A Letter to the Straits Times Forum ... Hear ! Hear ! ....
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Originally posted by eagle:
You still missed out the first point of: it is your achievements before entering uni that matters to them, and not after. The same goes for any other scholarships in any country, be it a public or private company scholarship.
Regarding your point:
wouldn't the money spent on these scholars be better spent on other subsidizing local students instead of giving a free cushioned ride for a growing number of "foreign talents"
Let's just say... if you had not had "great achievements" before entering uni, what bargaining chips do you have in an application? These foreign scholars had the bargaining chip; it is just whether they treasure it by contributing hard enough.Let's say you are a late bloomer, doing well only in uni... There are still many other scholarships around to apply; it is just whether you are aware of them.
That said, I still have to agree that not all foreign scholars are as good as they are made out to be. I'm confident of thrashing a great deal with ease, be it on the exam papers, at work, in the society or in life.
let's grant that they had very good results much better than the singaporeans (i doubt this too but for the sake of argument). Now, given so many that come in are actually worse than average. shouldn't there be moves to tighten the requirements? and for that matter if they are doing badly kick them out; put a condition of getting at least first class results. as for the foundation courses, it really depends. truth is they don't really need it for maths; just a matter of translation, a foundation course for maths won't help unless it's specially catered to chinese to english conversion. -
Originally posted by Fatum:
no wonder many chinese "scholars" look down on us and laugh at us ..... a society that treats foreigners better than it's own citizens doesn't get, nor deserve much respect ....
and this is not just happening in the universities as well .... I remember foreign chaps in poly getting subsidies for their studies as well, their bond is around 3 years I think ......
sigh... what to do? only the china chinese wants to come to SG. and our own people are migrating somewhere else... yes, no wonder they are laughing at us.
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I hope to leave this country.
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Originally posted by hisoka:
let's grant that they had very good results much better than the singaporeans (i doubt this too but for the sake of argument). Now, given so many that come in are actually worse than average. shouldn't there be moves to tighten the requirements? and for that matter if they are doing badly kick them out; put a condition of getting at least first class results. as for the foundation courses, it really depends. truth is they don't really need it for maths; just a matter of translation, a foundation course for maths won't help unless it's specially catered to chinese to english conversion.If they get between 3.5 to 4.0 for their score, it is extremely hard for them to find a job back in China, where there are a great number of people with better scores from better university. Most likely have to stay in Singapore to work for a long long time.
Also, if a foreign language is learned purely by translation, there's a limit you can enrich yourself in that area. Languages are to be used... so if foundation maths is taught to get them more used to using such terms during exams, it will definitely be more effective than merely teaching them the translations.
And at least in NUS engineering, most of these chaps are doing very well. No, most of the best results still come from Singaporeans for electrical engineering, but these chaps are not falling too far behind. I wouldn't want the requirements to be tightened too much too, if not they are forced to study even harder, and then competition for the top spot will be even higher. I rather they score 3.5 to 4.0, and let the Singaporeans take the 4.0 to 5.0 spots.
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Hmmmm, interesting topic. We can go on here forever without coming to a conclusion. Here's my two cents.
1. I heard from my PRC non-scholar friend that the PRC scholars who do come here are actually the "second grade" ones, who couldn't make it to the Big Chinese Unis like Beijing.
2. Those who do come already see sg as a stepping stone to the west from day one, so no surprise they leave.
3. From our limited perspective here, everything is going to hell.
4. The government knows what the hell is going on, when you get an opportunity, ask them, you'll be surprised. In reality there is a really big and complex plan in place, which even individual ministers don't have all the minute details to. However, when you do grill them they can come up with very convenient, but not widely known facts about policies and statistics to shut you up. I've heard "did you know the government spends 4 times more on a disabled kid in a special school than on the average kid?" when one of them was asked if the government was doing enough for the disabled.
5. You can never really know the true extent of what the government is doing. It's a huge bureaucracy.
6. Although you don't know the details of what they are doing, you can try to understand the spirit of what they do and sort of trust them to figure out the mess.
7. On Foreign talent and brain drain, one of them said: between making Singapore a free country and keeping talent, I would definitely go for making Singapore a free country. When these people leave, we won't stop them I hope they remember to say thank you, because it is precisely because they come from Singapore that they are in demand overseas. In the meantime, we must continue to nurture local talent, attract FT and keep the door open to Singaporeans who have left for overseas.
8. I respect the minister who said this, though i'm sure there are bad seeds in the government, at the very least i trust this fellow to make a difference.
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The taxes paid by these foreign students within their stint here, and including their 3 year bond, will exceed the amount of sponsorship for them I believe. Not to mention that their combined expenditure can create a multiplier effect possibly great enough to stimulate more growth in the economy.
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Originally posted by eagle:
The taxes paid by these foreign students within their stint here, and including their 3 year bond, will exceed the amount of sponsorship for them I believe. Not to mention that their combined expenditure can create a multiplier effect possibly great enough to stimulate more growth in the economy.
ermmmm .... locals don't pay taxes ? ... don't spend ? ... don't contribute ? ...
