of Singaporeans, with certain segments only employing Singaporeans.I hope everyone can distinguish the difference between foreign workers and PR workers in the statistics.
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This thread, IMHO.... is a issue that could never please everyone.....
Like eagle said - If 2 million jobs is created but only 1 million S'poreans around..... of course 1 million jobs will go to some FT or FW. Marine and transportation sector are one of the most 'Manpower' hungry indus that need alot of workers. But there are just too few S'poreans willing to work in those sector..... If they don't bring in FT & FW..... how would S'pore compete with other national that has a much bigger population.
Some service secter in S'pore had long complaint that S'poreans refusing to do jobs like sales..... sighting long hours and low pay. But if all sales personal all highly paid.... won't the cost of service now cost more
And would the avg S'porean be willing to pay more for such service just because a few S'porean are keeping their jobs instead of giving them to PRC workers.... If S11, kopitiam... etc starts to only employ S'poreans dish cleaner at higher cost, but will pass the cost to you, would you accept the extra charges Sadly there are just no 'ONE' solution to FT & FW question......
On one hand..... they DO take away jobs from S'poreans (both High & Low end jobs).
On the other hand.... they also do work that MOST S'poreans shunt.... (dirty, long hours, low pay... etc) and in doing so..... keep certain cost down.
Love them or hate them, FT & FW are here to stay..... If you are really unhappy about it, you could always go be a FT or FW in another country.
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Originally posted by TCH05:
fishbuff, I think the more appropriate question is, if you dont have a choice, will you take it?
indeed, SG society has neglected this.
but until the day that SG society starts to abandon its materialistic obssession and look at handling itself in a more humane way, im doubt the underdogs' lives will improve much.
i saw one karang guni man, although uneducated, shoved $50 to the old auntie who sold him the cardboards for her megre living. that scene put me to shame.
if an uneducated man can show such kindness and sympathy to this old lady, whats more of us educated singaporeans?
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I think bringing in FT to replace Singaporean workers has the side effect of wealth flowing out of Singapore if these workers repatriate wealth to family living overseas. The direct impact is that money flowing out of singapore means that while businesses may find their labor costs lowered, the market is depressed resulting in less local demand for goods. FT labor may be more suitable for goods that are make primarily for export purposes more then for goods produced for local consumption.
I think the government is trying to address this by encouraging the take up of PRs and citizenships but this still doesn't address the issue of such FTs who save up their money and use Singapore as a stepping stone to other countries where they take away with them their work experience and training, leaving Singapore with less wealth, fewer qualified/trained labor and overall worse off.
Such movements may also make the local economy unstable as the businesses set up to cater to this FT population ends up floundering because of the sudden shifts in market demands caused by influx and departure of migratory labor and such instability may create a domino effect to exacerbate any downward trends.
In the economic sense, as this is an economic policy, I'm more concerned with how this is being managed and how businesses that are involved in the creation of products for foreign markets are being monitored to anticipate such problems.
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This thread, IMHO.... is a issue that could never please everyone.....
Like eagle said - If 2 million jobs is created but only 1 million S'poreans around..... of course 1 million jobs will go to some FT or FW. Marine and transportation sector are one of the most 'Manpower' hungry indus that need alot of workers. But there are just too few S'poreans willing to work in those sector..... If they don't bring in FT & FW..... how would S'pore compete with other national that has a much bigger population.
By investing in business that is less reliant on labor and more reliant on the quality of labor.
Some service secter in S'pore had long complaint that S'poreans refusing to do jobs like sales..... sighting long hours and low pay. But if all sales personal all highly paid.... won't the cost of service now cost more
And would the avg S'porean be willing to pay more for such service just because a few S'porean are keeping their jobs instead of giving them to PRC workers.... If S11, kopitiam... etc starts to only employ S'poreans dish cleaner at higher cost, but will pass the cost to you, would you accept the extra charges Profit is a component of various costs, including salaries and taxes. for example lowering taxes may allow salaries to be increased without impact on bottom lines.
