Do away greedy bankers and have a real economy lah!

• gartheven2000

  16 Feb 08, 10:18

  Dear Camb76,

  Thanks for ur informative contribution to this thread.

  You probably directed those harsh statements at Catknight. As anyone can see for themselves, Catknight made some proposals with a view to bettering society welfare and addressing injustice. For that reason alone, in my book at least, he is entitled to a respectful discussion. Kudos to Catknight for even caring enough to start this thread.

  I agree with practically all your points. Allow me to state an alternative POV, starting with some tenets.

  A) Your right that power corrupts and accumulates unto itself, to the detriment of society. This is true whenever there is power concentration, both for Govt and Corporation. Power pluralism is the key.

  B) Power pluralism means having diffused and independent centres of power, each of which, through robust mechanism, are eventually directly accountable to the people. In this US, this means civil rights group, labor union, church, media etc. 

  C) In today's capitalist society, money has great power. By extension, the national bank that regulates, creates and directs this money has great power too. If citizens are given ownership of this bank on an - equal, untradable and inalienable, contingent on citizenship, this monetary power is permanently transferred to the people. (i.e. the share of this bank, like a citizen's vote, is not tradable). This is an example of power pluralism.

  D) This "fifth" branch of power can effectively check even mega-corporations, the other "evil". These are unelected and unaccountable behemoths. However their intensive capital requirements and leveraged nature makes them vulnerable to banking power.  

  E) There will be a bi-yearly election for the board directors of the bank by the people. Citizens must be informed to make democracy work; this is not negotiable. Lets say in Singapore, if this were to be implemented: people might want to elect Tan Kay Lian,Leong Sze Hian, Ngiam Tong Dow etc. 

  F) All other banks can be privatized as per normal. The National Bank alone will ensure market competition so fierce it will make every other bank keep on the straight and narrow.

   

• Catknight

  16 Feb 08, 11:57

  I'm not against banks making investments ,what I do not agree is them having the power to create and issue money , charging usury like they do in FED reserve and in turn spillover to private banks

• Catknight

  16 Feb 08, 11:58

  How to apply Social Credit locally A simple system to exchange goods and services How you can open a local debt-free bank with the use of simple cards by Francois de Siebenthal The following is a lecture given by Mr. François de Siebenthal - an economist and Filipino Consul in Switzerland - at our headquarters in Rougemont, Quebec, Canada, in March, 2005. Mr. de Siebenthal demonstrated to those present on how easy it is to open a local bank with just the use of simple cards. Mr. de Siebenthal had gone to Madagascar with Mr. Marcel Lefebvre, to the Philippines with Mr. Melvin Sickler, and to Poland with Mr. Janusz Lewicki to explain this system to various interested audiences. In fact, Social Credit is no longer only a theory, but is put into practice in these countries, with local debt-free banks multiplying. In an age where the use of the microchip is becoming a real threat, this is certainly one way one could exchange one's goods and services without having to bow down to the use of this microchip. Why not read and study what knowledge Mr. de Siebenthal has on this subject. It could prove to be very useful in the future! A simple bank I will speak to you now just to teach you how to open a local bank with the Social Credit principles. It is very easy to do and everyone can do it. It was already done in past history, especially small banks in Switzerland. And those small banks, local banks, were done by farmers. The banker is a farmer, the bank is in a farm house, the customers are farmers, and the owners of the bank were and are farmers. These little banks, put all together, in Switzerland, make the third largest Swiss bank actually in operation with the best ratio and the best management because the costs are very low. Being the banks are very small and in small houses, and because you do not need big armour cars and security personnel, these banks are very efficient. These little banks can also be found in Austria and some other countries. The tragedy of debt money You know that money comes from debts with interest rates, and you know that all the theory of Social Credit is true, and that interest kills. The statistics of the International Labor Organization in Geneva state that every day you have 5,000 people dying at their work places. That makes more every day than the people who died in the Twin Towers. Every day! That means that because of capitalism and because of exaggeration in productivity, you have every day 5,000 people dying on the work place. And I do not count all the stress, all the psychological problems, the suicides, alcoholism, the drugs, the children at home without the parents because the father and the mother are both working. Now, with our system, you can imagine that a system without interest rates will save a lot of money. It will save at least three hours every day for each one of you, it will cut the prices by half, and it will give the houses 77% more space because the interest rates are taking a lot of productivity in the whole world. So now I am teaching you how to found a bank. These banks were already founded in Switzerland, in Madagascar, Africa, in the Philippines, in Poland, and in Canada. These banks have had such a success that now the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund are already attacking these banks. In the Philippines there are already attacks in the government and in the newspapers. That means this system is interesting and the forces in front of us are already attacking this kind of banking system. Where to start How do we make such a bank in a country? What we did first was to listen to the people. What are their real needs? What are the real needs in Madagascar? What needs, the real needs, the basic needs just to survive, because in most of those countries the people do not have enough to live. Then listening to them, we learn too the mentality of those people. We have to adapt to the culture and the local mentality. Social Credit is really the answer to the real needs, the basic needs of those poor countries. After having listened to the people, we tell them that we have something that can help them; it is not a magic wand that will give them paradise on earth, but it is a system that will guarantee each individual access to the basic necessities of life and allow the poorest countries to make use of their resources to help their own population. The main thing is to look for the Kingdom of Christ and His justice: "But seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things will be given you besides." (Matthew 6:33.) This is really what we are doing here with this local exchange system; we are dealing with justice, the justice of God. Work for justice, and everything else will follow!
• I-like-flings(m)

  16 Feb 08, 11:59

  do away with everything lah.. then u really have a real economy... barter trade anyone??