Their bond to Singapore is 6 years ... our roots are life-long, heck ! half of us spent 2.5 years defending this piece of land too ... and no, a few hundred dollar in CNY ang baos from budge surpluses is not a satisfying equalizer ...
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Originally posted by eagle:
I lazy to search for other polys, but I guess it should be the same for every poly since it comes from the government
"Non-Singaporean Students (Include Singapore PR and Foreign student)
In exchange for government subsidy received under tuition grant scheme, all non- Singaporean students are required to sign a tuitiongrant agreement in which they will be contractually obliged to work in Singapore for a minimum period of three years upon graduation."Quite obvious that you don't read the terms and conditions before signing contracts?
so any tom , dick , harry just sign and get government subsidy and work in singapore for 3 yrs? how bout the locals who sign up for the subsidy grant?
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Originally posted by 4getmenot:
so any tom , dick , harry just sign and get government subsidy and work in singapore for 3 yrs? how bout the locals who sign up for the subsidy grant?
They are free to work overseas. Nothing stopping them. There are quite a number of local students who do just that. Only Non Singaporeans will definitely have to work in a Singapore registered company for a minimum of 3 years if they take up the grant.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
ermmmm .... locals don't pay taxes ? ... don't spend ? ... don't contribute ? ...
Their bond to Singapore is 6 years ... our roots are life-long, heck ! half of us spent 2.5 years defending this piece of land too ... and no, a few hundred dollar in CNY ang baos from budge surpluses is not a satisfying equalizer ...
To the government, extra people means extra taxes. Locals are here to stay, or so they thought I believe, and hence there's no need to give extra efforts to keep them here. The taxes will still be paid.
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Originally posted by eagle:
To the government, extra people means extra taxes. Locals are here to stay, or so they thought I believe, and hence there's no need to give extra efforts to keep them here. The taxes will still be paid.
Then this is really sad isn't it ? ... if it really all boils down to economics ? ... that, since, to paraphrase our SM, we, are the "pah si buay chao" ones, who will stay on regardless, they don't have to "por" us as much ? ....
well ... they may be fretting only about the "1000 scholars" leaving yearly .... but to me, when the peasants, the farmers, the heartlanders, the average joe, are also starting to dream of leaving our shores ... then I think something more serious than an morale crisis is brewing, don't you think ? ....
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Originally posted by Fatum:
Then this is really sad isn't it ? ... if it really all boils down to economics ? ... that, since, to paraphrase our SM, we, are the "pah si buay chao" ones, who will stay on regardless, they don't have to "por" us as much ? ....
well ... they may be fretting only about the "1000 scholars" leaving yearly .... but to me, when the peasants, the farmers, the heartlanders, the average joe, are also starting to dream of leaving our shores ... then I think something more serious than an morale crisis is brewing, don't you think ? ....
In effect, this is what the government factored in for that grand plan of theirs: Singaporeans may whine and all but most won't rebel/leave
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Originally posted by DriftingGuy:
In effect, this is what the government factored in for that grand plan of theirs: Singaporeans may whine and all but most won't rebel/leave
Works to their advantage, those that leave are against them, therefore will add to the opposition's vote, once they leave opposition will have less supporters.
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Originally posted by DriftingGuy:
In effect, this is what the government factored in for that grand plan of theirs: Singaporeans may whine and all but most won't rebel/leave
agreed.
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Originally posted by 4getmenot:
so any tom , dick , harry just sign and get government subsidy and work in singapore for 3 yrs? how bout the locals who sign up for the subsidy grant?
man, if someone did give me some subsidy and a 3 years bond, i would gladly take it up. even a 10 years contract bond.
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NUS shld change name, since it really isnt serving the nation but rather serving PRCs.
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Originally posted by eagle:
If they get between 3.5 to 4.0 for their score, it is extremely hard for them to find a job back in China, where there are a great number of people with better scores from better university. Most likely have to stay in Singapore to work for a long long time.
Also, if a foreign language is learned purely by translation, there's a limit you can enrich yourself in that area. Languages are to be used... so if foundation maths is taught to get them more used to using such terms during exams, it will definitely be more effective than merely teaching them the translations.
And at least in NUS engineering, most of these chaps are doing very well. No, most of the best results still come from Singaporeans for electrical engineering, but these chaps are not falling too far behind. I wouldn't want the requirements to be tightened too much too, if not they are forced to study even harder, and then competition for the top spot will be even higher. I rather they score 3.5 to 4.0, and let the Singaporeans take the 4.0 to 5.0 spots.
No it will be more useful for them to just use the translations rather than do the foundation maths most of which is waste of time for them. But since we both aren't doing that let's just leave it as agree to disagree. The point of getting them in is because they are good. Otherwise why fund them at all. we do not need to fund average or lousy pple from other countries to come here and study so that they work here. We can use the fund to fund our our average and lousier singaporeans. If you need them in the labour force then just import them at the working stage or might even be better if we employ singaporeans in their place and replace the same singaporeans that were in the lower tier jobs with them. the whole idea of scholarships is about superior talent. -
Originally posted by Gnasher:
Hmmmm, interesting topic. We can go on here forever without coming to a conclusion. Here's my two cents.
