emigrating to other countries
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Originally posted by weiqimun:
sgdiehard,
u assume PAP is the only driver in the car, without it, it is driverless. that is presumptious and a wrong analogy.
PAP did Singapore no favor by its "no tolerence, crush at all costs the opposition" mantra. when cracks do appear from within, and cracks will definitely appear, and shows itself to be incapable of governing, especially post-LKY, singapore will be left drifting. nothing lasts forever. not even PAP.
instead in engaging in meaningful debate and policy matter, opposition has no voice, or a negligible one. Singapore is often left with a one track mind of policy deployment. while not all are bad, singapore accounts itself very well in the last few decades, but its growth and maturity lags. it is so 1 dimensional.
If Singaporeans do not leave in droves, FTs will not be able to come in so freely. The MIW inadvertantly drive away the people whose blood and ties are entwinned in Singapore and replace them with those who come here to make a better living for themselves and holds no stake in the country.
Granted it is not easy to govern a country, but all that happened is due to a lack of an alternative political voice that gives the policy implementation a balanced view.
Touch wood, if Singapore spiral down next time due to some conservative, stiff technocrat who has a tunnel vision who is unresponsive to the country's needs, there will be very few who can come forward to perk the country up. Why so....many are already gone.
And when Singapore don't do well, you think the FT will remain, or tt employers can afford them?
Weiqimun,
We were talking about the scare tactics by LKY, suddenly you remind me that "cracks will definitely appear, and shows itself to be incapable of governing, especially post-LKY, singapore will be left drifting" is that also a scare tactic?
What was my presumption? A car cannot move driverless or there are no other drivers beside the PAP? A driverless car can only move on track, and crashes when the track ends. I certainly hope that there are other drivers besides LKY, LHL or even an alternative to PAP, but who are they? yes, yes, yes, the political situation need improvement, but will these people who were mentioned by LKY with high regards make a difference? NO.
They are going where they get better pay, they will stay in Singapore if they get better pay and better future in Singapore. Will they tell LKY that they are leaving because poltically Singapore is too one dimensional and they want their emigration to bring about a change in some policies in Singapore? They migrate because they lost their jobs to the FT, perhaps.
Mind you, LKY probably selected his next next generation of PAP leaders from among these kind of people, if they do deserve his high regards.
We need alternative voices, we need political changes in Singapore, and any significant step can only begin through election. We need people in Singapore to vote for what is best for the country. People who are waiting for changes to happen if not they would migrate have no place in shaping the future of Singapore. What stake do they have in Singapore compared to the FT? People whose blood and ties are entwinned in Singapore will not leave.
It is highly presumtious that only those are already gone were the only one who could perk the country up, or is that a scare tactics? Touch wood, if Singapore should spiral down next time, for whatever reason, it will be people who remains in Singapore who would perk the country up, elite or non elite. Those who left best serve their new countries well, at least show that they learned well growing up in singapore.
They leave when Singapore is doing well, why worry about FT who leave when Singapore did not do well?
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if post-LKY proved to be Singapore's downfall, it is no scare tactic. PAP brought it upon itself for tipping Sinkapore over the edge. This is a reality waiting to happen (unfortunately). Singapore politics is stifling at best.
Election in Singapore is a farce. Any forceful or credible opposition is `taken out'.
Your LKY this, LKY that, perceptively show who is running the show in sinkapore. LKY dun choose the leaders, he choose the lackeys. if he ask, "who's your daddy?", the so called leader will point it his way. if this is still a good thing in your opinion, i rest my case. i am better off watching paint dry than to engage u in any discussion.
Leaving Sinkapore is not purely an economic consideration. A general better and balanced lifestyle of living, less intimidating education system, etc. are also points to consider. There are equally many who are not as well off who left SGP for greener pastures. I know some of those who struggle overseas in the initial stages, but they maintain a positive outlook, willing to work hard and start up their life anew. many of whom i know are doing reasonably well now. Almost all will never want to set foot back in Singapore, other than short trips to visit relatives. Most still have sentiments to the country, but many do not share the glowing future the MIW paints. Or at least they are not part of the future as far as they see.
You lose the people who dare to stand up to the current administration, your probability of getting someone who can lead diminishes. Of course there are so many probables, leaders comes in all shapes and sizes, thoughts and ideals, but the ones that seems to have a place in singapore politics are as follow:
1. wear white,
2. know how to kowtow to a few, or 1 (as u imply) and
3. educationally potent (passion and servitude optional...great e.g. of folks who lack this inclde ex-transport man, yeo ct and current minister mah bt.)