• Catknight

  16 Feb 08, 12:03

  To own a bank In my presentation to start a new bank, I say to the people: "So, do you want to be the owner of a bank? Yes? Who does not want to be the owner of a local bank? I assume that everyone wants to be the owner of a bank. You can be the owner of a bank, like we did in the Philippines, Madagascar, Switzerland, and in Poland. But to be the owner of a bank, this bank needs to have a management. This banks needs to have auditors. Then we need now to have people who are willing and ready to act as managers, and willing and ready to act as auditors. So now I ask you, who will volunteer to act as managers of the bank and auditors of the bank? I need at least three managers (a director, a secretary, and a treasurer) and two auditors (who verify once in a while the bookkeeping of the bank). Now, the people who are willing to be and to act as the management of this local bank owned by the local community, please come in front of the room." It was very interesting to see how many people were willing to act and to take the responsibility of running the bank. In Poland, we had so many people who came on the stage, it was just unbelievable. In the Philippines, too, a lot of people were volunteering to come in front to fill these positions. So be sure you have seats in front of the general assembly so the new managers and auditors will be able to sit down. It is the community that chooses the people who will be on the board of the bank, people they can trust and who have enough skills to do the job. In Madagascar, we established a bank in one of the poorest villages in the country, and now we are receiving nice reports signed by the management of the bank. They understood, and they took the responsibility of their new bank very seriously. To be the bank manager of the local bank is very easy: your only task is to be in charge of the bank ledger. There is no need for a safe, for bullet-proof windows and armoured trucks and armed bodyguards to carry the money, etc. The only thing you have to keep in your house is the bank ledger. The prices Now, at this stage, you have the general management, you have the auditors, and you have the general assembly. It is now important to put in writing the just prices for the basic goods and services of the area which will be decided by the general assembly. And to decide how to share the profits, because this bank can create money as any other bank. And this bank will create money to allocate investments for the production of goods. And the people, when they have a lot of pluses (money in) on their cards, can invest those pluses in projects, and those projects will give more production abundance. So it must be put in writing how the profits of this abundance will be distributed. This way the people will be more willing to share. In the Philippines, for example, the producer of rice, who understood very well this system, signed a contract to share 70% of the profits from the production of rice with the general assembly, and keep only 30% of the profits for himself. It was really astonishing for me to see that they would be so generous in sharing. A priest explained to me that when there is no interest charged, when there is no usury, the producers are very happy because, in those countries, usury can climb up to 1,000% per year. That makes 20% a week. And because we now have a local banking system without usury, without interest rates, everybody is happy, and everybody can share more. Now all this money will not go to the usurer who was doing nothing except taking 1,000% per year.
• Googlelian

  16 Feb 08, 16:17

  its known as the central banking conspiracy...

• Camb76

  18 Feb 08, 18:03

  I tried reading the post on Social Credit, to give the author his due, but I must say it is a jumble of confused thinking. What you describe sounds to me like a cooperative, where members pool their capital together to undertake a business, and share the resulting profits. Cooperatives are well known, are very widespread in the world, and do serve certain requirements. But they cannot replace large banks, whether public or private.

  First of all, it is claimed that these "social credit" institutions are prevalent in Switzerland and Canada. That may well be right, though I really don't know. However, the fact of the matter is that the largest banks in these 2 countries are private banks. UBS and Credit Suisse account for more than half of all bank deposits in Switzerland. The 6 largest Canadian banks - RBC, CIBC, TD, BNS, BM, NBC - account for nearly all banking assets in the country. Every one of these banks is listed on stock exchanges.

  The fact that private listed banks dominate the banking sectors in these 2 developed countries (I'm simply going to ignore Poland and Madagascar) should speak volumes about the economic merits of a "social credit" system.

  The biggest problem with "social credit" is that it cannot serve large financial demands. No cooperative in the world can provide loans in the tens of billions of dollars. Do you think industrialisation is cheap? I'm not talking about paying for a farmer's seeding needs, or an grocery store's working capital needs. It costs massive amounts of money to build a national highway system, semiconductor factories, oil refineries, dams, container ports etc. etc. Experience has shown that there are only 2 ways to furnish the necessary capital for economic development, either via government or private banks.