1. I heard from my PRC non-scholar friend that the PRC scholars who do come here are actually the "second grade" ones, who couldn't make it to the Big Chinese Unis like Beijing.
2. Those who do come already see sg as a stepping stone to the west from day one, so no surprise they leave.
Precisely... c wat i told u. they cannot make it in their country, so come here n make a nuisance of themselves. how to b considered a talent when u cant even make it in ur own country, where ur own culture n language n watever crap factors r in place, where in ur own country u r given equal opportunities . example, i believe all chinese in china r equal from start, its jus how u create ur pwn path n future. so those who screw up, heng heng parents a bit rich, come s'pore! cos here in s'pore, foreigners r always given advantage when it comes to uni/sch admission, work etc. its really depressing that our ministers (PUI!) treat people who cant make it in their own country, who cant contribute to our country, as gold while 100% locals like u n me have to slog n slog, day in day out like nobody business so that we can compete wif those foreigners like crap. i really dont c how much they can contribute. cos their primary aim is simple from day 1 they landed here. earn as much as i can, save up n move back home 2 b king or move to another country. anything but stay here. heck they even dont hav 2 serve NS! wake up la! no foreigner will defend u in times of war.
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Singapore produces many graduates (including PRC scholars) who later aim to emigrate to Australia and USA. This shows how high the quality of Singapore's educational system. Yes, i prefer that Singapore is a gateway, an opportunity for PRC Chinese to have a chance to uplift themselves and then join the world. Go, Chinese, Go! Better to have many more PRC Chinese scholars to go to Australia and then climb up to be bosses there. The rest report to them.
By the way, just as a reminder, emigrants to other countries also received their education in Singapore.
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I have been very dissapointed at the way singapore has been treating ft compared to home grown talent. what type of a "free" country would like to give more oppertunity to foreign talent and NOT to locals.this is very dissapointing because we are the ones being forced to serve 2 years in national service and getting a petty pay and on top of that the benifts are going to the ft's. its a disgrace to us singaporeans. i can really feel waht the person wrote. i hope the relevent authorities take action and change the way they treat local talent are treated especially the financially deprived!!!
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let's not talk about uni 'foreign scholars' for now. since i am currently serving ns and just graduated from jc, i shall just talk about jc 'foreign scholars'.
i have seen more than my fair share of such FTs in JCs. admittedly, they are smart. yet, i wonder, why the heck are taxpayers' money being used to subsidise their high school education in singapore where they merely use singapore JCs as springboards to foreign universities (not a single foreign scholar i know in JC aims to go to singapore university so talk about raising singapore tertiary educational level standards is non-applicable)? somemore, they come here study and leave without having to serve ns. is it fair that our parents have to contribute money for these scholars and their sons as well to defend the nation while getting a few hundred dollars in return during a 'good year'? wouldnt the money be better spent helping to defray the rising education costs instead?
i am all for sourcing and paying for the best talents but it seems that we are merely being used as a transit point for these foreign talents while our local talents are ignored, feel disillusioned and leave. if we could take good care of our local talents, do we really need that many foreign talents in the first place?maybe at the end of the day, singapore is really what it has been historically, a transit point. just take a look at our port, our airport and now our schools.
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Originally posted by teraexa:
let's not talk about uni 'foreign scholars' for now. since i am currently serving ns and just graduated from jc, i shall just talk about jc 'foreign scholars'.
i have seen more than my fair share of such FTs in JCs. admittedly, they are smart. yet, i wonder, why the heck are taxpayers' money being used to subsidise their high school education in singapore where they merely use singapore JCs as springboards to foreign universities (not a single foreign scholar i know in JC aims to go to singapore university so talk about raising singapore tertiary educational level standards is non-applicable)? somemore, they come here study and leave without having to serve ns. is it fair that our parents have to contribute money for these scholars and their sons as well to defend the nation while getting a few hundred dollars in return during a 'good year'? wouldnt the money be better spent helping to defray the rising education costs instead?
i am all for sourcing and paying for the best talents but it seems that we are merely being used as a transit point for these foreign talents while our local talents are ignored, feel disillusioned and leave. if we could take good care of our local talents, do we really need that many foreign talents in the first place?maybe at the end of the day, singapore is really what it has been historically, a transit point. just take a look at our port, our airport and now our schools.
off topic here.
Hey Teraexa, when does your university course starts? July 2008?
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Originally posted by HyuugaNeji:
off topic here.
Hey Teraexa, when does your university course starts? July 2008?
july 2010. -
Thats because our ministers are scholars, so they like their own type be it foreign or local!
But its really disheartening, and the government can even start to wonder why singaporeans wanna migrate. sigh~
I'm quite surprised that our government allows themselves to lose money. 6 years bond is abit too little, should make it longer like at least 10 years. And hopefully they stay on after that to justify their talent classification.
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Originally posted by hisoka:
No it will be more useful for them to just use the translations rather than do the foundation maths most of which is waste of time for them. But since we both aren't doing that let's just leave it as agree to disagree. The point of getting them in is because they are good.Let's just say for this particular point, I did it for German before. So I can safely say it is more useful to have used the terms than to merely learn the translations.