Not everyone is all objective and unfeeling, even if you leave your a$$ abroad. you remember your roots and beginning. You implying tt these r`quitters' (to borrow a term by Ah Goh) is symptomatic of a person who draw a straight line of what is good and bad. By leaving, it doesn't mean those will disregard sinkapore's well being.
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Originally posted by weiqimun:
if post-LKY proved to be Singapore's downfall, it is no scare tactic. PAP brought it upon itself for tipping Sinkapore over the edge. This is a reality waiting to happen (unfortunately). Singapore politics is stifling at best.
Election in Singapore is a farce. Any forceful or credible opposition is `taken out'.
Your LKY this, LKY that, perceptively show who is running the show in sinkapore. LKY dun choose the leaders, he choose the lackeys. if he ask, "who's your daddy?", the so called leader will point it his way. if this is still a good thing in your opinion, i rest my case. i am better off watching paint dry than to engage u in any discussion.
Leaving Sinkapore is not purely an economic consideration. A general better and balanced lifestyle of living, less intimidating education system, etc. are also points to consider. There are equally many who are not as well off who left SGP for greener pastures. I know some of those who struggle overseas in the initial stages, but they maintain a positive outlook, willing to work hard and start up their life anew. many of whom i know are doing reasonably well now. Almost all will never want to set foot back in Singapore, other than short trips to visit relatives. Most still have sentiments to the country, but many do not share the glowing future the MIW paints. Or at least they are not part of the future as far as they see.
You lose the people who dare to stand up to the current administration, your probability of getting someone who can lead diminishes. Of course there are so many probables, leaders comes in all shapes and sizes, thoughts and ideals, but the ones that seems to have a place in singapore politics are as follow:
1. wear white,
2. know how to kowtow to a few, or 1 (as u imply) and
3. educationally potent (passion and servitude optional...great e.g. of folks who lack this inclde ex-transport man, yeo ct and current minister mah bt.)
Not everyone is all objective and unfeeling, even if you leave your a$$ abroad. you remember your roots and beginning. You implying tt these r`quitters' (to borrow a term by Ah Goh) is symptomatic of a person who draw a straight line of what is good and bad. By leaving, it doesn't mean those will disregard sinkapore's well being.
...BRAVO!!! Damn nice speech man! Well said!
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Originally posted by weiqimun:
if post-LKY proved to be Singapore's downfall, it is no scare tactic. PAP brought it upon itself for tipping Sinkapore over the edge. This is a reality waiting to happen (unfortunately). Singapore politics is stifling at best.
Election in Singapore is a farce. Any forceful or credible opposition is `taken out'.
Your LKY this, LKY that, perceptively show who is running the show in sinkapore. LKY dun choose the leaders, he choose the lackeys. if he ask, "who's your daddy?", the so called leader will point it his way. if this is still a good thing in your opinion, i rest my case. i am better off watching paint dry than to engage u in any discussion.
Leaving Sinkapore is not purely an economic consideration. A general better and balanced lifestyle of living, less intimidating education system, etc. are also points to consider. There are equally many who are not as well off who left SGP for greener pastures. I know some of those who struggle overseas in the initial stages, but they maintain a positive outlook, willing to work hard and start up their life anew. many of whom i know are doing reasonably well now. Almost all will never want to set foot back in Singapore, other than short trips to visit relatives. Most still have sentiments to the country, but many do not share the glowing future the MIW paints. Or at least they are not part of the future as far as they see.
You lose the people who dare to stand up to the current administration, your probability of getting someone who can lead diminishes. Of course there are so many probables, leaders comes in all shapes and sizes, thoughts and ideals, but the ones that seems to have a place in singapore politics are as follow:
1. wear white,
2. know how to kowtow to a few, or 1 (as u imply) and
3. educationally potent (passion and servitude optional...great e.g. of folks who lack this inclde ex-transport man, yeo ct and current minister mah bt.)
Not everyone is all objective and unfeeling, even if you leave your a$$ abroad. you remember your roots and beginning. You implying tt these r`quitters' (to borrow a term by Ah Goh) is symptomatic of a person who draw a straight line of what is good and bad. By leaving, it doesn't mean those will disregard sinkapore's well being.
If you don't want to engage me in any conversation, don't address your post specifically to me.
You think it is a reality waiting to happen that post LKY Singapore is a downfall? you really think Singapore is so dependent on LKY and PAP? but in another post you said it is presumptious to believe that PAP is the only driver of the car. If PAP falls other drivers would be ready to take over. Now which is which? make up your mind. Or you don't know what you are talking about.