  Either way, whether through government banks or private banks, there is an unavoidable need to concentrate financial power in a few institutions. Like it or not, for better or for worse, not every person in society is qualified to evaluate credit risk, market risk, macroeconomic outlook etc. These are specialised skills. Therefore, it makes sense to concentrate these skills in the financial institutions that serve the financial needs of the economy. Consequently, one should never be surprised by the enormous (unavoidable) role played by banks in an economy, especially one that is developed or developing fast. It is not a question of whether we need banks or not. The fact is that banks are needed, unless the society is happy to remain agrarian with no wish for development. Show me a single developed country that did not rely on a large public or private banking sector!

• Camb76

  18 Feb 08, 18:38

  Dear gartheven,

  In my mind, the strength of an argument rests on its logic and practicality. Just because someone says mumbo-jumbo with good intentions, it remains mumbo-jumbo as far as I'm concerned. For example, Karl Marx, Lenin and Mao argued for communism out of an avowed goal of ridding the world of injustice and inequality. These good intentions do not excuse them from the moral (tens of millions dead in USSR and Maoist China) and economic (starvation even in N. Korea today) failures of communism. When advocating social and economic policy, logic and practicality are paramount.

  Now concerning your points, I agree with what you say about "power pluralism." I believe in democracy and think it is the best form of government, though I am also aware of its limitations.

  You like to cite the US experience. I lived in the US for many years, and continue to visit it regularly for business and leisure, so I can speak at length about its strengths and weaknesses.

  You say citizens must be educated to make democracy work. I fully agree, but I believe any reasonable person will also recognise that the citizenry are by and large uninterested in complicated social policy debates and are easily distracted. For example in the US, well-known economists and policymakers have argued for many years that the country faces an "entitlements" crisis because of the looming budget deficits caused by rising Medicare, Medisave and Social Security costs. But most voters don't really care, and most politicians don't want to alarm them too much. After all, who would vote for a candidate who proposes to raise taxes and cut welfare benefits?!

  You say we create a giant National Bank whose directors are voted in by the citizenry bi-annually. What if a slate of director candidates stand for election on a platform of a $5,000 interest-free loan to everyone, or any other implicit vote-buying schemes? Instead of outright bribery, how about a slate of director candidates promising a reduction in interest rates beyond what is economically viable, which implies future inflation? Are you confident that the citizenry will not vote for such candidates? Are you confident the citizenry will do what is best for the national interest, and put aside their own narrow interests time after time forever? Frankly I am not, and historical experience is on my side.

  People respond to incentives, and when you have created a "national banks with great power" it will serve to attract cunning people to it like bees to honey. Sooner or later, your national bank will fall into the hands of these cunning people who will exploit it for their own ends, while keeping the voters happy with cheap loans. This is in fact the experience of many public banks globally.

  Now, I don't understand why there is even a need to create a government-controlled facsimile of private corporations/banks in order to check their power. Every developed country has very strong regulatory agencies. These agencies such as the SEC in the US or the FSA in UK have significant powers to regulate and enforce large financial institutions. Why not raise these agencies' regulatory powers?

  Moreover, if you are concerned about income inequality, raise taxes then to distribute to the poor. There is no need to build up government banks or corporations which create their own set of problems.

   

• joshua182

  18 Feb 08, 19:29

  Central banks loan money to governments at interest. Every dollar bill is that amount+interest due. How is interest paid? By printing more money on the central bank's part. This system generates only one thing, which is debt. Woodrow Wilson who signed in the federal reserve act later came to regret it and remarkable parts of his speech included "nation controlled by its system of debt", "worst ruled, most completely controlled and dominated government". And you say they have no power? they have the power to start wars and keep them going. do you really believe the USA was incapable of bringing Vietnam to its knees? And that Iraq can never be resolved? No, thanks to iraq the usa had to print, or in fact, borrow 500billion dollars and counting. 

  quote: SEC in the US or the FSA in UK have significant powers to regulate and enforce large financial institutions?

  The central bank owns the government. The government owns and supervises these institutions. That's power.

• onlooker123

  18 Feb 08, 21:18

  Why did Gordon Brown have to nationalise some bank or some financial institution? 

• Catknight

  18 Feb 08, 22:17

  Look guys no sensible person in his right mind will swing to either socialism and even capitalism but distributism approved by the catholic church.

  It does not mean that it's a theocratic system but rather a christain economics doctrine that promotes social justice.

  When our govt gives us growth divideneds, this is a form of distributist way albeit a small one as our world economic system is structured along the lines austrian economics, it's a way of bringing back the guilds, clans and new urbanism to reconnect our humane way of life.

• Catknight

  18 Feb 08, 22:23

  Anyway it's too late the bankers have already won,,they have gained support in our politics and universities..our economic 101 textbooks praised their way of thinking..there's no best system in our temporal world however one must believe there is a better system for a fiat economy

• phil30k

  19 Feb 08, 11:54

  Let's face it, money is too intrenched in our culture. Short of a major holocast that wiped out 90% of the population, I don't foresee it ever leaving us.