Sadly there are just no 'ONE' solution to FT & FW question......
On one hand..... they DO take away jobs from S'poreans (both High & Low end jobs).
They are not supposed to take away jobs, they are supposed to supplement the job forces so such positions are not left vacant due to a lack of labor.
On the other hand.... they also do work that MOST S'poreans shunt.... (dirty, long hours, low pay... etc) and in doing so..... keep certain cost down.
See comment above. Any industry that bids for labor in a market where there is a shortage of labor will find their cost of labor increasing. Some may resort to technology to make whatever labor they have access to more productive or lower other costs so as to meet the increased cost of labor without affecting bottom lines, eg find cheaper suppliers of other production materials etc. Profitability is not entirely labor related unless the business suffers limitations or is run by people with limitations.
Love them or hate them, FT & FW are here to stay..... If you are really unhappy about it, you could always go be a FT or FW in another country.
The second part of your conclusion does not logically follow from your earlier arguments.
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By investing in business that is less reliant on labor and more reliant on the quality of labor.
Profit is a component of various costs, including salaries and taxes. for example lowering taxes may allow salaries to be increased without impact on bottom lines.
Singapore has moved to from a more labour intensive country to one that is less labour intensive. Many of our once labour intensive has already moved to China.
However, some sectors still inevitably require human labour, and unfortunately for them, this human labour cost might be one of the main expenditure of such industries. Also, you can't expect "higher quality" construction workers or road sweepers in Singapore.
They are not supposed to take away jobs, they are supposed to supplement the job forces so such positions are not left vacant due to a lack of labor.
Agreed. But how are we to compare whether they "took away" jobs? It is a matter of survival of the fittest. For example IT jobs, if employers employ only Singaporeans when FTs could do it much better at perhaps the same or slightly cheaper rate, Singapore employers will be on the losing end. Such projects can easily be outsourced overseas, and the final result: Your job is still being "taken away" by foreigners. So, why not keep these foreigners here, let them do the jobs, with the effect of 1) extra spending into the economy, 2) creating more complement jobs for more people, 3) transfer of technical knowledge within the economy and 4) increasing the contacts and links between locals and foreigners with the effect of better communications and networking?
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By investing in business that is less reliant on labor and more reliant on the quality of labor
And do tell..... which business are these
You mean our marine indus, which is one of the best in the World, should be given up because it is labour intense And about ''Quality of Labor''...... isn't this why we are told times & times again to 'Upgrade' ourselves..... But which many of us didn't Profit is a component of various costs, including salaries and taxes. for example lowering taxes may allow salaries to be increased without impact on bottom lines.
Correct in a sense..... but may I ask where is the 20 billion for the new MRT lines coming from
Where are the money needed to support our Army, Navy, Airforce.... etc, coming from Lowing tax is easier to say then done. Without the 2% increase on the GST..... where is the Workfare coming from And like you suggested..... isn't a low salaries (which only FW will accept) one of the reason why locals refuse jobs that are consider 'Low Pay'...... They are not supposed to take away jobs, they are supposed to supplement the job forces so such positions are not left vacant due to a lack of labor.
See comment above. Any industry that bids for labor in a market where there is a shortage of labor will find their cost of labor increasing. Some may resort to technology to make whatever labor they have access to more productive or lower other costs so as to meet the increased cost of labor without affecting bottom lines, eg find cheaper suppliers of other production materials etc. Profitability is not entirely labor related unless the business suffers limitations or is run by people with limitations.
Are you suggesting that any business which require manpower in a suitation where manpower is in shortage, should close down
Yes..... technology & moving to places where labour is more accessable helps..... but isn't this one of the reason why we are unhappy that S'pore is lossing low end jobs to overseas countries....The second part of your conclusion does not logically follow from your earlier arguments.
My conclusion is simple...... don't like it here...... go, go asap..... if you expect some changes to come soon, then wait long long. If you can't go..... then accept S'pore as it is.