Election in Singapore is a farce, you think Low Tia Kiang and Chiam See Thong were given the seats in the parliament out of courtesy from the PAP ? No, both of them worked hard, they won respect and got elected by the people of their constituencies. Given time, Low, Sylvia and their gang at the WP would make a difference. They are not earning millions dollars salary, and they don't migrate or move overseas.
You started talking about LKY's scare tactics but you couldn't elaborate on what you said, next time don't bring LKY into the topics if you cannot substantiate, even if he were your daddy!
People migrate for all kinds of reasons, it doesn't really concerns me. Just wish them best of luck. Others may think it is a loss to Singapore, especially the migrants themselves, I DON'T.
You dare to speak up against the administration then you don't migrate, Chee Soon Juan though doing in the wrong way, is well respected for he stays in Singapore and speak up against the adminstration.
Yes, leaders come in all shape and sizes. You have those in white and some in red, but those who are not here cannot be leaders, that you can take it to the bank.
I am definitely not all objective and unfeeling, I had tears coming to my eyes when I read "By leaving, it doesn't mean those will disregard sinkapore's well being.
"
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......
2 miserable token seats and you hail hallelujah. You are precisely the type to model citizen PAP wants. Feed you a little feed politically and you are a contented lot.
what have CST done in the 3(?) terms he's MP? LTK is only good at giving away bicycles as lucky draw at his constituency during LNY and Xmas party at void deck 332, Hougang Ave 5. If Sylvia wins the next time, then talk. It is precisely how masterful PAP has strelized credible oppositions tt you are left with folks like Dr Chee to carry the torch.
I would be laughing too if I were the MIW.
History is littered with LKY's nonsense abt how PAP is the only credible party to lead Sinkapore, without which you, sgdiehard, will die hard. I don't think i would like to waste time on you just becos you got plentiful of WHITE wool covering over your eyes. I got better things to do.
You are right, not all good ppl will leave, just as the opposite is true. Don't state the obvious.
And save your crocodile tears. It's smeared all over your posts.
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Some people emigrate out of Singapore recently because they are afraid of the "post-LKY" Singapore's doomsday scenario. In other words, they are the same people who are "mentally" dependent on LKY thats why they fear so much of the day without LKY and left.
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Originally posted by weiqimun:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......
2 miserable token seats and you hail hallelujah. You are precisely the type to model citizen PAP wants. Feed you a little feed politically and you are a contented lot.
what have CST done in the 3(?) terms he's MP? LTK is only good at giving away bicycles as lucky draw at his constituency during LNY and Xmas party at void deck 332, Hougang Ave 5. If Sylvia wins the next time, then talk. It is precisely how masterful PAP has strelized credible oppositions tt you are left with folks like Dr Chee to carry the torch.
I would be laughing too if I were the MIW.
History is littered with LKY's nonsense abt how PAP is the only credible party to lead Sinkapore, without which you, sgdiehard, will die hard. I don't think i would like to waste time on you just becos you got plentiful of WHITE wool covering over your eyes. I got better things to do.
You are right, not all good ppl will leave, just as the opposite is true. Don't state the obvious.
And save your crocodile tears. It's smeared all over your posts.
I thought I was going to just laugh it off instead of wasting time to respond to your post but there is one point I need to make to you, and people of your kind.Don't question what CST, LTK can do!
they prevented a clean sweep by the ruling party, they are the constant reminder to the PAP that some citizens of Singapore do not agree with them, they worked and are working very hard as opposition because their opponent is very strong, they are the beach head for the opposition forces, they are the opposition elected into the parliament....who are you to question and discredit them? unless you are under MIW payroll....or MIW have you for free..they are laughing.Were you at Hougang Ave 5 helping LTK? or you needed a bicycle?
Weiqimun, have you ever done anything to help the opposition?
People like you who stand by the side talking big theory about politics are no different from the ah peh at the coffee shop, in fact, the ah peh have better credibility. To think that we need to talk to you when Sylvia wins shows your utter arrogance and naivety.
When did I say "not all good people will leave"? Don't put words in my mouth.
Instead of coming here to show your stupidity, it is better for you start thinking what you can do to help the opposition in Singapore, whichever opposition, in whatever way, may be you can learn to be a worthy opposition.
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Originally posted by Daddy!!:
Some people emigrate out of Singapore recently because they are afraid of the "post-LKY" Singapore's doomsday scenario. In other words, they are the same people who are "mentally" dependent on LKY thats why they fear so much of the day without LKY and left.
But it doesn't mean they like LKY though. So with LKY they are fearful, no LKY they are doomed. Basically these people have no confidence in themselves. -
Originally posted by sgdiehard:
don't understand what you mean LKY want to scare u ppl. LKY never needed to scare ppl to justify anything he did.
If your profession is coffee tao qiu, you think you can get yr pr? It is easier to strike lottery.
LKY sensationalised that female Singaporeans will have to work in other countries as maids... -
Originally posted by Daddy!!:
Some people emigrate out of Singapore recently because they are afraid of the "post-LKY" Singapore's doomsday scenario. In other words, they are the same people who are "mentally" dependent on LKY thats why they fear so much of the day without LKY and left.
Where you get these information from? -
Originally posted by Daddy!!:
Some people emigrate out of Singapore recently because they are afraid of the "post-LKY" Singapore's doomsday scenario. In other words, they are the same people who are "mentally" dependent on LKY thats why they fear so much of the day without LKY and left.
I might come back into Singapore once it hits post PAP era.
I like old PAP guard like Dr Goh Keng Swee , Dr Toh Chin Chye and S. Ratjaratnam because they are the ones who made Singapore who she is now.
Just not the new ones who pay themselves millions per year to make crap policies.
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Singaporeans who want to migrate to Australia because it looks rosier , prepare yourself for the first two years .
If you think life is going to be a bed of roses once you land, think again. I don't want anyone who thinks that they can expect roses in Australia. Just stay in Singapore if you have that mindset.
First , you are coming to a foreign country who runs differently from Singapore and with a culture vastly different from Singapore. Do as the romans do. Whatever you do, do not freaking COMPARE Singapore to Australia when you are in Australia. That is the biggest faux pas you could ever make. Make an effort to learn the culture (but avoid the alcohol)
Second, you will be discriminated against in the sense of PR versus Australian in job hunts. Australians get priority unless they have a skill shortage. However your advantage is over those who have work permits, in terms of health, education subsidies and welfare (which you can only access after 2 years)
Third, don't expect to be served with a silver platter. Nothing worthwhile is easy to earn.
Fourth, people are also more outspoken in Australia and you have to learn to pick battles that you can win and stand your ground.
Fifth , friendly at work doesn't mean good friend irl. Keep it separate or else you are going to get backstabbed bad. At least in Singapore, Singaporeans show it on their facial expression who they don't like, unlike in Australia.
If life gets tough , don't freaking complain about how lousy life is in Australia to people other than Singaporeans. This is because :
1. A lot of us are doing well here. And people know where we come from.
2. Australians love Australia despite how they complain about it. If you ain't Australian, you don't have the right to criticise Australia in Australia .
3. Life is unfair , suck it up and move on, or stay in your own mess.
If you can't cope with change , what the hell are you doing in Australia?
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
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Originally posted by fymk:
Singaporeans who want to migrate to Australia because it looks rosier , prepare yourself for the first two years .
If you think life is going to be a bed of roses once you land, think again. I don't want anyone who thinks that they can expect roses in Australia. Just stay in Singapore if you have that mindset.
First , you are coming to a foreign country who runs differently from Singapore and with a culture vastly different from Singapore. Do as the romans do. Whatever you do, do not freaking COMPARE Singapore to Australia when you are in Australia. That is the biggest faux pas you could ever make. Make an effort to learn the culture (but avoid the alcohol)
Second, you will be discriminated against in the sense of PR versus Australian in job hunts. Australians get priority unless they have a skill shortage. However your advantage is over those who have work permits, in terms of health, education subsidies and welfare (which you can only access after 2 years)
Third, don't expect to be served with a silver platter. Nothing worthwhile is easy to earn.
Fourth, people are also more outspoken in Australia and you have to learn to pick battles that you can win and stand your ground.
Fifth , friendly at work doesn't mean good friend irl. Keep it separate or else you are going to get backstabbed bad. At least in Singapore, Singaporeans show it on their facial expression who they don't like, unlike in Australia.
If life gets tough , don't freaking complain about how lousy life is in Australia to people other than Singaporeans. This is because :
1. A lot of us are doing well here. And people know where we come from.
2. Australians love Australia despite how they complain about it. If you ain't Australian, you don't have the right to criticise Australia in Australia .
3. Life is unfair , suck it up and move on, or stay in your own mess.
If you can't cope with change , what the hell are you doing in Australia?
This is a very fair post. Such approach in life applies wherever we go.
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does anyone know the main underlying reason why Jim Rogers decided to settle in Singapore? Especially those who emigrated like fishbuff, i challenge any of you to provide the answer. If not, i am disappointed by your standard of knowledge.
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Originally posted by wheelcamp:
LKY sensationalised that female Singaporeans will have to work in other countries as maids...Like the day you got straight As in your O level, your teacher tells you, "if you didn't come to this school, you would have failed your O level." This isn't much of a threat to me.
Our parents had their choice but voted in the PAP. If PAP didn't win, Singapore would be different today but definitely not under water. LKY would probably be just another lawyer in town.
Our parents left China with little or no money, they were not maids in China, they didn't come to SEA to become maids, and they never will be maids, whether the country is ruled by the PAP or Suharto or Mahathir.
We don't have post PAP era in Singapore yet, but there is post Marcos era in the Phil, post Mahathir era in Malaysia, post Suharto era in Indonesia...what difference do we see? it is not who rule the country, it is who are the hardworking ones.
LKY used to advocate, or incline to approve polygamy in Singapore If Singaporean women did not have more babies to halt the decline in birth rate. I really don't think any woman actually quickly give birth before her husband is legally allowed to have another woman.
I don't understand why there are people catching cold when the old man sneezes.
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Originally posted by Daddy!!:
does anyone know the main underlying reason why Jim Rogers decided to settle in Singapore? Especially those who emigrated like fishbuff, i challenge any of you to provide the answer. If not, i am disappointed by your standard of knowledge.
u will get alot more disappointment in life than just meer forum arguments, boy.
i will answer u only when u can deadlift, bench or squat more than me. ;-)
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GO GO GO!!!!
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Those who wants to Go.... GO
Those who wants to Stay..... STAY It is as simple as that.....Brain Drain or No Brain Drain.... there just isn't a point to make someone stay if his/her heart is no longer here...... Today you offer them something..... tomorr they want something more..... when is this going to end
Those that wants to give up their Citizenship have already made up their mind..... no point at all to persuade them to change their mind..... might as well try to make new FT or PR feel at ease and consider S'pore as their new home.... let those who wants to go, go.
Better that more FT is with us..... at least we KNOW they are just here to make a living and don't give a Rat A*s about S'pore. Rather than FOOL ourselves that S'porean is willing to help built the National.
For every S'porean that leaves..... many more foreginer is willing to come and takeover. They might stay in the end.... or they might go..... but NO difference at all from those S'porean planning to LEAVE anyway.....
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Originally posted by hloc:
Those who wants to Go.... GO
Those who wants to Stay.....
STAY It is as simple as that.....Brain Drain or No Brain Drain.... there just isn't a point to make someone stay if his/her heart is no longer here...... Today you offer them something..... tomorr they want something more..... when is this going to end
Those that wants to give up their Citizenship have already made up their mind..... no point at all to persuade them to change their mind..... might as well try to make new FT or PR feel at ease and consider S'pore as their new home.... let those who wants to go, go.
Better that more FT is with us..... at least we KNOW they are just here to make a living and don't give a Rat A*s about S'pore. Rather than FOOL ourselves that S'porean is willing to help built the National.
For every S'porean that leaves..... many more foreginer is willing to come and takeover. They might stay in the end.... or they might go..... but NO difference at all from those S'porean planning to LEAVE anyway.....
Makes sense.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
don't understand what you mean LKY want to scare u ppl. LKY never needed to scare ppl to justify anything he did.
If your profession is coffee tao qiu, you think you can get yr pr? It is easier to strike lottery.
This quote is from LKY. "You know, the cure for all this talk is really a good dose of incompetent government. You get that alternative and you'll never put Singapore together again: Humpty Dumpty cannot be put together again... and your asset values will disappear, your apartment will be worth a fraction of what it is, your jobs will be in peril, your security will be at risk and our women will become maids in other people's countries, foreign workers." - Justifying million-dollar pay hike for Singapore ministers (Straits Times, 5 April 2007) -
you don't know because you are only an oracle certified IT guy. in today's world, bicep muscles count for much less.
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i am surprised that a fish can be that ignorant. the sad thing is that these fish(es) swam away not knowing, and think they know.
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MM Lee mentioned something like people who cant take stiff competition will migrate to Australia and Canada.
Do you guys agree?
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it is much better that you know and go, than you dont know and go, like a muscled fish.